Return to Transcripts main page


Dennis Rodman Loses It on Live TV; Cellmate: Lots Of "Vulgar" Talk From Jodi; Child In Diapers Being Groomed As `Gangster`

Aired January 7, 2014 - 21:00:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Dennis Rodman loses it on live TV.

DENNIS RODMAN, FORMER NBA PLAYER: No, no, no, (INAUDIBLE). No, (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I don`t give a rat`s ass what the hell you think. I`m saying to you, look at these guys here. Look at them!

PINSKY: What was that all about?

Plus, a nationwide exclusive. Jodi Arias` former cellmate speaks publicly to me for the first time about prison life and what really happened the night Travis Alexander was murdered.

Then, is this child in diapers being groomed to become a gangster? Ms. Ali is here and she will sound off.

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM radio Jenny Hutt.

Now, Jenny, coming up -- Jodi Arias` national exclusive, with her former cell mate. She will be here with us for an interview. I know you`ve got questions. I`ve got questions. It`s what I have heard so far.

Now, we are doing this live on television. I have only seen what our producers have told us about this woman, but it seems chilling what she`s got to say about Jodi. I guess it`s no surprise. For me, it`s kind of --


PINSKY: First up, Dennis Rodman, he loses it on live TV. He`s in North Korea with a few other former NBA stars to play basketball. The country obviously is a dictatorship. One of the worst human rights records in the world. It`s leader just executed his own uncle, and an American being held there against his will.

Watch as Rodman not only defending his trip but seemed to -- I think he was defending the imprisonment of the American. Take a look.


RODMAN: You got 10 guys here, 10 guys here. That left their families, left their families to help this country as a sports venture. Ten guys -- all of these guys here. Do anyone understand that?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We do and we appreciate that and wish them well with the cultural exchange.

RODMAN: No, no, no, (INAUDIBLE). I don`t give a rat`s ass what the hell you think. I`m saying to you, look at these guys here. Look at them!

CUOMO: Don`t use these guys as a shield for you, Dennis.

CHARLES SMITH, FORMER NBA PLAYER: Listen, listen, listen.

RODMAN: Shield, I got it, let me do this. Really? Really? I`m going to tell you one thing. People around the world, around the world do one thing. You are a guy behind a mic right now. We are the guys here doing another thing.

We are going to go back to America and take the abuse. Do you have to take the abuse that we are going to take? Do you, sir? Let me know. Are you going to take that abuse we`re all getting?


PINSKY: Let me some Dennis Rodman.

Joining us: Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, Jonny Loquasto, comedian, Jillian Barberie, social actor, and Greg Grunberg, actor in "Big Ass Spider" which dropped in stores today, right, Greg?

GREG GRUNBERG, ACTOR: Oh, yes. "Big Ass Spider" is --

PINSKY: And creator of the free mobile coupon app, Yowza. Greg, I go to you first, what is your reaction to Mr. Rodman today?

GRUNBERG: OK. This is too easy to make fun of. I think "SNL" is going to be incredible this week. Jay Ferrell is the happiest guy in the world.

But I got to tell you something -- I am ashamed to be an American. These guys are his former best friends. What are they doing? These are NBA basketball stars that are going over there.

Dennis Rodman should be ashamed of himself. This is ridiculous when you get down to it. He`s -- there are people in this country that are not eating and dying.

This is a terrible dictatorship. He has no business representing us and I hate him for this.

HUTT: Wow, wow.

PINSKY: Jillian, though. Those guys are getting paid a bunch. That`s money that could have been used to feed North Korea.


JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, listen, I so agree with that. I love live television for that aspect. You know, he got fired up. He dropped some bad words.

But as the great Howard Stern said this morning on his SiriusXM radio show, nothing good can come from this visit. It is a cultural visit but we are looking at a country that poo-poos culturalism of any sort. I thought Chris Cuomo was amazing today --

HUTT: Yes.

BARBERIE: And the fact that Dennis said at one point, oh, he is only 31. OK, I don`t care if he`s 31 or 51, he murdered his uncle and he`s holding American for reasons unknown to us, that he will not tell us. And Dennis is a foreign ambassador in a sense that he`s over there as his buddy.

Don`t mask it, you k now, behind your teammates that you are on this tour together. You know, go to other countries that don`t have dictatorships. Why must you go there and support that?

PINSKY: And a lot, Anahita, a lot of that sort of reaction that Dennis seemed to have was when Chris Cuomo brought up the issue of the American being held there for unclear reasons. The guy has been there for 14 months. He is in a hospital. He`s sick.

What do we make of all of that? Does Dennis not appreciate what`s going on here?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: I don`t think he does. Dr. Drew, I could barely make out half the things he was saying. He seemed so incoherent and, quite frankly, I don`t think he understands a lot of what he is saying. I don`t really think he understands the politics of what`s going on in North Korea.

And, yes, when he asked about that prisoner there, he sort of insinuated that he did something wrong, that he deserved to be in prison there, yet, he couldn`t articulate a complete sentence and explain why. I think what`s happening here is that, quite frankly, North Korea and Kim, they are using Dennis Rodman as a pawn here. They are using him to their advantage and he doesn`t get it. He doesn`t see it himself.

PINSKY: I`m going to show you guys. I like Dennis personally. And I have worked with him for a while in "Celebrity Rehab".

And I`m going to show you some things we discovered about his brain and how his brain functions that people need to appreciate. It will help you, Anahita, some of the stuff you`re talking about, in terms of how he was thinking and expressing himself, maybe that will become clearer.

I want you to watch Rodman explain why he made the trip to North Korea. Take a look.


RODMAN: Why North Korea? I love my friend. This is my friend.


PINSKY: Jonny, his friend is North Korean dictator is Kim Jong-un, the same guy who had his uncle eaten by dogs a few weeks ago.

JONNY LOQUASTO, COMEDIAN: Exactly. The guy had his uncle off a month ago. Should we be surprised that he is able to manipulate a retired NBA player who has diagnosed psychological issues, past drug problems, and can`t even keep a simple train of thought.

And also, for the NBA players that went with them, you know, there`s a reason they went, and it`s sad to admit this. But over a half of NBA players go bankrupt after retirement. It`s all about this. That`s why they`re there.

They can say all the nice things they want to. But it`s for money.

GRUNBERG: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Greg, you want to follow --


GRUNBRERG: Yes, these guys are getting paid, no question. And they`re alls just ignorant. I mean, they are sitting there. Can you imagine sitting there during that interview and all of a sudden, he starts mouthing off? He`s like -- you see him going, I got this, I got this.

PINSKY: Right. Hold me back, don`t hold me back.

SEDAGHATFAR: Don`t think any of them --

PINSKY: Jenny, did you talk to Chris today, Cuomo? I talk to him several times during the day. Do you have a chance to talk to him?

HUTT: I did have a chance --

PINSKY: He was bewildered by the whole thing. I got to tell you.

HUTT: I`m sure he was. It was bewildering to watch it.

But, Dr. Drew, what concerns me is why Dennis Rodman would be friends with Kim Jong-un. Is it just that he feels special? Like somebody likes me a lot and he is a dictator?

GRUNBERG: His only other friend is Dr. Drew. So, I don`t understand.

PINSKY: Well, I got to tell you, when I was with Dennis --

LOQUASTO: He`s a good friend to have.

PINSKY: Yes, it`s an interesting juxtaposition there, Greg. Thanks for pointing that out.

But the one thing when I first met Dennis, I was trying to get him engaged in group and he finally turns to me and he goes, he goes, we`ll have a relationship. I promise. We did. I got to know his mom. I got to know him.

He is an interesting fellow, Dennis. And I kind of understand how he got himself into this mess. But he goes -- the first thing he said to me was you need to understand something.

He goes, this is how the world works. You`ve got to understand this. There is God and then, there`s professional athletes. I thought, wow, this is going to be interesting.

So, probably, the dictator must be just under God with professional athletes. Perhaps that`s what`s going on.

GRUNBERG: Exactly.

LOQUASTO: So, is Michael Jordan right in between God and professional athletes then?

PINSKY: What`s that, Anahita?

BARBIERE: But, Dr. Drew, didn`t you think he was so -- the rest of the teammates --


SEDAGHATFAR: He loved the spot light. He holds himself as high as God or above God.

PINSKY: No, below. Just below. God is on top to be fair.

SEDAGHATFAR: Just below, that`s pretty high up, Dr. Drew. It is also a lot about him enjoying the limelight. He`s enjoying the publicity. If you look at his history, look at what he did when he was an NBA player. He was cross dressing. He was dyeing his hair blond and blue and purple and he was getting media attention. And that translates into dollars.


BARBERIE: He did marry one of the most beautiful women in the world.

PINSKY: I will show you guys what is going on in Dennis`s brain after the break.

But, Jonny, do you have any last thoughts for me?

LOQUASTO: Yes, I think to close up the segment, I would like to channel my inner David Caruso from "CSI Miami" here. Looks like this is one shot where Dennis Rodman won`t be able to rebound.


PINSKY: Next, the medical evidence to help you all understand what is going on with Mr. Rodman. I have the physician who worked with me and scanned Dennis`s brain. He`ll review the findings.

And later, we have exclusive interview coming up with Jodi Arias former cellmate who will talk about what it was like to share a tiny jail cell with the convicted murderer. I`m telling you. It is eye-opening and chilling. You do not want to miss it. Be right back.


PINSKY: Despite a court order sending Dennis to treatment for alcoholism, he was in denial. He resisted.

I want you to watch how he arrived to our "Celebrity Rehab" treatment program.


RODMAN: Try to help me, Dr. Drew. Try.

PINSKY: Dennis Rodman is going to be a difficult patient.

Not only does he frequently abuse a lot of alcohol, but he is in severe denial about the condition and resistant to the treatment process.

RODMAN: I don`t need this.


PINSKY: He was resistant but he came along a little bit during the course of treatment. Jenny is here. Of course, behavior bureau, Nikki DeLoach, actress from MTV`s "Awkward", Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, Jennifer Keitt, radio host and life coach, and Judy Ho, clinical psychologist.

You at home can join the discussion by tweeting us at @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.

Now, we have just been able to reach a woman whom I was interested to speak to about Dennis, it is his mom, Shirley Rodman.

Shirley, it`s great to speak with you again. Thank you for joining us. I was so interested to hear your reaction to what Dennis was up to in North Korea.


PINSKY: Can you hear me OK? Uh-oh.

S. RODMAN: I`m here.

PINSKY: I wanted to see if you can tell me your reaction to Dennis`s interview today and what he`s up to in North Korea.

S. RODMAN: I didn`t see the interview, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Has he talked to you about what is going on in North Korea and what he is doing and what his plan is?

S. RODMAN: No, he has not.

PINSKY: When you and I got together with him a few years ago, he promised me he was going to come and have Sunday dinner with you. Did he ever do that?

S. RODMAN: Dr. Drew, as I said before, since that interview, I have only seen Dennis once. And I have no problem with that. Please don`t feel like it is going to offend me. We do not communicate not because of lack of trying on my part but I do not know how to reach him. I can`t comment on his activities right now.

PINSKY: OK. All right. Listen, thank you for joining us. I just wanted to get in touch with you. You are always such a lovely woman. I know he loves you very much and I thought for sure he would be in your life a little bit. I`m sort of shocked that he is not.

S. RODMAN: I think he will be back.

PINSKY: Both of us thought so last time we talked. I don`t know. I`m disappointed that he is not and here he is in North Korea. I think he spent better -- time he better spent with you down there in Texas.

But, Shirley, thank you so much. I`ll check in with you again as the story unfolds, OK?

S. RODMAN: All righty.

PINSKY: All right, my dear. His mom is a lovely woman. She sat with us for hours. She loves her son. He just left and wasn`t coming back. It was really unclear why. Well, I`m going to give you all insight. This is the behavior bureau. I`m going to have you all listen to what I`m about to show and well tell me your thoughts on it.

While he was at celebrity rehab, I could tell there`s something neurological going on so I arranged a brain scan, so I could show Dennis what was going on and what the alcohol was doing to his brain.

So, take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFEID MALE: There is some evidence of alcohol damage. When we see this bumpy appearance I don`t like that. I would worry that you could get something like Alzheimer`s disease if you don`t do a better job of taking care of your brain. Alcoholic dementia is second most common cause of dementia in the country. The exciting thing is it can be better but without taking good care of it, this is going to deteriorate and get worse.

RODMAN: Doesn`t matter.


PINSKY: That`s what -- he just blew us off. And so, Dr. Amen, whom you saw right there, joins us now by the phone.

Dan, you know, not only did Dennis have the damage from the alcohol but temporal lobe dysfunction, parts of his brain sort of shut off. Can you help people understand what we saw in the brain scans to help them understand what is going on today in that interview in North Korea?

DR. DANIEL AMEN, PSYCHIATRIST (via telephone): Two very important things. So, he had that bumpy appearance which is generally due to some sort of toxic exposure, alcohol probably the most likely culprit. But underneath your temples and behind your eyes, his temporal lobes on both sides look very damaged to me. And that could have been from head trauma or some sort of toxin in the past.

PINSKY: And, Dan, if I could interrupt, he also had -- he also had hyper function on his frontal lobe. So, he was barely able to focus on things rebounding. He gets hyper-focused on stuff like Kim, you know, North Korea, those sorts of things. Yes.

AMEN: Right. When he gets a thought in his head he can`t let it go. But the problem, when you have temporal lobe problems, mood instability, irritability, temporal problems. And, you know, one of the things that we saw today. So, if your brain is not right you were not right. And unfortunately unless you rehabilitate it, that is exciting, people can if they get motivated for treatment, recover some of the damage that has been done.

PINSKY: But he`s got to first, you know, be willing to listen to information.

Dan, thank you very much for joining us. We`ll keep checking with you as the story the unfolds. Judy, does that make sense to you now?

JUDY HO, PSYCHIATRIST: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. The temporal damage, the temporal lobe damage is going to be contributing to things like personality dysfunction and even some problems organizing information that he sees and hears. So, I feel like that really illustrates what is going on in the interview because there are certain misperceptions that he seems to be having of people who might be judging him.

And, unfortunately, because he is a celebrity, I feel like so many people just go along with these delusions when they occur and they don`t check him. That`s right. So, I feel like that`s a part of it. And it sounds like he may have OCD as well because of that overactive frontal lobe.

PINSKY: That`s absolutely correct. That is absolutely correct. We were working on that.

Leann, does this make sense to you? You`re not my clinical person out here, but you sort of have been following Dennis for a long time. Can you kind of understand now the course of his career?

LEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, being a sportscaster, I actually, when I was at Fox Sports, I co-hosted a show where celebrity athletes did these daredevil stunts. And he -- my job was to cover him doing his stunt. And he drove a car off a cliff and he was tethered to it and had to jump out of a car and he came back and landed and hit his face up against the mountain. We rushed down -- this was on live television.

And even before then, before he hit his head, it was hard to have a conversation with him. He was very -- he would say things and you are kind of like what? But even afterwards, he was still talking like I`m fine, I`m fine. His face was crushed. They are trying to rush him to the hospital.

PINSKY: This is your fault, Leann. Is that what were saying. You caused Dennis`s problem.

TWEEDEN: No, what I`m saying is he was the same before he hit his head.

PINSKY: Well, no, I understand.

TWEEDEN: You have a conversation with him. There are signs of brilliance when you talk to him and then, all of a sudden, you`re like -- wait, a minute, what are you talking about, he is making no sense at all.

And I think it`s definitely a money issue. He is getting paid and his friends are getting paid, the only reason why he says his friend.

PINSKY: Yes. Nikki?

NIKKI DELOACH, ACTRESS: Well, for me, I mean, I look at the situation. It`s Dennis Rodman. I don`t -- you know, let`s not give the guy credibility. He`s not a diplomat. He is Dennis Rodman.

And at no point in time, did I think he was going to bring two countries together. Chris Cuomo asking him about the Kenneth Bae situation. I don`t want him talking to the North Korean dictator about something that is so serious.

So, for me, I look at it and go guys, he is not a diplomat. Let`s not expect more from this guy. He is a basketball player that`s going over there, whether his motivations were pure or not -- I don`t want him trying to bring the country together.

PINSKY: Jenny, Nikki has an interesting point. He could screw things up for that guy, as well as the --


HUTT: OK. Yes. But look I look at him as going over there and doing it for the money or because Kim Jong-un makes him feel good inside or whatever. But I hope as an American he would go over there and even though, it`s a terrible place and he shouldn`t be there, he`d represent us better.

And the fact he goes there and acts so aggressive towards one of us is just all so to me, sick to me.


JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I don`t think it advocates him at all. I don`t think he gets a pass because he has things going on inside of his brain. I think he needs Kim as much as Kim needs him. It seems like an arrangement they have. Dennis is being used and Dennis is using him and it`s just crazy. He`s inserting himself in a situation that he could do more harm than good here. And I really believe he needs --


PINSKY: Leann, did you hear when I said in the last block where Dennis told me that God was here and professional athletes are right here.

TWEEDEN: A lot of professional athletes think that and people feed into that, though. People paying them extreme amounts of money to come and show up at their place to -- you know, for large amounts of money that people can`t even make in a year.

KEITT: It`s sad.

PINSKY: Well, it makes sense that he would feel that specialness that he couldn`t get anywhere else except from God. Some sort of dictator, somebody that would really make him feel --

TWEEDEN: Exactly. And the sad part is you know he does not understand what is going on in North Korea. He has no idea. He can really mess things up.

KEITT: I agree.

PINSKY: And we know he has a brain disorder. That is what I want people to understand that poor Dennis has got some things -- he gets disorganized. He`s hyper-functioning. It`s OCD.

Judy, you get --

TWEEDEN: And alcoholism doesn`t help that.

HO: He needs intervention, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: If you heard -- his mom is awesome. If you heard Dr. Amen`s prediction of the future that he would have an Alzheimer`s-like syndrome eventually.

So, of this maybe that. It`s very complicated. I feel bad about the whole thing. I really do. I think it`s a mess and it`s a mess for everybody.

Thank you, guys.

Next up, my exclusive interview with Jodi Arias` former cellmate. She says being locked up with Jodi made her physically ill.

And later, Ms. Ali gives her take on whether police should be labeling an African-American toddler a thug. A toddler. Back after this.


PINSKY: Back with Jenny.

Now, what do you think it was like to share a jail cell with Jodi Arias? Like everyone knows, Jodi stabbed her ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander 29 times, slit his throat, shot him in the face. Her former cellmate is here for a nationwide exclusive.

But, first, let`s recap. Be careful now, this video contains some adult content. Take a look.


JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: I don`t know if I ate the banana first or if I took a shower first.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. But at some point, before or after the banana, you took a shower.


I love it when you grab my butt because it feels nice. But you only do it when you are trying to prove a point to somebody else.

TRAVIS ALEXANDER: That`s not true. You cannot say that I don`t work that booty.

ARIAS: Oh, never mind, you do know how to work the booty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What factors influence you having a memory problem?

ARIAS: Usually when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me, or someone like Travis doing the same.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, that`s memory problems, right?

ARIAS: It makes my brain scramble.

You just like woke me up by pulling my pants off.


ARIAS: I was so embarrassed because I had just got my Brazilian on.


PINSKY: Back with this. Anahita, Jonny, Jillian and Greg. Joining us, Shanna Hogan, she`s the author of "Picture Perfect."

Shanna, give us an update on what is going on with Jodi`s case these days.

SHANNA HOGAN, AUTHOR (via telephone): Yes. Thank you, Dr. Drew.

There was a closed door hearing last Friday. And although a retrial date is still not set, the prosecutor reportedly looking very satisfied while Jodi`s defense looked unhappy. Another hearing is next --

PINSKY: Oh, I think we lost Shanna. Sorry that we got that technical problem.

I want to bring in Casandra Collins. She had shared a tiny jail cell with Jodi before the trial started.

Casandra, thank you for joining us. My panel is sitting here listening. They`ll have questions for you, as well.

Give me sort of the basic sense of why you decided to tell the story and, secondly, what was it like.

CASANDRA COLLINS, JODI ARIAS`S CELLMATE (via telephone): I live with her in a jail cell from February 16th, 2012 to March 23rd, 2012, a total of 37 days. And it was a horrific, very traumatic and disturbing experience.

PINSKY: Why? What happened? What did she do? What happened?

COLLINS: Number one, she would talk about her case openly every day. He had 18 days. I had that double dose of it. I had 37 days of listening to Jodi talk in graphic detail about her case. And she made some very disturbing comments, has no remorse and then she made threats against key people in her case, as well.

PINSKY: Like she was going to hurt them?

COLLINS: Correct. Yes, sir.

PINSKY: And what is it she told you about the case?

COLLINS: She at the time pretrial, you know, before her trial started and even at that time, she was already confessing to myself and other inmates that she did kill and murderer Travis Alexander.

So, she was already admitting to committing the crime. But when she admitted that she committed the crime, she demonstrates no remorse whatsoever. She even bragged about it like it was a trophy killing.

PINSKY: I saw an interview that you did with someone that she said she should be given an award, she did this about herself, because she killed a child molester.

COLLINS: Yes, I can tell you her comments directly she said to me why she did this, because I asked her, and said, Jodi, why did you kill Mr. Travis Alexander? And she responded by saying she did the world a favor, that she ended the life of a pedophile, that she saved the lives of many innocent children that Travis would have victimized in the future. She claimed that Travis already victimized one child already.


COLLINS: And the jury would have sympathy for her and perceive her as a hero --


PINSKY: -- the panel has a chance to ask you some questions. Jenny, you have a question for Casandra?

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: I do. I just want to know, in jail, was she sexual or provocative? Did she have any hookups? What was she like in that way?

COLLINS: Yes, she was. She would talk very graphically and talk about the photographs (INAUDIBLE) found on the camera. She talked about each one of those photographs in graphic details and she talked about her own body parts.

PINSKY: Jonny, question? Johnny?

JONNY LOQUASTO, COMEDIAN: I do. Casandra, back to Travis. When you asked her why she killed him and she mentioned that he was a pedophile, did you ask her to go into further specifics or do you think that was just like a total sociopathic lie that she made up as to why she killed him?

COLLINS: I think it was a total lie. Anything she was saying to me I did not believe. None of it made sense. It didn`t even sound plausible to me.



GRUNBERG: Yes. I`m just curious. How do you answer critics, you know, like myself who say, you know, you were behind bars with her, too. You were in jail. Any testimony that I hear from somebody like yourself it`s suspect to me. It`s like -- I don`t quite understand -- yes.

PINSKY: Greg, I`m glad you brought that up, actually, because -- Casandra is actually a very highly trained nurse. And she -- what I`m going to ask you doing -- she`s been criticized on that exact front, right, Casandra? People have taken that up with you.

COLLINS: Yes, but I`m not a convicted felon. I have no felonies on my record. I`d never been -- jail and prison are different. Jail is where you go prior to your trial. I`ve never been to prison so I`m not a convicted felon. I do have misdemeanors on my record. And even six of those cases have been -- expunged from my record, but I am not a convicted felon. I have never hurt nor harmed a human being in my entire life.

PINSKY: But Casandra, my understand is people have said, oh, you have mental illness or something. You`re a criminal. Putting your nurse hat on, evaluating yourself, tell us what you do suffer from so people can eval -- we can evaluate whether it has somehow clouded the story you`re telling us.

COLLINS: Well, you mean what I get care and treatment for for myself?



COLLINS: Depression and anxiety. Those are my main issues that I suffered from.

PINSKY: So, it`s not as though you have delusional paranoias or something that would make you sort of confabulate stories, right?


PINSKY: OK. Greg, does that satisfy you at all --


No. It doesn`t satisfy me. I just don`t understand why, you know, she`s telling the story now.


COLLINS: I`ve actually been worked with a law enforcement. I actually started talking with the FBI from February 2013. Then Phoenix police started asking me questions. So, this did not come overnight.

PINSKY: Jillian.

JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Casandra, you know, I know that Jodi confessed she had something she talked obsessively about her attorney. I`m wondering now what you think that she should get as a sentence. She either gets death, life or, what, 25 years? What do you think will be the proper term for her to serve?

COLLINS: The death sentence.

PINSKY: And then Anahita.

COLLINS: Excuse me?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I just want to know was Jodi as confident -- yes. My question is, was Jodi as confident behind closed doors in her case as she showed herself to be like during the trial and in all of her media interviews? Did she ever express to you that she actually feared she could be convicted?

COLLINS: She truly believed when she was in the cell with me that she would walk out of the jail. She thinks the jury would find her innocent. Yes. She was that confident.

PINSKY: And Casandra, I understand, again, you said she made you feel sick and scared. I guess, I got to take a break, but I want to continue the conversation and I want you to tell us why -- what`s so disturbing? What you think -- I also understand you alleged that she`s caring (ph) on on the outside with her minion somehow. I want to hear more about that. So, we`ll be right back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you crying when you shooting him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t remember.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t remember.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about when you cut his throat? Were you crying then?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, take a look, then. You`re the one that did this, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re the same individual that lied about all of this, right?



PINSKY: Back with Jenny and Casandra Collins who shared a jail cell with Jodi Arias. Also bring in now in the "Behavior Bureau," Nikki, Leeann, Jennifer, and Judy. You can join the conversation right now by tweeting us at @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.

Judy, it seems that inmates were manipulated by Jodi and her lies. What do you make of that?

JUDY HO, PH.D., DR.JUDYHO.COM: Well, Dr. Drew, it feels to me like Jodi is actually creating her own little Jodi cult. She has so many characteristics of what we know to be cult leaders, you know, the extreme narcissism, really needing admiration and respect and loyalty from everybody, being hypersensitive to criticism. You know, all of these characteristics together just reminds me of some of the cult leaders of the past.

PINSKY: Really? Very interesting. Casandra, what do you make of that?

COLLINS: I totally agree, because she was very manipulative and very calculative when I lived with her. And she was trying to even -- from my nursing background, she even had a different version of what happened between her and Travis Alexander on that day. And then I heard a new version out her trial. She tried to claim with me she got a concussion -- how severe would a concussion have to be for her to have that type of memory loss.

PINSKY: I see. She`s trying to explain why she didn`t know what was going on. Back to the panel, I think you have questions for Casandra -- Nikki?

NIKKI DELOACH, ACTRESS, MV`S "AWKWARD": Yes, I do, actually. Hey, Casandra, did you go to law enforcement about Jodi`s threat to Juan Martinez?

COLLINS: I went to -- the FBI started -- did my initial interview in February of 2013 and then the rest of my communication with the FBI for Phoenix was through via e-mails. And then on July 1st, Sgt. Cane and Lt. Berkhose (ph) asked me questions about Jodi Arias. And Lt. Berkhose (ph) basically said, "Casandra, if she made any threat, you need to let us know."

PINSKY: OK. Jennifer, go ahead.

JENNIFER KEITT, RADIO HOST & LIFE COACH: I`m wondering, Casandra, you spent quite a bit of time with her. So, do you think that if she does not get the death penalty and ends up in jail, that she could actually somehow be rehabilitated? Do you think that that`s possible?

PINSKY: Or, to follow on that question, or will she be dangerous from jail?


COLLINS: I think she`d be dangerous from prison, because I think if she was put in maximum security general population, I think she would try to control that population. I think she is very dangerous. I think she would repeat her crime. She is very vindictive and hateful. She made threats against the prosecutor attorney. I believe she would try to carry out those threats. She is an extremely, extremely dangerous individual.

DELOACH: I have a follow up to that then, because you had mentioned that, you know, she had said to you, Casandra, at one point in time like -- that if you spoke out against her that she would come after you. And if you believe that she is that threatening then, you`re speaking out publicly against her now. Are you scared? I mean, why not speak to law enforcement and then just kind of go away from the public eye so that you keep yourself safe?

COLLINS: Yes, I am scared but I know I did the right and moral thing. I was in a position where I went to Troy Hayden because I felt that was a better choice that I have is to go public with it and expose it and make sure everyone`s well aware of what her threats were.

PINSKY: Leeann.

LEEANN TWEEDEN, @ LEEANNTWEEDEN: Casandra, thank you very much. It`s very courageous of you to come on the show tonight. I have a question for you. You had mentioned that everybody was sort of brainwashed by her, you included, but you kind of took it as, well, I`m going to go along with her just to shut everybody up. I mean, were there any girls, any inmates that did not like Jodi Arias?

COLLINS: No. I never liked Jodi Arias. I didn`t go a lot with her at all, because she tried to ask me to do numerous favors for her and I never complied. She tried to manipulate me by asking, you know, to be a mule and to get letters on the out for her -- you know, get them passed them to his deputies, and I would never do that. I told her flat-out no. So, no, I was not manipulated by her. I never --

TWEEDEN: What about all the other inmates? They were like holding up signs saying we love Jodi. She`s innocent. I mean, what do you make of that?

COLLINS: That was during the trial. And do you think, really, an inmate in jail is going to snitch on another inmate in front of a reporter? You know, snitches don`t last long in jail. So, i think that was all kind of for show.

PINSKY: Hang on a second --

HO: Casandra, I have a question for you --

PINSKY: You know what, I`m running out of time, guys. I got to remind everyone that we cannot independently confirm what Casandra is saying. These are her opinions alone. Jenny, you want to finish me up here.

HUTT: I did. I just want to know was she doing artwork while she was in jail? Like she said she was an artist.

COLLINS: Yes, she did. At least a drawing a week.

PINSKY: And then, she`s selling that stuff, right?

HUTT: Of course.

PINSKY: Crazy.


PINSKY: All right. Casandra, thank you so much. It`s interesting. It`s chilling. It`s kind of worse than I thought, actually. I mean, I like the way we opened this conversation with Judy`s framing her as a cult leader. It`s kind of an interesting way of thinking about her.

COLLINS: Yes. She would be more dangerous in general population. I truly believe Juan Martinez is doing absolutely the right thing. He knows what he`s doing.

PINSKY: Thank you so much, guys. Thank you, panel.

Next, a disturbing video of a young child cursing as adults bombard him with racial slurs. This whole thing has many people outraged but not for the reasons you might think. Miss Ali is going to join me to help me break this down. I`ll be right back.


PINSKY: Back with jenny. And Jenny, we have some interesting feedback on our Twitter feed. Let me throw one up there for you from someone who says -- "Judy Ho, interesting observation with Jodi Arias. Many cult leaders do have a chameleon like quality. They morph to fit the situation." Interesting. It`s a way of sort of thinking about Jodi that I had not gotten to yet.

HUTT: Sure. Well, she was known for being sort of that chameleon.

PINSKY: That chameleon. I always thought -- I thought more in terms of the emptiness and the borderline qualities, but there may be all manipulative element which I think people -- if you remember back when we were covering this, people really felt that about her, that she was --

HUTT: Yes.

PINSKY: -- that way. All right. Let`s bring in the "Behavior Bureau."

HUTT: Yes. Horrible.

PINSKY: All right. Let`s bring in the "Behavior Bureau," Leeann Tweeden, Jillian Barberie, Judy Ho, and by phone, Shahrazad Ali. She`s the author of "The Black Man`s Guide To Understanding The Black Women."

A local police organization is under fire tonight for posting a video of a toddler and labeling this video, "The Thug Cycle." At least three adults engaged the diaper wearing young little boy in profane and sexually explicit language. Again, we`re going to air this, but I want to warn you, it`s a disturbing video. So, let`s take a look.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You throwing a fit right now (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s why you can`t fight. (EXPLETIVE DELETED).



UNIDENTIFIED KID: You a ho, bitch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Say I need some (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I`m throwing a fit right now.



PINSKY: Jillian, you look upset by this.

BARBERIE: Well, you know, Dr. Drew. I have a little boy roughly the same age and you try to protect them from the world that`s out there that can be nasty and mean and this is straight up child abuse. I don`t care what color you are. It was wrong of the cops to label it that on there. But you have to know that the family members put this out on the internet.

The cops didn`t do it first. It was already out there. They were kind of proud of this behavior. And I just want to hold that child and hug him and say, you know, like, yes, life can be really rough but you shouldn`t be hearing this stuff right now. It breaks my heart.

PINSKY: Judy, is it sick or is it sad?

HO: Well, Dr. Drew, it`s both sick and sad, but I think this is a family that`s not very educated in how they should be taking care of children. I think that it`s rough though that the police called this out as the thug cycle, because I think that that brings in racial undertones. When do we use the term thug?

You know, it`s usually with the African-American population. And I don`t think that the police is actually doing anybody a favor because this is not really the route for us to really educate the public about how it is to take care of children --

PINSKY: Let me bring in my expert, Miss Shahrazad Ali. Miss Ali, your reaction to this video.

SHAHRAZAD ALI, AUTHOR: Well, I think that it`s just terrible. I think that the police have chosen just the worst examples to use as a type of propaganda to put out into the community that just fosters distrust and apprehends in Black children. If White people think that this is what Black children are being fed (ph) from the diaper age, then when they see them on the street when they`re 14 or 15, then of course, we all -- anybody would have apprehension if we think this is how they`ve been reared.

Now, let`s look at this. White children have been labeled generation X, the me, me, me generation. Well, in the Black community, we have the disconnected generation. We have children and young people who are raising babies who are the great grandchildren of the crack heads of the 1980s. Crack turned out to be -- listen to this, Dr. Drew. This is important for you and your studies.

When crack turned out to be a feminine drug, it disconnected and took the mother and the women out of the homes and away from their children. And so, what we have now is people trying to raise children who don`t have any standards, rules, regulations, any behavior codes about how to raise a baby. And so that`s why you can get three adults in a room and talk that kind of ignorance and filth to a baby because this is all they know.

They don`t have anything to look back on to remember. They don`t have anything to replace it with.

PINSKY: Miss Ali, hold your thought right there. I want to get more into this as we -- and bring this "Behavior Bureau" right back. Stay with us.


PINSKY: Back with Jenny and our "Behavior Bureau," Leeann, Jillian, and Judy. And we are looking at some disturbing video tonight of adults engaging a toddler in profane X-rated language. The police organization that posted the video is under fire for promoting racism.

The Omaha Police Officer Association posted the video with a statement that reads in part, quote, "We have an obligation to share it to educate the public about the terrible cycle of violence and thuggery that some young innocent children find themselves helplessly trapped within."

Local media reports say the Omaha Police Department has contacted child protected services. Leeann, you have a young boy at home. I haven`t heard your thoughts yet. Go ahead.

TWEEDEN: You know, when you all first sent us the story, I thought, at first, it was very sad for the child. No child should be taught that especially at a young age. And you saw how the child was responding back with his own comments that were vial and vulgar which obviously he`s already been conditioned to speak like that which is very, very sad and tragic, because what project -- you know, how is that kid going to get on in life.

You check in with him later he probably, you know, is, you know, going to end up in the jail system or whatever. But my point is, it was sick for three adults to sit there and videotape it, upload it. They must think it`s funny. But, I have a question for the police department. They even admitted that there was nothing -- they didn`t break the law.

The parents of these children or the aunts and uncles or whoever they were did not break the law in posting and talking to their child like that. So, what was really the point? Are they insighting that racial problems in Oklahoma? Is that what they want out of this? I mean, really, what are they getting out of this besides, quote/unquote "saying we just want everybody to know that this is what`s happening in our community?"

BARBERIE: Isn`t bad parenting, bad parenting? I want to see what`s out there. I want to know what`s out there. I don`t care what color you are. Bad parenting is bad parenting. They didn`t post it. The police didn`t. They just reposted something that was already out there.


PINSKY: Let`s take it back to what Ms. Ali was telling us, though, was that she -- Miss Ali, this is another way of what you`ve called the Black holocaust, right? This is another sort of -- body shot where people don`t get attached to their parents and then don`t attach to their kids.

ALI: That`s right. I also think that the police since they feel so obligated to show things, I think they also have an obligation to show all of their cases of police brutality against Black young people. They ought to put that up there and use that as (INAUDIBLE) service. But the other thing is part of this kind of destructive parenting is a lot of times blamed on poverty.

You know, we say, oh you know, if they have money, if they have jobs or whatever, but that`s not entirely true, because during the 30s and 40s and 50s as Black people in this country, we had to not only deal with poverty, we had to deal with segregation and all types of things. We had more Black people in college.

We own more Black businesses. We were not filling up the jails. We were not killing each other. And so, poverty is not the only reason for this kind of behavior. So, once again, I`d say, it`s just due to a lack of any training about how to maintain and create a civilized society with our children.


TWEEDEN: So, Miss Ali, how do you think we can change this?

ALI: Well, that change has to start back with us having -- I keep saying, nobody wants to deal with these issues because nobody wants to acknowledge right and wrong. We have to have parenting classes. We have to teach mothers how to parent.

When I had my children, the nurse would come out to the house and make sure you had a bed for your child, make sure you had a clean home, you had a place to sterilize bottles and everything. They don`t do any of that now. You take your baby home, you can do whatever the hell you want to do with it and that is exactly what they do.

PINSKY: Good conversation. I`ve got to go, but thank you, Miss Ali. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: It`s time for the "Last Call," and it`s to you, jenny. You were noticed by Andy Cohen from "Bravo" Fame. Here`s his tweet, why does that lady wear sequins on your show, Dr. Drew?" So, Jenny, this is your chance. You get 10 seconds to respond.

HUTT: I know. I love sparkles, they make me smile. But then he tweeted that I looked good. So, I`m happy. It`s all OK.


PINSKY: I hope that satisfies you, Andy. Hope to see you soon. "What Would You Do?" follows us and it starts right now.


ANNOUNCER: Hidden cameras, on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on "What Would You Do?" on HLN.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mommy`s going to be gone two hours.

UNIDENTIFIED KID: What if we get scared?