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Brain-Dead Girl Improving?; Christie: "I Am Embarrassed & Humiliated"
Aired January 9, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, scandal in New Jersey.
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: I am embarrassed and humiliated.
PINSKY: Real life betrayal.
CHRISTIE: I was blindsided yesterday morning.
PINSKY: And revenge.
CHRISTIE: So stupid. So deceitful. I am stunned.
PINSKY: The behavior bureau thought they`d seen everything until now.
Plus, what was Dennis Rodman thinking? He`s here to tell us.
And death by atomic wedgie. Dr. Bill Lloyd shows us how it could happen.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening.
My cost host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio`s Jenny Hutt.
Coming up, the bombshell that`s rocking the New Jersey governor`s office.
But first, news tonight on the 13-year-old girl declared brain dead following complications from a tonsil procedure, declared brain dead. That is a state of death. The family attorney, however, says her condition is, Jenny, improving.
Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: There have been at least three doctors and a judge have declared Jahi McMath brain dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As long as my niece`s heart is still beating, she`s alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brain death is death. This poor child is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The lawyer for the brain-dead girl`s family say that she`s improving after receiving two procedures.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a pediatrician who has seen Jahi, who has sworn that she is not dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And to have outsiders come in and try to exploit what`s going on here is just appalling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She responds to audio and touch, and more compelling evidence is the fact that she can move her head and neck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they choose to keep her alive by any means that they`re able to, God be with them.
PINSKY: It is cruel to keep somebody needlessly going.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the fact. There is nothing further to be done for her.
PINSKY: We don`t continue to give care that is fruitless. We don`t, we can`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jahi is a very sweet girl. She was very shy. And she smiled all the time.
PINSKY: Anahita Sedaghatfar joins us, criminal defense attorney. Also, Segun Oduolowu, social commentator. Jillian Barberie, TV personality. And HLN anchor, Lynn Berry, back for the New Year.
Lynn, good to see you.
LYNN BERRY, HLN ANCHOR: Happy New Year.
PINSKY: What is the latest? Happy New Year.
BERRY: Listen, the latest -- happy New Year.
Listen, the latest is that the family lawyer saying that she`s stabilizing and her condition is improving. Now, I would ask anyone at home to consider the source and I mean that in no ill way towards the family. I understand that they are heartbroken and they want this to be true, but this is a family attorney, and CNN cannot confirm what he is saying. We`re not hearing from the so-called doctors that he`s speaking of.
And when he says improving we don`t know what terms. When someone is brain dead they will appear to be breathing because air is being pumped into their lungs. They will have muscle reflexes that may appear that they`re responding to touch, but that`s body reflex. That is not the brain working.
Brain dead means just that. And the question then becomes, can a dead brain come back to life by some miracle?
And, Dr. Drew, maybe you can give some context to that. But I guarantee, any doctor you ask in a major hospital will say no, that is not true. That`s why a judge sided with the hospital in declaring her brain dead and why a coroner has declared her dead.
PINSKY: Doctors declare people dead, that`s what we do all through our career. Has anybody heard of anyone coming back from death? Is anyone aware of a dead person coming back to life?
JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: No, but Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: You want the make the case there was one 2,000 years ago, OK, that`s a case to be made. But since then no one has brought back from the dead! It has not happened and brain dead and death are equivalent?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Dr. Drew, come on, in all fairness, Dr. Drew, you`re absolutely right. I`m a logical person. You`re on the side of reason. And that`s fine. But we`re talking about the life of 12-year-old, what remains of it, and her family.
I just choose in this case to be on the side of angels and allow for the possibility of miracles. It may never happen. But why not believe? Why not believe?
Why not allow her family to deal with it in their own time? What`s so wrong with that? It`s her family.
PINSKY: Anahita, go ahead.
BARBERIE: I would be on the side of the family in this.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: There`s nothing -- Dr. Drew, there`s nothing wrong with believing in miracles, but that`s really just dreaming. And, you know, I`m conflicted -- I`m totally conflicted because, of course, this is heart-wrenching.
On the one hand, all the doctors, the courts, everyone has declared this little girl dead. I mean, there`s no way -- no medicine, no waiting, no time, no miracles going to happen that`s going to change anything. But, yes, you know, on the other hand, she does have a family. It`s hard. How can any family decide to pull the plug on someone especially when you`re a little girl?
And the reason why --
PINSKY: That is why physicians help people through these things to make the right and the ethical decisions. So, they can -- rather than being stuck in limbo of misery where they believe the child is alive, they can actually get on with their grieving.
And, by the way, the $10,000 a day to keep her alive can be spent on people who could survive their illnesses. This is not ethical. This is destructive to the family. It is destructive to the system.
It`s not okay to do this kind of thing, and the attorneys that are defending this.
PINSKY: Lynn, go ahead.
BERRY: I understand the family`s instinct. If it were my family member, I would pay any amount of money in my heart to want to keep them alive. I wouldn`t want a logical person to speak to my head and my brain to tell me this is unethical.
PINSKY: Lynn, at a certain point, right --
BERRY: That lawyer is the one we should be furious at --
PINSKY: Absolutely. Absolutely. And by the way, I guarantee you --
SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely not, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: -- doctors who would do the procedures on --
BERRY: -- random phone book to say anything.
PINSKY: No, but they`re not saying she`s --
ODUOLOWU: Lawyers, doctors --
PINSKY: -- improving not that she`s coming back to life or her brain is waking up because that cannot happen. Her improvement is that her cardiovascular status -- she`s what we call a cardio pulmonary prep.
You can keep a cardio pulmonary system going on machines almost eternally. You can do that. Is that ethical? Is that OK?
And, Jillian, that`s the difference between brain dead and death. You can turn a dead person into a physiological prep where you put tubes into them and keep them going indefinitely. Is that OK? Do any of you want to be treated that way?
I -- if there`s coming back from dead, I hope you come back and haunt me if I did that to you.
BARBERIE: I understand that. And I`m saying, I am on the side of the family. I understand it fires you up and I`m going to piss you off by saying this.
Her heart is still beating, she`s still alive. I don`t understand where brain dead equals death. I`m sorry, if her heart is beating.
PINSKY: OK, let me say -- what if I could keep some other part of her body tissue alive forever, forever, but at tremendous expense.
ODUOLOWU: No, wait, that`s unfair, Dr. Drew. Let`s not talk in the abstract.
ODUOLOWU: Let`s be real about it for a second. Who are we in the peanut gallery to tell a family what they should do with the body or life or whatever quality of life they want to do with this child? It`s not for us to say.
And all I`m saying is you might be absolutely right, but 500 years ago, they used to bleed their patients. And they used to think that lunacy was caused by the waves of the moon. It`s not fair to say that things cannot --
PINSKY: And, Segun, cases like this, cases like this, guys, will be presented the same way those leeches are thought about today. The fact that somebody allowed this to happen to somebody is so cruel and so inappropriate, that this is what they`ll point at.
Jenny, I know you`ve been trying to get in here. What did you want to say?
HUTT: Yes. I just want to say. First of all, Dr. Drew, I agree with you completely. What I don`t understand from the panel is why is everyone on the side of the family, I`m on the side of the doctor, where is the side? This is a child who is brain dead, which means her body cannot function, right, Dr. Drew, but for the mechanicals that are causing her heart to beat.
PINSKY: And it will never, never be able to come off of these machines.
PINSKY: That will never happen because her brain is dead so she can`t breathe on her own. To be on the side of the family is to be caretaking with this family and to get them into the grieving process in a way that`s healthy and appropriate and help them deal with the fact of what --
PINSKY: Because they`re not ready to deal with it -- to get them there. That is the side of the family. For the people that are responsible to take care of them, to get them to the place where they can acknowledge these things, then in a caretaking way go through some sort of a ritual or procedure with them to allow them to say good-bye to what remains of this person who is no longer with us and will never be with us again. It`s an unfortunate reality.
Life is harsh. Being a biological system, which we all are, is something we have to each contend with. There are no miracles. Nobody is coming back to life after death.
One person might have done that. We made a special show of that person, right? There`s no one since then.
ODUOLOWU: I love that we don`t allow for the possibility of miracles, Dr. Drew. There are unexplained miracles in the medical profession.
PINSKY: Not this one. This one has never happened ever. So, there are situations where we go, it would take a miracle for her to recover and they recover, that happens. This, there`s no possibility of even a miracle.
Up next, the star of the reality show "Jerseylicious" sounds of Dennis Rodman is apologizing for what he now admits may have be an alcohol-fueled outburst on CNN, to give you his apology.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt.
Jenny, I want to show you a tweet referring back to the discussion of the brain-dead young girl. It is from Deirdre Wilson. "Miracles have happened. Check out Anita Moorjani that came back from death and wrote a book about it with medical documentation."
And this is the kind of stuff that makes me insane, because that is not somebody coming back from brain death. That is somebody coming back from their heart having stopped for a few minutes. That`s a kind of a death, that`s not brain death.
Brain death is absolute death from which there is no recovery under any circumstances. That`s why it`s qualified as such.
Jenny, what did you want to say?
HUTT: I agree with you completely. To me the brain is like the computer of our bodies. If it`s not, if it`s gone, it`s over. That`s it.
PINSKY: It doesn`t come back. Neural tissue doesn`t come back.
New Jersey Governor Chris Christie -- let`s get on to that -- he spent over 108 minutes today apologizing and trying to distance himself from this exploding scandal.
Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The back story is the traffic was snarled, just nightmarish for a lot of people for four days when lanes entering the bridge that connects Manhattan to Ft. Lee, New Jersey, they were closed.
CHRISTIE: I come out here today to apologize to the people of New Jersey. I apologize to the people of Ft. Lee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He feels it in his soul that he didn`t do anything wrong.
CHRISTIE: I had no knowledge or involvement. I was blindsided. I am embarrassed and humiliated. I had no knowledge or involvement in this issue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know if I believe him or not. I don`t really believe him.
CHRISTIE: It makes me ask about me what did I do wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he handles it very nicely. He handles everything for the state.
PINSKY: Jenny, what are your thoughts about this man`s behavior today?
HUTT: First of all, I think the whole scandal is just delicious. I`ll start with that. And I happen to like Chris Christie. He`s in a bit of a pickle right now, but I believe him.
I do not think he knew what went on. I think it`s kind of funny that Bridget Kelly`s name is Bridget. Bridge-gate.
PINSKY: But don`t you think that he has sort of characterized, he`s sort of stereotyped as a bully and now that there`s evidence that a bully is going on people are jumping all over that because it confirms the stereotype?
HUTT: Well, it doesn`t confirm the stereotype because we`re not sure that he knew about what went on.
PINSKY: I think that`s why there`s a story, that`s one of the reasons.
Let`s get the panel in here. Anahita, Segun, Jillian, and Greg Grunberg from "Heroes" and the star of "Big Ass Spider". He`s also the creator of the free mobile coupon app Yowza.
Greg, I see you shaking your head. But I get to you in one second. I want to first go to Rita Cosby, investigative reporter, host of WOR Radio in New York.
Rita, what`s the latest?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Dr. Drew, it is being called bridge-gate. And today, a usually boisterous in-your-face Governor Chris Christie said he was stunned, betrayed, humiliated. He profusely apologized.
Federal investigators are seeing tonight if anyone broke the law, abused their power for political gain. They`ll scour over e-mails and text messages, including likely from the governor himself, to see if he knew anything prior to today about two of his staffers planning a major traffic nightmare in a New Jersey town leading on to the busiest bridge in the country, all to get back at the town`s mayor who did not support the gov in his recent re-election bid.
As you said the governor addressed reporters today for about two hours. And so far, no public appearances are slated for tomorrow. The big question tonight, will the Sopranos-style scandal put a hit on his potential presidential candidacy? Dr. Drew?
HUTT: Oh, goodness.
PINSKY: Thanks, Rita.
Greg, I saw you shaking your head, nodding your head vigorously when I said his reputation as a big man, as a bully, Rita even referred to the Sopranos in here, is that why people are jumping all over this thing?
GREG GRUNBERG, ACTOR: Well, Rita just took my shtick. Thanks, Rita.
But I will say this. Why are we surprised that a guy like this is using intimidation and bullying tactics. This is the way our country was founded. You don`t support me, I don`t support you.
We do it with riders in legislation all the time. You want to build this park? Fine, you got to build this freeway.
We bully each other all the time. This guy`s the best at it. He`s got people kissing his ring on both sides of the aisle. He`s the best hope that the Republicans have for the new election and running for president.
And I hope this thing blows -- I love this guy, but I hope it blows up so I can play him in the Hallmark movie.
PINSKY: Segun, go ahead.
ODUOLOWU: Yes, typically, I`m a card carrying member of the Democratic Party for my own personal reasons. But this isn`t petty politics. I mean, if you want to believe that he knew something, fine, but he got up there and he took the shots. He said that the buck stops with me. Most politicians don`t do that.
ODUOLOWU: I respect him even though I`m not really a Republican and I don`t agree with most of his views, I respect the man for going up there, taking it all from reporters and saying, I will go and find out what happened.
GRUNBERG: What are you talking about? No, no, no, wait a minute. No --
ODUOLOWU: The buck stops with me.
GRUNBERG: They`re spinning him as a hero now? Are you kidding me?
ODUOLOWU: No, no, no.
ODUOLOWU: But he took responsibility. Politicians don`t --
ODUOLOWU: Give him credit for taking responsibility.
PINSKY: Segun, hold on, I don`t want to turn your guys` mikes. Taking responsibility is what I want to ask Anahita about.
If this were a physician overseeing, let`s say, he had a nurse or nurse practitioner under him or her and the nurse practitioner did something egregious, the doctor even though he might not have observed what was going on with that extender under him or her, would be held accountable in many ways legally.
So, is the law going to hold these people accountable and the governor accountable?
SEDAGHATFAR: You`re right about that. Doctors certainly would be held vicariously liable for the actions of their nurses. And here, I don`t think all the facts have come out. The investigation hasn`t been conducted. The U.S. attorney is conducting an investigation. If they find there is some criminal liability, they should go after him.
But I think what`s going on here is really Christie is taking a page from Obama`s playbook, right? Like, deny knowledge of everything that goes on under your watch, like Benghazi, the IRS scandal, the NSA scandal. I mean, need I go further? This is politics, Dr. Drew.
I watched his -- if I may finish without Segun interrupting me this time, I`d appreciate it.
PINSKY: Please go.
SEDAGHATFAR: I watched the press conference today. I was thoroughly impressed. I think he was very sincere. He was strong in his denial that he did nothing wrong. And if he is telling the truth that there is no evidence that he knew about this or that he was involved in this, then this is definitely not going to affect his presidential bid.
And I think he will move forward, he`s a great contender. And this is politics as usual, let`s face it.
PINSKY: We want to talk to someone from New Jersey. So, I brought in Doria Pagnotta. She`s from the reality show "Jerseylicious" on the Style Network.
Doria, you`re not happy about the way this is playing out. Tell us why.
DORIA PAGNOTTA, REALITY STAR (via telephone): Hi, Dr. Drew.
No, I`m really, really upset about it. You know, (INAUDIBLE) New Jersey. They love this crap. They think that people (ph) from New Jersey are monsters, we`re idiots, let`s make fun of us. It really stinks that they`re going crazy on Governor Christie.
Me, personally, I was affected by hurricane Sandy. I was rescued by boat. It was really bad. I feel like this is absolutely ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.
PINSKY: Doria, I appreciate -- Jillian, I can imagine if this were Los Angeles and somebody had screwed with our traffic patterns here. There would be people would be like military action on the streets, no?
BARBERIE: We`d actually have Armageddon.
But there`s one question that we haven`t asked yet. This Bridget Kelly took it upon herself then, without the governor knowing anything about it, to go and completely mess up with the Port Authority traffic and possibly -- I mean, one woman died. This was a very big deal.
So, we are to believe -- believe me, I watched Chris Christie today, and I`m kind of a fan of his because I love his boisterous personality. But I thought he did well. He was taking it on the chin. I -- as a politician will stand up here and answer your questions.
However, it`s pretty ballsy of an aide to go under his watch and do this without any ramifications.
SEDAGHATFAR: It happened before.
GRUNBERG: She didn`t go under his watch. He knew exactly what was going on.
This is -- I love this guy. This guy does some amazing things. And he is so outspoken and right in your face, that`s why we love him. He does a lot of good.
You know, the fact that this is putting a smear on New Jersey is a bad thing. And I agree with that.
But I don`t think this should be a shock to anybody. I think this guy says what he said today, gets back in the car and goes, it was one bridge, give me a break. Come on.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s true.
PINSKY: Hang on. I want to bring in the behavior bureau and look at Governor Christie`s apology and also the issue of hubris in all this.
And later on, police say this man, I`ll show in a second, murdered his stepfather by giving him what`s been called an atomic wedgie. A forensic expert to tell you how that in fact makes sense.
Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: I am not a focus-group-tested, blow-dried candidate for governor. I don`t hide my emotions from people. I am who I am, but I am not a bully.
REPORTER: Were you mad? Did you break anything?
REPORTER: Did slam any phones down? Did you curse anyone out?
I mean, it`s hard to imagine you being this calm.
CHRISTIE: I mean, I know you guys would love that if I actually did.
I don`t break things. You need to understand this. I am a very sad person today. That`s the emotion I feel. I don`t think I`ve gotten to the angry stage yet. But I`m sure I`ll get there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny.
We`re talking about the scandal with the New Jersey governor. The behavior bureau is in here.
Let`s talk to Erica America, Z100 radio personality, and psychotherapist, Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal," Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, and Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox".
If you would like to join the conversation, tweet us @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.
All right. Danine, you`re the investigator amongst us. That seems like a pretty heartfelt sort of open discussion today the governor was offering. Do you believe his denials?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: You know, it`s not whether or not I believe him, Dr. Drew. It`s that I`m disturbed that there`s a climate in that office in which this was an acceptable thing that people thought was OK to do. I would not walk around my office like grabbing people`s butts or head-butting them because I know that`s not OK to do and it`s going to be sanctioned by those around me.
But the fact that one, two, three -- whatever number of people thought this was OK either on his watch or off his watch is a problem for me. That tells me there`s a climate in that office that`s unacceptable, and unprofessional.
PINSKY: So, the rest of us on the panel need to watch out if we`re working around Danine. She has an instinct where she walks around and head-butt, but she knows it`s not OK.
So, let me speaking of that, let me show a tweet right now. This is from @gigibeans. She says, "Live in New Jersey for a little while and your opinions on Christie will change. He knew everything and it will come out." That`s what New Jerseyites, some at least, are seemingly saying.
And I want you to watch what Christie said about himself today. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Because of my bluntness and my directness that people think - - well, of course, he must get behind that door and be a lunatic when he`s mad about something. It is the rare moment in this office when I raise my voice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wendy, are we unfairly stereotyping him? We`re making him into another Mayor Ford just because he shares a similar body habitus?
HUTT: A body habitus?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I don`t know. I`m sort of hearing he doth protest too much here, Dr. Drew. There`s no way that he did not know about something that big. And if he did not know, then he doesn`t deserve to run the country if he can`t even run his office. That`s all I can say.
PINSKY: Sam, what do you say?
WALSH: Really trying to make us see the soft side of him.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, YOUNG TURKS: I`m just shocked, Dr. Drew. I think this is more like mean girls than the Sopranos. I mean, what are they, in high school?
It`s crazy to me. It`s dangerous, unethical, criminal. I can`t imagine that these commuters had to be delayed for hours. I mean, time is money and it`s your sanity.
And like Jillian brought up, somebody died. A 91-year-old woman had a heart attack because ambulances were delayed. Buses with school children were delayed.
And I`m with Danine -- I think, listen, how does this governor not know what`s going on in his office or why do they thing that type of behavior is OK when he`s supposed to be the leader. They`re following by his example.
PINSKY: Erica and Jenny, I want to talk to each of you guys. Start with Erica, what are New Yorkers thinking about this? You guys are just across the river. How do you guys perceive?
ERICA AMERICA, Z100: I mean, this is the ugly side of politics that people just dream about, sort of it`s scandalicious, you know? I mean, not only will they do it just to move themselves head but just for pure retaliation, which is kind of crazy.
But on the other hand, the bottom line is there really isn`t any proof that he knew about it. So, I think, until then, I`m going to believe what he`s saying, he`s a likable guy, he`s done a good job.
I`m not saying I`m Republican or Democrat either, but until we see further down in the investigation what actually comes out, I`m deciding to believe what he`s saying.
PINSKY: So, Erica thinks it`s scandalicious and Jerseylicious.
HUTT: Right. And I think he`s the Republican candidate that a lot of New York Democrats like. I feel like everybody here thinks he`s done a lot of good for New Jersey.
HUTT: This is like an ugly scandal and he`s naughty like a lot of politicians. I hope he didn`t know about it. Shame on the person who order the hit, if you will, of the traffic. Not OK.
PINSKY: Let me explain a word you didn`t like, body habitus, Jenny. You didn`t like I said body habitus. His body make up. He shares a similar --
HUTT: I got what you were saying, just --
PINSKY: Fair enough. Danine, finish this up.
MANETTE: Yes. Yes. You know, I`m just wondering if anybody else is concerned as I am about the fact that we`re all being used as pawns in this huge political chess game. Whether it`s, you know, people being looked at -- more scrutinized because of the IRS affiliations or, you know, whether or not things are being withheld as far as job benefits.
I`m just really disturbed that we are all being used as pawns in this whole entire chess game. It`s really beginning to piss me off.
SCHACHER: Me, too.
PINSKY: And for me, the question is, the people in authority, how much do we hold them accountable for the people under them? Do we say that if they didn`t know -- like if you didn`t know the law and you break the law, you`re still held accountable. Physicians, if they aren`t watching something and something happens under somebody who is under them, something bad happens, they`re still accountable. What`s that, Jenny?
MANETTE: Yes. It`s on your watch.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, we are auditioning a leader here, a leader. And here`s a great way he`s showing us he can`t even lead his own office. Leaders make mistakes, though. People do make mistakes.
PINSKY: We`ll see. More on this story --
Up next, going back to Dennis Rodman. He`s going to explain his outburst.
And later, we have an update on the toddler seen cursing on video while adults let loose with racial slurs and sexually explicit comments. We`ll give you the update on that story. We`re back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DENNIS RODMAN, FORMER NBA PLAYER: People always turn down the things I do. And it`s weird. And it`s like, wow, really? You know what -- but you get Michael Jordan. You get the Lebron and stuff like that. This, this, this, this. They can do all the cool things of the world. But me? Why North Korea? Why? I love my friend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny and the "Behavior Bureau," Erica, Danine, Sam, and Wendy. And that was Dennis Rodman on CNN`s "New Day" talking about his trip to North Korea. Thanks to the subtitles, I have a better understanding of the words he was using, but not necessarily what he was saying. I think I get at what he was getting at there. Erica, do you have a sense of what he meant?
ERICA AMERICA, RADIO PERSONALITY: Yes. I mean, he`s saying -- I really believe him and that he thinks he`s using basketball as a way to promote peace, and he`s -- you know, he`s -- what I`m seeing is someone who is a little bit older, who`s star is kind of fading, and he`s looking at this powerful, as we know, you know, potentially dangerous man who`s taken a liking to him as kind of boosting his ego a little bit.
And he brought up people like Lebron James and Michael Jordan who are kind of considered icons. And I`m not saying that, you know, this guy is not -- you know, a really nice guy, but this -- I think he`s in a little over his head here. This is dangerous.
PINSKY: Right. He`s in dangerous territory.
SCHACHER: He`s way over his head here!
PINSKY: But Sam, I think the point he`s making is that Lebron and Michael Jordan, they get to go do community services and here he selected his thing and no one`s trusting him. Aw, shocks.
SCHACHER: OK. Well, here`s -- yes, given his recent behavior, I mean, we talked about it last night. I mean, why would we even think that he`s going in there with an altruistic notion? I don`t think he has an altruistic bone in his body. And it`s no secret that Kim Jong-Un is obsessed with basketball players. He`s been obsessed with basketball player since he was a little kid. He`s treating Dennis Rodman like a god.
And I`m sick and tired of hearing Dennis Rodman say, "I love my friend," "I respect my friend." This is a dictator who has no regard for human rights, no regard for human life, and he`s threatening to blow up our country. So, I`m sorry, Dennis Rodman, this is your world and we`re just all taking up space? Ridiculous.
PINSKY: Well, but Sam, I showed you guys last night his brain scans and how it may affect his judgment. I think he does believe -- I believe - - Dennis does care about people. He does -- I believe he thinks he`s doing something good.
SCHACHER: He hasn`t talked to his mom in a year.
PINSKY: You`re right. We talked to his mom and she said that, that he has not talked to her in a couple years, in fact. But you mentioned --
PINSKY: I want to show you that outburst on the CNN morning show, and we`ve subtitled that. So, let`s see if we can understand that one a little bit better. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODMAN: I`ll tell you one thing. People around the world, around the world, I`m going to do one thing. You`re a guy behind the mic right now, we are the guys here doing one thing. We have to go back to America and take the abuse. Do you have to take the abuse? Well, we`re going to take it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jenny, you want to respond to that?
SCHACHER: He`s pro-wrestling.
AMERICA: He`s delusional.
HUTT: What I want to respond to it is I think it`s very interesting that today we found out that it was now -- he had in fact been intoxicated. And you, Dr. Drew, were the first call from his publicist saying, in fact, that he was intoxicated.
PINSKY: It wasn`t publicist. It was people actually I used to speak to when I was trying to get him sober. And they were reminding me how great he is when he`s sober and can`t you see how different he is here. He actually now has made an apology. It says, quote, "It had been a very stressful day. Some of my teammates were leaving because of pressure from their families and business associates. My dreams of basketball diplomacy was quick falling apart. I had been drinking. It`s not an excuse, it is just the truth."
Danine, as usual, I love to get your thoughts on this. I`m sure you have an interesting point of view.
MANETTE: What`s funny about his little outburst is that he said, "We have to come back to America." No, you don`t. Your best friend is there. You`re not playing --
MANETTE: You don`t talk to your mother, you don`t have a job. What are you coming back for? Stay with your friend, go to a work camp, watch him kill some people. Be with your friend. Don`t bother. Just stay where you are. You don`t have to come back. Please. Please. Do us a favor.
PINSKY: All right. I want to show you, guys -- Wendy, I`ll have you respond to this -- some video release from Korea Central TV. New video of Rodman`s visit to North Korea. Take and a look and Wendy, I`ll have you respond.
Oh, it`s actually -- oh, we can actually look at it and talk about it while we`re watching. So, Wendy, here he is with his friend. And they`re exchanging gifts and socializing and have a good time. Oh, they`re exchanging alcohol. Thank you, Dennis, fantastic. Good to know that`s still in --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Wendy.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Oh, their faces. Oh, Lord. This is a narcissist`s dream, isn`t it? It`s absolutely a narcissist`s dream. And when he was talking about Lebron and Michael, and now, when he tries to do it, he gets criticized because it`s North Korea. What he`s talking about is how famous celebrities and famous athletes get wined and dined by international billionaires and international governments and nobody is inviting Dennis to that party.
SCHACHER (ph): Wah!
WALSH: So he had to pick a country that would have him, North Korea. And now, they`re complaining that his party`s not the good party. That`s really all he`s thinking in his brain.
PINSKY: When the day is done --
MANETTE: I want to ask, Wendy, a question.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Danine.
MANETTE: I want to ask Wendy, you know how sometimes women hook up with really bad guys because they like that bad guy thing, that effect?
PINSKY: Wendy knows all about that.
MANETTE: Why do you think he`s drawn to this mass murderer? What is it about this guy that you think has drawn Dennis Rodman into him?
WALSH: Danine, I thought you had read one of my books and know that I have --
WALSH: Oh, dear.
MANETTE: No. I`m talking for my psychologist`s perspective.
WALSH: I was using him as an example in my very young days of that I was attracted to bad boys. And so, yes, there is a story about it in my book called "The Boyfriend Test." In fact, in the first paragraph, women have to read the whole book.
But the truth is, yes, of course, because, you know, the North Korean leader is sort of the international bad boy, if you will, then Dennis is going to be attracted to him in the same sense. Dennis is our bad boy of the NBA. And so, they`re two peas in a pod. I understand why --
PINSKY: Got to take a break. Next up, can you actually kill somebody by giving them a wedgie?
HUTT: Oh, my gosh.
PINSKY: My forensic expert, Dr. Bill Lloyd is here. He`s going to show you how it could be done. He looks very serious with his weapon there. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His underwear was pulled up over his head and the elastic band was around his throat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Under arrest for taking a high school prank to a deadly level.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Choked him with his underwear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Davis knocked his stepfather unconscious, grabbed his underwear and gave him a, quote, "atomic wedgie."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Can an atomic wedgie kill? An Oklahoma man used this maneuver on his stepfather, and now, he`s charged with murder, Jenny. Can you imagine?
HUTT: No, I can`t imagine, but thankfully, it`s happened so I don`t have to actually imagine it. I`m, going to find out how it happened.
PINSKY: How old is your son?
HUTT: My son is 15.
PINSKY: You got to teach him about the danger of wedgies. I insist. I promise he`s had one. I promise he`s given one.
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Greg, Jillian and joining us for the first time in 2014, pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd. He has performed more than 500 autopsies. He`s there with the weapon.
PINSKY: He`s always there with the weapon.
PINSKY: -- cause of death is blunt force trauma to the head and asphyxiation. Dr. Lloyd, please explain how that underpants became a deadly weapon.
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Well, first, for those who just might be tuning in, we`re not doing an exclusive interview with Governor Chris Christie. This is a totally different story, but nonetheless, nonetheless -- it seems that this fellow, Brad Davis, was arguing with his stepfather, a little drinking had ensued, there were some harsh language, and things came to blow.
And they started punching and beating on each other. And it appears that Davis got the upper hand and the father-in-law, St. Claire, goes down, he`s unconscious, multiple blows to the head. And then in an act of supreme male superiority, I guess, the cherry on the whipped cream, he decided to give the old man a wedgie, a so-called atomic wedgie where you try to pull all of the underpants up through the back of the trousers.
In so doing, usually, the fabric will tear, and now, you`ve got a tincture (ph), you`ve got a ligature that goes over the head. Here`s what`s important to know, though, this is why it`s important. It`s bound around the neck, but it`s still bound around the waist. So, the more the man trying to fight, the tighter it got. So, this closes off the circulation to the neck and eventually stops him from breathing.
PINSKY: Now, we allegedly have some animation to bring this home. I`m hoping the animation fits with what you described there, because that makes perfect sense. So, Greg, I want you to take a good look at this. There it is. See, he doesn`t have the tearing of the elastic.
GREG GRUNBERG, ACTOR, "BIG ASS SPIDER": No.
PINSKY: So, Greg, you`ve had wedgies, you`ve given wedgies. Have you ever imagined somebody killing somebody? That`s not the way it happened. Dr. Lloyd has it right. The elastic tear is free and then gets around the neck -- Greg.
GRUNBERG: First of all, if you`re going to wear that underwear, you`re kind of asking for it. OK? I`ll just tell you that right now.
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh.
GRUNBERG: No, I`m only kidding. This is ridiculous. I mean, it was blunt force trauma that killed him. You know, the atomic wedgie goes back to the animated series "mask." This is something that was done as an animated prank and then probably done on "Jackass." It`s a shame that this guy did this. This is ridiculous. But I now have to explain to my three boys, I have a 10-year-old, a 14-year-old, and a 17-year-old.
It`s hard enough to -- you know, STDs and drugs, now I got to worry about wedgies killing you? Are you kidding me?
SCHACHER: You know what I`ve learned from this, Dr. Drew, I`m going to be going commando from now on, because that is scary. I can`t even imagine somebody doing that to you and then --
PINSKY: You don`t have to worry about it, Sam. I got news for you. You don`t have those kind of screwball friends in your life.
SCHACHER: I`m going commando from now on. Don`t, worry, Jenny.
GRUNBERG: -- costs $800 in Thailand to have this done to you.
PINSKY: Jillian, the TV -- they were fighting each other. They were really going at each other, right?
LLOYD: Right, and they`re drunk. And now with the head trauma, he`s unconscious, which made things much worse. Once you put that band around his neck, he`s helpless and he can`t fight back. He`s unconscious, he`s drunk and he`s going to try to wiggle around. The more he does, the tighter it gets, he`s out.
PINSKY: Jillian, though, you said something about the TV tray. Tell me about that part of the story -- Jillian.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I just -- the whole thing, I mean, it`s embarrassing enough. You know, he`s cold cocked by a 1970s, you know, TV tray, and then, if that`s not bad enough, the underwear over the head, the big large husky boy underwear. You know, the bottom line is it managed dad -- we do know that the mother has come forward and said he was an angry drunk.
There were issues with him believing that his stepson had burnt some of his property last year. So, these are some issues that go a lot deeper. And as you guys know, especially Dr. Drew, covering murder trials and such, when someone dies, usually that`s the end of it. When there`s extra added humiliation or beating or strangulation, it`s sort of taking the crime to another level because that perpetrator is extremely pissed off.
GRUNBERG: The other big problem here, Drew, I have to say is that, you know, this -- when you put a label on name like atomic wedgie, I mean, it sounds like a sandwich from KFC. When you put something like this on there --
GRUNBERG: -- through social media, kids are going to be -- unfortunately, they`re going to be tying this. They`re going to be playing around with this. And, this is not a joke. You know? Don`t try this at home. You have to be a professional pathologist to do this on TV.
PINSKY: And we were mentioning, we had a long conversation yesterday about cannabis. The guys smoking the pot aren`t doing the atomic wedgies. This is the domain of the alcohol abuser. Remember that when we have these kinds of conversations.
PINSKY: Next up -- thank you, panel -- staggering costs of ending marriages. A new documentary about this. I want to share it with you. A reminder, you can find us on Instagram @DRDREWHLN. We will be right back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Litigation lasted for over a year.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was married only four months and my divorce lasted over 6 1/2 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Close to eight years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eight years.
PINSKY: Half of all marriages in the United States end in divorce. And what you might not be aware is that your spouse can unilaterally initiate a divorce. It`s not a mutual decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jenny and I we`re back with Sam, Greg and Jillian. That was a new documentary I got involved with called "Divorce Corp." It`s about the enormous social, financial, personal consequences of ending a marriage. As I said, I narrate this documentary. It opens tomorrow, January 10th. The "Divorce Corp" trailer has already racked up nearly a million views on YouTube.
Jillian, divorce in this country is a $50 billion a year industry that serves itself. When people aren`t aware, they aren`t educated about what they`re getting into, there`s ways to get through without spending all the money, but if you`re not aware of what you`re getting into, you could literally lose everything.
BARBERIE: Did you come to me first for a reason, Dr. Drew, because I`m the only panelist who`s been divorced twice and I paid alimony to my first husband? Is that what you`re saying to me, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Well, I just suspect that you might have some feelings about it.
BARBERIE: I do. You know, yes, oh, my goodness, where do I start? You know, wow, you just sprung this on me. I did not know we were going to talk about this. Yes. I was divorced once. I did pay alimony to my first husband. Ladies, just know that it is California. My second husband has not asked for anything from me. It was a very quick divorce. And, you know, he`s a good guy. And he just -- we sort of, you know, left with what we came in to the marriage with.
PINSKY: If I can interrupt, it`s often not about the good guy or bad guy, it`s about the attorneys encouraging people to, you know, go for more alimony over time which they take a percentage of, about going after more child custody and child support. Greg, what did you want to say?
Well, I was just going to say --
BARBERIE: We were amicable, so that didn`t happen.
GRUNBERG: You know, it`s like anything else in your life where you, you know, need to have it all laid out officially and to do the right thing. And I think most people, they do start off that way. They want to remain friends. They want to do it for their children. You know, I`m married 21 years, thank God, you know, I didn`t marry Jillian.
BARBERIE: What`s your secret?
GRUNBERG: I`m just kidding. I`m kidding. No, but my secret is my wife. That`s the secret.
HUTT: Right. Good answer.
GRUNBERG: When someone dies, I think there are people that take advantage of the process of burying someone.
GRUNBERG: And I know a lot of people right now that are in the process of getting a divorce, and they can`t even live in separate houses. It`s a huge thing, right? People are sharing the same house even though they`re not married anymore because they can`t afford it. So, to take advantage and to prey on these people is terrible.
PINSKY: Sam, you`re part of the --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Jillian.
BARBERIE: Lawyers don`t matter. Lawyers don`t matter. If the husband and the wife agree and they come to a decision, that`s what it`s about. Then lawyers, they can`t come after you.
PINSKY: Yes. But then somebody gets in somebody`s ear and goes, you know, this is a very complicated system. You need an attorney to protect you. The attorney says, well, you got to protect yourself. But Sam, do young people prepare for this? Are they aware that this is ahead if they don`t really make a good choice in setting up and committing to a marriage?
SCHACHER: Well, it`s so sad that you say that because we actually had a topic that we talked about recently on Pop Trigger about marriage and I look at the common section, and there is so much skepticism and people being pessimistic saying oh, but, one in two people end up in divorce anyways. So, I just think that, yes, people are probably going to prepare with annulment or not annulments, you know what I`m talking about.
PINSKY: I got to go to break, guys. Thank you very much. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: Jenny, the toddler who had been caught in what cops called the "thug cycle" and three other children in the home have been removed by Nebraska child services. Conditions in the home were described as such, quote, "kids living with kids raising kids." Hopefully, that will turn out better than it looked like. "What Would You Do?" starts right now.