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Cops: Young Mom Killed Kids & Herself; Adam Lanza May Have Called Radio Show
Aired January 16, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, another murder/suicide. A young mom allegedly kills her two daughters, then herself. It`s the second within days. The behavior bureau investigates.
Plus, Adam Lanza. Did the Sandy Hook school shooter call a radio show one year before the massacre? We have the disturbing audio.
And this guy is trying to jump backwards into that pool. Will he make it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want to watch.
PINSKY: Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM radio`s Jenny Hutt who appeared today on Wendy Williams.
Jenny, good job on Wendy Williams. Thank you for toeing the line.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: She loves you.
PINSKY: I love Wendy. What`s not to love about Wendy? Did you have fun?
HUTT: I had a great time. She`s terrific.
PINSKY: Well, we`re going to get some not so light stuff coming up. Did Adam Lanza call a radio station to talk about the violent chimpanzee attack a year before he speaks about it in ways that are chilling, we have that audio. But first, it looks like another murder/suicide. Last night, it was a woman who e-mailed her husband -- that was last night -- before killing herself and the kids.
Tonight, it`s a young mom and her two girls gone. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just heartbreaking to find out last night that she`s gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police found three people dead from gunshot wounds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a mother and her two daughters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was just like so enthusiastic and she was just so happy to be here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know that it`s a murder/suicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had no idea that something like that would ever happen in your family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neighbors had heard the commotion on Tuesday and seen police the night before after Kyler and her fiance had broken up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fiance had gone over there for his property. And they called the police so nothing did happen.
PINKSY: Joining us is a Samantha Schacher, social commentator and host of "Pop Trigger" in the Young Turks Network, Lauren Sivan, reporter, Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, and Jillian Barberie, TV personality, and on the phone, HLN`s own Lynn Berry.
Lynn, can you give us the latest?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST (via telephone): Well, it`s really the details are murky because this investigation`s just beginning. And the headline here, we don`t know a motive. What we know is that Kyler had been dating her fiance for about three years. She lived in Utah before this and moved to southern California for what friends said it was a great job about a year ago, had just moved back. And then Monday breaks up with her fiance. We don`t know why.
What we do know police were called to the house as he was moving out. No incident Monday night.
Come Tuesday, about 7:00, he comes back to move the rest of his stuff out. And that`s when 911 was called because of shots fired. The fiance is found in the front yard inconsolable screaming why would she do this?
Kylar apparently shooting her 13-year-old daughter Kennedy, her 7- year-old daughter Isabella. Police say, this is important, they`ve spoken to the fiance, and spoken to the family and they say the fiance is not a suspect here. But we still don`t know why a mother and how a mother could possibly do this.
PINSKY: Thank you so much, Lynn.
I want to go to Anahita.
Anahita, I know you defend women`s rights a lot. Do you see stuff like this going on with domestic violence is unattended?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: I do, Dr. Drew. In fact, I`m so sick of hearing this story over and over again.
I mean, you just said you covered a story like this last night, a mother taking the life of her two young kids and killing herself and now this. It`s just so senseless, Dr. Drew. What in the world would motivate a mother to kill her own children? Because I can understand if an adult, OK, they want to commit suicide, not that I`m endorsing that or condoning that, I never think that`s the answer. But why would you take the lives of your own kids with you? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
PINSKY: I want to welcome Lauren to the program and get her into this conversation. I`m sure you`ve reported before on men that do this. And we`ve always said, well, this is this malignant narcissism where they feel like nobody`s going to survive and they`re not going to survive, they`re not going to get the kids. But the mothers have very different motivation.
What would you say, Lauren?
LAUREN SIVAN, REPORTER: Once again, we don`t know her motive for doing this, but if it was some kind of crime of passion, if she was trying to exact some kind of revenge on her ex-fiance, if you would think what would hurt him the most, you know, not only not doing harm to him --
PINSKY: But it`s not his kids. It`s not his kids. It`s weirdly not his kids.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s true, they`re not his kids. They weren`t even his kids.
SIVAN: They`re just innocent victims.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, TV PERSONALITY: Dr. Drew --
SIVAN: But don`t you think he`d have to live with horror that these kids are dead, in her mind, because of something that he did, possibly?
PINSKY: Maybe. That`s a pretty wacky way of thinking.
I`ve got on the phone a friend of the mom Kari Castanon. She`s a friend of Kyler, the mom in question here.
Kari, you actually spoke to Kyler on Monday. What was her state of mind? Do you have any way to help us understand what happened here?
KARI CASTANON, FRIEND OF MOM (via telephone): Yes, I spoke with her on Monday. And I saw no warning signs to this. She was like she always was when life gave her an obstacle, and she was optimistic that life would go on. And if they were breaking up, it was because he wasn`t trying and she was better off for it.
BARBERIE: And, Kari, did she --
PINSKY: Hang on a second, guys. Kari, am I right this seems as weird to you as it does to us, maybe weirder since you actually spoke to this woman just before this all went down?
CASTANON: It`s unreal. It wasn`t like her at all. I`m still having a tough time comprehending it.
PINSKY: Yes, and by the way, listen, thank you for coming on and obviously our condolences. We`re just trying to wrap our head around this.
Jillian, you have a question for Kari?
BARBERIE: Well, I do. I heard she just had a birthday party for her 7-year-old daughter. And that certainly doesn`t seem like the type of person who is going through this. I can`t even wrap my head around it. It`s called filicide. It`s mothers who killed their children. There`s reasons to do it.
Sometimes, it`s economical. Sometimes, it`s mental. Like Andrea Yates, who drowned all her kids, other times --
PINSKY: Typically that`s the case. Typically, it`s some kind of postpartum depression or psychotic episode. Women don`t manifest that malignant narcissistic impulse the way the men do. So, what it makes this extra -- are you implying, Jillian, that there might be some wrongdoing?
BARBERIE: Of course, there`s wrongdoing, she killed her kids. What do you mean by that, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Maybe that somebody set that up.
BARBERIE: No, no.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Dr. I`ll say that.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Sam.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Sam, yes, Sam.
SCHACHER: OK, I have a number of unanswered questions. Can you hear me?
SCHACHER: I know that the fiance or ex-fiance has been cleared and I`m just speculating just speaking openly, but it doesn`t make sense to me. We just heard from her friend that she was optimistic and in a good place. She just celebrated her daughter`s birthday. She just had the confidence to break up with her fiance.
And when the neighbors saw the fiance moving out, he was the one distraught, then he was found after she killed herself and killed her children. It just seems a little bit fishy to me that there were no red flags.
PINSKY: And there`s another player in all this. Kari, can you tell us anything about the girl`s biological father or is there more than one?
CASTANON: The girl`s biological father. Can you hear me?
CASTANON: Oh. He actually has not been in the picture for years. He lives in the state of Washington, moved on with his life, made a new family. He`s really not been in the picture.
PINSKY: Jenny Hutt, go ahead.
HUTT: So you said before that she was someone who confronted and dealt with her obstacles. What obstacles did you know of that she was having?
CASTANON: Well, she was a single mother trying to put herself through school to get herself a career and not just a job and take care of her girls. The girls were the most important thing to her. She tried to make the best like she could for them. Any obstacle financially that she was ever faced with, she was really optimistic about overcoming it. And she was that way with her friends here, too.
PINSKY: Kari, I`ve got to take a break.
Panel, thank you. Hang on. Sit tight.
And, again, Kari, thank you for coming. And our condolences not just to you but the entire community has to be rocked by this.
Jenny, next, we`re going to kind of get into what we think makes mothers kill their children. We`re going to tackle that with the behavior bureau.
And later, I`ll show you a guy standing up on a roof with about 12 feet of cement between him and a pool. I want to know what he`s going to do and how he`s going to do it.
I -- Sam, you`re going to show me these videos. So, I`m having what`s called a cremasteric response if you want to look that up.
We`ll be right back after this.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt. Police say the young mom killed her two daughters, then turned the gun on herself after the fiance broke up with her and was moving out.
I want to bring in the behavior bureau to bring this to some sort of understanding.
Samantha Schacher back with us. Wendy Walsh joins, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox, Mike Catherwood, radio and television host and my co-host on "Love Line", Lovelineshow.com. There`s a podcast there. You can hear it any more. And Erica America, a Z100 Radio personality and psychotherapist.
All right. Wendy, we want to go to you, because you`re my clinical person. Here we are again, a mother killing kids.
I`m going to say it -- I`m going to frame it this way. Mothers that kill their children, most commonly it`s in a psychotic postpartum depression. It`s usually babies they`re not killing children and teenagers. Men do that when they are losing custody and they have a malignant narcissistic need to have control and sort of see the kids as an extension of themselves.
I don`t see that going on in these women. What are we looking at here? Everyone is scratching their head, Wendy. How do we understand this?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, there are one of three or combinations of three factors that could be involved, Dr. Drew. First, there could have been an ongoing mental illness that could have been plaguing her for a long time prior to this. Secondly, you know, in the history of our species there have been times when children kill their children for survival aspects.
Now, she has a distorted view -- she had a distorted view of what her survival prospects were as a single mother. But looking through her distorted lens, when this boyfriend broke up with her, she could feel almost like a lifeline was being cut off for her and her kids. Now, then you add on that the potential for a major attachment injury that could cause a psychotic break. You know, somebody so enmeshed she moved across the country --
PINSKY: Wendy, getting back to a psychotic episode. She got so severely depressed and so severely wounded that she actually became psychotic -- meaning her connection to reality was off and she probably thought it was the right thing to do to kill her kids.
WALSH: But the question is what triggered it?
PINSKY: Right. Help me understand this, Mike. We deal with all this crazy stuff on "Loveline." What about this?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, TV, RADIO PERSONALITY: Well, I mean it`s hard for me to even wrap my head around how someone would think it was a good idea or there would be some type of up side to killing her children. But clearly whether this was this sudden psychotic break or this was an ongoing mental condition, this is a woman that was -- had really left her own good judgment behind. She was in some type of altered state.
PINSKY: Hang on a second. Mike, I`m with you. So that`s Mike, Wendy, Erica America. You agree she was in some kind of altered state? We don`t have to think psychologically per se about this.
ERICA AMERICA, Z100: I agree it was a distorted view. But what I don`t quite understand is that there was no warning signs whatsoever. If we do case studies on these, and we were discussing that last night, why do we look at these stories?
It`s important to look at them because I think if you look at the entire thing, it had to be a pre-existing condition that was getting worse and worse.
PINSKY: Something, yes.
AMERICA: It`s possible that it could come out of nowhere, but I have a feeling there`s more to this.
PINSKY: I agree, Erica.
PINSKY: The same tough. Hold on.
CATHERWOOD: So commonly, though.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mike.
CATHERWOOD: We see it so commonly that -- you know, especially on love line where you say, well, there was no warning signs, there was no previous behavior that would give you anything to lead to this. And then upon further investigation, very little investigation, you see that there was a wealth of warning signs and the writing was on the wall.
PINSKY: That`s right.
SCHACHER: Exactly. That`s the point.
PINSKY: But, Sam, hold on. A lack of intervention by the community as well, which we heard about last night, that people close their doors. She`s crazy, got to get away from her. Sam, go ahead.
SCHACHER: That`s exactly my point, Dr. Drew, is we`re all the leads in our own dramas. We`re all in our own bubble and we`re not aware of what`s going on around us. We need to be the eyes and ears of our communities, our friends, our family circles, our neighbors, even if they`re not that close with us, because there`s some lack of human connection nowadays where even if we do see a warning sign, we either ignore it.
We justify in our own minds just to make our own minds easier. And we need to reach out and save lives.
PINSKY: And, Jenny, hold on, I`ll get to you in a second. Somebody last night tweeted me saying that it was -- oh, I`m suggesting that people should overcome the bystander effect, which is when there`s a large group, you`re less likely to intervene.
I`m not saying that. I`m saying we need to have neighborhoods and communities that are actually concerned and reach out.
PINSKY: Please, Wendy.
WALSH: Dr. Drew, what about those fathers? I`m going to get on my soap box again. Our modern American culture is a terrible place for single mothers and up one of the most dangerous places for a child to live is in the home with a non-biologically-related man, mommy`s boyfriend, new husband, whatever.
Where are those birth fathers? Why are they not around intervening and helping out with these children?
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
WALSH: Yes. I also think that part of the problem is that we`re such a judgmental society that mothers judge other mothers and it`s very hard for a mom to say, I`m really struggling, I`m freaking out about this, et cetera. And I think that as women and as mothers, you got to sometimes let your freak flag fly and say what`s going on and hopefully people are going to help you rather than judge you. Really, because maybe that will --
PINSKY: Wait a second. Mike, Mike, do you understand what Jenny`s saying? Go ahead.
CATHERWOOD: I do. And I don`t disagree at all. I think that society in a way, it has become so judgmental that you almost are reticent to ask for help. But on a related note, I think that in a community, if you do see warning signs or you see a lot of domestic disturbances or loud noises, things have gotten so litigious and so crazy, a lot of times you`re scared to intervene because you don`t want to get in trouble yourself.
A lot of people feel like I just want to stay out of it. That`s not my business.
PINSKY: Then ask for help. Get the authorities in there. There was domestic violence issues in that household. Don`t stop calling.
Thank you, panel.
Next up, Adam Lanza -- did the Sandy Hook School shooter call a radio show one year before the massacre? We will play you the audio after this.
And later, again, I asked you guys to look up the cremasteric response. If you look that up, you`ll understand what I`m feeling.
Mike Catherwood, look that up on the break when I see this guy looking to jump into a pool that`s like about 14 feet away from the roof.
Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One year and three days before America was shocked by what happened at Sandy Hook Elementary School, Adam Lanza, the person responsible for that massacre may have called into an Oregon radio station to explain his take on a different ugly news story.
CALLER: Some little thing he experienced would be the last straw and he was overwhelmed by the life that he had.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny and our behavior bureau -- Sam, Wendy, Mike and Erica America.
What you just heard may be the voice of Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza. CNN has not independently confirmed the voice on the tape is his, but "The New York Daily News", which got the tape from an Oregon radio station, spoke to two of Lanza`s friends who say it is him. The caller was part of a show called Anarchy Radio. He wanted to talk about a violent attack in 2009 when a chimpanzee called Travis mauled a woman named Charlotte Nash.
Listen to more. Here we go.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: This attack can be seen entirely parallel to the attacks the random acts of violence that you see on your show every week, committed by humans which the mainstream has no explanation for. An actual human I don`t think it would be such a stretch to say that he very well could be a teenage mall shooter or something like that.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Criminologist Casey Jordan joins us by phone.
Casey, is he telling us something in this call? Is he telegraphing something?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, there`s not any red flags. It`s not predictable that a year later he would massacre the people at the school. But his articulate explanation which is very lacking in logic, actually, is astonishing because he`s basically arguing that the chimp who acted, I think most people would agree, on its wild animal instincts in finally attacking a woman, he`s basically saying that that chimp being domesticated was the same as a human being and could just as easily have been a mall shooter.
And by drawing that parallel, he`s basically arguing that violence is instinctual to humans as it is to the chimp or alternatively, that the chimp has the same cognition as a human. But either way, humans and wild animals are essentially the same when it comes to violence. It`s in their bloodstream. It`s innate. It`s all random but completely understandable because they can`t help it. It`s just part of their fabric.
I think that`s a reflection of what he`s thinking about himself.
PINSKY: That`s right. At the same time he`s talking about the animal having this sort of anthropomorphic qualities which he associates with a human, which he talks about the monkey being driven somewhere and wanting to go somewhere else and just getting upset and natural violence erupts, just like with a human.
He ranted uninterrupted apparently for seven minutes. Before you guys have questions, I want to play you a little more. You`ll see how he defends Travis the chimp.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: Travis wasn`t an untamed monster at all. He wasn`t just feigning domestication. He was civilized. He was able to integrate into society.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sam, you had something.
SCHACHER: Yes, Dr. Drew, what I got from this -- because I also listened to the whole seven-minute phone call, if this is Adam Lanza, it`s extremely chilling and telling. Because what I got was he was essentially relating to the chimpanzee being a fish out of water.
I mean, let`s all recall that Adam Lanza had Asperger`s syndrome. And he was extremely paranoid and felt that he couldn`t relate to people and society. He was anti-social. He had those garbage bags pasted up on his window so light couldn`t come in. His mom wasn`t allowed into his bedroom.
So -- and he also said in the phone call that there was meaning behind the chimpanzee`s violence. And I think that was his way of saying that that was the chimpanzee acting out because he had a reason to.
PINSKY: Right. And you should be sympathetic to violent individuals whether chimpanzees are people.
AMERICA: Yes, I don`t think the phone call alone, like Casey said, is enough to incriminate and predict what happened. I do thing like the garbage bags. That picture we keep looking at. That`s ridiculous.
To tell me that there were not warning signs is that this kid was a little bit of an oddball and we should look into it.
HUTT: A little bit?
AMERICA: It`s just insane to me. Early identification and prevention from an early age, our teachers, our students, our kids need to learn about mental health, the warning side to things kind of going wrong and that`s what we need to be looking at, but how did it reach the point that this happened?
PINSKY: Parents need to soften their denial and not be around guns when the children have aggressive tendencies.
WALSH: Well, of course, kids and guns don`t mix. Jenny, I love you. You did mention that he was diagnosed with Asperger`s syndrome. I`m not sure that I heard about that. Who said that he had Asperger`s?
WALSH: I basically want to remind everybody that Asperger`s syndrome is not a mental disease or disorder. It`s just being slightly neuro atypical and a different way in learning and perceiving the world. It`s not generally connected with violence or even big bouts of paranoia.
SCHACHER: I was just relating to his anti-socialness. I was relating to that and his anti-socialness.
PINSKY: Mike, you`re being very quiet.
CATHERWOOD: I have to say that I`m just completely shocked that he covered up his windows to not let the outside world in with that honey- glazed tone and beautiful complexion, I would have thought he was outside tanning all the time.
HUTT: Oh, stop it. Dr. Drew?
CATHERWOOD: He looked like a young George Hamilton. I mean, unbelievable. The number one warning sign is that guy`s hair.
HUTT: Dr. Drew --
HUTT: You and I have talked about this before and the panel`s talked about it, this was an epic fail start to finish with this kid. I don`t know what was wrong with him, but like Erica said looking at him, there`s a lot of sides.
Nobody did anything. I`m a mom. My kid puts garbage bags on his window. I mean, long before that`s starting to happen, there`s a lot going on and that kid is out of his room.
SCHACHER: Right. And he had a four-foot spreadsheet of all the mass murders, the mass shootings. I mean, how did the mom not see these things that raise red flags?
AMERICA: Yes, the first level of intervention, of course, like you said, Jenny, would be the parents. But in this case something was off with the mother as well. So then in the second case, it has to be the teachers, the friends, the family.
We were talking about this. It comes over from the last case we`re talking about. Our whole community needs to look out for the warning signs when people can`t help themselves. The mother obviously giving her kid guns when he had Asperger`s and he had alone type of behavior, it didn`t make sense.
So, somebody else, a family friend, a teacher needed to step in and it never happen.
CATHERWOOD: Why is there an Anarchy Radio, by the way?
CATHERWOOD: Why does that even exist? I don`t understand.
PINSKY: Yes, I don`t know either. I don`t know what that was.
CATHERWOOD: Erica, as other radio people -- I don`t know, but it certainly wasn`t good radio. I can`t believe they allowed him to ramble on for seven minutes. If I heard that guy for second seconds, I`d hang up on it.
It`s also innate in monkeys as well as in human beings and with the violence we`ve seen --
PINSKY: And by the way, the host thought that he was talking like that to disguise his voice, that kind of flat affect is a sign of mental illness, everybody. That`s something that people should identify. Don`t walk on egg shells with somebody with mental illness, don`t turn away. Go in.
Moms, if your kids don`t let you into a part or place in your house -- that`s not OK. It`s your house. You go in. And if there`s trouble, you get help.
Up next, we continue our week-long series "Hooked: A Nation of Addicts". And tonight, we`re going to look at addiction to sex and pornography. I`ll speak to a former adult film star and we`ll talk to addicts after this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And coming up, we have some extreme viral videos. People in these videos have the potential for real serious consequences. Take a look at this guy on the roof. Does he land in the pool or not? Mike, did you look at cremasteric response? You understand what I`m feeling here, buddy?
CATHERWOOD: I think so, yes. Isn`t that what happens when I think about Sam and Jillian?
PINSKY: -- into cold water.
CATHERWOOD: In the bathroom.
PINSKY: Before we get to the videos, we`re to look at our -- we`re going to talk about a first of our week-long series, "Hooked: A Nation of Addicts" continues today. Tonight, addiction to sex and pornography. Pornography is much more than big business. It is an industry generating billions -- tens of billions of dollars in profits every year.
Back with us, Jillian, Mike, Samantha, and joining us Jennie Ketcham. She is a recovering sex addict, a former porn star. Jenny, help people -- and by the way, you know how I love you, my dear. Thank you for joining us again. How is your graduate program going before we get on to it?
JENNIE KETCHAM, RECOVERING SEX ADDICT: I love it. I tell you what, Dr. Drew. When you and I first met, almost five years ago now, there is no way that I would have thought that, with a little bit of help and a lot of recovery, I`d have a bachelor`s degree and right now being pursuing my master`s.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Good for you.
KETCHAM: I`m so in love. Thank you for asking.
PINSKY: Yes. Jennie is awesome, guys. Do guys -- does the panel have questions for Jennie? I was wondering --
JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, yes.
PINSKY: Go ahead. OK. Who is that?
BARBERIE: I have many. Jennie, I used to watch you with Dr. Drew and I followed you. And you know, I -- as a woman in my 30s, I would watch pornography sometimes with a man, sometimes without, with my husband, in the safety of my -- and I never got addicted, but I felt what was really interesting about what you said was sex suddenly took a turn. And it was no longer -- you weren`t doing it to enjoy it.
It was a compulsive behavior. And you were doing it to things that weren`t sexual, and I found that fascinating.
BARBERIE: Why? What was that about? Can you analyze that now?
KETCHAM: So, sure. So, first of all, I want to geek out a little bit because I love you, Jillian Barberie when you were on "Good Day L.A."
KETCHAM: Total pleasure. I`ll answer anything you want. So, what part of it came down to was that, as an adult performer, I ended up working with a lot of people that I just honestly didn`t want to have sex with. And so, part of what I did was train myself to have sex and to be able to enjoy a sexual experience without actually connecting with the person I`m with.
So -- and as weird and as wonky as this is going to sound, I totally would like masturbate to "Law & Order" or like TNT reruns that had nothing to do with sex. And what that actually ended up doing was just really dulling me to my own sexuality and to my own enjoyment of sex.
PINSKY: Mike, you got a little energy in this area as well. Anything you like to help people to help them understand how say addiction -- chemical addiction and sex addiction fit together?
CATHERWOOD: Yes. I mean, all kidding aside, I admire Jennie so much. Dr. Drew, you and I both know, both on and off the air at "Love Line," we`ve admired her writing and her progress in life so much. So, I just want to say that. But also, I mean, it was interesting that you said how you disconnected kind of the intimacy to sex. I have done that in my life and I never had any even any semblance to the adult industry or any connection to it.
Do you feel like there`s a bigger threat with the internet and so much access to really graphic and intense sexual imagery? Is it easier for someone to do that even if they`re not involved in the industry just from viewing it and having that kind of voyeuristic aspect?
KETCHAM: Oh, absolutely. Mike, I would have to say that just being engaged in the rapid succession of sexual images that our media provides kids, so not even talking about pornography but talking about like the kind of images that we`re exposed to on a regular basis. It really kind of heightens the level that you need in order to get off, you know? And so -- then you find yourself looking for more sexual things.
PINSKY: What we don`t know, we don`t know the impact this is all going to have on --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mike.
CATHERWOOD: I was going to say, Drew, I find the most disturbing part is that we nightly talk to 16 to 25-year-old guys who don`t find sex to be good enough. Regular sex, when by the way, it wasn`t, you know, it wasn`t that long ago that I was a teenaged guy. I was over the moon so happy, it was like a gold mine for me if I was able to have sex, just regular old sex. Any type of sex. Even with myself. That was good enough.
But now, you have to -- I mean, they really have to up the ante. It`s like cocaine`s no longer good enough. They`re looking for the free base. They have to really like -- and I think that a lot of it has to do with the, extreme, extreme images --
PINSKY: And people have likened the fact that porn is pouring down on people in their computers is like having a crack pipe in your office or your bedroom or wherever your computer is at.
PINSKY: It`s with us all the time. So, if people who are predisposed to these things get momentum and going also, we don`t even know the full impact as Mike is saying is going to have on young people, they seem to need higher levels of arousal to be sort of adequately satisfied. And then, Jennie, as you said, there are people who continue to get increasingly involved with it where they actually get addicted. Now, Jennie, Jillian, you had the question about the difference between sort of healthy relationship with pornography, so to speak, and addiction, is that right?
BARBERIE: Absolutely, because I feel like, you know, in my 30s, I was afraid of diseases. So, you know, maybe I`d watch a sexy movie or a little bit of porn. And I know people in the industry, for some reason, when I was on that morning show, they all watched. And so, I would get baskets of porn sent to me. Jenna Jamison sent me a basket of -- when I had a baby, I had a basket of porn. So, I had a basket of diapers and bottles and a basket of pornography.
So, my point is there`s a healthy way maybe a husband and wife want to look at it. They want to get their sexy on together, and then there`s an addiction to where it`s available like it`s talking about -- you know, it`s not your dad`s day where he would bring home Playboys -- your brother, you`d sneak and look, oh, that`s what women look like. And then it got --
PINSKY: So, if women at home are concerned that their husband may be addicted, there are certain criteria. You have to have lost control. There have to be consequences. You have to have loss of enjoyment of things that were previously enjoyable. And these people spend hours oftentimes searching for this material.
Jennie, you`re nodding your head yes. What should women at home do if they have concerns that a partner may be a sex addict?
KETCHAM: If you`re concern that your partner is a sex addict, talk to him. I mean, the one thing that might be driving him to keep up with this behavior is feeling ashamed of what he`s doing. So, the longer that he lives in that isolation and the longer that he can`t talk about what he`s doing, the worse it`s going to get. The sooner that you are in a very loving and very compassionate way approach it.
Say something like I`m really concerned. I love you. I really enjoy our sex life. And I want us to be able to talk about what`s going on right now. Approach it with honest, open and caring words, and you know, just do for him what you would want him to do for you.
PINSKY: And unfortunately, Jenny, Jenny Hutt, many times, women wait till they`re resentful and angry and freaking out and sort of going at the partner with a lot of aggression.
HUTT: Well, because I think they feel maybe rejected on some level like why is he doing it to that and not to me kind of thing. But, my question for you, Jennie, is going back to that sort of compulsive behavior you had where you were finding sexual stimuli in places that were not at all sexual. Was that so that you would get off when you were with people who weren`t turning you on?
KETCHAM: Yes. I mean, that was specifically -- well, OK, Drew. Initially, that was like the explicit goal was to be able to perform with people and not have to be into them to be able to be really into what I was doing at that moment. Yes, exactly. But what ended up happening was I just ended up conditioning myself to disconnect from people in a very generalized sort of way. So, I may or may not have had good intentions.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Can I ask Jennie a question?
SCHACHER: Can I ask Jennie a question?
KETCHAM: Which Jenny?
SCHACHER: Jennie, there`s a lot of people out there, unfortunately, that say that sex addiction is a myth. They don`t lump it in the same group of other addictions. What would you say to people that believe that?
KETCHAM: Well, you know, alcoholism, it took a long time for alcoholism to be recognized as a legitimate addiction and to be seen as a disease and something that wasn`t actually a weakness. And so, it`s certainly not surprising to me that people would question something that`s inherently theirs. I mean, people feel very strongly about what sex is for and the way that it should be in your life, you know?
So, of course, people question it, and they should. They should question everything. They should question any diagnosis that comes out. But the truth of the matter is is that a lot of people are struggling with this, and the longer that we continue to deny that this is a problem, the worse it`s going to get.
PINSKY: There you go. Let`s leave it right there, guys. Thank you very much, panel.
CATHERWOOD: And also, a big problem, real quick, a big problem is that porn is awesome now. And it makes it a lot harder to resist.
CATHERWOOD: I`m not kidding.
CATHERWOOD: It used to be that like it was --
PINSKY: That`s like saying that the crack is -- well, the crack is better than cocaine. That`s why we`re seeing more problems with it and pills are getting increasingly more powerful. That`s why we`re seeing -- the more powerful the drug, the more likely we are to induce an addiction. So, that should not be a surprise to us.
Next up, Sam Schacher has a collection of viral videos you will not believe, including this one. Look at this. It`s hard to watch this guy. We`re going to -- Sam`s going to tell us whether he does it and whether he makes it. Reminder, you can find us on Instagram @DrDrewHLN. Back after this.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt, Sam, Mike and Jillian. And Sam, you brought along several viral videos that are blowing up on social media. Give us the first one.
SCHACHER: OK. So, the first one, yes, it`s blowing up all over social media. You`ll see in the upcoming vine videos is Lebroning. Now, we all know Lebron James from the Miami Heat. But also, he`s notorious for flopping. That`s falling down intentionally to draw a foul. So, now, Lebroning is the new flopping. And people, Dr. Drew, are doing it everywhere on unsuspecting strangers. I think it`s hilarious.
BARBERIE: I think it`s hilarious, too.
HUTT: I`m doing it tomorrow.
SCHACHER: And it`s true. I mean, Lebron does do this. A lot of NBA players do this.
PINSKY: Mike, thoughts?
CATHERWOOD: I love it. It`s the best.
CATHERWOOD: No one`s getting hurt in the process.
CATHERWOOD: And it makes for a funny video.
CATHERWOOD: And listen, if there`s anybody we can make fun of in that way that won`t damage his ego, it`s Lebron James. Give me a break.
BARBERIE: Yes, exactly.
BARBERIE: No victim, no crime, silly, it`s funny.
PINSKY: What else you got, Sam?
SCHACHER: OK. So, the second video, just imagine, Dr. Drew, that you`re walking down the street and then you`re lured by a baby crying, OK, and then --
SCHACHER: This is from a stroller, too, Dr. Drew that looks like it`s unattended. And people have no idea that this is a promotional gag for an upcoming horror film.
SCHACHER: They have no idea what`s going on. They see a baby cry. It`s unsuspecting. It`s crazy. Hilarious.
BARBERIE: The baby looks like Chuckie.
PINSKY: I think I might have --
SCHACHER: Jenny, you could have seen this.
HUTT: I know, I`m so upset that I didn`t. I love this baby.
PINSKY: It actually seems dangerous, that you could give somebody like a -- they could fall or --
PINSKY: Well, there you go.
HUTT: It`s hilarious.
SCHACHER: It`s so great.
SCHACHER: There it is. Yes.
CATHERWOOD: That`s a cremasteric response, right?
PINSKY: Let me straighten out what the cremasteric response is. It does create a little cremasteric response. It`s for the gentlemen -- what happens when you jump into cold water or when you see something dangerous coming your way, the body has a way of -- the cremasteric muscles contract and there`s a specific reaction. Mike, you know what I`m talking about?
CATHERWOOD: Cream muscles? I`m right with you there, you know?
CATHERWOOD: I rented cremasteric response the other day.
PINSKY: We`re finally going to get to the guy who`s getting --
CATHERWOOD: -- European film very avant-garde.
PINSKY: There he is. We`re going to find out what happens to him. Does he make it in the pool? Don`t go away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are they ready?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not going to make it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it that far?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll show you how far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got to do something! I`m filming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to try.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can die.
HUTT: What is wrong with people?
BARBERIE: Cringe movie.
PINSKY: It`s back with Jenny Hutt, Sam, Mike, and Jillian. Mike, am I detecting in those gentlemen, are they Australian? Is that what I`m hearing?
CATHERWOOD: They have to be. Their whole country was based on drug and (ph) pranks, right? That`s what Australians are supposed to do. There`s a reason why they always dominated the X-games.
PINSKY: So, Sam, showing video --
CATHERWOOD: Yes. I know, you ladies are confused right now. I know it. I have to take over and tell you. I know you ladies are confused right now but men have to know their limitations. And some guys, myself included, we`re not working with a lot up here. So, all we can do is entertain our friends and do stuff for video cameras. That`s it.
PINSKY: No, he`s right. I know women shake their head. The guy`s saying, well, you got to go because I`m filming. You might die, but I`m filming.
HUTT: You might die!
BARBERIE: It`s crazy.
PINSKY: Glory, though, glory, though, Jenny Hutt.
BARBERIE: It makes you cringe, but the thing is, part of me said, you know what, then do it, you goof, because if you end up breaking your neck, it`s your fault and you`re an idiot for trying this, you know? But the whole time I was freaking out and thinking I hope he makes it.
PINSKY: You`re right, Mike, she doesn`t understand. But Sam, take us --
SCHACHER: Should we watch the video?
SCHACHER: Yes. OK. Let`s watch the video because this video I call death wish, and it gives me a whole lot of anxiety, him up top, concrete below. Will he jump or not? The video was sent up on YouTube by junk in and here he is contemplating.
BARBERIE: Oh, my gosh.
SCHACHER: My gosh! He is one lucky --
BARBERIE: Lucky guy.
SCHACHER: -- SOB.
BARBERIE: And he`s so stupid.
BARBERIE: Thank you.
PINSKY: Watch the screen grab, you get to see how close his head get to the side.
PINSKY: There is his head near the edge. But mike, you can relate. You never did any screwy things like that.
CATHERWOOD: What? Are you kidding me? Dr. Drew, do I need to remind you that I cost myself a job in television, a good one, because I burned my anus trying to light a fart on fire?
HUTT: Oh, come one!
BARBERIE: You know what, they should have given you a show for that. Nowadays, they`d give you a show.
SCHACHER: Like "Jackass." Exactly.
PINSKY: Sam, what is neck nominating? Explain that -- we`re trying to understand --
SCHACHER: Oh my goodness!
PINSKY: This neck nominating thing.
SCHACHER: This is -- neck nominating is actually pretty dangerous. This is a social media drinking game. And what happens is the concept of this game is you want to pound drinks, pound shots while filming yourself doing something really extreme, and then you post that video on social media and then you nominate a friend to do the same thing.
And where this gains some concern is that not only are some of these stunts dangerous, but it kind of ups the ante for peer pressure because it is on a public social media level. It`s crazy.
PINSKY: I don`t understand. A lot of this stuff tonight I don`t understand. For some reason, this hooks in with the porn stuff for me, because -- well, because what Mike was saying, we don`t know the full impact of these high levels of stimulation and these extreme activities. I just don`t know what it means. Anybody have any theory. What?
BARBERIE: It`s the internet. And I just got a tweet from a woman saying, you know, I don`t know how you`re so cool about letting people watch pornography. I`ve never been affected by this. Whatever floats your boat, floats your boat.
I`m not in competition with these women. But this woman said it ruined her marriage because her husband watched it all the time and she couldn`t compete with these women with their fake breasts and their perfectly whatever -- and for her, she`s like I`m a real woman. I have kids. It`s a nightmare. I understand that.
And so, I think that that -- the expectations now for men are almost like you have to be a barbie doll in order to get these guys off as opposed to a real woman and I think that that intimidation --
PINSKY: No, I`m not sure that`s true.
BARBERIE: Well, for some men.
BARBERIE: And that`s in the woman`s mind.
CATHERWOOD: There`s a -- yes, and I can -- by the way, I certainly can`t empathize but I can sympathize with women how they would feel like they can`t compete with the women in porn. But a lot of times, at least for guys who have a good grasp on what pornography and masturbation is all about. It really does serve with completely different purpose than like real --
BARBERIE: It`s stress release, right? Mike, it`s stress release. I know.
HUTT: It`s --
CATHERWOOD: It is. I mean, for a guy, it`s really unfortunately much like you`re an Asian (ph). It`s just like I`ve got to do it or else there`s going to be a problem.
PINSKY: Let`s release the panel.
PINSKY: "Last Call" goes to Wendy Williams BFF, Jenny Hutt.
HUTT: I was just going to say, Dr. Drew, to me, I feel like sex with women is always something emotional so I`m surprised that Jennie could get off from watching "Law and Order" because I can touch myself --
PINSKY: The addiction is typically in women who had severe childhood sexual trauma. Think about that. "What Would You Do" begins now.