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"Demon Assassins" Charged in Case; Sex Abuse Victim Seeks Justice on YouTube
Aired January 21, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, murder by exorcism, the 911 calls.
CALLER: This morning when I just take my kids to school, I saw the knife with blood outside.
PINSKY: Did neighbor`s concerns save two children from slaughter?
Then, is YouTube where crime victims get justice?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You should be ashamed and so disgusted with yourself.
PINSKY: A woman confronts a woman online that she claims abused her. Hear from her in the behavior bureau.
And, Justin Bieber drops $75,000 in a strip club.
Plus, crack mayor at it again.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM radio, Jenny Hutt.
And, Jenny, behind you there, we are seeing evidence of what`s happening in New York. They have declared a state of emergency because of all that snow we`re looking at the Columbus Circle behind you. It is beautiful, but it`s a nuisance.
HUTT: It`s beautiful. There is going to be like a foot of snow, and I just want to get into my bed and binge eat, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: OK. Well, I`m sorry to interrupt that, Jenny. We`ve got some important business to get to. But thank you for showing us a live footage of behind you of what is going on right at Columbus Circle. It`s just spectacular.
All right. First up, here`s what we are going to do, we`re going to hear the 911 calls from the exorcism case as we`re calling it. A mother of four accused of stabbing her youngest two children to death, and severely injuring the other two. Cops say that she believed they were possessed by the devil.
Come on now. Now, I wonder if you watch this. Let`s set it up with this first. Watch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gruesome discovery of two children who appear to have been deceased.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a sickening story of Zakieya Avery is accused stabbing her children, 1-year-old son and 2-year-old daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their two older siblings, ages 5 and 8, are fighting for their lives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The second woman who police say live at the home, 21-year-old Monifa Stanford (ph), is also charged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the women believed they were performing an exorcism.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They used a knife to cut the demon of that child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s part of an attempt to get the devil out of them.
PINSKY: That is severe psychotic thinking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The women met recently at a German town charge. Avery and Sanford left the church and started calling themselves the demon assassins. Avery has a long history of mental illness, including at least two hospitalizations.
PINSKY: Greg Grunberg, actor in "Big Ass Spider", Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, Carrie Keagan, pop culture expert, and Sean Klitzner, actor and comedian.
And before we go to my panel, I want to hear more from Jean Casarez on the phone with the latest.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, we are learning more about the alleged state of mind of these two women. I spoke at the Montgomery County, Maryland Police today, and they tell me that this mother has started a group and I put that in quote marks from her church called demon`s assassins. And this is a group of four, including the mother, who is the commander, her friend who is now charged as the co- defendant, as the sergeant, and then two men. And police have not found these men yet.
This is a group that they say they organized out of their church so that evil would not take over people`s lives. They wanted to work to get rid of the devil and the evil spirits.
Now, the church that she had gone to, and she had not been there for two to three months is (INAUDIBLE) ministry. I called today to see if they had a comment. There was no answer. They have not given me a comment.
We know this is not a group directly associated with the church, but I was told that the pastor knew about it, but he did not take any credence to it.
PINSKY: Well, Jean, thank you for the update.
How could we not understand when somebody who has severe mental illness and become dangerously ill, why don`t we identify this?
Now, a neighbor the night before called 911, this is a night before the fatal attack, because one of the toddlers had been left alone in the car. Listen to this call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OPERATOR: What`s the emergency?
CALLER: I have a baby in a car that has been here for about 45 minutes.
You need to back up off me, ma`am.
OK, I`m getting ready to be -- I`m being attacked by two females.
OPERATOR: OK. Why are they attacking you?
CALLER: Because they came to check on the baby out here.
OPERATOR: OK. Where are the ladies now, sir?
CALLER: They are still chasing my down.
OPERATOR: They are still chasing you down?
CALLER: Yes. They are walking after me.
You need to back up off of me, ma`am. That is my business. Kid in the car for an hour is my business. The baby in the car for an hour is my business.
She seems to be responding to internal stimuli.
OPERATOR: When you said she responds to internal stimuli, what does that mean, sir?
CALLER: She is talking to herself.
OPERATOR: She is what?
CALLER: Talking to herself.
OPERATOR: Is she doing anything, like trying to touch you or anything like that?
CALLER: Yes, she is raising her hand like she is about to grab me.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINKSY: Thank God for that guy. He knew exactly what he was talking about, Jenny.
He -- responding to internal stimuli means hallucinating, and why didn`t anybody else see that?
All right. Listen, Greg, what do you say?
GREG GRUNBERG, ACTOR: Well, I don`t understand, didn`t the police respond to his call at all? Or he made that call, and she obviously, the 911 operator was trying to justify getting them out there. She was trying to say, are you really in trouble and something to call the police on.
But yes, we should investigate these things -- not saying that the 911 operator should have known that it could have escalated to this point.
And also, these four people in this group, psychotic behavior with one person is one thing, but four people validating that she`s going to do this to the her child is sickening, and absolutely sick evening.
PINSKY: That`s my point. Why don`t we recognize this and call it out for what it is.
Carrie Keagan, welcome to the program, and a light hearted spirited romp tonight.
Go ahead. What are your thoughts?
CARRIE KEAGAN, POP CULTURE EXPERT: I think that, you know, in all good spirits, these two women are giving the exorcists a bad name, and it does not have to end this way.
No, but in reality, I mean, obviously, something went seriously wrong with the whole system, whether it`d be the neighborhood system or the church is system or the police system in general. Two kids died, two other kids got hurt, and something is wrong, and obviously, we need to start pay better attention to what`s happening around us.
PINSKY: It`s very much the point, and we have been reporting on these kinds of stories on multiple evenings of the show.
And, Jenny, that is the refrain every night, and there is a guy who knew what he with was talking about and attempted to intervene and not enough people came in or why we as a community can`t identify these things and refer them?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes, but, Dr. Drew, what I don`t understand is why after he said the baby has been left unattended for an hour in the vehicle, why that was not enough to get the police there? There was a lot that he said.
PINSKY: Anahita, tell us that part of the story. Go ahead.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORENY: Actually, the police did show up, but by the time they got to the scene, they said that there was no one there. They went and knock on the door. And clearly, this lady wasn`t opening her door. So, they had no probable cause to enter her home.
And, Dr. Drew, you just mentioned this, this is now the third story that we have covered in a week and a half of mothers killing children -- clearly, this woman was insane. She was crazy. No sane human being stabs and kills her own children and says she is performing some type of exorcism.
GRUNBERG: But, Anahita, she did not do it alone. She had somebody with her.
PINSKY: That`s what drives me insane is the people go, the devil. I understand, you think that the devil is in your children, OK, we can`t say anything about that, and three other people who believe that, and you sit around and figure out what you`re going to do with that, as opposed to going, oh, my God, you shouldn`t have children around you guys?
GRUNBERG: Plus, these morons, Dr. Drew, they learned this from somewhere. Somebody at the church, I mean, I`m not blaming the church, but where do they get this information? Why do they think that this was a way to solve their problems?
SEDAGHATFAR: Wait, why are blaming the church? Dr. Drew, hold on --
PINSKY: Not blaming the church, identify it as a problem.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. Dr. Drew, has anyone asked where the father of the children is in this entire situation? Where are her family and her friends? I mean, this woman clearly had mental issues. They knew about it. She`s been institutionalized involuntarily at least once. You just mentioned. Has anyone stop to say, why in the world does this woman have custody of four her children? That she`s going around --
PINSKY: Sean, have at it.
SEAN KLITZNER, ACTOR: This is a clearly a case of hindsight is 20/20. Everybody here is jumping on the bandwagon of she was clearly ill. If you hear the guy -- first of all, if you hear the guy`s phone call, he actually does not sound like the guy, and he does not sound like he is in control talking to the 911 operator.
GRUNBERG: What are you talking about?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, he does!
KLITZNER: Listen to it back. He is kind of like up in the air.
GRUNBERG: What are you saying? That`s insane. You are crazy. You are crazy.
GRUNBERG: No, that doesn`t make any sense. This guy was absolutely - -
SEDAGHATFAR: She has been institutionalized more than one time for the mental problems, and she was institutionalized more than one time for the mental problems, and that is the thing.
KLITZNER: And to be jumbled on the phone, and to be honest, the most shocking part of the case is that it did not take place in Florida. That`s the bottom line.
PINSKY: That is the most shocking part.
PINSKY: Yes, Sean. Touche, Sean, touche.
KLITZNER: But in all seriously, the exorcism with the knife, clearly it was wrong. No exorcism has knives involved in any sort of practice that they do. So, she`s clearly wrong with this.
But the truth is that I don`t think that she did anything so drastic in her past that police would be rushing to her door saying she is about to the kill four people.
SEDAGHATFAR: And what about the husband and the family? That`s what I`m thinking, Dr. Drew, when I hear about this.
PINSKY: The husband recently left, apparently. And, of course, this woman was increasingly in distress. She probably had chronic mental illness. She was placed in a hold again. She was probably psychotic at least on one other occasion.
My thing is that always, when people have severe illness and likely to hurt themselves or other people, why can`t we require them to take care of their condition if they are going to be in school, parents, and you know, that sort of thing.
GRUNBERG: But don`t you believe they got this information, this misinformation, this insanity from somewhere? This woman is a complete moron. She is doing something that is absolutely ridiculous to anyone else who is a normal person in society. And she had to have gotten this information, this kooky stuff from somewhere.
PINSKY: You`re right to that, and again, we`ve got to wonder where that came from.
Carrie, last thoughts?
KEAGAN: I mean, all of this stuff is very -- everything that you`re saying, that everybody is saying is very true. But it`s very slippery slope when we start now like being big brother to everybody. We have to be very careful, who we are watching, how we are watching, and in this particular scenario, it is a horrible end, but it is a slippery slope.
PINSKY: Carrie, I have to be honest, welcome to the program again. My earpiece which I could hear you through completely went out when what you were saying.
PINSKY: And the rest of you will have to keep quiet, because I`m going to have to go to break, I have a big technical break here.
Next, the woman who confronted her alleged sex abuser explains why she decided to go public on YouTube.
And later, we have new video of Toronto`s crack mayor. What is he doing now? You don`t want to miss it. I promised, he`d be back. He is back with more, because you can`t stay sober for long when you are a binge alcoholic like he is.
Back after this.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt.
And, Jenny, I`ve got a tweet here flying out of our last segment. Here it is. It is from Kay Matthews. And it says, "How is society allowing two females who are insane take care of children? After the 911 call, they should have been hospitalized."
You know, and, Jenny, Carrie has a great point and this is what we are hearing about over and over again is inadequate mental health resources from mental health, not enough beds, not enough access, not enough insurance resources, and we`re just going to hear more of these stories, the more of this stuff goes unattended.
HUTT: Yes. I thought that caller was extremely lucid, going back to the last panel, Dr. Drew. I thought he was really clear with what was going on and he was watching.
PINSKY: All right. News story, we are learning about the alleged sexual relationship between a 12-year-old girl and her former female teacher. The alleged victim, who is now a young woman, explains why she posted this phone confrontation on YouTube. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To protect other kids, because she should not be around anyone`s kids.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Going public is not necessarily the best therapeutic thing for the young girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You ruined my life. You ruined my childhood.
My contact with her didn`t end until after I was 18 years old. There was no apology. I didn`t hear remorse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The young woman was hitting her on the head with it so much that she said, I don`t know how it happened, but I think she does.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She threatened me with her life multiple times. She said that she would kill herself if I ever left. I think other people are going to be coming forward.
PINSKY: Video is nearing half a million views tonight.
Bringing up the behavior bureau. Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, Leanne Tweeden, social commentator, Jennifer Keitt, life coach, radio host, and Erica America, Z100 radio host and psychotherapist.
If you would like to join this conversation, tweet us right now. I`m watching the Twitter feed @DrDrewHLN, #behaviorbureau.
But, first up, I want to hear from investigative reporter Michael Linder from 790 KABC. He joins us.
Michael, what is the latest?
MICHAEL LINDER, 790 KABC (via telephone): Well, the latest is that this woman who calls herself Jamie had 15 years of pain and recrimination by making a nine-minute video on YouTube entitled, "A call to my childhood rapist teacher." Now, this led to an apparent admission and a quick resignation by that former teacher, who had been serving as a school administrator.
Jamie says the abuse begun when she was 12. It continued until she was over 18, reinforced by threats. And in spite of allegations against the teacher in 1999, though, no action was taken.
And she did it now because she is a mom with kids of her own and wants to make sure that the teacher cannot work with children again. She is considering a lawsuit, because the statute of limitations in her case may have expired, but she is firmly convinced that there are other alleged victims, and she is urging them to come forward, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Michael, thank you so much for that report.
And just a reminder to our viewers, we will have this young woman you`re seeing in that video, Jamie, on our program tomorrow evening, exclusively.
Judy Ho, I have not heard from you yet on this topic. What do you feel about her confronting this woman on a video? It felt like -- in my sense, let me just say, before you answer, is that oftentimes confronting an accuser can go wrong. It seems like this in case, this may have worked for her.
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, Dr. Drew. And we saw on the clip where Wendy Walsh actually talks about how she thought it may not have been the best idea therapeutically, and I disagree. I think that it was great for her therapeutically. If you see the video, she was empowered. She finally got to say the things that she what to say. Those emotions were raw and she was dealing with it.
And you know what the problem is, Dr. Drew, our system biases against the women in the way that we are more lenient towards them. We don`t believe they are perpetrators. In fact, 86 percent of people don`t believe that a woman would have aggressed on the victim.
So, that does not encourage people to come forward when this is actually the truth. So, I really commend this young woman.
PINSKY: You are absolutely right.
And, Erica America, I don`t know if you are recording an album or something. I am looking in the background where you are, I don`t know what`s going on there. But I think some of what Judy is referring, what she is referring to is the fact that these women usually regress against men, I think when they aggress against women, somehow it`s like, this is something we`re going to get, pay attention to.
I lost Erica.
Jennifer Keitt, what do you say to that?
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I am only concerned. I applaud her being empowered, I want her to be empowered. But I am concerned on calling somebody out on YouTube. I am concerned when we start to have all the systems, fail us. Her friends failed her, other teachers failed her, her friends, her family, that whole circle failed her for 18 years, and now, she is calling out on YouTube.
I`m concerned that we use that as a social medium for healing. I just think that so much could have gone wrong in that regard. Suppose she was wrong, suppose that was not the person, and I`m concerned with the vehicle for which she got there.
PINSKY: Jennifer, I agree with you. And, Jenny, I`m going to go to you, because I see the incredulity on your face.
HUTT: Yes, I know, I know.
PINSKY: The fact, I think Jennifer`s point is well-taken, which is the fact that she was so desperate that led to the move.
HUTT: Well, that`s the thing, and kudos to her that she was strong enough to do what she need to do. I feel this was an effective means to take care of herself by using YouTube, by talking to people who would listen and of course, she knew who was the abuser was, it was six years, allegedly, of systemic abuse. That`s --
HUTT: And think of the people who failed her.
KEITT: But you can`t use social media as a weapon to begin to bring people to justice and so, to me, we failed so many people, failed her along the way. She had 18 years to be empowered.
PINSKY: Yes, Erica America, I think we`ve got you now. Now that the soundboard has linked you in from your album recording studio, where you are there, or music store --
ERICA AMERICA, Z100: I`m actually at my home, because the weather is so bad here in New York, I couldn`t get to the studio. So, that`s, you know, the background here.
But, yes. So, I think in this case, the YouTube, it worked to her advantage, but she shouldn`t have had to do that -- meaning that one of the reasons she had to do it was because she was afraid the statute of limitations was up, and that is atrocious, because there should be no statute of limitations involving sexual abuse, because the very nature of the crime is that someone will hold it in and they`re very shameful about it. It will take years and years for a child to come out about this.
PINSKY: And in fact, in Canada, they don`t have a statute like that.
But, Leanne, imagine that your young son, you have a 1-year-old or not even one yet?
LEANNE TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: No, 4 1/2 months.
PINSKY: But imagine, you are taking the child to preschool, and one of the people that you trust and -- by the way, I am brought to tears with my respect and admiration with the teachers who helped my kids, because it is an essential part of their upbringing, but for the people who violate the trust, it`s a profound violation.
TWEEDEN: It is. And you know why, because the teachers have so, they spend so much time with the children, and from the very impressionable age, up until they`re 18, when we consider them adults. And this woman to abuse this girl and to, you know, say, I`m going to kill myself if you tell somebody, I`m the only one who loves you.
I mean, she, obviously, physically and emotionally abuse her. She would take her out of town to have sex with her. And this girl felt like she had nowhere to go.
Now, it reminds me of the cases of young boys that were abused by their priests, that they didn`t come out -- you know, people are saying, why didn`t you come out right away to the young woman. But think of how traumatized you are when you don`t know what you are going through as a child.
PINSKY: The kids feel like it`s their fault, that they are ashamed, they`re responsible, they brought this on. And, look, let me put up a tweet from our viewers. The viewers are pretty clear on this one.
This is from Melissa, good for her to put it on line. It was a great move and powerful move, #behaviorbureau.
TWEEDEN: And, Dr. Drew, I think the reason she found the power to come out now is because she had a child the same age as what she was when she started being abused and that is a powerful thing.
PINSKY: Well, do not watch out on a mom on a roll. You guys are fearless.
PINSKY: Next up, it is only a matter of time before my dear friend, the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford was caught on camera doing something that he had to splain. He had some explaining to do once again. Again, binge alcoholics don`t stay sober for long without treatment.
And later, did Justin Bieber just spend $75,000 on a strip club in one night in $1 bills apparently. You`ll hear that story and more after this.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt, and our behavior bureau, Judy, Leann, Jennifer and Erica America.
Toronto`s crack mayor admits he had a few drinks last night, and last time we talked, Rob Ford said that he had not had a drop of alcohol since November 1st, but that ended.
And this video was posted on YouTube last night. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROB FORD, TORONTO MAYOR: (INAUDIBLE) chased me around for five months. I said, oh, my God. (INAUDIBLE)
We`re counter-surveiling the guy, you know what I mean? He`s hiding here. I`m hide here. (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
You know how much money that costs?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Was he goofing around with Jamaican accent?
He says he had a couple of beers with friends.
Judy, I know you`re not surprised.
HO: Oh, yes, and the wheels on the bus go round and round, right, Dr. Drew? It`s a cycle that just keeps repeating.
But here`s the thing that I have about the mayor and I am not asking for people to give him sympathy.
But, you know, he is a huge time self-sabotager, and people might think that maybe this is a narcissism thing. But you know what`s behind most of the narcissists is really low self-e esteem. So, they have to really reach and try to get that sympathy, that care from people, to feel good about themselves. And people keep rescuing him, so he keeps doing it. He`s getting validated for this.
PINSKY: I like the psychodynamic explanation, but, Erica America, he likes alcohol, and he likes to drink, and he just wants to drink, bottom line.
AMERICA: First, I want to say I just want to thank you for bringing up a lighter story, because it is death and heartbreak and parenting killing their children.
AMERICA: But this is funny right now. It`s comedic. What happens when he gets the behind the wheel, if somebody gets hurt. So, this is obviously a cascading, you know, a lapse of behaviors that is going over and over again. I think this is not going to end anywhere good.
PINSKY: Well, yes, you`re point is well-taken. It`s a progressive illness, alcoholism, and it`s marked by consequences, and those consequences are inevitable as long as people maintain relationship with the substance.
And, by the way, he keeps making a point about I didn`t do drugs, I just drank.
Alcohol is a drug. I don`t know why we can`t get that out of our heads. Alcohol is a drug.
OK, now, and despite his addiction, his questionable behavior, though, he has plenty of fans. I want to show you the rest of his conversation with his fans that ran into him at a fast food place called Steak Queen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FORD: Noo. Money, money, money. And you know, I am going to I swear to God, man, honestly, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is to go, man.
FORD: It`s serious (EXPLETIVE DELETED) man, serious (EXPLETIVE DELETED) bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All we know is that we have the best mayor in the world, man. This guy deserves to be even better than Prime Minister Harper.
FORD: No, no. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I`m a straight up guy, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The Toronto native, the Toronto citizens love his politics, the young people love him.
Jennifer Keitt, the fact that they`re giving him all this passes could really harm this man.
KEITT: I don`t -- it could harm him eventually. But, Dr. Drew, to be honestly with you, I have a crazy uncle just like that. So, the reality of it is, he has got this likable kind of charm. I predict he might just be Toronto`s mayor one more time, and as crazy as that sounds, I don`t know if that is going to necessarily -- I`m going to see him in six feet under?
KEITT: Or is he going to rise to superstardom? I don`t know.
PINSKY: Well, Leeann, I think -- I think, Jennifer is right. I think he will be because of his politics, and because he`s an effective administrator, he could well be mayor. But the problem is, he needs to handle his health -- Leeann.
TWEEDEN: But, first all, I`ve never seen anybody act that crazy on a couple of beers, first of all. Let`s get that out of the way. Either he has more serious problem or there were other things involved just besides beer.
The second thing I have an issue with, I said this before on your show, he should just have his own reality show, he should get out of politics, he doesn`t need to be dealing with taxpayers` money, and being involved in making law and doing things like that.
But the other problem is that he is enabled. The person who is closest to him, his brother, who is his campaign manager, is in denial. I saw the video, but I can`t even. I don`t think that was him last night. He is making excuses. He`s not getting him help.
And if he is not going to get help, one of my friends, Dr. Drew, is Tom Arnold. He said the first thing you have to do is acknowledged we have a problem and get help. And you have to surround yourself with people who will constantly be there to help you if you do think about falling off the wagon. And it`s a tough thing and it`s a daily thing. And he needs help.
PINSKY: It is really tough and it is -- people forget, addiction is a fatal illness. A fatal illness commonly. Now, we reached to Mayor Ford`s office. They have not responded to our request for a comment. He did take questions from reporters about the video. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you drinking last night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were drinking last night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kind of bit, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think that video was insensitive to people?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I was with friends and I do -- personal friends
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- has nothing to do with you guys --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, if you remember, when he said he wasn`t drinking and he was on a diet, his face was less plethoric. There was -- that redness and bloating. These are all signs, stigmata we call it alcoholism. His brother -- as you mentioned, Leeann, his brother, Doug Ford, told reporters the video had to be old because the mayor had lost so much weight recently, and then of course, hours later, Ford admitting that the video was --
TWEEDEN: And did you notice, the person taking the video was hiding behind the wall, almost like as if, I got you. I`ve got you. I`m going to post this, you know? It`s kind of weird.
PINSKY: It`s all --
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: But Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: What I thought was interesting was this time, when he was doing sort of that mea culpa thing --
HUTT: -- he didn`t seem nearly as angry with the press. He actually seemed embarrassed this time.
PINSKY: You`re right. That`s a good point.
HUTT: -- hasn`t seen that way.
PINSKY: He seemed -- contrite and worried about himself like, oh my God! I thought I had this thing leaked. I thought -- it`s a common thing for alcoholic, and Erica America, I`m going to bring this comment you is that the shame and guilt that alcoholics feel when they relapse makes them use more. It`s not a good thing. People think, oh, we should shame them because if you shame them, that will motivate them not to do it, but it turns out, it has have the opposite effect. Erica?
ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO & TV HOST: Yes, absolutely. And I`m just afraid where this is going to go. I know that he does have supporters like in the video, because people love a train wreck. Of course, I mean, look at so many people, Britney, Lindsey, they love to see it. But when it ends badly, it`s not good for them or anyone.
PINSKY: Judy, your thoughts?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, he is very, very different from any other politician that we know of. He is a person that`s kind of coming forward and he`s a different face and people like it. It`s a different idea. So, people are going to keep feeding it, because they`d like seeing a mayor that`s a little bit off. As we talked about before, people like it when somebody has a little bit of fault, and there`s a little bit problem with them because then we`d like them better. They`re more personable.
PINSKY: That is the banana peel effect.
HO: That`s right.
PINSKY: Let`s leave it there. Next up, Justin Bieber`s bad with behavior. Did he actually spend $75,000 at a Miami strip club?
PINSKY: And later, we begin our new series called "Hooked: Celebrity Narcissism." We`re starting with Madonna who dropped the N-word on Instagram, perhaps, in a fit of empathic failure. We`ll be right back.
PINSKY (voice-over): Justin Bieber, the egg-throwing allegation, perhaps, just the tip of the iceberg.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When cops went in there that, it was a treasure trove of just drugs and other paraphernalia in there. The glass cookie jars that were full of weeds, three bongs and the smoking room, four to five empty codeine bottles which you obviously -- from.
PINSKY: -- drinking cough syrup --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It can hurt him. It can cause seizures. It can kill him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why isn`t there anyone around him helping to govern him? He`s 19 years old.
PINSKY (on-camera): Back with Jenny Hutt, Greg, Carrie, Anahita, and Sean. And Justin Bieber cannot stay out of the news lately, Jenny, what do you know about it?
HUTT: So, this is what I know. In addition to the whole C-syrup, weed, ecstasy, and everything else that they found, now, he`s spending his money in strippers. $75,000 allegedly he spent in a strip club in Miami all singles, Dr. Drew. So, I guess, he is supporting the economy?
PINSKY: And just imagine, Jenny, you`re a stripper, and Justin Bieber is there throwing out $75,000 in ones?
HUTT: I am grossed out, because to me, he`s an infant.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He`s making it rain, Dr. Drew. It`s called making it rain with the dollar bills.
PINSKY: Thanks, Anahita.
PINSKY: I had no idea what that was. Thank you so much for straightening that out. Greg, go ahead.
GREG GRUNBERG, ACTOR: Yes, I got to say, you`re 19. You`re worth 100 and something million dollars. You`re really good-looking, super talented, you know, musician. This is exactly what you should be doing. I`m proud of this kid.
GRUNBERG: And by the way, if I was in that strip club, if I was in that strip club and I saw Justin Bieber doing exactly that, I`d have my clothes off so fast, that kid would have the best table dance of his life.
GRUNBERG: Seventy-five grand!
CARRIE KEAGAN, @ CARRIEKEAGAN: Here`s the deal, you guys, we should just be happy that he wasn`t using loonies and toonies, because those girls would have gotten hurt.
PINSKY: Wooh! Sean, what do you say?
SEAN KLITZNER, ACTOR & COMEDIAN: Well, I agree with Greg here, you know, and that`s a rarity here on this show, but the reason is is because we`re dealing with a 19-year-old who actually has that fantasy that nobody else gets. You know, when anybody else is 19, you`ve got to take a playboy and hide it from your parents or you got to wait until your roommate goes to class so that you can do your business in your dorm room. Justin Bieber gets to spend $75,000 on his hormones. Congratulations, buddy.
GRUNBERG: Now, I have to say that, though, this is $75,000, OK?
GRUNBERG: If you destroy $20,000 or $30,000 worth of venetian plaster, apparently. You know, he actually threw the eggs at my really good friend, Jeff Schwartz` (ph) at his house. So, you know, I think you should save your money. You bailed your buddy out twice that night, right, Dr. Drew. His buddy got busted twice.
GRUNBERG: So, instead of making it rain, I think he should, you know, really kind of save your money. But this guy is worth so much money.
SEDAGHATFAR: If -- OK, Greg, I sort of agree with you that he`s an 18-year-old --
PINSKY: Anahita, hold on. Anahita, I got to interrupt you. We`re looking at a high-tech animation --
PINSKY: The problem with strip rumination (ph) is I still have emblazoned in my head the idea of Greg doing a dance for $75,000 --
GRUNBERG: By the way, seriously, that guy throws eggs like a robot girl. Look at that. It`s ridiculous.
PINSKY: Anahita, you were trying to --
SEDAGHATFAR: What I was trying to say was aside from the fact that that`s a horrible animation is that, yes, maybe if Justin Bieber wasn`t facing felony vandalism charges, if he wasn`t facing jail time one to three years, if they didn`t find drugs and drug paraphernalia all over his house, then maybe it`s OK that he`s going to a strip club making it rain.
GRUNBERG: That`s ridiculous.
SEDAGHATFAR: He doesn`t understand the gravity of the problems he`s facing, Dr. Drew. He shouldn`t be out partying it up when you`re seriously facing jail time. This is a felony.
KLITZNER: What do you mean? He`s not seriously facing jail time.
GRUNBERG: Yes, he is. He absolutely is.
KLITZNER: Because he`s Justin Bieber, he`s one of the most followed people on Twitter. He ain`t going to go to jail.
GRUNBERG: From what I understand, they`re analyzing the footage. His own surveillance footage could get him in trouble. It could also exonerate him, but at the same time, from what I have heard and I consider myself a good source in this is that there were multiple eggs hitting the house. It wasn`t like -- and then you could see from that animation, he doesn`t have a very good arm.
So, to throw that many eggs at the same time, that means the security guards, his buddy, you know, the guy that was caught with the drugs, I think they were all doing it. They were all throwing the eggs. And by the way, he wasn`t even throwing it from his property from what I understand. I think -- he was trespassing.
PINSKY: We got to get -- Anahita, you`re a defense attorney.
SEDAGHATFAR: I know.
PINSKY: I mean, would he have a defense or could he buy his way out of this thing?
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, I mean, I certainly agree, Dr. Drew, to a certain extent that he`s a multimillionaire. He`s probably hired the best lawyers in L.A. And actually, I don`t know why he didn`t call me.
SEDAGHATFAR: So, realistically, you know, he should have. Biebs, call me if you don`t have a lawyer yet. But, realistically, you know, he can plead this out if they do charge this as a felony, there is a chance he won`t get jail time. He`ll likely try to negotiate something he`s paying some type of fine and getting probation, because he does have the money to hire the best lawyers, and sadly, that is how our criminal justice system works.
But, the fact is that the police are taking this incident very seriously. They showed up with 11 cop cars when they went to execute that search warrant last week. So, I think they`re taking this very seriously in light of the fact that he has been in so much trouble, and the cops haven`t been able to get him on anything, because they haven`t had the evidence.
PINSKY: Hang on Greg. Carrie, I want you to finish this up with this. You`ve been with VH1 for a long time. Did you ever have any of sort of interaction with Justin or his people, and does this sort of progression surprise you again given the interaction you have with people in the music industry or him?
KEAGAN: No. I mean, none of it is surprising. And at the end of the day, I think the reason why he went and rained $75,000 on these girls was to get everybody to start talking about this and stop talking about all of the other stuff that he`s been doing. Unfortunately, it`s not work on this show.
PINSKY: Well, because Greg screwed it all up by talking about him dancing for the $75,000.
GRUNBERG: That`s the better visual than that thing you had.
PINSKY: It`s better than the animation. It`s just more disturbing.
PINSKY: And a reminder, you can find us on Instagram anytime @DrDrewHLN. We`ll be right back with more after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUSTIN BIEBER, SINGER: You know, I`m always pretty focused before I got there. And you know, I think that tonight is going to be a great show like every other show.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justin, this way!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justin!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny and Leeann and Greg and Carrie. Justin Bieber creates a frenzy wherever he goes. And before last night strip club visit, he spent the weekend in Aspen. He posted images from the trip, including this Instagram video along with the hashtag, "worried about nothing."
HUTT: Nice --
PINSKY: He also Instagramed snowboarding video with the hashtag, "learning how to" -- oh-oh -- "ollie on a snowboard." So, it seems, Carrie, that he does not really care about -- maybe you`re right. I mean, maybe he`s just going from one thing to the next and hoping we`ll all forget about it.
KEAGAN: I mean, I think he`s got more money than God, and he`s got a lot of people watching him and looking up to him, idolizing him. He doesn`t have any worries in the world, and there`s no one making him sort of, you know, make up for anything stupid that he`s doing.
PINSKY: Jenny, what`s that?
HUTT: Yes. Everybody has worries in the world. Whenever people say he`s got more money than God, so therefore, no worries, and this is not a knock on you, I just feel like everybody is something going on underneath that shallow and superficial lots and lots of dough.
PINSKY: Leeann, are you concerned -- I`m concerned about this kid? I mean, it`s easy to point and gawk and stuff, but these behaviors and the stuff that was found in his house is starting to look serious to me. I`m concerned.
TWEEDEN: Right. And we talked about it before on this show, you know? It`s hard when you`re the breadwinner of the family to have a parent sort of parent you, which he`s 19. He`s a grown adult. He can do whatever he wants, but it seems that somebody needs to sort of pull him by the ear like I said last week. I just want to take the kid and say, you`re going down the wrong path. You`re surrounding yourself with the wrong people.
Sure, he has money. So, he doesn`t not have a lot of cares in the world. I mean, if he wants to throw away, $75,000 in the strip club, there`s nothing wrong with that. It`s stupid. You know, put that money in your retirement fund, but whatever. That`s he`s to do as he pleases. It just shows us that it`s sort of another immature thing that he`s doing in a long list of things that are not good.
PINSKY: Greg, aren`t most strip clubs 21 and over?
GRUNBERG: I believe so.
GRUNBERG: I believe so.
HUTT: My goodness.
GRUNBERG: By the way, thanks for letting me use your parking spot.
GRUNBERG: You know what, I have to say that the taunting that he`s doing, that`s not good because that`s going to come slapping him in the face, because I really do think he`s going to go down in some -- in one way or another. And if it`s just, you know, give to a charity or do something good, you know, if he has to do something like that, that`s fine, too. He needs to learn a lesson from this kind of activity, and I hope like you`re saying he does --
PINSKY: I hope.
GRUNBERG: I don`t think he needs to go the jail. I really don`t.
PINSKY: No, but I hope, Greg, it is just that that it`s some sort of a developmental issue where he`s being immature because he`s lived this extraordinary and unusual life. I`m concerned that there might be something more serious going on here. So, we`ll see more consequences.
GRUNBERG: You know, what I can`t say -- previous show is that he`s got these people around that are enabling him because they`re on his payroll.
GRUNBERG: You know, at some point, you have to say, OK, whatever I`m getting paid isn`t worth watching someone deteriorate their life.
PINSKY: I hope so. I hope so. If, indeed, he needs that kind of intervention.
Thank you, panel. Next up, we`re going to kick off our new series, "Hooked: Celebrity Narcissism." First up is Madonna and her use of racial slur on Instagram and what that maybe says about how she thinks about us and others. Back after this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. All this week, we`re taking a look at celebrity narcissism, stars who become self-preoccupied and lose empathy for others. Take a look at what Madonna posted on Instagram. It`s a picture of her son, Rocco, in a boxing ring. What got her in trouble was the hashtag which uses the "N" word.
And when her followers responded with outrage, Madonna said this, quote, "It was not meant as a racial slur. It was used as a term of endearment towards my son. I appreciate it`s a provocative word and I apologize if it gave people the wrong impression." Jenny, wow! Talk about -- failure.
HUTT: No. I love Madonna, Dr. Drew. And she`s just not a racist. She`s just not. Her kid is a hip-hop kid, Rocco -- she Has Two Black children. This is not a lady who is a racist. She`s just not. She`s Madonna. She`s awesome.
PINSKY: Well, let`s bring in the panel, Leeann, Greg and Judy.
GRUNBERG: That`s not the point.
PINSKY: Greg, go right ahead.
GRUNBERG: Yes. The point is that whether she`s a racist or not, I mean, I - absolutely, she`s not a racist. She`s incredibly talented. But, it`s -- she`s the most irresponsible mom on the planet right now.
HUTT (ph): Thank you.
GRUNBERG: I mean, to do that -- first of all, she`s very in control of her career. She didn`t get where she is today by just, you know, not knowing exactly every piece of information out there. She tweeted this or Instagramed this herself. So, she takes full responsibility for it, and the apology, I think, is kind of B.S. She should have absolutely said, I never should have said that. That`s irresponsible.
She`s targeting in Instagram, you`re targeting a very, very young audience. I`ve been attacked by joking -- you know, by saying something that I shouldn`t have said because you don`t see it in context --
GRUNBERG: You know, on Twitter. So, you`ve got to be so super careful.
PINSKY: Leeann, it`s hubristic. And Judy, I`ll give you a chance to comment of what I mean by that in a second, but Leeann have it as a mom?
TWEEDEN: Well, as a mom, but Jenny, I mean, come on. Everybody loves Madonna, but when it comes to being a parent, obviously, I never looked up to Madonna and thought she would be a great parent. I don`t care if she`s being hip-hop and she thinks she`s being cool.
TWEEDEN: But maybe even if she does have two Black children, what does that mean, that you can use it? It gives her a free pass? It`s not cool.
HUTT: No, no. I don`t think it gives her free pass. I think it was the wrong move clearly, and certainly with my children that would never be the language that I would employ or being OK with. But I don`t think that her intent was to offend even though she did offend. So, I go back to Greg. You`re right, Greg. It was irresponsible of her. I do think her apology was real. And, I think she`s done so much good for every community that she said that she`s sorry, and I let it go.
TWEEDEN: As a public figure, though, she knows exactly what her words do. She knows exactly she`s all about image. She`s all about, you know, seeing something and writing something and that she wrote D-I-S with the N- word. It`s like trying to be really cool. She`s not even speaking English, but what I hate is is that she didn`t actually apologize right away.
She tried to defend herself first and be like, oh, everybody back off. I was just kidding. And then afterwards, she wrote something else on the same photo, then she issued an apology and said, oh, I`m sorry, that bugs me.
GRUNBERG: Yes. But I have to say, I don`t think this is her trying to stay current or trying to grab attention.
PINSKY: WELL, hold on, Greg, but hold on. Judy, help me out with this because this is what narcissistic parenting is about, when you`re the cool person and the child is an extension of you and the child needs to be there to reflect perfectly back to you. Help people understand, because I`m the only published ad (ph) on celebrities and narcissism.
I was able to prove that people that seek celebrity are trying to solve an internal problem where they feel less-than and the celebrity status pumps them up, and where the liabilities come back out is in the relationships and their parenting.
HO: You`re absolutely right, Dr. Drew. And here, we see Madonna using her kids as tools for her self-promotion. I think that`s part of what you`re talking about narcissism. I mean, yes, if you search that hashtag, there are thousands of people who are non-African-American would have used that term, but Madonna is an A-list figure.
And she should be thinking about this now that she has to think about her children and the impact that she has on young people everywhere. And she`s really not considering that, because it`s really about self- glorifying, and that`s the problem that I see here. I give her an F, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Leeann, last thought.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, isn`t your book, "The Mirror Effect" all about celebrity narcissism.
PINSKY: Yes about this.
HUTT: Is this your thing?
PINSKY: No, this is exactly about this --
TWEEDEN: No, but Dr. Drew.
TWEEDEN: Can I just say this?
TWEEDEN: You`re supposed to be a mother. You`re supposed to be a parent. Not somebody`s cool friend, especially your young child.
PINSKY: Exactly right. That`s exactly right. And it`s how she got herself into trouble, and I agree with all of you, she should have had enough self-awareness to understand the impact this would have.
PINSKY: Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: It is time for our "Last Call," and what we have, Jenny, is an update on the dolphin slaughter in Japan. The annual round up is over for this year. A local fisherman who did not want to be named says fewer than 100 dolphins were killed or sold into captivity.
HUTT: There shouldn`t have been any.
PINSKY: Five hundred had been corralled into the holding pin known as the cove. Check out Jane Velez-Mitchell on HLN at 7:00 eastern time for more on the story or go to HLNTV.com. You know, this is Jane`s thing, but it`s -- I think it`s important that she brought this into a more public awareness.
HUTT: Yes, I agree. Listen, dolphins are -- they`re mammals and they`re intelligent, and they connect like human beings.
PINSKY: Right. It`s the connecting. It`s the sense of ability to have relationships and understanding others and having an emotional connection to others that really gets us. They`re not fish.
HUTT: No. And they`re so cute. I`ve got swam with them. I love the dolphin.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you all for watching. Thank you, of course, to all of my guests. Jenny, thank you, as well.
We have, coming up, the show "What Would You Do?" and it starts immediately following this program. Stay tuned.