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Woman in Picture Beaten to Death
Aired January 27, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, photo bomb killing. A woman wanders into a picture and is beaten to death. Witnesses took pictures. Why didn`t they call for help?
Then, a mom on trial for murder, leaves her little ones in a hot car. They died while she had sex. And she doesn`t deny it.
Plus, our series "Hooked" social media stars, @harto and @shannonmalcolm are here.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM radio host Jenny Hutt. And coming up, we`ve got the stars of social media. Jenny, they are great and they`re raring to go here. They`ll be on a bit later in the show.
But first, a young woman killed. This is such a tragic story, Jenny. I don`t know if you`ve heard this, but this has been all over the news here in southern California.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Of course.
PINSKY: Killed outside a nightclub. People watch and take pictures and videos as she is kicked and punched to death. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It shouldn`t have happened to her. She was an innocent bystander. Innocent person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are now two in custody, including Santa Ana resident Vanessa Zavala. Three women were involved in the street fight which resulted in the death of 23-year-old Kim Pham.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a group that was exiting and that was a group that Zavala was in. And Ms. Pham and her group were outside as they crossed paths.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Verbal altercation, which then erupted into a physical altercation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When officers arrived, they found Pham beaten and unconscious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She died Monday after being taken off life support.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "The L.A. Times" reporting that Pham accidentally stepped in front of a picture being taken.
PINSKY: Listen carefully to that video piece. It looks like that fight developed and the woman`s death was related to having photo bombed somebody`s picture.
HUTT: Right. It`s outrageous, Dr. Drew, that that would be people`s reaction to their photo being photo bombed. Have a sense of humor and grow up and don`t kill -- I don`t understand. I don`t understand what`s wrong with people.
PINSKY: Yes, we go to the panel.
Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "Your Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell", Michael Catherwood, radio and television host, my co-host on "Love Line", and Carrie Keagan, pop culture expert.
Fight was caught on cell phone videos. Take a look at this. We`ve got a little piece of video. It`s a little grainy and short but police are saying three women seen here are punching and kicking Kim Pham.
Mike, you`re here in southern California with me. You have seen this all over the -- now to connect this to, (a), photo bombing and the fact that people stood by and took pictures, stunning.
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, RADIO AND TV PERSONALITY: It really is and if you`ve ever been involved with in any type of situation where there`s a lot of violence going on with a lot of people at the same time, you realize it was incredibly disorienting and incredibly scary situation. And for this young lady to be beaten so badly that she had to be put on life support and she ended up subsequently passing away, it is an incredibly intense and violent act that these people, this group committed.
And I don`t think people can really underestimate the evil and the kind of -- the gruesome intent that these girls must have had for causing that type of damage. I mean, that is extreme.
PINSKY: And, Carrie, a photo bomb? Are we going to believe this is photo bomb or do you smell something else going on here?
CARRIE KEAGAN, POP CULTURE EXPERT: No, I mean, this very well could have been started because of a stupid photo bomb. I think people -- you know, they go out, they go drinking and al of become irresponsible of all of their actions, and they go off and do incredibly ridiculous things. And this ended so unfortunately with this woman`s death.
But I wonder where -- what is going on in the minds of all these people and all these spectators that are taping the beating going on? Where`s the security guard, the bouncer at the club? Where`s he in all of this?
PINSKY: And, Mark, I know you want to talk here. You`re the defense attorney. What possibly -- I know you`re going to tell us to wait for the facts and all that business. Let`s show the video over counselor Eiglarsh while he`s giving his defense.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, listen, I`m happy to answer your question, Drew, as long as you first acknowledge two key points. Number one, this didn`t happen in Florida, thank God.
PINSKY: Hold, hold, wait, stop. Stop. This is worthy of a moment, I`ve got to agree with you. It`s not Florida. Maybe the first time we`ve had something egregious not in Florida.
EIGLARSH: And, and --
PINSKY: We`re catching up here in southern California.
HUTT: Mazel tov.
EIGLARSH: And number two, yes, it happened in your home state of California.
PINSKY: Yes, yes.
EIGLARSH: So my question to you, why so violent over there?
PINSKY: I know. We aim to catch up with Florida. We`ve been mulling ourselves for years. We got tired of it all happening either in Germany or Florida. We went to California to be on the list.
EIGLARSH: See how I dodged the question, by the way?
PINSKY: Loni, maybe you can help me. Loni Coombs?
LONI COOMBS, AUTHOR: It`s interesting. We have to admit, honestly here, this violence between women and girls is not new and people videotaping it is not new. But I think we have got to a new low, and that is, usually, the videotape is by something who`s involved in the beating. It`s usually some type of gang or girl on girl at school.
These are bystanders. These are people who are supposedly just there at the nightclub. They don`t know what`s going on there. Instead of calling the security guard who is supposed I just on the other end of the block or yelling for help or yelling stop, they`re all pulling out their cell phones and videotaping it. We`ve now reached a new low in our inhumanity towards --
PINSKY: I have to tell you I`m going to have the behavior bureau come in and talk about that in just a second.
But, Mark, investigators say eight other people were with Kim that night. They`ve only been able to locate one. She`s refusing to talk. Mark, why aren`t the friends coming forward?
EIGLARSH: Well, nobody wants to get involved.
PINSKY: What? Their friend is killed bizarrely and they want to just -- sorry, I don`t want to get involved. That`s bizarre. But go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Because then they become witnesses and it then becomes the problem.
But here`s what I want to say -- I think this isn`t about a photo bomb, nor do I think this was about the 71-year-old former cop shooting the guy in the theater was about him missing the previews. I think it`s a lot deeper.
I think when you see that kind of anger, it`s fear turned outward whereas depression is fear turned inward. There`s an immense amount of fear with people. It just comes to a head. And this is where they lashed out. I don`t think it`s about a photo bomb.
CATHERWOOD: Dr. Drew, I have to agree with Mark. I don`t know necessarily if fear was a motive or any of that, but I do know that he`s right. This is more than just a photo bomb. I don`t think that their motives were anything that went on that night. These are incredibly insecure people.
And I`ll get back to my original point. I`ve been involved in bar fights and I`ve been involved in things that I didn`t want to be involved in, and to strike someone or to inflict that type of pain, it`s something you do reluctantly, if you have any type of moral compass. And then you leave the situation. To gather around in a group of people --
PINSKY: Hold on, I`m going to get the behavior bureau to talk about the behavior in a second, but who has been in a bar fight or this kind of - - Mike says he`s been involved, anybody else involved in this kind of thing? Carrie, you`re smiling?
KEAGAN: I never actually threw a punch, but man I wanted to.
HUTT: Sure, but you didn`t.
PINSKY: Jenny, did you?
HUTT: No, but I`ve wanted to.
EIGLARSH: Loni can throw. Loni`s tough.
PINSKY: Loni`s the one that mentioned the girl on girl fighting being so common. That`s why I`m wondering if it`s that complex that you`ve ever been involved in it at one time or another?
COOMBS: No, I haven`t been involved. But going to your point about this is more than a photo bomb, the defense attorney has already saying the victim started this. They`re saying this is more than a photo bomb.
PINSKY: Fabulous, blame the victim. Fantastic.
COOMBS: That`s exactly right. That`s where they go.
PINSKY: All right. Up next, a friend of the victim will join me exclusively to tell us what she knows about the attack. We`ll put a behavior bureau to the test here.
Later, a mom left two little boys inside an overheated car while she had sex in another car nearby and the babies died.
Back in a moment.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt. A woman is beaten to death outside a nightclub. Bystanders sit and take pictures and videos.
Jenny, a couple of tweets --
HUTT: That`s crazy.
PINSKY: Yes, it makes you crazy. Here`s a couple -- it`s making the Twitter-verse crazy, too.
"Girl on girl violence is a relatively new problem though may be common in young woman."
Another one where the guy was going to jump in. Let me see if I can get that for you real quick. This is Dylan Beam who said, "I would have jumped in on top of the girl and shielded her if nobody else was helping."
Now, that`s what we all hope we would have done, Jenny.
HUTT: Right. That`s what I don`t understand.
PINSKY: Well, the fact is, though, as the behavior bureau will tell you in just a second, we tend not to do that.
So, let`s bring them in. Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, Erica America, Z100 radio personality and psychotherapist.
And if you would like to join the conversation, you can tweet us right no on @DrDrewHLN, #behaviorbureau.
All right. Judy, psychologist, people say they have at least three different cell phone videos of this attack, standing videoing, not jumping on top, not helping like we all want to believe we would, is this the bystander effect?
And let me explain what that is -- where there are more people there are, the more likely people -- the less likely there are people to jump out of the group and help somebody in trouble. They stay in the group. Or, Judy, is there something about our social media sense of ourselves in videoing that`s actually distancing ourself from the actual circumstance?
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, I think it`s definitely part of the bystander effect, which you just mentioned. When you have that huge crowd of people around and nobody`s helping, we`re all looking to each other for social signals. So, if nobody else is jumping in and people are pulling out their video cameras and phones, to film it, then everybody else is going to follow suit. If only one person would have jumped in, well, if somebody did that, and we had role model, it would change the entire situation.
But I think you`re right about social media, too. I mean, I think that does help us to distance ourselves. And we`re thinking about, oh, what a great story this is going to make later instead of what is happening in the moment.
PINSKY: Erica America, you agree with that?
ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO PERSONALITY: Oh, my God, that`s exactly what I was going to say, Dr. Drew. I think this is mob mentality, group think, bystander and the ugliness of social media.
Now, the other day, we talked about the victim who confronted her abuser via YouTube video. We were like, wow, social media is amazing. But I always thought, it could also go very wrong. And before you know, people could be filming crimes on purpose.
I mean, people were videotaping it with the distinct desire to get likes. That`s what they wanted.
PINSKY: Secondary gain, this is so good I`m watching this violence because I`m going to get recognition on social media.
And, Sam, you worked a nightclub. I think you`re the only one in the group that has.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I have.
PINSKY: And do you see this increase in girl on girl violence?
SCHACHER: Well, OK, first of all, I`ve worked in nightclubs when I was in college and I worked in bars.
HUTT: What kind of work?
SCHACHER: Who said that?
SCHACHER: Oh, Jenny, come on, I was a waitress. Can we talk about the serious issue here?
PINSKY: Bottle service.
SCHACHER: So, yes, I worked in nightclubs in order to pay for my school, Jenny. Sorry, some of us have to pay our way through school.
But my point is, Dr. Drew, I`ve seen a number of fights at bars, and clubs. And, yes, when you see the girls fight, it`s really scary because people start to egg the girls on.
PINSKY: Oh, wow.
SCHACHER: They think it`s funny. They think it`s sexy, as opposed to when the guys are fighting.
But, Dr. Drew, there is no excuse. When I worked at nightclubs, when I worked at bars, we always intervened. There are so many things you can do. If you`re scared to jump in there, you can yell something like the cops are here. I`ve seen fights being stopped that way.
You can take your drink and throw it at them. You can take a bucket full of ice which is on every single bottle service table and throw it at them. That can break it up.
And look for security. If security isn`t in, I mind, go around the corner, get security and bring security over.
PINSKY: Bystanding the group think, Leeann, you`re my hatchet man here, you have at it.
LEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, it`s funny -- as a new mom, I would hope that I`m going to teach my son to do the right thing. And you would have that, in a situation like that, you are not going to just stand around. If I was there, I think I would have jumped in. I`ve done things like that in my life and people are like, you`re crazy. What if you`ve gotten killed? I`m like, yes, but what are you going to do? Just stand there and videotape it so you can put it on YouTube and have a viral video? Who cares? This girl lost her life.
TWEEDEN: They say it was a hard kick to the head. Now, I know my friend works down in that area. He said that they closed the bar for a while until the end of the month I think because they have a --
PINSKY: A shrine there.
TWEEDEN: A little shrine there for her and everybody is mourning and it was sad.
PINSKY: OK, guys, I want to bring in someone who was a friend of Kim`s. Her name is Jennyane Troung. We have her exclusively.
Jennyane, first, thank you for being here. Of course, everyone on this panel and everyone in our organization is so disturbed about the loss of your friend and we`re so sorry.
I have a -- first, though, thank you for joining us. But my first question is and maybe you can help me understand this --
JENNYANE TROUNG, FRIEND OF MURDERED WOMAN (via telephone): Sure.
PINSKY: Eight other of her friends witnessed this. Why aren`t people stepping up on her behalf?
TROUNG: First, Dr. Drew, thank you for having me, hello to everybody. I personally was not at the scene so I can`t quite comment on -- it`s only speculation. But -- and also, the investigation is still pending.
TROUNG: I prefer not to speak on what happened.
PINSKY: OK. Let me ask this way.
PINSKY: Are -- is her memory being properly honored? People are actually coming to her defense? Because I hear now the defense is trying to blame her and we`re outraged about that.
TROUNG: You know, as you all have seen, there is an outpouring of love and support for Kim and her family. Kim is a person who has a heart of gold. She would not --
PINSKY: Had she ever been in a fight before?
TROUNG: You know what? No, not to my knowledge. And I`m pretty sure many other people can vouch for that as well. Kim is not a person of violence.
PINSKY: All we heard is just lovely things about her.
TROUNG: Thank you.
PINSKY: Being quiet, active in charity.
PINSKY: Nothing like that. The absolute -- the last person you`d imagine being involved in something like this, is that correct?
TROUNG: Yes, I agree on that.
PINSKY: How would you and her family feel about people filming the attack and not jumping in.
TROUNG: Well, you know, that actually is of great concern to us. Because Kim is a person of love. She preaches love. And her actions, her actions mirror that very philosophy. And so, it`s just -- it`s appalling.
PINSKY: Yes, I agree.
TROUNG: It`s concerning and it shows that how desensitized our young generation is.
PINSKY: Yes. Jennyane, thank you for joining us. And please keep us posted on how this unfolds. You can put the tweet I have up here.
This is from Tiger Lily. "Everybody who uploaded videos and photos are just as guilty. There`s no excuse for her death." So, the Twitter- verse is reacting.
Jenny, I wanted to comment.
HUTT: Yes, I just don`t know why nobody called 911.
PINSKY: I think they did. Those kinds of details aren`t with us yet.
Can you guys show, there is one person that has been put on -- restrained because of this event? Can you put her picture up there? I guess this is one of the suspects in court. This is one of the individuals that is being alleged to have participated in this.
I don`t want to -- if in fact she is one of the guilty party, we want to be sure to -- she`s actually being charged with murder, my understanding is.
PINSKY: Let`s wrap this up. Leeann, last thoughts?
TWEEDEN: You know, this girl is a mother and if she gets convicted, she`s going away for probably a long time. And we`re going to leave her child, you know, motherless now, which is not a good cycle.
But my thought is, any time I`ve ever been in any sort of scene where there`s confrontation, walk away. You know, I`ve always been that person. I don`t want to fight, I don`t want to argue, if somebody gets mad at you for jumping in. You know what, I`m sorry, you`re with a lot of people, just leave the situation.
PINSKY: But it sounds like she was trying to. Again, we`ll get more details. There`s a lot of rumors flying around. The investigation is still under way.
Thank you. At least help us understand how -- understand ourselves a little bit. So maybe if we`re in a situation like this ourselves, we will think about this conversation and jump in and not succumb to the bystander effect.
Thank you, panel.
Next up, this woman left her kids inside and overheated car while she had sex in a nearby car and now she`s on trial for the murder of those children.
And later on, we`re going to introduce you to people who are shaking up social media and YouTube with a series we`re calling, "Hooked: Social Media Stars." I`ve got Hannah Hart, host of "My Drunk Kitchen", there she is. You don`t want to miss this. We`ve got social media, "Hooked".
Be right back.
PINSKY: I`m back with Jenny and Mark, Loni, Mike and Carrie.
We`re discussing a young mother who allegedly has admitted now she left her two toddlers in a car running with the heat on so she could go have sex in another car nearby. The boys expired. The boys are dead.
She`s now on trial for criminally negligent homicide. Take a look at this.
OPERATOR: They are unconscious, they are breathing, the breathing sounds like gurgling every breath.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The young brothers, 2-year-old William and 4-year- old Tyler Jensen. Their mom changed her story, at first telling police she only left the kids in the car for 10 minutes while she smoked a cigarette and talked to a friend. She admitted she was gone for an hour and a half.
OPERATOR: This could be carbon monoxide. We have a 4-year-old. Repeat, 4-year-old also in the car that`s having medical issues.
CALLER: My son, we were just hanging out. My son, he does not have a pulse.
OPERATOR: Is he breathing?
CALLER: He is not breathing.
PINSKY: For the latest on this case, let`s go out to John Phillips, host of the "John Phillips Show" on KABC Radio.
John, what do you got?
JOHN PHILLIPS, KABC RADIO (via telephone): Well, if think that Shaft (ph) is a bad mother, meet Heather Jensen. She`s now 24, or was 24, now 25 years old, is facing trial right now for child abuse resulting in death -- false reporting, criminally negligent homicide, who was married to a man who died, had a boyfriend, was then out with another man, having sex with him while she left her two kids, ages 2 and 4 in the car, turned the heat all the way up. It was 140 degrees Fahrenheit which is, of course, off the charts.
The two kids, unfortunately, died in the car and the parents of her deceased husband had been pressing prosecutors to bring charges against her, which is now happening in the state of Colorado. Just horrific story of parental negligence to the nth degree, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you, John.
Loni, what do you think of this woman?
COOMBS: Dr. Drew, this case, there is absolutely no excuse for this woman. Absolutely none. I don`t care how much my favorite defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh comes up with a creative defense, there`s no defense for this.
Look, she took these two little boys out with her that night for cover because she was leaving her live-in boyfriend to meet another boyfriend. She told the live-in boyfriend, I`m just going to play in the snow with my little boys. When she gets to this location, she leaves her boys in her car so she can go ahead and have sex with her other boyfriend in the other car.
Thirty minutes into this rendezvous, the 4-year-old actually tries to get out of the car, opens the door. She comes over, gives him her cell phone, leave me alone and she locks those two little boys in with the baby locks so they cannot get out.
You have no idea. We don`t know what those little boys experienced and if that 4-year-old tried to get out of that car and save his little brother while she was in the car next door having sex.
That`s the most selfish, inhumane type of mothering --
PINSKY: OK, Mr. Defense Attorney, Mike Eiglarsh, what are you going to say?
EIGLARSH: Well, first of all, my barroom brawling friend Loni makes some very compelling points. This is a very difficult one. The actions are abhorrent, but the success in the defense lies in mitigating, not necessarily negating her guilt.
And what I want to point out, and understand I`m not negating, I`m not telling anyone --
PINSKY: Are you going to be trying to save her life? Is this going to be a death penalty case?
EIGLARSH: Absolutely not. Not even close.
The question is should she be launched for decades in prison. What I would say, she wasn`t in her right mind. Not to negate her guilt. Slow down, everybody, talking about mitigating. She just lost her husband tragically two months earlier. She`s 76 on the I.Q. scale which makes her borderline developmentally disabled.
She also loved her children, didn`t intentionally do this. She wasn`t in her right frame of mind.
So, I would try to get the best outcome that I can for her, but not like Loni, lock her up and throw away the key.
PINSKY: Mike, what are you doing there? What`s happening? What`s with those hands?
CATHERWOOD: OK. She was not in the right state of mind because her husband had recently passed away.
Let me point out again that just days after her husband had passed away, she had moved in her boyfriend that she was previously already cheating on her husband with. The guy dies in a car accident, the husband, she moves in this guy to not only continue the --
PINSKY: Illicit affair.
CATHERWOOD: The illicit affair, if you will, yes, and then she forces this new boyfriend to take care of her kids, while, while, she says she`s going to go play in the snow. No, she`s going to play with more penis, because that is what she needs.
She takes her kids with her. She`s begging her children in this SUV. She sees there her kids are getting out of the car while she takes a slight break from whatever crappy whore stuff she`s doing. She goes over and plops a cell phone in front of their face so they can play Angry Birds.
I don`t care that she has a very low I.Q. I don`t think the Pedro Guerrero --
EIGLARSH: So, what do you do to her, Mike?
PINSKY: Hang on. Hang on. Let me get Carrie`s point of view.
Is she a killer or was this a woman in distress not in her right mind with developmental disabilities? Carrie, what do you say?
KEAGAN: I mean, the whole thing is tragic and disgusting. But at the end of the day, this is a woman who just lost her two kids. Is there any punishment that`s worse than that?
If you decide to put her away in prison, to what end? I mean, it will only maybe keep someone else from doing the same stupid thing. Does this help the situation?
PINSKY: Jenny, you can respond to that. Go ahead.
HUTT: Well, so, I like the idea of deterring someone else from doing something to stupid and selfish. I`m a mother. There is nothing I would put before my children. No one, no -- who cares who she has sex with? If you`re going to have sex with someone in a car, then give your kids to someone else to be watched so you have that sex in the car.
PINSKY: Mike, was it just bad judgment?
EIGLARSH: Listen, in defending her, which I don`t necessarily want to do, but in defending her, everybody is right. You acknowledge how abhorrent the act is.
EIGLARSH: But at the end of the day, OK, prosecutor, so, what do you want? Do you want to launch her for ten, 20, 30 years the same way as if she had intentionally sought to kill her children, which she did not?
COOMBS: She`s not charged with that.
EIGLARSH: What is the value? What you --
COOMBS: She`s not charged with that.
EIGLARSH: Right. So, what do you put on it? How long should she go away?
COOMBS: But don`t you think she should be put in jail for some period of time, Mark?
COOMBS: Don`t you think she should get more than just probation and some parenting classes?
EIGLARSH: Mark, the person or mark the defense lawyer?
COOMBS: Mark the defense --
EIGLARSH: Yes, her act is abhorrent. Mark, the defense --
PINSKY: But Carrie, I like Carrie`s point which is having lost her kids at her own hands is such an unbelievable brutal punishment, she almost would welcome some sort of -- you know, put me in jail, do whatever you want with me. Carrie, you agree with that?
CARRIE KEAGAN, @ CARRIEKEAGAN: Yes. I mean, what is putting her in jail really going to do? She`s already in hell right now.
PINSKY: Mike --
PINSKY: Mike, last word.
MIKE CATHERWOOD, CO-HOST, "LOVELINE": She might be put in some type of mental institution or given probation and therapy. What we need to do is put in her jail even if it`s a small amount of time so that she can be in a real jail with other female criminals, some hard hitting cholas that can really have their way with her so that even if the law can`t really do what needs to be done, these girls can take care of her.
KEAGAN: If what you`re saying is true and she`s actually below average in education, you know, whatever, she`s mentally not, you know, smart, is she really going to learn anything?
PINSKY: It`s a good question.
CATHERWOOD: Look at me! Look at me! I`m barely, barely above her, and I`m on TV!
PINSKY: Put the camera on me for a second. Listen, I want to chant this, I chant it all the time, which is the time for treatment and therapy is before the abhorrent act. After the abhorrent act, it`s on the legal system and some sort of justice has to be served. We`ll see what goes down to this case.
Next, we`re going to in the "Behavior Bureau" for more on the story. And later, as I told you, we are introducing you to some of the most popular and influential people on Twitter, Instagram and YouTube kicking off our series, "Hooked: Social Media Star," Shanna Malcolm, actress, host of "Hey Yo Shanna" is here. Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No matter how hot it got in that vehicle, Tyler and Lance (ph) couldn`t open the doors. They couldn`t get out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her voice were getting cold. She turned the heat on to protect them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boy`s father, Eric Jensen, was killed in a car wreck.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a woman who has an IQ of 76. She`s borderline developmentally disabled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Court documents obtained say the boys` mom, Heather, admitted to a previous addiction to pain medication.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, now, we have addiction in here. I`m back with jenny Hutt, my co-host. We`re talking about the deaths of two little boys. Mom is on trial after leaving them locked in a car with the heater on, the car running, maybe it was carbon monoxide, maybe it was hypothermia. She did it so she could have sex in a different car nearby.
Our Twitterversis is responding. Here is from Timmy -- Kimmy Lampron. "Baby killer. I don`t care who she lost. Her children should be more precious to her. She has no excuse. Throw away the key." And that`s the general sort of feeling out there in the Twitterverse.
HUTT: It`s tough to have compassion, Dr. Drew, when it just seems --
PINSKY: It is. It is. It`s so disgusting and it`s so needs some sort of justice. Let`s bring back the Behavior Bureau, Sam, Judy, Leeann, and Erica. And if you`d like to join the conversation, you can tweet us right now @DrDrewHLN #Behavior Bureau. And to my Behavior Bureau, I want you to know that Michael Catherwood who was in the previous panel was sending love messages to all of you, interrupting the flow of my thought and conversation.
HUTT: Oh, goodness.
PINSKY: So, Michael, just wait till you`re back on the air, please, my friend. All right. Let`s get back to this serious topic because it is -- I have to bring levity in just to be able to tolerate talking about this. Judy, the borderline IQ, should that make a difference here?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think it does make a difference, Dr. Drew. And you know what`s unfortunate about this category is that they fall just right above where you actually get services and qualify as mental retardation. But they have a lot of the same problems, planning issues, reasoning issues, problems having judgment. Now, I believe that this woman was trying to protect her children in the way that she was turning up the heat to shield them from the cold, but you can`t tell somebody like this, you know, anything that`s past the present moment.
They have to get the step-by-step instructions. They`re only supposed to be allowed to do daily tasks of living and a very simple job. Caring for children is not a simple daily task of living.
PINSKY: And Erica, but we have another layer, perhaps, in this case where she`s had an opiate addiction on top of developmental disabilities and that is like -- that`s a one-two punch. That`s a whammy.
ERICA AMERICA, RADIO PERSONALITY: No, absolutely. So, court affidavits show that she tested positive for THC, which is marijuana three different times leading up to the event as well as admitted to pain medication addiction not within the year. And she was also prescribed to an anti-depressant. So, there was a lot of stuff going on here that especially -- I don`t know.
I consider it negligence just, you know, smoking pot, and apparently, she was smoking pot in the car while she was having sex. So, she was not of her right mind, but it`s still, you know, someone died because of it. And that`s why it`s the negligent homicide.
PINSKY: I think she was continuing to use even when she was on probation or whatever they call it when they`re holding somebody for the investigation. Leeann, have at it.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Dr. Drew, she was obviously smart enough to think, oh, it`s cold out, I should probably turn the heat on for my children. So, she`s smart enough to know that maybe I`m going to try to protect my children while I`m in the car --
PINSKY: Well, Leeann let me interrupt you and say that not only that, but she was smart enough to use the kids as a foil, a shield, like I need to bring the kids to my boyfriend -- suspect going have sex with this other guy.
TWEEDEN: Exactly. Now, I used to listen to Dr. Laura a lot, and she would have women call in that, you know, I`m sorry that this woman lost her husband, but when Dr. Laura would say, you know, women would go, hey, when can I start dating again? And Dr. Laura is like, what are you talking about? You got to be 18. Those children need to be raised and out of the house. They need to be your first priority.
And women just -- they don`t like hearing that. And she goes, you cannot bring different men -- and obviously, this woman has had a couple different men at least that we know of, too, since her husband has passed. And that you`re bringing them into these children`s lives which is not healthy for their upbringing, not healthy for their emotional state, and she`s already doing that and then taking them and then she negligently kills them.
PINSKY: -- forget that part.
PINSKY: Samantha, she also apparently was an aggressor in a domestic violence dispute. Did you hear about that?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: No, you`re right. March 13th, 2012, she was arrested for domestic violence when her husband at the time who you heard earlier had passed away in that car accident, he told police that a fight of theirs escalated because he did not want her hanging out with a stupid group of friends where she would receive medication from.
And then he continued to tell police that she was using Percocet and Vicodin at the time of their fight and was taking the Percocet and the Vicodin while punching him and that`s why she was arrested back in 2012.
HUTT: So sad.
PINSKY: Put it up while Jenny`s talking, please. Put this tweet up ahead. Go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, I just have a question. Do you think this is another situation where the system failed these children? That nobody came in and took them from this clearly unsafe environment?
PINSKY: You`re making this very much the point I was making at the end of the last segment.
TWEEDEN: It seemed like the dad was trying to do something.
TWEEDEN: The dad was dead, I thought. Well now, but before that he was like, you know, didn`t want her to hang out with people that were giving her drugs. I mean, the one person who was probably the only thing that could --
PINSKY: Stabilize her.
TWEEDEN: Yes. Stabilize these children is gone.
PINSKY: Well, Sam, finish up.
SCHACHER: Yes. I think that this woman`s all in it for herself, obviously. I think she`s still continuing to be in it. She`s defending herself. She didn`t take the plea deal. She`s saying that it`s an accident. I`m sorry, own up to it, suffer the consequences, go in jail, and God forbid, you ever have another child again.
PINSKY: And we`ll leave it there. Next up the stars of social media are here with us. Hannah Hart, host of "My Drunk Kitchen," and Shanna Malcolm, actress and host of "Hey Yo Shanna" -- both on YouTube, of course, and they will join my panel for more discussion right after this break.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We`re back with Jenny and Sam. They stay with me. And tonight, we begin our series, "Hooked: Social Media Stars." We`re going to introduce you to some of the most popular, influential people on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube and show you why thousands of folks cannot wait to see what they post next.
So, joining us actress and host of "Hey Yo Shanna" on YouTube, Shanna Malcolm, and comedian, Hannah Hart, the host of "My Drunk Kitchen." And Sam, thank you for introducing us and educating us about our social media stars.
SCHACHER: I love these two. They`re intelligent, they`re funny, they`re perfect for the panel.
PINSKY: It`s great to have you guys. All right. Tonight, we`re talking about -- this is what I put before you guys. A teacher`s aide was placed on paid leave for posting some intense photos of herself on Instagram and Facebook. Caitlin Pearson (ph) is her name. She`s a teacher`s aide who moonlights as a model. She was suspended when someone sent a package of her, all these provocative, you know, photographs to the school district.
She said she balances modeling with her full-time job for extra funding. I`m going to ask my YouTube stars. Is this appropriate or not or do people just don`t understand the implications of putting things up on social media -- Shanna?
SHANNA MALCOLM, HOST, "HEY YO SHANNA": I definitely think there`s something to be said for appropriateness or inappropriateness, but at the end of the day, she`s an adult posting pictures of herself and she`s not marketing herself as a teacher in this capacity. She`s saying, here, I`m a model, and she`s showing herself as a model.
Separately, when she`s a teacher, as long as she`s not dressed like that at work, I`m not sure what the relevance of this separate identity of herself is or what bearing that has on anything else she does.
PINSKY: Hannah, what do you think?
HANNAH HART, HOST, "MY DRUNK KITCHEN": Well, I think that if, you know, she was -- she`s a teacher`s aide, right?
HART: This is a part-time job and she`s maybe an aspiring teacher, but it seems to me that she`s more of an aspiring model. So, frankly, probably some angry moms and dads got together, found all these pictures and decided that this woman couldn`t possibly teach their children any more. But I don`t really think that the girl is at fault at all. I mean, she wants to be a model. That`s her life.
PINSKY: Sam, what do you say?
SCHACHER: I think that you have to have your social media image match your professional image, and I`m not saying what this woman is doing is wrong, but she has to be aware that at the end of the day, your employer has the discretion to hire and fire you. They`re going to Google image you. They should Google image you or somebody will and send in those photos.
And I think that young people watching need to be aware that whatever they post on the internet can be used to either help them or hurt them, so make sure that your brand on social media is the same as your professional brand.
PINSKY: Now, my understanding is she was a special education teacher. Jenny, I wanted you to dig into your feelings about this woman. If your daughter was in a classroom with this teacher`s aide, what would bug you? What is it about those pictures that would bug you?
HUTT: Well, look, some of them are provocative in nature. So like, I was thinking she`s a model or is she a model wanna be? It`s unclear. But --
PINSKY: No, but Jenny, what would --
PINSKY: Does this say something about her moral fiber?
PINSKY: Are you afraid of how the dads are going to react to the teacher? What is it that bothers them?
HUTT: Listen, Dr. Drew, what do I think bothers them? It doesn`t bother me. What I was going to say is that if the school doesn`t have a policy about out of school behavior, then she should not be in trouble. If the school has a policy that as a teacher`s aide or teacher, you can`t put up naked or partially naked pictures.
PINSKY: All right.
HUTT: That`s another story. But I think other mothers, I think Sam hit on -- whoever said maybe there`s some angry mothers --
PINSKY: Of course. Go ahead, Hannah, what do you say?
HUTT: But, I wouldn`t be.
HART: Well, I just would like to say that, you know, she is probably fully aware of what she`s putting online. But I think, Sam, you make an excellent point about, hey, kids, if you`re watching make sure that you know that whatever you put on the internet is at everyone`s public discretion the second you post it live. Totally 100 percent true.
PINSKY: And is it, Shanna, the fact that people are getting so accustomed to their lives being out there on social media, they kind of -- they blink. They sort -- they don`t think about the consequences so much?
MALCOLM: I think there`s a very strong possibility that people don`t think about the long-term consequences. So, I do think Sam has a very strong point. However, I want to point out that I don`t know if so much of a to-do would be made about this teacher`s aide if she were a he. If she were a he as an aspiring model, it would not be an issue.
PINSKY: We have dealt with some of that stuff. We`ve had teachers -- when he is doing -- well, it`s a different topic. But if people do react to that a bit, too, in certain settings --
MALCOLM: Yes. But it`s a sexualization of her as though somehow her being a woman with an attractive body, she wants to put herself out there as a model. Again, as long as she`s not advocating this as her lifestyle to the children and saying this is what you should grow up to become or who you should try to be. And also, I think there`s an important distinction between recognizing that someone`s public image isn`t necessarily who they are as a private person.
MALCOLM: In my own capacity making YouTube videos, I`m a lot more gregarious and crazy and outgoing and silly than I would be right now, that I am right at this moment. It doesn`t negate the truth of what it is that I -- you know, when I put out there as a performer, but it also doesn`t eliminate who I am as a person.
PINSKY: I got to go. Justin Bieber fled the country, perhaps. We`re going to tell you where he`s been spotted. We`ll come back with our social media stars, Hannah and Shanna. Be sure to look for us on Instagram @DrDrewHLN. We`ll be right back after this.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justin Bieber jetting off to Panama over the weekend following a highly publicized arrest in Miami beach just a few days prior.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are Bieber`s buddies about to stage an intervention?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He does need help, whether it`s rehab, whether - - I mean, if it`s intervention --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a vulnerable kid trying to figure it out. And he makes mistakes. He acknowledges those mistakes and he`s just trying to figure it out like any other 19-year-old except he`s an extraordinary musician.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m hoping Justin views this as a wake-up call and gets his act together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny, Sam, and our social media stars, Hannah Hart and Shanna Malcolm. Justin turned up in Panama over the weekend with a crew that included his dad, his manager, Scooter Braun, and Usher. Intervention or a vacation? Shanna, what do you think?
MALCOLM: Maybe a little bit of both.
PINSKY: I heard that his manager was not going to keep representing him if he didn`t do something or get involved in treatment, but Panama?
HART: Wow. All I want to know is -- here`s my real question. In the photos of him in prison are his mug shot, who did his hair?
HART: His hair looks phenomenal.
SCHACHER: It`s good hair.
HART: It`s good hair.
SCHACHER: Yes, it is.
PINSKY: Shanna, your thoughts?
MALCOLM: I was feeling the hype, you know, he`s got that little curl coming down. So, I feel like there definitely was a stylist involved. So, I`m with you on that, Hannah. You know, it`s good to know that you can get those kind of services in prison.
HART: I know. I know. But you know, what it really comes down to is that, I just don`t think Justin Bieber will ever learn consequence until it`s something which contained a lot of gravity, and that`s very unfortunate.
PINSKY: Well, speaking of that, Sam, we`ve got about less than a minute. Give me the latest on the egg throwing incident. You can about 30 seconds.
SCHACHER: Yes. Well, it`s interesting because TMZ has reported that investigators have not found any incriminating evidence against Justin Bieber as far as the egg attack. However, CNN is reporting that Detective David Thompson, he says that that TMZ report is erroneous, that in fact, just today, they`re still looking at the video content. They`re still looking at iPhone content and they even plan to go to the district attorney and talk about a possible felony vandalism charge.
PINSKY: Shanna, very quick, last comment.
MALCOLM: What would be the evidence that you`ll find in Justin`s house? An empty egg carton?
MALCOLM: What exactly is evidence?
PINSKY: They`re looking at cell phone video and surveillance camera videos. There`s a lot of cameras on that house --
MALCOLM: Oh, I got you.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. It`s great making your points (ph). We`ll have you back up on the show. We`ll keep watching you on YouTube. And the "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: "Last Call" goes to a tweet from Jennifer Long. She says, "Dual diagnosis? How can she care for children?" She`s referring to the woman that left her kids in the car to cook while she had sex nearby. "Let alone herself. Someone should have intervened," which is a constant refrain on this show, get help before disaster strikes, Jenny.
PINSKY: Thank you so much for a great show, Jenny. We appreciate it. That`s it for us tonight. "What Would You Do?" begins right now.