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Amanda Knox Found Guilty in Retrial
Aired January 30, 2014 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Breaking news tonight, and it is a stunner. Beautiful young American, Amanda Knox, has just been found guilty of murder, again, by another Italian jury. Amanda has long claimed she was framed in the murder of her female roommate. Does this mean the woman known as Foxy Knoxy, this young woman, will be yanked from her family in Seattle and shipped back to spend decades in an Italian prison?
AMANDA KNOX, FOUND GUILTY OF MURDER IN RETRIAL: It`s hard to prove that you`re innocent, that you didn`t do something.
(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I am not what they say I am."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The gruesome murder of Knox`s roommate, 21-year- old British student, Meredith Kercher.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I respect life and people."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Italian prosecutors accused 26-year-old exchange student, Amanda Knox, of trying to force her roommate, Meredith Kercher, to take part in a drug-fueled satanic ritualistic sex game. Prosecutors actually claim that Amanda held a knife to Meredith`s throat as her then- Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, and another man helped Meredith down and sexually abused her and that Amanda ultimately killed her by stabbing her repeatedly with a knife.
Amanda calls that claim a total fantasy and a big fat lie. She recently spoke to "The Guardian" about what she considers a total travesty of justice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KNOX: It would feel like a train wreck. They would order my arrest, and the Italian government would approach the American government and say, "Extradite her!" And I don`t know what would happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now that she`s convicted, that`s a real worry. Could she be extradited?
Meredith, the victim, was found half-naked, strangled and stabbed to death. In the first trial, Amanda and Raffaele were found guilty of murder. Then, Amanda and Raffaele appealed. That conviction was ultimately overturned for lack of evidence, and they were acquitted. In America, that would be the end of it. But in Italy, apparently double jeopardy is not a phrase that they`ve heard of. They put her on trial again, and just a little while ago voted to convict her again.
Tonight, will Amanda be forced to leave Seattle and fly back to Italy, where she already did four years hard time in prison? During this mess, should she be extradited? I say, hell no, she should not go.
Straight out to the Lion`s Den where we will debate my theory that this is one of the biggest travesties of justice that I can remember, starting with criminal defense attorney, Adam Swickle.
They convicted her after they acquitted her.
ADAM SWICKLE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ve got to tell you, I thank God every day that I live in a country that, whenever there`s a fact finding that somebody didn`t do something, that that`s the end of it.
She was acquitted. There wasn`t enough evidence. And now to go back and keep pounding and pounding and pounding away, just because they want to find somebody guilty of it, that is the true travesty of justice in this particular case.
And I`ll tell you, I would not put that woman on a plane to go anywhere. She was acquitted. That`s the end of it. We have to move on.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sheryl Lee Ralph, actress of Nickelodeon`s "Instant Mom," I am so thrilled to have you with us tonight. This has my blood boiling. This girl, young woman, now 26, the last six years of her life have been hellish since her roommate was murdered. What say you?
SHERYL LEE RALPH, ACTRESS: You know what? This is an awful, awful trial. Here in America, we say you cannot be tried twice for the same crime. So she is now back home, after they acquitted her, and then they tried her again. Well, I doubt very seriously if anybody is going to send her back there.
But with all of this going on around Amanda, Amanda, Amanda and Raffaele, the fact remains that Kercher, the young woman, was stabbed several times and cut from ear to ear. What about justice for her, because she`s the one that`s dead?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes, but convicting the wrong people...
SWICKLE: And convicting somebody who didn`t do it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. I mean -- go ahead.
SWICKLE: Convicting the wrong person isn`t going to give the person justice. It`s actually going to cause even more tragedy.
RALPH: You are -- now, what`s interesting.
SWICKLE: Let`s find out who really committed the crime, and let`s bring them to justice.
RALPH: That`s interesting. That`s interesting. Because everybody acts like somebody has not been charged with something. And I am almost positive that Rudy Guede, the young African student, is in jail right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course he is.
RALPH: He`s the only one of that group that is actually charged with something and is in jail.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course he is. Rudy Guede, OK -- and that`s the crazy thing about this. Rudy Guede has already been convicted of murdering Meredith Kercher and sexually abusing her, and he`s been in jail for years now. So why do they need somebody else? OK. This guy is a drifter. He was convicted less than a year after Meredith`s death, and he, however, insists, "No, I`m innocent." And he claims, "I saw Amanda leaving the crime scene."
Now, Amanda and her boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, claim they were at the boyfriend`s apartment. But they smoked pot, so they claimed they couldn`t remember all the details.
Now here`s some of the evidence. Prosecutors say the victim`s bra had Raffaele`s DNA on it and that the murder weapon, a knife, had Amanda and the victim`s DNA.
But Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor and author of "Justice for Some," the bra wasn`t collected for six weeks. OK. The bra sat there for six weeks. And in his book, Raffaele wrote that he actually watched cops walk into this kitchen, pick up a kitchen knife out of the kitchen and say, "Hey, this will do for the murder weapon." Were they framed?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: For heaven`s sake, I know she doesn`t look like a brutal, horrible killer. She`s really, really guilty. And the evidence is overwhelming. And you can talk about the bra all day long. Let`s talk about what really matters.
Five -- count them, five -- different mixed DNA blood samples. Her blood mixed with Meredith Kercher`s blood in five different spots around the apartment: doorjambs, walls, other rooms in the apartment. How do you explain that? You don`t. She`d only lived there for two weeks. Her blood is everywhere. Her blood is on the handle of the murder weapon. The victim`s blood...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What possible motive would she have? Listen, the prosecutor in this case...
MURPHY: Who cares?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I do care. I do care.
MURPHY: Oh please.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because the prosecutor in this case, because she`s pretty, said this was a satanic sex ritual. They were participating in an orgy, and the victim didn`t want to go along, so Amanda stabbed her.
MURPHY: That`s not what they said.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it is. It was right around Halloween. Yes.
MURPHY: They said it was either jealousy or money or a mixture of some drug-fueled weird thing that happened. She was very jealous of Meredith. She was a disturbed girl. She had a horrible childhood; she grew up in hell. She is not a sweet co-ed like everyone thinks; she`s a disturbed killer. She had sex with, like, seven guys in two weeks.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You can`t just say those things on television.
MURPHY: She admitted it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Lockwood, investigator, help me out here, author of "Undercover Angel." The general consensus is that these two young people. I`ve talked to Raffaele Sollecito. Seems like a great young man. They`ve been framed; they`ve been railroaded.
And because she was, you know -- she was 20. She did stupid things. They made out while they were waiting to be questioned. She did a cartwheel and a split, because she was feeling stiff while she was waiting to be questioned. And all of that and the fact that she`s pretty, boy, they turn around and they just pinned -- they had their sights on her. I mean...
LISA LOCKWOOD, AUTHOR, "UNDERCOVER ANGEL": Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m convinced she didn`t do this.
LOCKWOOD: I`m with you on one part of that, Jane. Does promiscuity make somebody guilty? No. Does the use of drugs make somebody guilty? No. Was there physical evidence there on the scene that corroborated with her touching a murder weapon and having her blood intermixed with some of the contents that were found. Those were the pieces of the puzzle, that the biggest blunder had occurred, because the crime scene was so contaminated. And I believe without a doubt that that`s why she won in the appeal.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to the phone lines. I hope somebody out there -- go ahead.
SWICKLE: And that`s -- if I can, that`s very, very common. When investigators go through scenes, it is very common for there to be contamination and for blood to be mixed. The bottom line is, what was the end result, and are we going to go through this yet another time? And I say no.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, this was such sloppy police work by this prosecutor who had ended up being convicted of prosecutorial misconduct and doing time in jail. The guy has a tendency to say everything is satanic. And in a previous case he said that was also a satanic influence crime. And he was actually convicted of prosecutorial misconduct. Right there, they should throw the whole case out.
Let`s go to Nancy in Pennsylvania. What do you have to say, Nancy?
CALLER: Jane, I`m with you in this case. Amanda Knox was found not guilty. I think it`s a case of the prosecutor having sour grapes and just doesn`t want to let it go.
And I used to have a lot of respect also for Wendy Murphy, but she is way off base on this. That`s just my opinion.
And they need to let her alone.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Wendy, listen, people are really reacting viscerally to your...
MURPHY: Can I say something?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It doesn`t even track with your track record of, you know, justice. I don`t understand how you can jump to the conclusion...
MURPHY: Let me tell you. Can I respond to that woman? Let me just say something, Jane. The one thing that bothers me the most about this country`s support for Amanda Knox is nobody seems to care that she falsely accused a black man of this crime, and she let him rot in jail for two weeks. Anyone who does that in this country is roundly dismissed and reviled as racist. Guess what?
SWICKLE: I don`t think it`s not as much -- no...
MURPHY: You`re still a racist thing if you do it in Italy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second.
SWICKLE: ... as important for Amanda Knox.
MURPHY: Accusing a black man of murder who didn`t commit murder.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excuse me. Simone Bienne...
SWICKLE: It is not as much of support for Amanda Knox than it is for our system.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Enough. Hold on a second. Enough. Hold on, Adam. I want to go to Simone for a second.
Amanda Knox was grilled for 41 hours. OK? She said she was hit in the back of the head. We`re going to show that clip in a second. But she said at that point she was disoriented and maybe, you know, she did something stupid by implicating somebody that she said she was grilled to the point where she would have just said anything. She also confessed.
SWICKLE: And that happens a lot. That happens a lot in our system. The system is designed to grill people...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would say that...
SWICKLE: ... left and right in order to get them to say things. It happens all the time. That`s why...
MURPHY: There`s no evidence of that. None. There is no evidence of that. You`re making stuff up.
SWICKLE: I`m not making anything up.
MURPHY: Held for two weeks?
SWICKLE: I`m not making anything up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let Simone have a word in edgewise. And on the other side, we`re going to talk about a close friend and confidante of Amanda Knox, who I`m sure has a lot to say. But Simone, very quickly.
SIMONE BIENNE, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: I was just going to say when you are absolutely fearful for your life, you will say anything and you will be disoriented. We don`t know, clearly, what the truth is.
But what this girl is going through right now, Jane, none of us can imagine. It`s totally out of control. It`s a foreign jury system. It`s terrible for her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a crazy jury system.
On the other side, Amanda Knox`s good friend speaks in her defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will you ever be able to forgive those who killed Meredith?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For me personally, no. You know, I think you`d have to be a very, very strong-willed, arguably religious person to sort of find that forgiveness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KNOX: Because I was not sure whether it was my imagination or whether it was reality. Therefore I wanted to say I was confused and I could not know. At the same time, I knew I had to sign the statement.
Amanda says she was hit on the back of the head by detectives while she was being grilled. There. Boom! Explaining why she said things she now regrets. A close confidante of Amanda Knox, Ryan has been through his own hellish battle, he spent ten years for a murder-robbery he did not commit. He was finally set free three months ago.
Ryan, thank you so much for joining us tonight. You have become a confidante of Amanda. You`ve been listening to everything we`ve been saying here. I want you to weigh in and speak for your friend.
RYAN FERGUSON, FRIEND OF AMANDA: I think obviously by the facts Amanda is innocent 100 percent. I think Wendy`s arguments were very weak. Clearly, she doesn`t understand contaminated DNA, she doesn`t understand the fact that that crime scene where it actually happened, there`s no DNA of Amanda`s or Raffaele`s in that room. That`s impossible.
I think the fact that she`s talking about her family and saying that she was raised terribly or whatever it was that she said that was negative, that`s flatly absurd. I met her family. They`re amazing. They`re great people, and she`s so fortunate to have them in her life.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now you`ve been communicating because you have this commonality of being trapped in these legal vortices, these Kafka-esque situations. What have you learned about Amanda and what is she going through, in your opinion, right now?
FERGUSON: What she`s going through right now, it`s very difficult for her family and for herself. I feel like I`ve gone through that, as well, and many of the people who have been in our situations have gone through it. And we just know that you`ve got to put the pain behind you and you`ve got to keep fighting. She`s very strong. She`s going to keep moving forward. She`s going to prove her innocence. It takes years. And for me it took 10, which is really quick. She`s been dealing with it for seven. I`ve seen people deal with it for 30. So this is just a step in the road. It`s very unfortunate. It`s going to get difficult to get over. But she is a fighter and is going to get through this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she told an Italian newspaper reportedly, "If I am convicted" -- and the conviction just came down just a couple of minutes ago -- "that I would become a fugitive before I would return to Italy." Has she ever expressed anything like that to you?
FERGUSON: No. She -- we didn`t talk about that necessarily. But if she did, you know, I don`t blame her. She doesn`t belong in prison; she`s innocent. And if she has to fight for her freedom, she has to fight for her freedom. And I stand there with her. So they`re going to have to come through me to get her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Ryan -- thank you so much. And I applaud you for speaking out and for also surviving that terrible ordeal.
Amanda has just released a statement a second ago, saying she`s frightened and saddened by this unjust verdict. She says she expected more from the Italian justice system, and the whole thing has gotten out of hand.
Blair, Texas, what do you have to say? Blair, Texas.
CALLER: Jean, I have so much to say, and I`m so outraged with this verdict. I`ve got two questions you. My first question is what on earth does the Italian judge, the judicial system have that can convict Amanda Knox for the second time? And is there any statute of limitations? It`s been almost seven years.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, I think there`s never a statute of limitations on murder, to my knowledge, in this country. And I don`t -- the Italian criminal justice system, Adam Swickle, is so convoluted. I mean, it is very strange and peculiar.
Like, now, the judge is going to write and release some kind of paper on this decision, this verdict. And then after that, she can appeal again, and then -- it seems like it really is...
MURPHY: That`s not true.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, clarify, Wendy.
SWICKLE: It certainly is not like -- excuse me. It certainly is not like our system. Our system has certain checks and balances.
SWICKLE: But when the verdict comes down and a decision is made, that is final, especially when it`s done by a fact-finder.
It seems there that they make certain decisions and then go back on it and they don`t like it so they decide to change the decision and somebody else comes in and gives their opinion, so we`re going to flip-flop that decision. There`s no finality over there. That`s a big problem.
MURPHY: What are you talking about? You sound ridiculous. You`re so rude to the Italian legal system.
SWICKLE: So our Constitution is ridiculous? Our Constitution is ridiculous?
MURPHY: I`m talking about the truth. The truth is they have an inquisitorial system. We have an adversarial system. They actually care more about the truth than we do. That`s true.
SWICKLE: Please! Please!
MURPHY: And you know what?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... Wendy Murphy. Now, I want to go to Sheryl Lee Ralph.
SWICKLE: What you`re saying is unconstitutional; it`s ridiculous.
MURPHY: Why can`t we talk about the truth?
RALPH: Because the two of them are arguing. Listen...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sheryl Lee, [lease, weigh in. I want to get others to weigh in here.
RALPH: It`s very simple. They have double jeopardy. We don`t.
Amanda is in these United States right now. She was found guilty again. What are the chances of her being asked to get on a plane to go back there to serve that time? I don`t think it`s going to happen. We`ve had at least four to five major cases before where they`ve never been asked to go back. I don`t think they will sacrifice beautiful her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Lockwood, I don`t think so either. What do you say, quickly?
LOCKWOOD: I think she`s going to be living a very free life in the United States, and that`s going to be the end of this story.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Simone Bienne, what do you think? Extradited or not?
BIENNE: I think no extradited. I don`t think it`s really that important to America.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow! Wow, wow, wow. Well, what about when the next fugitive financier goes over there, and we want that person back to prosecute them? Boy, the ripple effects of this case. We`re staying on top of it.
All right. A man who happens to be a white man opens fire on an unarmed teenager, who happens to be African-American. Is this another George Zimmerman case? Michael Dunn claims to fear for his life. Others are calling him a cold-blooded killer. We`re going to debate it on the other side and listen to his extraordinary interview with cops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He saw a gun, put his gun back in his glove box. Dunn told her he shot at the car with the loud music. She asked him why.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said, "I feared for my life."
I said, "Why?"
And he said, "They threatened to kill me."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And then it stopped for a second. You hear pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, op.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Dunn told investigators he felt threatened at a gas station
MICHAEL DUNN, FACING CHARGES FOR SHOOTING: I was in fear for my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Davis was hit at least twice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That should never happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just so hard because I miss him so much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thought he saw a gun, so he pulled his own weapon and started shooting.
DUNN: You know, there`s a lot of (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and (EXPLETIVE DELETED). And then the music comes back on. They thought it was a shotgun and he goes, "You`re dead." And he opens his door.
I really didn`t know that I was being charged with murder and attempted murder. That sucks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A brazen killer or innocent man who fears for his life? The explosive case builds as the next George Zimmerman trial. This guy, Michael Dunn, just days away from trial for murder.
Tonight, some claim he`s trying to manipulate the outcome from inside his jail cell. Letters Dunn wrote his girlfriend from jail sound like he might be coaching her what to say on the witness stand. Other letters he wrote sound downright racist.
Now Michael Dunn gunned down 17-year-old African-American teenager Jordan Davis at a Florida gas station. Police say Dunn fired at least eight shots into an SUV with Jordan and three friends inside. Dunn had objected to the loud music coming from the teen`s SUV.
Dunn claims he heard one of the boys threaten to kill him, and then he claims he saw a barrel of a shotgun, or maybe it was a stick, he says later. Police say there was no gun in the teens` car and that Dunn`s self- defense story does not match the evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bullet is that the -- the last shot (ph) of rounds, when the truck is backing away from you, you put four more sets (ph) in it. Four more shots into it. That`s an issue. So now, they`re backing away; it`s no longer a threat.
DUNN: Yes, sir. I understand that. And in my mind, he had a weapon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t shoot someone because in my mind they had a weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But in Florida, there`s something called stand your ground. Will that impact this case?
What`s your take on this case? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. And do not miss my interview with the victim`s parents tomorrow, right here on HLN, 7 p.m. Eastern.
Straight out to the Lion`s Den. Let`s start with actress Sheryl Lee Ralph from Nickelodeon`s "Instant Mom." Yes, he says, "In my mind, they had a gun."
And the officer says, "Well, you know, you can`t get away with just saying `in my mind.`" But we have this stand-your-ground law that has not been repealed. It`s still there. That raises the question of, well, if he had a belief, could that be an excuse to kill?
RALPH: You know, it`s interesting. People can say, "You`re eating popcorn in this movie theater with your phone on," and then shoot you. "You`ve got your music up loud. The windows are shaking. I`m going to shoot you." At some point, it has got to stop. We all need to take a break, because just because people do things that we do not like does not mean -- give us the right to take out our guns and shoot them. Too many people are walking around with guns and going postal and shooting people.
The boys were listening to some music. The fact is, you can turn on your radio and feel like you`ve been sexually assaulted by some of the lyrics of some of the music, but we don`t go around shooting the radio. We just shoot the kids. Stop it! Stand your ground. Give me a break!
VELEZ-MITCHELL: At issue is the number of times he fired. Because Michael Dunn admitted that he fired at least eight shots.
RALPH: How many?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: At least eight shots at this SUV of teenagers, while his girlfriend is inside the gas station trying to buy chips and wine. And what he did next left investigators completely floored. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gets in the car, you guys leave, drive, go back to the hotel room. You guys stay in the hotel room? Did you go anywhere else?
DUNN: No, we ordered out. We ordered a pizza.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The problem, I can tell you, where we start to kind of get a little wondering is, by the time you say you get to your hotel room, you`re calling to order pizza. Why aren`t you calling us?
DUNN: I wanted to come back to my hometown to do that. And our dogs and everybody were where they needed to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Simone Bienne, behavior expert, he leaves the scene, goes to the hotel and orders pizza and then falls asleep with the TV on, wakes up the next day and then goes back, drives all the way back to his hometown. He does not call 911.
BIENNE: Look, first of all Jane, the thing that I think is going to screw him big time is what he said in this last clip, which is in my mind - - in my mind, I think dating either Angelina Jolie or (inaudible) -- it`s not reality.
And for him, at best you`re going to say he`s disillusioned and in shock by what he did. But given all the evidence and the picture we`re building up of him, I think he is so guilty. And, please, let`s not have another Zimmerman. We can`t have that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well -- ok, Adam Swickle, criminal defense attorney. Go ahead.
SWICKLE: Here is the problem. In the Stand Your Ground law in the state of Florida, it really turns (AUDIO GAP) perception. Reality is not really what`s the focus on the case -- it`s what that individual perceived and whether or not what they perceived caused them to act in a reasonable manner. It is a very, very difficult law many times for prosecutors to get a conviction because of the way in which it`s worded but this gentleman --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy. Wendy Murphy --
SWICKLE: This person saw something that believed for him to have to shoot.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- former prosecutor --
SWICKLE: And that`s going to be a reasonable --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is it possible, Wendy Murphy, that he could say, I thought they had a gun without any -- they didn`t have a gun, according to cops at all.
SWICKLE: Of course.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he could claim -- oh I thought and get away with it, given Stand Your Ground, Wendy?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, look it. He can claim anything he wants. Is the jury going to believe it? And then, even if they do believe it will it reasonable? That`s where he won`t win. He can say and he might even come across as sincere, "I thought they had a gun".
But I think the jury is likely to think you thought they were carrying a weapon because you`re racist and you think black people have weapons. That`s the problem. There really was no weapon. He lied. He didn`t call 911, shot eight times. It makes no sense as a Stand Your Ground case. He can`t win.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This trial starts next week. We will have the victim`s parents joining me here tomorrow night. And we`re going to stay all over this case, starting next week, every single development. Please join us as we debate this important case.
And then tonight, in just a little bit, we`re going to talk about you won`t believe what Justin Bieber is doing now. I mean yes -- turned himself in for assault and you will not believe who is defending him.
Hint, Canada, Toronto, out of control behavior -- stay right there on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you attack --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Justin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up, back up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her father`s fiancee, 25-year-old Melinda Muniz, they know detectives have their own take on what happened, that Muniz herself is responsible for what happened to Grace and the cover-up.
Charged with capital murder for Grace Ford`s death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, this is just gut-wrenching. It`s sickening. It`s disgusting. A Texas woman accused of viciously murdering her fiance`s precious two-year-old girl and then faking a home invasion and a rape in order to try to cover it up. Ok?
Cops say this jilted woman murdered this beautiful little girl, this angel, out of revenge because the toddler`s dad had just dumped her because she had texted a topless video of herself to her personal trainer.
Here is the accused killer 25-year-old Melinda Muniz singing on YouTube a few months ago. Listen to this.
(MELINDA MUNIZ SINGING)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a travesty that she`s singing that song given that she is charged with capital murder and being held on a million dollars bond accused of suffocating two-year-old Grace Ford. Cops say she originally tried to pin the crime on some mystery fictional home invader. Investigators say they discovered the apartment a total wreck, furniture tipped over, things everywhere, Melinda`s mouth -- that`s the suspect`s mouth -- duct taped, her pants pulled down. And then little Grace, beautiful little child, unconscious in her crib with duct tape over her mouth, too; the child later died.
Well, Melinda`s story didn`t check out. Cops found surveillance video from a nearby dollar store showing this little girl on a shopping trip with the suspect as the suspect buys supplies for the murder, with the child she`s going to kill in the shopping cart, according to police. I mean, honestly? Cops say she took the two-year-old she planned to kill on a shopping trip where she bought the duct tape, the zip ties, the kitchen shears, those big scissors and the cotton swabs.
Lisa Lockwood, investigator, author of "Undercover Angel", this is one of the most evil things I ever heard that she took this innocent little girl shopping for the tools she allegedly used to murder her -- absolutely pure evil.
LISA LOCKWOOD, INVESTIGATOR: She found out earlier that day that her fiance was going to leave her and came up with a plan very quickly on how to stage a murder scene, go out and purchase all the items that she was going to need, set up the crime scene in such a way that she would not be found guilty, thinking she wouldn`t be found guilty. And lo and behold we have footage of her picking up and purchasing those items.
They didn`t find any -- any assault whatsoever that she was alleging had happened to her. And motive -- you want to know what motive is? Motive is once again, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. She was going to be left by her man so what can she do? She can go ahead and kill his child.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The psychosis that it would take. Look at this woman. She`s an attractive woman. I mean -- I don`t get it, Simone. I don`t understand how people can get this sick, this evil.
BIENNE: I know, Jane. I know. It`s just so, so traumatic. And what is so disgusting is yes, absolutely, this is a woman scorned, this a woman like possessed by the devil. And she sounds like Jodi Arias, doesn`t she? And we`re talking about staging the intruder.
And what is so sick is she would have done that to manipulate the guy so that he doesn`t leave her, so that she then becomes the victim, so that she gets his sympathy, so that she can offer her sympathy to him. It is -- she`s a monster of all proportions.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Friends and family were worried about the safety of this precious little Grace. Here is this child. It breaks my heart. Look, here she is, the little girl singing in the car.
That poor child I would hope is in a better place right now.
Here is another just irritating, aggravating frustrating, aspect -- Child Protective Services was called to the apartment four times. Three of those calls within the last six months. And the affidavit says that the little girl, Grace`s granddad contacted CPS just two days before the incident begging them to reopen the case. He claimed the pattern of abuse began when this woman Melinda moved in with the dad, Brian, when they moved in together.
Sheryl Lee Ralph, had CPS responded immediately, this child would be alive today.
SHERYL LEE RALPH, TV PERSONALITY: And it`s such a heinous crime. When you think of these little babies, you`re talking about two years old, they are fragile. They cannot be shaken, they cannot be roughed up. Maybe she didn`t even think she was going to kill her if she taped up her mouth. The poor child was probably so stressed that she ended up asphyxiating being strangled.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you buy that Wendy? That said she didn`t mean to kill her? Do you buy that that she didn`t mean to kill her?
MURPHY: No, no. But I will say this. A rageful human being can do very vindictive things either to the person or to the kid. But it`s mostly men. Men mostly kill women and children to punish women who have the audacity to leave them.
I`m not excusing it. But we have to get our heads around the idea that just because she`s female doesn`t mean she`s not brutal. But what do the numbers really look like? Men kill their children a lot.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is an aberration. It is an aberration, a sick, evil, twisted aberration. We`re going to stay on top of this case.
At the top of the hour Nancy Grace has more on this sick stunner of a case at 8:00 p.m. Eastern right here in just a couple of minutes. So stay right there.
Up next, the Biebs -- you won`t believe what he`s done now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two countries, two arrests.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Justin. Did you attack --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey Justin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s just a vulnerable kid trying to figure it out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a chaotic scene: cameras, cops, screaming fans -- Justin Bieber turning himself in to Toronto police on an assault charge. The pop superstar hot off his DUI arrest in Miami Beach, now accused of attacking a limo driver in his home country, Canada. Cops say it happened last month after the Biebs and his entourage left a Toronto Maple Leaf game.
The limo driver claims while he`s chauffeuring the 19-year-old and some of his friends he was repeatedly hit in the back of the head by one of the passengers. He said by the time he pulled over and called the cops, the Biebs had fled. Cops say he wasn`t clear if the attack was actually Justin Bieber or part of his entourage.
Bieber pleaded not guilty to the assault charge. But the singer does not seem fazed by this latest brush with the law. Minutes before turning himself in, he posted this Instagram video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUSTIN BIEBER, SINGER: Is the camera on? Oh yes, it is. All right. What`s up guys? , Justin here, "Confidence" is out right now Vivo and YouTube. (inaudible) go get it, go look at it, go comment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`m happy he`s not slurring his words there. He was promoting his latest music video, happens to be called "Confidence".
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In a second we`re going to tell you what the troubled crack mayor of Toronto was saying about his fellow Canadian bad boy.
Straight out to the "Lion`s Den", oh, my gosh. This hunk, crack superstar, I don`t know what you`re going to call him now, has three open criminal cases in three different cities, in two countries.
I have to ask you, Kinsey Schofield, social commentator, I know you know you`re connected somehow to his manager, where are his handlers? Who is getting a grip on this out of control terrible teen?
KINSEY SCHOFIELD, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: They did get a grip on him. They got him to Toronto to turn himself in and right now, they`re on Twitter, I don`t know if you`ve seen Scooter`s tweeting. He`s tweeting for everybody to calm down, to lay off his parents. That nobody knows, you know, the full story.
So they`ve finally gotten a-hold of him. It`s just going to be a long process. I mean we are in a lot of trouble right now. It`s going to take a while.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re not in a lot of trouble. He`s in a lot of trouble. I have no connection.
Toronto`s favorite black sheep mayor -- although I find that (inaudible) -- Rob Ford, ok, he`d be lucky to be a black sheep. He`s getting in on the action. Yes, he`s defending this troubled Canadian superstar. Here`s what Mayor Ford told CBS Radio`s "Sports Junky" just a little while ago
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is going on with Canada`s worst export, Justin Bieber. You guys can have him back. We don`t want him anywhere in the United States of America.
ROB FORD, MAYOR OF TORONTO: Well, you know what, he`s a young guy. At 19 years old, I wish I was as successful as he was. He`s 19 years old guys, think back to when you were 19, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sheryl Lee Ralph, I hope we have that video of this guy. Let`s show some video of Rob Ford acting completely out of control. Is it something in the water in Toronto?
RALPH: Listen. I think Canada is an incredible country. I love it. I`ve been there several times. But when it comes to little Justin Bieber, we have to remember he is a teenager and the frontal lobe of young people does not develop, especially in young men, until later in life. So they make bad, bad mistakes.
His have got to be stopped though -- cocaine, hitting people -- this is all adding up to him becoming like the mayor.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I must say there`s no proof that he`s involved --
RALPH: We don`t want that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- with cocaine. Pot and Xanax, yes -- that came back positive. We`re going to talk about that on the other side. The Xanax, positive for Xanax in his urine, positive for pot -- so why didn`t they arrest him when they found Xanax, they believe, in his mansion in Los Angeles. Why did they arrest the other kid?
Stay right there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The new music video "Confidence". Justin`s dad tweeted this photo of Justin asleep next to his little brother with the caption "Safe and sound". Oh really?
Toxicology reports now confirm Xanax and pot were in Justin`s system when he was arrested in Miami. And Simone Bienne, this raises the whole question. Remember when cops raided his Calabasas mansion looking for evidence of the egg-throwing incident and they found what they believe was ecstasy and Xanax but they arrested his African-American friend, Lil Za. They did not arrest Justin?
Now we find that he had Xanax in his system. To me that questions why didn`t they arrest him for the Xanax found in his house in Calabasas?
BIENNE: Sadly this is a guy that is so incredibly powerful despite the fact he is just 19. We know how many Twitter followers he`s got.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: 49 million.
BIENNE: Actually Jane -- 49 million yes, a lot, a lot, a lot. The point is though they should have arrested him because you and I both know that if you have any kind of drug problem, you either go to the police or you go to rehab. One of those things is going to sort you out. And we want this kid to be ok.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kinsey do you agree -- should he have been arrested for the Xanax?
SCHOFIELD: Well I don`t know if he doesn`t have a prescription for that. That`s my concern. Maybe they arrested Za because Za is the only in the house who doesn`t have a prescription for it. Justin may very well have a prescription for it. So I don`t know if we are jumping to conclusions there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sheryl Lee?
RALPH: Listen, sometimes you have a big entourage so that you can do what you do and other people can take the fall for what you do. That`s what they get paid for. So you can do what -- go on and make millions with the music that you are doing.
We have two big Bs in this business -- one is Beyonce and right behind Beyonce is Bieber.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh. All right. We are out of time, but what a great line to wrap it up with.
Nancy is going to be up in a second. Stay right there.