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NANCY GRACE

Welfare Money for Pot?; Drunk-Driving Killing Machine

Aired January 30, 2014 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Off the top, live to Colorado. After the state of Colorado literally runs out of pot when they legalize weed, now insult heaps (ph) on injury!

Bombshell tonight. The state of Colorado OKs spending welfare money at the pot shop! Yes, that's right, spending welfare money out of our pockets meant for children's food and clothing on pot. Will it never end?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Colorado lawmakers saying it's OK to use welfare money at a pot shop! That's right, money meant to help feed families, people using Uncle Sam's helping hand to get high! Welfare money is mean to help those in need. Since when does that include getting people high? Why go use your bank card at the pot shop ATM drain your account to get high when you can use welfare funds?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, Albuquerque suburbs, a drunk-driving killing machine! A cruel coincidence links a drunk-driving killer to yet another deadly fatal crash with him stinking drunk behind the wheel. Why wasn't he still in jail for his first drunk driving murder?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lightning strikes twice as police charge a New Mexico man who killed someone while drunk driving eight years ago with doing it again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-seven-year-old Jacob William (ph) hitting 51-year-old Daniel Sanchez (INAUDIBLE) riding his motorcycle with his 11- year-old daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's his brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now Judge Sanchez's own family member the victim.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And live, New Hampshire suburbs, a furious husband unloads seven bullets into his school teacher wife just inches from their toddler son in the family bedroom. Motive? After spying on her e-mails and cell phone, James Periello (ph) discovers his wife, the mother of their four children -- and she's up for teacher of the year -- having sex with her elementary school boy student? There's a fine line between love and hate!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A mother of four who is also a high school teacher shot and killed by her husband.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because the wife was having an affair with a former student.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Told the operator he had shot his wife, Natalie (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three of the children couple's children were found in a back bedroom unhurt. His 3-year-old son was still on Natalie's bed, a bullet hole on the windowframe above his head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not safe right now. It's scary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And live, Maryland, 3-year-old little girl Harmony (ph) abandoned by her parents at Chuck E. Cheese?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chuck E. Cheese, a place for fun video games and yummy pizza, but fun turns to fear after a 3-year-old girl is left all alone by her family! Employees discover the girl 8:00 o'clock on Sunday night after she says she's thirsty and needs a drink, her parents nowhere to be found when police arrive!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And a female neighbor befriends an 8-months-pregnant Worcester woman, tricks her way into the home, then murders Mom-to-be, physically cutting the baby out of Mommy's tummy, then goes on to pose as a radiant new mom herself. The murder trial kicks off. Tonight, we obtain stunning but graphic crime scene photos.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Julie Cory was pregnant. She had a stillbirth. (INAUDIBLE) for this woman, prosecution saying that she lost this baby and that's why maybe she wanted a baby so bad that she would go so far as to cut one out of another woman's stomach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darlene's body lay decomposing in her bedroom closet, with an electrical cord still wrapped twice around her neck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. Off the top to Colorado. After Colorado literally runs out of pot when they legalize weed, now insult heaps on injury. Bombshell tonight. The state of Colorado OKs spending welfare money at the pot shop! That's right, spending welfare money out of our pockets, meant for children's food and clothing -- spend it on pot? Will it never end in the state of Colorado?

We are taking your calls. First to Randy Corporon, talk show host at KLZ, Denver. Randy, so now, you know, welfare benefits for those that need state money to support their family -- you don't go and present an ID or something at the grocery store anymore. You have something like an ATM card. And with that, you put your welfare card into an ATM and it spits out money. But now Colorado says, Hey, it's OK to spend your welfare money meant for your children at the pot shop!

RANDY CORPORON, KLZ 560 DENVER (via telephone): Well, that's right, Nancy. The Colorado state legislature had an opportunity to ban the use of these EBT cards to draw welfare benefits out in Colorado, and by a 3-to-2 committee party-line vote, Democrats said no.

GRACE: What is wrong with them, Randy? I mean, look, I'm not slamming welfare right now, but to spend your welfare money that is meant for your children at the weed shop? You use your welfare card, your welfare ATM, that's how it works, at the weed store? And that's OK?

CORPORON: Well, and in Colorado, Nancy, it's already illegal to use those cards at casinos, at gun shops and at liquor stores. And the bill that was trying to be passed here in Colorado by Republicans was going to...

GRACE: Lost their minds!

CORPORON: ... extend those same prohibitions to using EBT cards at strip clubs and at pot shops. Way too much common sense for the Democrat legislator.

GRACE: Joining me right now is Norm Kent, the president of the National Organization for Reform of Marijuana Laws. Also with me, Brad Lamm, addiction specialist and founder of Breathe Life Healing Centers -- Brad Lamm not just an addiction specialist, a former addict himself. Gentlemen, thank you for being with us.

All right, first to you, Norm Kent, the president of NORML, for the legalization of -- reform of marijuana laws. Norm, why is it OK to spend your welfare money in the weed shop?

NORM KENT, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR THE REFORM OF MARIJUANA LAWS: Well, I think you'll join with me in recognizing that the Colorado legislature...

GRACE: Is high on pot?

KENT: ... has prudently and wisely stated that marijuana has both medicinal...

GRACE: Oh...

KENT: ... and social healing values and that may be...

GRACE: Are you back on medicinal marijuana? Norm, let me just -- last time -- I am not arguing about medicinal marijuana. If medicinal marijuana makes a cancer patient free of pain, I'm all for it.

KENT: Thank you.

GRACE: I'm not talking about medicinal marijuana. And why is it, Brad Lamm, that it's OK in Colorado for me -- for me to work three jobs, which I do, plus raise my children, and I spend my money to help other people that are not as blessed as me, but they can spend that money at the pot shop? Why is that OK?

BRAD LAMM, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Well, it's the same old line you're getting from Norm, Nancy, the same old tired line where they prop up medical marijuana as the reason why there should be no laws that protect us, the taxpayers, from the dumb things that those that are stoned do.

And Nancy, I've had more negative response to my talking with you about pot than anything else over the years. You know, the folks that are...

GRACE: What do you mean by that?

LAMM: ... pot lobbyists are doing a very effective job in advocating for...

GRACE: Oh, I'm totally getting tarred and feathered. But you know, this is what I know, Brad. This is what I know. I spent 10 years...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I spent 10 years prosecuting felonies in inner-city Atlanta. I saw it all. And what I saw a lot of is people trafficking and people high on pot and committing crimes and ignoring their children. And I've been reading a recent study by our government that says marijuana users who use the drug have psychosis, hallucinations, delusion, loss of sense of personal identity, no coordination. And those are the people that are out driving and raising their children?

LAMM: And Nancy, this is important. The 21st century pot that people are smoking today is very different than pot from the '70s. It's much stronger. It's been GMO'd. It's been genetically modified to be stronger and have more impact. It is not innocuous. And for folks that are prone to addiction, it's a real problem.

GRACE: So Norm...

KENT: And Nancy...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... that every time I ask you a question, you start talking about cancer patients and medicinal marijuana. OK, put that out of your mind and focus on the question. Norm Kent, why do I work three jobs and the money that I give to the government to support less fortunate, less blessed people by welfare -- why can they spend that money out of my pocket on pot?

KENT: Well, first of all, Nancy, if the government empowers somebody to become a welfare recipient, they can't on the other hand tell that individual how they must spend their funds.

GRACE: Yes, they can.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Oh, yes they can!

KENT: And let me just add...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: That's not right.

KENT: ... on prohibition is -- I will answer your question if I can get the second point in. The war on...

GRACE: But the very first thing you said is not true!

KENT: ... prohibition (sic) is a failed experiment.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... KLZ, you know, there've been many times where people in the grocery line try to, for instance, buy cigarettes with welfare money, and sometimes cashiers go, No, that doesn't apply. You can't buy cigarettes with welfare money, all right? I have -- that has occurred on many occasions. Now, that's an anecdotal example, but typically, the government says that welfare benefits are for food and clothing, right?

CORPORON: Well, that's right, Nancy. Federal law already requires states to not (ph) prohibit the use of EBT cards and welfare benefits at liquor stores, casinos and strip clubs. That's already in place. So your other...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... did you hear him? Norm, Brad...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... blanks. That's not even a real bullet!

KENT: You're not -- well, I'd would like to fire something, but I have to be able...

GRACE: Hit me!

KENT: ... to speak to do so.

GRACE: OK.

KENT: A lot of these people that may be purchasing medables (ph) -- and I emphasize the word medables (ph) because they are medically infused and enhanced marijuana, whether it's brownies or Rice Crispy treats or even drinks -- are using this medicinally. You're presumptively concluding that anybody using marijuana in a dispensary is using it just to get high.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Brad, go ahead.

KENT: And Brad is buying into that lie.

GRACE: Brad?

LAMM: I'm so tired of the drug lobbyists preaching that these drugs are innocuous and do not have real potential for harm. At Breathe, we treat a lot of people that have come in with psychosis, with delusion, with the very symptoms you're talking about because of a primary pot addiction. So pot is not innocuous, Norm. You just have to start lying.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers...

(CROSSTALK)

KENT: ... a lobbyist, Brad. Regulation and legalization is a more mature approach...

GRACE: OK...

KENT: ... that you need to start advocating...

GRACE: That's not even what I'm talking to you about, Norm.

KENT: ... if you want to treat your clients well.

GRACE: Norm, again, every time I throw you a question, you start talking about medicinal marijuana. That's not the issue. I'm talking about welfare recipients using the money out of my pocket and my children's pocket, that I support...

LAMM: But Nancy...

GRACE: ... to buy pot. That's what I'm talking about, Brad Lamm!

LAMM: Are you surprised how vocal and attacking the marijuana lobbyists are? I mean, it's really through the roof. You don't see it for alcohol. You don't see it for cigarettes. But there is a dedicated group of folks that have gone on the offensive and are just trying to cut people off at the knees that are talking about the dangers and harm that can come with pot...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to Justin Freiman. With me, Norm Kent, Brad Lamm and Randy Corporon from Denver.

Justin, what more can you tell me?

JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Nancy, I can tell you that some lawmakers tried to block the use of this welfare money in pot shops, but that went down in flames because other lawmakers said that benefits recipients -- they might not be able to find other ATMs in the area. They might have to use the pot shops' ATMs.

GRACE: Oh, they have to use the ATM in the weed shop? Are you kidding me?

FREIMAN: Right, because there might not be another one nearby, and that's how they can get the money to then go use...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Why are they even in pot shop? Why are they even there?

KENT: And don't they need safety, as well? Don't they need to be able to...

LAMM: Come on, Norm!

KENT: ... to engage in a transaction inside the dispensary...

(CROSSTALK)

LAMM: People who are impaired with pot say dumb things, so I'm not surprised by a word that you say anymore on the NANCY GRACE show. But the idea that we're having an argument about ATMs in pot shops is just beyond, beyond, beyond.

GRACE: And you know, it's not...

KENT: Brad, for somebody...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Apparently, it's Norm!

KENT: ... is a joke.

(CROSSTALK)

KENT: You're suggesting that I'm impaired by pot. What if I was high and I was enhanced by pot? What if I was more creative? What if I was more artistic? What if I brought more to the table with my marijuana than you ever did with your meth?

GRACE: Well, you know what?

KENT: Why do you attack me personally...

GRACE: What if little green men...

KENT: ... when you're the one with the deficiency...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... smoking weed.

LAMM: But he makes a good point...

GRACE: Brad, it's not just an ATM in a pot shop. It's that you can use your welfare card. It's like an ATM. You put your welfare card in, and you get out money to spend at the pot shop.

KENT: Well, maybe the legislature has the sophistication to recognize that even a welfare...

GRACE: That was directed at Brad.

KENT: ... recipient (INAUDIBLE)

LAMM: Oh, I'm sorry. Well...

KENT: I was saying even a recipient of welfare is entitled to smoke.

(CROSSTALK)

KENT: Do you deny that, Nancy?

GRACE: Yes, I am. I am denying that. Maybe in your addled brain, yes, but not anywhere else but Colorado. OK, Brad, jump in.

KENT: The healthiest city in the country...

GRACE: OK, cut his mike!

KENT: ... Denver is, according to...

GRACE: I can't -- I can't do that. Hit it, Brad.

LAMM: (INAUDIBLE) same old points. The truth is this. The government has the ability to make certain laws that protect us, as taxpayers and as people who are trying to take care of each other and do the right thing. And it seems clear that we don't need to have welfare EBT cards working in pot shops, end of story, period, the end.

GRACE: To Randy Corporon with KLZ. Randy, I don't understand how the people of Colorado -- one thing, the legislature legalized weed, all right, and not medicinal weed. But now their money -- they're all working, and yes, I agree. I want my tax dollars to go to people that need help, all right, because I think that's the right thing. But not help in lining up to buy weed, all right? That's not where I want my money to go.

CORPORON: Well, Nancy, two things. One, it adds a new meaning to the state slogan "'Tis a privilege to live in Colorado." Number two, it was the people in a referendum voted to amend the constitution to legalize pot. It's the state legislature and a committee run by democrats that failed to pass the law to prevent this welfare abuse and stop people from accessing cash at pot shops.

GRACE: Everybody, when we come back, a drunk-driving killing machine linked to yet another deadly fatal crash with him stinking drunk behind the wheel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the second time it's happened. It just seems like there could be something more done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: And now, Albuquerque suburbs, a drunk-driving killing machine. A cruel coincidence links a drunk-driving killer to yet another deadly crash with him stinking drunk behind the wheel. Why wasn't he still in jail for his first drunk-driving murder?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a bizarre coincidence, a new Mexico man who hit and killed a motorcyclist in 2006 is now charged with causing the DUI death of another man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Williams, then 19, was sentenced to six years behind bars. And it was this man, Judge William Sanchez, who handed down that punishment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. It's his brother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Clara Garcia, editor at "Valencia County News Bulletin." This guy has already had a drunk driving fatality, where he mowed down, as I recall, a father who was driving on a motorcycle with his daughter. The father was killed. The daughter was gravely injured. And now he's done it again?

CLARA GARCIA, "VALENCIA COUNTY NEWS BULLETIN" (via telephone): Yes. In the first case, it was a man in and his friend who were driving the motorcycle. And Jacob Williams hit and -- hit the motorcycle, killed Quinn (ph) Sanchez and paralyzed Mary Ann Madrid (ph). In Saturday's crash, he hit Mr. Sanchez, Danny Sanchez, and gravely injured his daughter, Megan (ph).

GRACE: So it was the father and the daughter the second time.

GARCIA: Right.

GRACE: Sheryl McCollum, former director of Moms Against Drunk Driving in Georgia -- Sheryl, you know, you gave me a statistic one time that was off the chart. Every time you're caught driving drunk, you've actually driven drunk how many times?

SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST (via telephone): About 80.

GRACE: And what I don't get, Sheryl -- and you know, Sheryl you and I worked in the trenches together as victims' rights advocates. What I don't understand is why he got out of jail after the first drunk driving murder.

MCCOLLUM: Exactly. And the sad thing is, Nancy, it looks like the judge gave him the most he could at the time under the law. So again, what we see here is somebody that can take a life and do six years. And it is a cruel (INAUDIBLE) of irony that it's the judge's brother...

GRACE: But Sheryl, he got sentenced to six years. I think he did a little less than three years for killing somebody and running down a motorcycle with two people on it while he was drunk. He gets out in I think a little under years for that murder. Then he does it again. I don't understand. Why wasn't he under some type of supervision, Sheryl?

MCCOLLUM: Oh, he probably was, Nancy. But again, we're dealing with somebody that is habitual. His addiction supersedes anything. He has lost a brother himself to a drunk driver.

GRACE: Oh! Back to Clara...

(CROSSTALK)

MCCOLLUM: ... stop this guy, not his own victimization...

GRACE: Clara Garcia with...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... "News Bulletin," what happened at the hearing today, Clara?

GARCIA: Mr. Williams pleaded not guilty through his attorney. The judge enhanced his bond to $500,000 cash only.

GRACE: With me is Clara Garcia, "Valencia County News Bulletin." You know, Sheryl, it seems like no matter how much we beat the drum, drunk driving doesn't -- is not taken as seriously as other crimes. But you know what? You speak to those drunk driving victims's families, and they don't see it that way. That father is dead, the little girl gravely injured. And then the last victim that was killed by this guy. He is a drunk- driving killing machine. He's going to get out and he's going to do it again, Sheryl!

MCCOLLUM: No question. He will continue to be a menace on the roads and continue to kill people. It will not matter if we take his license. It doesn't matter if he doesn't have insurance. The only way to stop this guy is keep him locked up.

GRACE: Everybody, when we come back, a furious husband unloads seven bullets into his school teacher wife in the family bedroom. Motive, she's having sex with her elementary school boy student.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Live, New Hampshire suburbs, a furious husband unloads seven bullets into a school teacher wife. It's there in the family bedroom motive?

The mother of their four children, she's even up for Teacher of the Year. He's been spying on her e-mails and cell phone and discovers she's having sex with her elementary school boy student.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police found the body of Natalie Perriello face down in a pool of blood in her bedroom. She was shot seven times.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators say it was the victim's husband, 41-year-old James Perriello, who shot her with a hand gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here grabbed her by the shirt and pulled her shirt up over her head. That's when he put that gun and he put a bullet right there.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The husband allegedly told coworkers days before the murder that he, quote, "ought to just kill his wife", after discovering her affair with a 20-year-old who was once her elementary school student.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to WABC news anchor Noam Laden.

Noam, it can't possibly be a case of self-defense because if you look at the bullets, first of all there's seven, she's unarmed, they're are in the family bedroom. Their toddler child is in the room just inches away from the mom. The day before he tells the coworker I ought to just kill her and he shoots her seven times. One of those times is in the finger as she's holding her hand up to her face to protect herself from the shot.

He shoots her in the hand. Then the other shots are actually close range if not point blank, including to the head and torso. There's no way he can claim either self-defense or accident.

NOAM LADEN, WABC NEWS ANCHOR: No. I mean, you know, especially what -- so you can say the first bullet, right, the hands up, the bullet hit the finger and then the shirt, as the prosecutors and the police say, he pulls the shirt up on Natalie, then fires the other six bullets into her head.

And the gun jammed. Maybe he was going to fire even more bullets but the gun jammed and he puts it down and calls the cops.

GRACE: And where was the toddler child when all this was happening?

LADEN: In the room. In the room with him. He's killing his wife with his child looking on.

GRACE: With me, Noam Laden, news anchor from WABC.

Noam, another issue. I don't see how they can claim like temporary insanity or really even heat of passion because the day before he was telling coworkers, I should have just killed her, and he has actually been spying on her cell phone and e-mails and he discovers she's been having sex with her former elementary schoolboy student. That's what throws them over the edge.

LADEN: Yes. Well, so, you know, Natalie reconnects with the student that she taught in elementary school through Facebook. There is some sort of hot and heavy romance that's going on online initially. He moves back to her hometown and then gets physical. And at that point that James finds out what's going on.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold on, Noam. We were just showing a shot of James Perriello, the 42-year-old husband.

Unleash the lawyers. Parag Shah, defense attorney and author of "The Code." Also with us out of Chicago, Louis Gaynor, defense attorney.

All right, first of all to you, Parag Shah, I don't see how it could possibly be self-defense. She is unarmed lying on the bed. And I think she was lying on the bed. He shoots her seven times. Some at point blank close range and he tells the friend the day before I ought to just kill her.

PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "THE CODE": Well, I think it's definitely heat of passion. Simply because he's talking to his friends, men say things about their wives to other men --

GRACE: Like I should kill her?

SHAH: -- in a jokingly manner. It can't be --

GRACE: No, no. Please put her up. What do you mean? You know, I've never joked about killing my husband because I don't think that's funny. That maybe that's just my line of business.

SHAH: You can't take that statement and jump it to intent to kill. And in addition --

GRACE: I know that you're wearing a wedding -- ring the way you keep holding your hand over your face, which I'm sure means something about nonverbal communication. That aside, do you joke about murdering your wife?

SHAH: No, I don't joke about murdering my wife.

GRACE: OK, why not? Because it's not funny and not a joke.

SHAH: But men joke about their wives in different aspects. And who knows what the --

GRACE: Really? About murdering them?

SHAH: Who knows what context was in which he said that. But it can't be linked that just because he said that it means intent to kill.

GRACE: Well, hold on. Louis Gaynor, defense attorney, Chicago, many a true word is spoken in gist. Now if you took his words in a vacuum and you didn't know that the next day he kills his wife, then maybe. But those two are forever together. They are forever linked together in this case. He said the day before I ought to kill her, the next day he kills her.

LOUIS GAYNOR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, let's not forget the most important fact that the defense has. He's going through a divorce. He and his wife were estranged. When people go through that experience, it's traumatizing and they don't act stable. And so in this case he might say a lot of things that he didn't mean. He's just expressing his emotion. But you can't say that that means that he intended to do it.

The fact of the matter is he had a sudden intense provocation. He found out his wife was sleeping with one of her former students. OK?

GRACE: Well, see, I differ with you on that, Louis Gaynor.

GAYNOR: I mean, what else do you need in the world of proof --

GRACE: Because he did not find that out right before he shot her. He had known this for a while.

I mean, Caryn Stark, he had been -- psychologist joining me out of New York, you know, to listen to Gaynor and Parag Shah, he just found out about the affair with the elementary schoolboy. The know -- he had been reading her cell phone texts, monitoring her e-mails and phone calls for some time. He had known for a long time his wife was having an affair with the former elementary schoolboy.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Exactly. It's premeditated, Nancy. He was able to say that. He was able to express this ahead of time. And let me say that he could leave her, he could divorce her, separate from her, but kill her? That means that he has a propensity towards rage. Something is wrong with this man.

GRACE: To Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining me out of Philadelphia, the fact that some of the bullets or so many bullets, but some of them were at close range and the first shot was in the hand. What does that say to you, Doctor?

DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, that's a classic defense wound. She's putting her hand up to try to block the bullet or grab the gun. And that's -- that looks very bad against him. And then this overkill, firing over and over and over again, makes him look very, very guilty and he brings a gun to the bedroom. Why does he bring a gun to the bedroom? So --

GRACE: Yes. Whoa, whoa. Good point, Manion. Maybe in your spare time you should work on that law degree.

Unleash the lawyers. Parag Shah, Louis Gaynor.

Gaynor, why does he bring a gun into the bedroom, a loaded gun into the bedroom with his wife and his toddler?

GAYNOR: What's the most common occurrence with a divorce? Domestic violence. We don't know if that was a peaceful household. It's probably the opposite. In fact it goes both ways.

GRACE: I don't know what you're saying. I'm asking why did he bring a gun into the bedroom if he didn't mean to kill her.

GAYNOR: Because perhaps at that point he's not stable as I suggested. He's under strong sudden provocation. He's insane.

GRACE: OK, Shah. Let's see -- no, no, no. He's not insane. He was talking about the murder the day before, Parag Shah.

SHAH: Look, I think he -- based on his statement, he was trying to scare her. And --

GRACE: Scare her? Did you -- did you actually -- can I see Parag Shah, please.

Did you actually fix your mouth to say he was trying to scare her?

(CROSSTALK)

SHAH: He said he was going to scare her.

GRACE: And whoops, shot her seven times. You know what, with that, when we come back, live to Maryland, a 3-year-old little girl abandoned by her parents at Chuck E. Cheese?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Live, Maryland, a 3-year-old little girl, Harmony, abandoned by her parents and left at Chuck E. Cheese?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How did it happen? Reports say after a fun night at Chuck E. Cheese, her family leaves. One problem. Their 3-year- old girl finds a token and goes back inside. Nobody in her family realizes. Chuck E. Cheese employees soon call police. But the family can't be located immediately. Authorities quickly scramble to find the 3- year-old girl's parents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A 3-year-old little girl abandoned at Chuck E. Cheese? Very quickly, Clark Goldband, abandoned a 3-year-old at Chuck E. Cheese? I mean, aren't pedophiles just like circling Chuck E. Cheese in cars waiting for somebody to be abandoned?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, Nancy, Chuck E. Cheese has thought of this and let me tell you how they keep the children safe. You see it behind me. It's their Kid Check program right here. You get an invisible ink stamp on your arm so does your child and you're not allowed to leave.

Now the only problem with that is if you leave with no child, you're not checked so therefore the child was safe inside Chuck E. Cheese.

The parents, Nancy, they don't realize the child is gone until they see the child on the evening news that night.

GRACE: OK. How many hours passed? Out to Michael Filippelli, a news director at WCBM.

Michael, how many hours passed before anybody noticed the 3-year-old was gone?

MICHAEL FILIPPELLI, NEWS DIRECTOR, WCBM: Well, it was about an hour and a half after the patients left Harmony approached the Chuck E. Cheese employees saying she was thirsty, and then they looked for her parents, they couldn't find her. Then they called the local sheriff's department who came about a half hour later. They waited another hour and a half to see if the patients would rush back in, but they never did.

GRACE: So, Clark Goldband, explain to me again how Chuck E. Cheese and it's not just Chuck E. Cheese, it's Legoland, it's jumpy houses, many of them have cautions to protect kids. Because this is a -- a child sex predator hunting ground. They just wait for a moment for a child to be abandoned at a place like Chuck E. Cheese or a jumpy house.

GOLDBAND: Right.

GRACE: But Chuck E. Cheese bends over backwards to protect -- I think they do.

GOLDBAND: Yes, they do, Nancy. And you know what, it could just be a freak thing and that's what they were worried about even if a kid just tries to run out. You cannot run out unless you have a matching stamp between the parent and the child. But look what we found on their Web site. This program is not a substitute for adult supervision. And luckily some quick thinking Chuck E. Cheese employees were able to stop this.

But, Nancy, get this. This is not the first time this happened at a Chuck E. Cheese and not even the first time that this happened at this Chuck E. Cheese. Sometimes the parents are not located for over a day later.

Even in one instance, Nancy, we found the birthday child who was celebrating their birthday party at a local Chuck E. Cheese, guess what. The parents forgot the birthday child and didn't realize until the next morning when they didn't know why they couldn't find the child to get ready for school.

GRACE: Parag Shah, what are you laughing at? I mean, when -- I can see you on the monitor. When Clark was telling that story, you started laughing.

Shah, do you have children?

SHAH: No, I don't have children.

GRACE: It's not so --

SHAH: I'm laughing because I think it's so -- I'm thinking it's so ridiculous --

GRACE: No, it's not that fun when it's real life.

SHAH: -- that these parents left their children. I just -- I can't believe it happened.

GRACE: And that's funny to you.

You know, Caryn Stark, it's funny when it's Kevin on "Home Alone." All right? Home Alone 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It's not so funny when it's real and there are sex predators and there are people that want to kill the children, that want to use them, abandon them or worse. It's not so funny anymore.

STARK: And it's not funny when it happens to children in real life, Nancy. This is not a movie. I know you. You are a responsible mother.

What would make a parent, especially with such a young child not check with another parent to see how the child is doing?

GRACE: Yes. You know what, Louis Gaynor, let me throw that at you since Parag Shah is yacking it up on the set, what about it?

GAYNOR: Well, what everyone seems to forget here is that having children is hard work. OK? And parents make mistakes.

GRACE: I haven't forgotten that.

GAYNOR: This doesn't mean they should be prosecuted with a crime.

GRACE: I am up until 1:30 at night --

GAYNOR: Everybody is an expert on how to raise --

GRACE: -- and check on them all night long, convinced they're going to be kidnapped. Yes, it is hard, but so far I haven't abandoned my children at a child sex predator hunting ground.

GAYNOR: But apparently the people that made the phone call to the police to get the child were the parents. They split custody with the child, then each of them had assumed that the other had the child. OK?

GRACE: Have you seen "Home Alone"?

GAYNOR: So it was an innocent mistake.

GRACE: Put him up.

GAYNOR: And nobody got hurt.

GRACE: Gaynor, have you seen "Home Alone"?

GAYNOR: Uh-huh. I've seen it.

GRACE: Have you seen 1, 2, and 3?

GAYNOR: Wouldn't pay my money to pay the sequels, but I saw the first one, Nancy.

GRACE: So busted. OK, Gaynor, it's funny when it's in a movie. It's not so funny when it's in real life. Happy to report Harmony --

GAYNOR: But she didn't get hurt.

GRACE: OK.

GAYNOR: She's back home safe. She didn't get hurt.

GRACE: No thanks to the parents abandoning her.

GAYNOR: OK. She'll be fine.

GRACE: Frankly you owe that to Chuck E. Cheese because they don't let children leave without a parent with the same invisible ink on their wrist like Clark Goldband was just telling us.

Everybody, thank God Harmony, 3 years old, managed to eke through on that one.

When we come back, a female neighbor murders a mother-to-be, physically cutting the baby out of the mom's stomach. The murder trial kicks off and tonight stunning but graphic crime scene photos.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: A female neighbor accused of murdering a mother-to-be, physically cutting the baby out of mommy's tummy. She goes on to pose as a radiant new bride herself. The murder trial kicking off as we obtain stunning but graphic crime scene photos.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The ex-boyfriend of the woman accused of killing her pregnant neighbor and cutting the baby out of her womb describes the hours after the murder when Julie Corey arrived at her home holding a new baby with blood still on the newborn. He immediately noticed the umbilical cord was still attached.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: With me is John Hill, at the courthouse, reporter with MassLive.com. He's been in court today.

John, I understand some gruesome and graphic photos were introduced. Let me warn the viewers, these photos are very, very disturbing. But this is what the jury saw.

Liz, you can roll the photos now that the viewers understand.

I take it from these photos that the murder occurred on the bed, John Hill?

JOHN HILL, REPORTER, MASSLIVE.COM: Yes, that's right. That's what we think happened. The murder occurred on the bed. And then the victim was left wrapped in a blanket in the closet.

GRACE: John, it's amazing to me that this woman, Julie Corey, had been pregnant.

Everyone, again, let me warn you these are graphic crime scene photos, the mom is bludgeoned, asphyxiated and carved up like a deer in hunting season. Her uterus is cut through and through and this woman, Julie Corey, accused of ripping the mom's uterus open and physically taking the baby out of her stomach.

We learn that she had been pregnant and had a stillbirth. She miscarried. Then she hatches this plot, according to prosecutors.

John hill, did photos come into evidence of this woman's baby -- oh, there they are. Tell me about the baby shower she had, John Hill.

HILL: Yes, well, we heard testimony today from Julie Corey's boyfriend, Alex Zion, who was the supposed father of the baby and, you know, they behaved, you know, like a very normal couple. Had a baby shower, had presents, were registered, the whole bit.

GRACE: So let me get this straight, Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host, joining me. So she had been pregnant. She miscarries. You know, and a lot of us have been through that. But then she, what, uses the presents from that baby shower and just uses them on the baby she cut out of mommy's tummy?

DAVE MACK, MORNING TALK SHOW HOST, CLEAR CHANNEL WAAX RADIO: Apparently. Nancy, I would tell you, one of the sickest parts -- being a parent, and I know this is hard for you to even look at these pictures and imagine what this mother, this 23-year-old mother-to-be was excited about having her baby only to have a friend bash her skull, strangulate, and then cut the baby from her womb in the most graphic torturous way.

And then use those baby gifts for this child. It is just disgusting and despicable.

GRACE: Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner out of Philly, I've been corrected you are an M.D. and a J.D.

Dr. Manion, what did that mom go through as she was lying there in the throes of death having her stomach and her uterus cut open and the baby physically yanked out of her stomach?

MANION: Well, from the evidence, I hope she had already lost consciousness. She had suffered many skull fractures. She had the electrical cord around her throat. So hopefully she had lost consciousness and was dead.

They said there was not much blood from the incision in the womb and the uterus. And if there's not much blood, that suggests she had already died.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Did she cut the baby out of mommy's tummy?

To John Hill, reporter at MassLive.com, in court today, you're about to see graphic photos that came in before the jury today.

John, what do these photos depict and what was the jury's reaction and defendant Julie Corey's reaction?

HILL: Well, I mean, the photos depict, you know, a pretty gruesome crime scene. From where I was sitting in the courtroom, it's kind of hard to see the jury's reaction. I didn't see much reaction from them or, frankly, from Julie Corey.

GRACE: You know what was interesting is she only cried or showed emotion when she was -- when they were discussing her miscarriage. Nothing, completely no emotion discussing what happened, what she did to the expectant mother.

Let's stop and remember American hero Army Sergeant Nathan Kennedy. Just 24. Claysville, Pennsylvania. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation Medal, from a military family. A star high school wrestler. Father Joseph, three sisters including twin Noel.

Nathan Kennedy, American hero.

And tonight happy birthday to Linda Menlo. This is her childhood photo. That's her favorite that she loves so much.

And happy birthday to kidney transplant survivor, fourth grader, Xavier.

Drew up next, everyone. I'll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END