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Manhunt on for Drug Dealers Who Sold to Philip Seymour Hoffman

Aired February 3, 2014 - 19:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, reports of a manhunt going on right now for the drug dealers who sold Philip Seymour Hoffman the heroin that`s believed to have killed the Oscar-winning actor. Brand-new shocking details in the sudden death of the 46-year-old, who was discovered yesterday on his bathroom floor, a needle sticking out of his left arm.

Tonight we`re learning at least 50 bags of heroin and 20 used syringes were found inside his Manhattan apartment.

Also tonight, sources say cops are looking for surveillance video from a nearby ATM machine after a witness claimed he saw the Oscar winner appearing very sweaty just hours before his body was discovered, taking out loads of money and talking to two guys who appeared to be drug dealers.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Oscar-winning actor dead in an apparent drug overdose.

PHILIP SEYMOUR HOFFMAN, ACTOR: When you`re an actor and somebody gives you a good job, you literally think you`re more high than you`ll ever be for the rest of your life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Close to 50 bags of heroin.

HOFFMAN: More than I can get my hands on. Yes. Yes, I liked it all.

If you say the "F" word, nothing actually happens.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a wonderful human being, but a terrible illness.

HOFFMAN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because of the way I talk.

Depends on the day. Depends on the day. Yes, it does, you know.

And you actually act well and go home and you can sleep well at night. Those are good days.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cops say they found nearly 50, 5-0, packets of what they believe is heroin labeled Ace of Spades. Plus, several empty packets labeled Ace of Hearts, both well-known street names for heroin. They also found at least 20 used syringes inside his apartment.

They also discovered five different kinds of prescription pills. An addiction treatment drug, an attention deficit disorder drug, anti-anxiety pills, along with muscle relaxers. Investigators say they also found other material that would indicate Hoffman was a heavy drug user who spent a lot of money buying heroin.

Detectives say family members and friends say the actor appeared high on Saturday, the day before he was discovered dead. Hoffman spoke openly about his battle with drug abuse. He told "60 Minutes" that it began when he was a teenager.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So this was drugs, or alcohol, or both?

HOFFMAN: It was all that stuff. Anything I could get my hands on. Yes. Yes, I liked it all. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And why did you decide to stop?

HOFFMAN: You get panicked. You get panicked. It was -- I was 22, and I got panicked for my life. It really was just that. I always think, God, you know, I have so much empathy for these young actors that are 19 and all of a sudden they`re beautiful and famous and rich. I`m like, oh, my God, I`d be dead.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And tonight, tragically, he is dead. Even though he has been clean and sober for 23 years before relapsing last year on prescription pills. We`ll show you one of his very last interviews in a second, at the Sundance Film Festival, and that happened just two weeks ago. Why some people say he appeared exhausted and disheveled.

Could Philip Seymour Hoffman have been saved? I want to hear what you have to say on that. Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

First straight out to Radar Online`s managing editor, Jen Hager. You`ve got new information. What are you learning tonight, Jen?

JEN HAGER, MANAGING EDITOR, RADAR ONLINE: Well, as you said, there are 50 bags that were found by the New York Police Department in Philip Seymour Hoffman`s apartment. And we`re now hearing that the NYPD is actively pursuing, trying to find the drug dealer or drug dealers that gave the heroin to Philip Seymour Hoffman. And this would include surveillance video footage. This would include cell-phone records of Philip Seymour Hoffman.

The NYPD will most likely be talking to his ex-girlfriend and the mother of his three children. They`re going to want to talk to people that were with him in the last 24 hours of his death. Because it doesn`t seem - - it seems very bizarre that he would go on such a heroin binge. You know, to have 50 bags seems abnormally excessive for someone, even that had a heroin addiction as he had. It just seems very -- something was obviously going on in his life that we don`t know about yet, that drove him to do this in such an extreme.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you`ve got to wonder: was anybody there, using drugs with him? And I want to get to -- in a second. Now, ironically, Philip Seymour Hoffman played a drug addict in the movie, "Before the Devil Knows You`re Dead." Here`s a clip.


HOFFMAN: Just put it in the bag! Put it in the bag!


HOFFMAN: Did you touch anything?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What a brilliant actor. Philip Seymour Hoffman was 23 years sober. OK, that`s a long time. It was just last spring that he fell off the wagon and relapsed on prescription pills. TMZ said that led to snorting heroin, so he checked himself into rehab last spring, but just for ten days. Not long enough, obviously.

Then he came out and he moved into this West Village apartment in Manhattan, which is just three blocks away from the multimillion-dollar home where his girlfriend, very longtime girlfriend lived with their three young children, a 10-year-old boy; two girls ages 7 and 5. First of all, my heart goes out to his family. What a tragedy. What precious children. My -- my heart really breaks for them tonight.

But Jon Leiberman, you have new information on why the actor was living separately, just three blocks away from this wonderful family that he had.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, so we have three new pieces of information, Jane.

No. 1, according to the "New York Post," he was living separately because his longtime girlfriend essentially kicked him out, because he had started to abuse heroin in such a bad way. That`s No. 1, according to the "New York Post."

My police sources confirm two things. No. 1, they`re looking to see if this heroin was laced with something called fentanyl, which has been lynched to about 100 deaths across the country over the past several months. It is a drug that, when mixed with heroin, is extremely, extremely deadly. That`s No. 1.

No. 2, the NYPD right now is going through its databases to see if this particular type of heroin, these street names that you mentioned, if there have been any arrests linked to those street names over the past several months. And if so, in what areas, so that they can try and track down the dealer.

No. 3, one other quick thing, Jane. There`s the possibility, too. Police are looking at if a delivery person made regular deliveries to Philip Hoffman, as well, because in Manhattan it is not uncommon for drug dealers to use a middle person as a delivery person to deliver heroin.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And as mentioned, there was a man claiming he saw Seymour Philip [SIC] Hoffman at an ATM, just hours before he died, and he looked sweaty. He was taking money out, allegedly, purportedly, giving it to two guys who looked like drug dealers. They were wearing messenger bags.

Just last week, there was a major drug bust in New York City. Eight million dollars of heroin seized in a raid. You are looking at these boxes filled with heroin. Experts saying heroin`s abundant and cheap right now and often laced with other dangerous drugs, as you heard Jon Leiberman refer to.

But let`s look at the pills police say Hoffman had in his home. Now some experts say one was an addiction treatment drug. He might have been trying to detox himself from heroin. Anna David, a recovering addict, CEO, Clearly, that didn`t work.

Now, some say, you know what? He should have just gotten a heroin alternative, maybe suboxone or methadone. But you know what? What I say is, there`s only one good answer: Check yourself into long-term rehab and go for a 12-step treatment program. You know, you look for an easier, softer way, but you can`t really find one.

ANNA DAVID, CEO, AFTERPARTYTREATMENT.COM: Well, absolutely, Jane. Ten days is not enough time to treat addiction. And when somebody is sober that long, the misconception is, oh, he`s sober, so you know, maybe the public thinks he just needs to check in briefly.

No, the saying is, the disease is doing push-ups when you`re sober. Those 22 years of sobriety, or 23 years, the disease is still active. And it`s going to pick up where it left off. For all of us. Not just for him.


DAVID: So absolutely more than ten days of treatment, and I think when somebody is -- you know, a celebrity has power, fame. They get to call the shots. They don`t surrender necessarily to what is best for them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You raise an important point. Because look, Hoffman has multiple -- he had multiple movies coming out this year. Just a few weeks ago he attended the famous Sundance Film Festival for his movie, "God`s Pocket." And people said he looked worn out, disheveled on the red carpet. You judge for yourself. Here`s one of his very last interviews. And then we`re going to talk to Lisa Bloom on the other side.


HOFFMAN: Every week -- every week, I told John -- like every week, every few days, I got to read another great actor. And play through a part of a story with them. And that was really pleasurable. It really -- that really was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I imagine that that kind of keeps your -- keeps the joy of acting alive.

HOFFMAN: Absolutely. The other actors...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty years in, right?

HOFFMAN: The other actors are the things that keep you coming back a lot of the times, yes.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, legal analyst,, people were whispering, "Oh, is he using again?" Looking at that interview, did he seem pasty and a little out of it? Should his handlers have said, "Hey, we think you`re using. We`re going to stage an intervention, we get you back into long-term rehab"?

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVVO.COM: You know, Philip Hoffman was my favorite actor, and I can`t even believe this news. If I saw his name was in a film, I went to see it. That`s all I needed to know. And I feel a personal loss, even though I never met him.

Sure, we hope that the people around him would have rallied around him. But it`s so hard to tell. It really is.

And also, I don`t think the war on drugs is the answer here. I don`t necessarily think looking for and prosecuting the people that gave him these horrible drugs is the answer. The answer is legalization, as hard as that is to talk about on a day like this. Bring people like him out of the shadows, into treatment. Get them out of the criminal aspect. This is a health problem; it`s not a criminal problem.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me tell you. I have a solution I want to talk about on the other side. And I have two words for you. Prescription pills.

But first, let`s go to Shannon, South Carolina. What do you have to say, Shannon?

CALLER: I just wanted to say that, for a man that`s been sober for 23 years, why in the world would he have 20 needles, if he was the only one that was in his room and he was the only one in the apartment at the time that everything happened? I mean, if he was the only person, then he would only have one needle, right?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, no. Not necessarily. If he was sort of holed up there, and over and over again.

But you know what? Let me ask an expert on the other side. I think you raise an important point: 20 seems excessive. I don`t know. I`m a recovering alcoholic with 18 years of sobriety, but I know nothing about heroin injection. We`re going to talk to an expert on the other side, a recovering addict, who`s on "Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew," in fact.

Stay right there. We`re just getting started. So sad.


HOFFMAN: Where I am now is, you know, a lot of actors don`t get the kind of opportunities I get already. So I`m pretty happy, yes.





HOFFMAN: What are you doing to me? I`m having a complete nervous breakdown. I may never recover. And I just pray that it turns my way.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: There he is, under the influence of alcohol in that famous scene for which he won the Oscar, "Capote." Ironically.

We have a very special guest. Shelley Sprague, certified addiction specialist, formerly staff on "Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew.

Our caller asked a very important question. Twenty used syringes, 50 packets of heroin. How can one person use 20 syringes? She said, you know, it sounds like maybe more people were involved. Somebody else said in my ear maybe it was a party. Looking at the evidence, have you shot up in the past, before you got sober? And how does it work with needles?

SHELLEY SPRAGUE, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Well, yes, I did use intravenous drugs. And also, you know, you want to use a new needle every time you shoot up, if it`s possible, because the needle is sharper; and it doesn`t give you as bad a puncture mark and it`s more comfortable.

And also, he probably just didn`t clean out his apartment. If he`s been shooting up eight, nine, ten times a day, it wouldn`t be uncommon that he would have that many needles and empty bags.

Of course, the tolerance goes up and up and up very, very quickly. And if you have the ability to have new needles every time, you would do that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you don`t necessarily think it`s a party? It could have been him alone, just shooting up after -- one needle after the next after the next?

SPRAGUE: Absolutely. Absolutely. You can get very, very strung out on heroin very quickly, be shooting up 20 times a day, if possible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Now, his death is especially shocking to me. I`m 18 years sober. I`m trying to make it to -- to April, 19 years. He was sober 23 years -- that`s a long time -- before relapsing last year on prescription pills. I think that`s a key. I`ll talk about it in a second.

Here he is talking about why he decided to get clean all those years ago.


HOFFMAN: You get panicked. You get panicked. It was a -- I was 22, and I got panicked in my life. It really was just that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Anna David, recovering addict,, I blame the prescription pills. OK? As a recovering alcoholic, with a lot of sober friends, some of them slip. I hear it all the time. Recovering addict is doing fine. And then for some reason -- depression, a backache, an injury, a fall -- starts taking prescription pills. And then, boom, they relapse; they slip.

If you`re an addict and somebody gives you a pill that makes you feel like you have a heroin-like high, which is what these -- a lot of these pills do, which is why they`re called XYZ heroin, it`s only a matter of time before you`re going to go to the real thing, heroin.

DAVID: Yes. I mean, Jane, I blame prescription pills. But I just mostly blame the disease of addiction, or alcoholism. They`re sort of interchangeable in my mind.

And the fact that this is a misunderstood disease, and that, you know, and that our doctors don`t understand it. Our society doesn`t understand it. And we addicts don`t understand it completely.

You know, you would think that somebody with two decades -- over two decades of sober time would, you know, have it licked, and that`s, I think, the point. That none of us ever have it licked. That there are no sure things, that you can never say -- or this person has success or this person...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I understand that, but I`m trying to understand why. Why so many people are going to heroin. I was reading something that -- from the CDC that says, if you`re on a heroin-like prescription pill you are likely to go to actual heroin. Because why? Sometimes it`s easier to get the heroin. Also, it`s not as regulated; it`s not a little pill. As you just heard Shelley say, you can shoot up over and over and over again. So it`s a progressive disease.

My question is, why are there prescription pills being administered in this country that mimic heroin? What is big pharma doing by putting out these pills? What good do they do? I don`t see it. I`m annoyed by it, because I have had friends who have gone out because they go to the doctor and they`ve got a backache. And they end up risking their lives, because they`re addicts who end up back on their drugs.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I just -- Lisa Bloom, we`ve got a crisis, and I think we`ve got to find out what is the problem with our culture that`s responsible? And I point to the pushing of these pills on society. These narcotic mood-altering pills are skyrocketing.

I can`t tell you how many friends I have. They`re depressed about their life. I`m like, go to a psychiatrist, it on the chair and find out why you`re sad. Don`t medicate it down. Don`t stuff it down, Lisa.

BLOOM: Right, absolutely. And more people die from prescription medication overdoses than from street drug overdoses. So you`re just substituting one drug for another. I think that`s an excellent point, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I want to go quickly to Erica, Michigan. Erica, Michigan, what do you have to say?

CALLER: I was just -- this hits to close to home. My father was an addict; my mother was an addict. My children are 17 and 19 years old. And I have an 11-year-old. I`ve got five children altogether. And I`m just wondering about all the hoopla about the police going after these drug dealers, but because of the celebrities. Why aren`t they looking for the drug dealers that killed four of their friends? The heroin overdoses that killed four 14- to 17-year-old kids in the trailer parks right next door in the apartment buildings that are down the street. I`m just...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you are right.

CALLER: It`s hitting close to home.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are right. As Lisa mentioned, more people are -- people are OD`ing all over this country. And we start talking about it when a famous person dies. And that is wrong, too.

Dr. Drew is talking about the life and death of Philip Seymour Hoffman tonight at 9 p.m. He`s going to offer a lot of insights based on his expertise as to why all those prescription pills inside his apartment. Was he trying to detox himself?

More on the other side.




HOFFMAN: A lot of hope is dangerous.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. There are about seven days left of filming that Philip Seymour Hoffman was supposed to do on the new "Hunger Games" movie, "Mockingjay." You`ve got to wonder how that project`s going to be affected. Ditto for "Happyish." It`s a Showtime series that he was starring in. These tragedies affect so many other people: families and also people who work on the shows associated with these stars. It`s a tragedy.

You know, look at Cory Monteith. He died, heroin-related death. And now "Glee" producers announced that "Glee" is going to end after the sixth season, I believe, is going to end. But obviously, that`s connected to the death of that very talented young actor, also from heroin. There he is. And I loved "Glee." I`m sorry to see it go.

Shelley Sprague, again, you used needles. We`re trying to find out how somebody can be 23 years sober, and then suddenly take prescription pills, end up snorting heroin, go into rehab, reportedly, after snorting rehab, according to TMZ anyway, and then come out and go to Sundance kind of wobbly, and then dead with 50 heroin packets and 20 used needles, including one in his arm. What are your thoughts about that trajectory?

SPRAGUE: Well, my thoughts are is that when you have addiction to this degree, that your brain gets so distorted, that you could become literally distorted to the degree that you would be shooting heroin with 23 years sober, and that`s the ability of this drug to distort perception, to such a degree, that this would make sense to a person who started on prescription drugs. It distorts the perception so incredibly that you could end up anywhere.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But do you agree that -- that prescription drugs is just a curse in the sense that so many people, it`s a -- it is the gateway drug. People are screaming about marijuana. That`s not the gateway drug. Gateway drugs are these prescription pills that feel like heroin.

SPRAGUE: I could not agree more. I think we need to go after these drug companies. I think we need to go after these doctors. These people are pushing drugs. They`re not informing their patients.

And people who have a history of addiction are becoming strung out on these pills. They don`t know what they`re up against. It`s changing the course of their lives forever, and we need to get on top of this as a country.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We do. And I`m not saying in this case, but in general, doctors are the new pushers. I`m sorry. Doctors, call me up and argue with me.

Let`s go to Sue, Florida. What do you have to say, Sue?

CALLER: I think that there`s a problem all over the country with these things. I`ve got a problem in my own home.

This man had everything going for him. Why he had to try to get out of reality is beyond me. It`s just too easily found, especially for people that have money. And it`s showing people that don`t have money how easy it is. I`ve got a daughter that...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you, Sue, Florida. I`m sorry you have this going on in your home. But it`s going on in homes all across America. It`s a wakeup call.

Meanwhile, we`ve got some breaking news to tell you about. We`ve been tracking an escaped fugitive who kidnapped a woman, took her after carjacking her to a gas station. She escaped, called 911. It`s been a nationwide manhunt. We`ve got on the phone, or with us actually at the scene, Emily Pritchard from WBNT, Indiana. Breaking news.

What happened? What just happened?

EMILY PRITCHARD, CORRESPONDENT, WBNT: We are just learning in the last half hour that LaPorte County Sheriff`s Department, they have arrested the suspect, 40-year-old Michael Elliott. Now, this is just developing within the last half hour, which means this manhunt is officially over.

Now, that arrest happened in nearby LaPorte County. But we do know that it`s been about 24 hours since Elliott escaped from the Michigan Correctional Facility. He made it about more than 100 miles south to Elkhart County, where he stopped at a gas station in Middlebury, Indiana. That`s where his hostage got away and managed to save herself.

The hostage`s vehicle and -- which is also the getaway car, landed here. He abandoned that car here. And you can see the snow tire tracks here behind me. The person that lives in this home actually said they looked out their front window and realized that the car sitting in their front yard was actually the one police were looking for.

Now, police did confirm with the license plate that it was indeed the suspect`s vehicle. They searched the area. It was locked down for a number of hours. But of course, they never found Elliott. But we have just confirmed in the last...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where did they find him?

PRITCHARD: In the neighboring county. They found him in LaPorte County is where they...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But where? Was he hiding under a snow bank? Was he in a car? Because OK, he carjacks this woman, right?

PRITCHARD: We`re working on that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He carjacks this woman, right, and takes her to a gas station, because they run out of gas. She says she has to go to the bathroom. She`s brilliant. She gets to the bathroom. She picks up her cell phone and calls 911. He`s banging on the door, "Come out." She`s like, "Just a second. Just a second." Meanwhile she`s whispering to cops, "This guy carjacked me."

Listen to the 911 call. And this woman is my hero.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When and where did he pick you up?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He forced his way into my vehicle in Ionia, Michigan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does he have a gun or weapons. He escaped -- he was in prison for murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A box cutter and a hammer.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And a box cutter.





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our suspect Michael Dunn made a comment for them to turn the music down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard what sounded to be like some really weak gunshots.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They just heard gunshots at the gas station.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Opened fire hitting Jordan more than once.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have shots fired in the parking lot. The person firing has left.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And then it stopped for a second and you heard pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pleaded not guilty to murder and attempted murder.

MICHAEL DUNN, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF JORDAN DAVIS: I thought he had a shotgun and he`s going to shoot (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and he opens his door.

RON DAVIS, FATHER OF JORDAN DAVIS: My son has never owned a gun. I have never owned a gun.

DUNN: I was in fear for my life.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, day one of the explosive highly-anticipated new Florida case, some are calling the next George Zimmerman trial. 47- year-old Michael Dunn sprayed an SUV with bullets after arguing with four teenaged boys inside the red SUV about their loud music.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: 17-year-old Jordan Davis was shot twice and killed. The shooter insists he shot the teenager in self-defense. Dunn claims he saw a gun inside the SUV and heard them threaten him.

Last week I talked to the teenage victim`s father who called his son`s killer a liar.


DAVIS: Nobody harmed a hair -- a hair on his head, yet he wants to lie to the viewers and lie to the public and say that he felt threatened. And then you`re going to call them thugs. Just because of their music, you`re going to call them thugs; just because of their music, you`re going to call them a thug.

You know, you want to violate their civil rights to be Americans, and call them thugs just because of the type of music they`re listening to. You have to pay for that, and you will pay for that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: No gun was ever found in the teenager`s car. Jury selection began today. Will jurors believe the suspect feared for his life and was justified in shooting according to Florida`s infamous Stand Your Ground law? Remember where we heard that before.

This suspect certainly didn`t help his case. He left the scene, went to a hotel and ordered pizza, instead of calling 911. Not to mention sending letters from jail filled with racist comments.

What`s your take on this case? Give me a holler, 1-877-JVM-SAYS.

In a disturbing jailhouse letter, the defendant, Michael Dunn wrote this, quote, "My fear is that if I get one black on my jury it will be a mistrial as I am convinced they will be racially biased," end quote.

Areva Martin, attorney, how can vile comments like that affect jury selection, which, by the way, began today? This is a racially charged case. How do they handle jury selection when you`ve got the defendant saying things like that?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Well, I think, Jane, this is just so outrageous that this man would claim African-Americans are incapable of being objective, were incapable of listening to evidence and ruling on what the judge, you know, provides as instructions. It`s an outrageous comment. I think what we`re seeing in this case is an outrageous attempt to try to justify cold-blooded murder.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well Adam Swickle, criminal defense attorney, I agree he has said a lot of racist things. That`s just one of them. We`re going to read more in a second. And you know, he comes off as this guy, when I watched the entire police interrogation tape, he walks in as if, "I`m the good guy, by default, they`re the bad guys by default. I`m going to tell you that I was scared and I`m going to waltz right out of here, even though there was no gun in the teenager`s vehicle." No -- stick because he said either it was a gun -- a barrel of a gun or a stick -- no nothing.

ADAM SWICKLE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I can tell you this, Jane, this case is going to hinder upon three factors. The first one started today and that`s jury selection. You made a very, very interesting point. How are we going to get a fair injury with these kinds of comments and this kind of information out there?

I believe you can get a fair jury. And any lawyer worth his salt understands that you win and you lose your case in jury selection. All the defense has to do is find a certain number of people in that particular county who are willing to listen to the evidence and would believe that a person has a right to defend themselves with the use of deadly force, so long as they reasonably believe they needed to do that to protect themselves.

The second most important issue --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I can`t just -- I have to stop you there. Rolonda Watts, host, "Sundays with Rolonda". The idea you seem to be suggesting that if a middle-aged white man see a group of teenagers who happen to be African-American, and he gets scared, that justifies them shooting them. Are you kidding me?

SWICKLE: No, not at all. Not at all. That isn`t anything what I`m saying. That`s not true.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, wait. They didn`t have a gun. They didn`t have stick. Rolonda, I want to get your thoughts on that.

SWICKLE: They did not have a gun that was found -- Jane.


SWICKLE: There was nothing that was found -- Jane.

WATTS: Listen --

SWICKLE: There was nothing that was found. It doesn`t mean that there wasn`t anything there.


WATTS: Listen. There was nothing. There was no evidence. He`s going to have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was in danger.

SWICKLE: That`s wrong.

WATTS: There is no danger.

SWICKLE: That is absolutely wrong. He must prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that --


WATTS: If he was so scared -- no, no --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time.

WATTS: -- if he was so afraid --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time.

WATTS: -- if he`s got plain fear, why would he approach the car, not once, but twice? If he`s so afraid, why didn`t he drive away? If he`s so afraid why did he shoot at the car four times and when the car is flying off, he shoots four more times at the back of the car, killing a 17-year- old child? Where was the fear? Can you explain that to me?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. One at a time -- one at a time.

You respond and then we`ll give the rest of the panel a chance to speak.

SWICKLE: Let me respond very briefly. All the jury has to believe is that there was something in that car that could have made him believed that his life was in danger. It doesn`t have to be a gun. It doesn`t have to be anything other than what he perceived it.


SWICKLE: And this car took off for 90 seconds at least -- hold on.


LEIBERMAN: But what`s going to be key, Jane --

SWICKLE: We know the car was gone for 90 seconds, that is plenty of time for a weapon to be discarded.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. You`ve had your say -- Adam. Let`s go -- let`s go to Jon Leiberman and then I want to go to Lisa Bloom.

LEIBERMAN: A couple of things Jane. First of all, prosecutors are so confident that Angela Corey, the actual state`s attorney, the state prosecutor is trying this herself. That`s number one.

But what`s going to be important in this case --

SWICKLE: That`s for political reasons.

LEIBERMAN: -- what`s going to be important in this case is a few different things. Number one, there are a number of witnesses. You have the survivors in the victim`s vehicle. They are going to testify. That will be significant. Also, Dunn`s own girlfriend has said in police interviews that he never mentioned to her anything about seeing a gun, or anything about seeing a weapon. That is going to be big to the prosecutors as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go back to Areva Martin to give her the last word here because you never really got a chance to speak.

MARTIN: I think what`s important about this case is everyone keeps comparing it to George Zimmerman. But one of the big differences in this case, there`s no altercation, Jane. There`s no scuffle. There`s no touching of Jordan to Mr. Dunn. So to say that he was in fear is going to be absolutely unbelieved by this jury. This man is being convicted.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m sorry to wrap it up, but we`re on to another extraordinarily controversial case on the other side.

Woody Allen`s adopted daughter publicly saying the legendary director molested her. It`s a mind-blowing case. Stay right there.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Dylan told her mother, Allen had allegedly touched her inappropriately. Allen has consistently denied the claims and was never charged. But the allegations tainted his image for two decades

Now Dylan breaking her silence and admonishing some of Hollywood`s most celebrated by name, who are in her words, "turning a blind eye" by continuing to work with Allen.





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- tainted his image for two decades.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I was 7 years old, Woody Allen took me by the hand and led me into a dim closet-like attic.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Consistently denied the claims and was never charged.

WOODY ALLEN, DIRECTOR: For years I played the romantic lead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The accuser is his adopted daughter, Dylan Farrow who is speaking publicly for the first time.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, everyone is asking explosive questions, is Woody Allen, one of the most famous directors of all-time, a pedophile? Woody Allen furiously denying the allegations calling them untrue and disgraceful, and he`s blaming his ex, actress Mia Farrow, for allegedly coaching their adopted daughter Dylan for saying these horrors are true.

But Dylan Farrow is all grown-up now and she is making her case in an open letter published by "The New York Times".


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I was 7 years old, Woody Allen took me by the hand and led me into dim, closet-like attic on the second floor of our house. He told me to lay on my stomach and play with my brother`s electric train set. Then he sexually assaulted me. He talked to me while he did it, whispering that I was a good girl, that this was our secret. Promising that we`d go to Paris, and I`d be a star in his movies.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Woody Allen has been haunted by these claims of child sex abuse ever since he went public with this scandalous affair he was having with his then-girlfriend Mia Farrow`s other adopted daughter, Sun Yi. Mia said she discovered the relationship between her 55-year-old lover, Woody, and her about 19-year-old daughter Sun Yi when she found naked photos of Sun Yi. That was more than 20 years ago. Ok, the first time allegations that Woody Allen molested his adopted daughter Dylan came out during his vicious custody battle with Mia. These claims have been a dark cloud following Woody Allen ever since.


ALLEN: We are really doing our best to try and work out everything.


ALLEN: I`m not allowed to say.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you feel better after the session today?

ALLEN: They asked me if I would not speak about it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Straight out to the "Lion`s Den". Lisa Bloom, legal analyst,, this is the first time that Dylan, seen here in a Twitter photo, is talking -- we`re going to see it as we talk -- first time she`s talking publicly about the alleged sexual abuse. There she is now 28 years old. She said this happened when she was seven years old. Is her claim believable?

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVO.COM: I think it`s highly believable. I posted on my blog on today a piece about this.

Number one, she`s not asking for anything. She hasn`t written a book. She hasn`t written a movie. She`s not suing him. Number two, she came forward when she was seven years old with this claim and she`s maintained it ever since.

And the attorney for Woody Allen who made a statement yesterday that said that she was fantasizing potentially she was seven years old, I`ve got a message for you, seven-year-olds do not fantasize about sex with their 50-something fathers. In fact, seven-year-olds want nothing to do with sex. They find sex disgusting. So I`m tired of this "blame the victim" tactic.


BLOOM: I`m tired of the "blame the mom" tactic. If he wants to deny, so be it. But don`t go after those two.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, Adam Swickle, criminal defense attorney. He got together with his girlfriend`s adopted daughter. Creepy, ok? Creepy. But that could make him kind of a dirty old man but not necessarily a pedophile, because she was approximately 19. She wasn`t a minor. She wasn`t his adopted child. Is it a leap from going to that to, oh, my gosh, he molested his own adopted daughter, which if the statute of limitations hadn`t passed and if it were actually true would be a crime? We don`t know if it`s true.

SWICKLE: It absolutely would be a crime. I think we can all agree upon this. While I agree with some of the comments that were just spoken about, the one thing a seven-year-old can be taken care of -- or one thing a seven-year-old can influenced is things that have happened to them.

This is something that needs to be put to rest at some point in time. It was decades ago, they found no evidence against him. It was during a heated divorce. They never charged him. And he was never convicted. At some point in time life must move on. We can`t --

BLOOM: Rich guys never are convicted of these things.

LEIBERMAN: I want to --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on, hold on. We obviously agree to disagree on this. We`re going to take a break. But first, Woody Allen put his marriage with Sun Yi, Mia Farrow`s adopted daughter, on display in the documentary "Wild Man Blues" trying to show, as crazy as it sounds, they have a normal relationship.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Check it out. And then we`ll have more on the other side.

ALLEN: First going out, you know, it was the height of all that in the newspapers at the time. And we just never allowed our pictures to be taken together. So if we were on the street and there was the paparazzi, who are just, you know.

SUN YI: You would have to take a walk on the terrace.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you going to be sad to go home. Are you going to miss her?

SUN YI: No, no. I mean, I like this trip, a lot. It`s been fun. We`ve been on the go constantly.





ALLEN: Six months -- are you kidding? Six months you`re going to go --

MARIEL HEMINGWAY, ACTRESS: We`ve come this far. What`s six months if we still love each other?

ALLEN: Don`t be so mature, ok? I mean six months is a long time.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, Woody Allen`s famous movie "Manhattan" made in the 70s which is about a middle-aged guy having an affair with a teenage girl, Rolonda Watts. Does that make you wonder?


WATTS: Listen Jane, the devil is always in doubt. And when people throw up things like the Mia Farrow daughter and these type of movies, it makes people wonder.

But Dylan is also bringing up a point that she`s saying that victims are victimized twice, and that`s why she`s still pushing this story. I think what makes the story so new is the graphic and horrific details that she outlines that makes you wonder if it could be true. We`ll never know that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s the thing, Lisa Bloom.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I just got to jump to Lisa Bloom because you -- you seem very, very strong about this, but the fact is we`ll never know what happened behind closed doors.

BLOOM: No, that`s right. What I don`t like is stereotypes about people who make claims about sexual abuse. I`m saying she`s credible. I`m not saying I know to a certainty that is it`s true. And of course, in that movie Mariel Hemingway played an underage girl. That would have been an illegal relationship. She was 17 years old. I mean he has been --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we end with that -- on the other side, I`m attacking Joe Namath.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joe Namath really screwed up at the Super Bowl. I`m talking about his disgusting fur coat. Think about it. Think about how many animals had to die so he could make that stupid grab for attention? Look at me.

How many animals suffered and died to make that coat. You know what - - I don`t know what rock you crawled out because you haven`t been around for decades; crawl back under that rock and go away, Joe Namath.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy Grace next.