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Defendant Dunn Testifies in "Loud Music" Murder Trial

Aired February 11, 2014 - 11:00   ET


MICHAEL DUNN, MURDER SUSPECT: Yes. It would be one of those Saturday things. We would go flying and go shoot trap.

CORY STROLLA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. So you understand how shotguns work?

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA:You understand how they fire?

DUNN: Absolutely.

STROLLA:You understand how projectiles come out of a shotgun?

DUNN: Very much so.

STROLLA:Now, at this point, he reaches down and slams up what you think you see is a shotgun. Is that correct?

DUNN: Yes, sir.

STROLLA:Do you reach for your firearm?

DUNN: No, I do not.

STROLLA:Do you say anything to him, you're dead or anything like that?

DUNN: No. He put -- he slammed something against the door and said --


-- and I asked him, Are you talking about me?

And he -- I didn't know what it was at first.


He's showing me a gun and he's threatening me.

STROLLA:OK, and again, you said it was only a few inches of that barrel?

DUNN: Yeah, I'm estimating four. STROLLA:And, again, at that point, did you grab your firearm?

DUNN: I did not.

STROLLA:OK. Did you have any words back in terms of retaliation?

DUNN: No. I was in fear for my life and I was probably stunned.

STROLLA:OK. At that point, how did that make you feel? Had anyone ever pointed a gun at you or even said that?

DUNN: I had never been threatened, let alone threatened with a firearm before, not threatened with death.

STROLLA:At this point, in terms of your mental processes, could you even imagine it would escalate to that point over asking someone to lower their radio?

DUNN: I was incredulous.

STROLLA:Excuse me for my ignorance. What does incredulous mean?

DUNN: I couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing.

STROLLA:OK. And were you frozen in that seat?

DUNN: I was.

STROLLA: OK. And where was Ms. Rouer, your fiancee?

DUNN: She was in the store.

STROLLA: OK. And from the back window of that SUV to you, would that be a diagonal straight line?

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA: And then from you to the front of that gate entrance, would that be a diagonal straight line?

DUNN: Yes. We were in line.

STROLLA: So, if somebody had fired a shotgun from that angle, anybody coming out could be hit?

DUNN: That's correct.

STROLLA: And that would include your fiancee?

DUNN: Right.

STROLLA:OK. Did you even have time to look back to see if Ms. Rouer was coming out?

DUNN: I did not.

STROLLA:OK. Now, you don't pull your weapon at this point. You're sitting there. What happens now?

DUNN: Well, I didn't react to this. I'm just like processing what's going on.

And this young man in the back seat, the back passenger seat, opens his door, like he cracked it. He just popped it open.

STROLLA: Could you hear the door unhinge?

DUNN: Yes, and I saw it move just a little bit.

STROLLA: OK. And at that point, because you've already said you were in fear of your life when he said you're --


DUNN: I was.

STROLLA: Were you still in fear for your life?

DUNN: I became even more fearful at that point.

STROLLA: OK. At that point, what did you believe was about to happen to you?

DUNN: I thought I was going to be killed.

STROLLA: Did you even think he might be able to get a shot off?

DUNN: Yes. Yes, I did. But I still didn't go for my gun at that time.

STROLLA: OK. Why is that? Why did you not reach for your gun?

DUNN: I couldn't tell you.

Hoping that the situation was gonna de-escalate, I was in fear for my life, but I wasn't to the point where I was ready to employ deadly force.

STROLLA:OK. And were you even thinking about it at that point?

DUNN: Not really. I was just going, oh, my god. Where is all this hostility coming from?

STROLLA: And at that point, is Miss Rouer even in your view sight yet?


STROLLA: Did you know she could be standing outside your car?

DUNN: She could be, but my focus is to the left, and she could be standing right there.


DUNN: And, of course, you know, a lot of things are going through my mind. It is not just my life. It is hers, too.

STROLLA: Let me ask you this. At any time, did any of the people in the SUV try to calm that individual down?

DUNN: No. When I was looking at the person in the rear passenger, I could see the rear driver's side, too, and while he wasn't saying anything, it was still that -- I wouldn't say scowl, but you know an angry expression.

STROLLA: And he was kind of still watching his friend?

DUNN: Oh, absolutely. He was like right there.

STROLLA: Did anybody in the front seat or at any time did that back window ever come up or go up halfway or an inch or anything like that.

DUNN: No, it did not.

STROLLA: OK. And again, you don't know who else is in that vehicle other than somebody working the radio, I guess?

DUNN: Yeah. I assume there is somebody in the front.

STROLLA: And then the two guys in the back?

DUNN: Correct.

STROLLA: And then the one guy threatening you in the back?

DUNN: Correct.

STROLLA: OK. So, now, you say you see him move and you hear the door unpop.

DUNN: Right.

STROLLA: Do you see the door open?

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA: OK. At this point, are you still frozen in fear?

DUNN: I am.

STROLLA: OK. What changes? What is that variable?

DUNN: After the --


DUNN: -- and this young man gets out and as his head clears the window frame -


STROLLA: Do you see that man try to get rid of what you thought was a shotgun that he was holding against that door?

DUNN: Well, when the door --


STROLLA: You didn't see his body moving, trying to get rid of it and then get out?

DUNN: No. I just him get out and the shotgun's not sticking up anymore.

STROLLA: Now, in your mind, did you think he was going to get out to yell at you some more?

DUNN: No, this is the point where my death is imminent. He is coming to kill me. He's coming to beat me. I am not real sure what his intentions were.

Actually, he made it very clear what his intentions were.

STROLLA: But, again, you only know what you're being told and what you see.

DUNN: Yes, and not having any doubts at all between his threats and his actions that that is a gun in the window.

STROLLA: OK. And, again, you see him now come out over the door frame. Is that correct?

DUNN: I saw his head over the window frame as he stepped out. And t was at that point --


STROLLA: Did anybody ever -- or let me ask you this. Have you ever been in any remote type of position like that?

DUNN: Never.

STROLLA: Do you have any type of law enforcement or military training to deal with that?

DUNN: No, I do not.

STROLLA: In your wildest dreams, could you fathom being in that position over a common courtesy?


STROLLA: Now, at this point, are you looking for Miss Rouer? Are you trying to figure out where she is? What's going through --


DUNN: What went through my mind is that this was a clear and present danger and I said -- (AUDIO BREAK)

STROLLA:-- looking at him or were you now moving to (inaudible)?

DUNN: I said that as I was retrieving my pistol.

STROLLA:OK. And where was your pistol?

DUNN: It was in my glove box.

STROLLA: Where do you routinely keep that pistol?

DUNN: In my glove box.

STROLLA:OK. Is that the same pistol we saw here today?

DUNN: Yes, it is.

STROLLA: Does that pistol fit all the way down deep into that holster?

DUNN: Yes, it does. That's the actual holster you would use for concealed carry.

STROLLA: And if you are concealed carrying it, it is not open carry like you see in the Wild West where the cowboys could grab their trigger and pull?

DUNN: Right. That's inside the waistband holster.

STROLLA: Right. And does that trigger guard -- that holster cover that trigger guard?

DUNN: Yes, it does. You can see how it is molded over it. Like when the gun fits in, it completely covers the trigger guard.

STROLLA: When did you have that or when did you purchase that firearm?

DUNN: In the early '90s, like '90, '91.

STROLLA: And would you take that to go target practicing?

DUNN: Yes, I would.

STROLLA:OK. And that's the paper target get you see in shooting ranges?

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA:OK. Any type of modifications or customization to that gun?

DUNN: The only thing I did was I took the walnut grips off and I put the Pachmayr grips. Those are the black grips. They're just nonslip.

STROLLA: The walnut is kind of a smooth finish.

DUNN: Exactly. STROLLA: It could slip out.

DUNN: Exactly.

STROLLA: And if you are shooting, even at target, the gun --

DUNN: I think the Pachmayr grips look better and they're probably safer.

STROLLA: And, again, have you ever had to take that out other than to shoot paper targets at a range?

DUNN: I've never, ever had to resort to any kind of firearm, let alone that pistol.

STROLLA: OK. Now, can you fire that gun through the holster?

DUNN: No, you cannot. The trigger is completely blocked.

STROLLA: OK. How many rounds does that gun hold?

DUNN: Fifteen in the magazine.

STROLLA: OK. And you heard Ms. Pagan (ph) testify that you can carry one chambered. Is that correct?

DUNN: You could. I don't do that.

STROLLA: Have you ever carried your firearms either in your house, your car, or on your person what I would call live, meaning there is a live round in the chamber?

DUNN: No, I don't believe in that. I think that it's a safety issue.

STROLLA: OK. And, again, have you had guns since you had a family?

DUNN: Yeah. With young kids in the house, you know, especially a revolver, a kid is strong enough to pull the trigger and snap it. And a revolver is just not safe.

The same thing can be said for a double-action pistol. If you have a round in the chamber, they are strong enough to pull the trigger, but they are not strong enough to work the slide, at least not enough, not until they are old enough where they know better.

STROLLA:OK. And, again, there was some mention about your son, Chris Dunn.

OK. You and Phyllis Molinaro separated when he was quite young?

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA: Did Ms. Molinaro go on to get remarried to another gentleman?

DUNN: She did.

STROLLA: Did she have kids with that gentleman?

DUNN: Yes, she had a daughter.

STROLLA: Did you go on to get remarried to another woman?

DUNN: I did.

STROLLA: Did you have kids with that woman?

DUNN: Yes, I have two daughters.

STROLLA: OK. And is that why -- part of your rational that you don't carry it loaded?

DUNN: Right. Because of my young daughters.


DUNN: That pistol is actually older than they are.

STROLLA: OK. OK, with that being said, when you reached over, tell the jury what you did. Was your glove box locked? What's going on (inaudible)?

DUNN: My glove box isn't locked, but the way my seat is kind of tilted back, I had to lean forward once to pop the glove box -


DUNN: And then bounce back and lean forward again to grab the pistol, like leaning forward a little bit farther.

STROLLA: OK. And then when you grab it, is it still in the holster?

DUNN: Yeah. I grabbed the whole thing.

STROLLA: Do you unholster it?

DUNN: I grabbed the whole thing and I threw the holster down at my feet in the car.

STROLLA: And is this a very quick action that you are doing?

DUNN: Absolutely. I'm in a panic.

STROLLA: And that's what I was going to ask you. At that point, do you also then rack the gun or cock the gun?

DUNN: Yeah, the -- to recreate it, I grab the gun and stripped off the holster and I put the pistol up into the window and cocked it and then turned to my left.

STROLLA: OK. At that point when you turned to your left, are you trying to acquire a target or anything like that?

DUNN: I'm just pointing it at the direction of my attacker at that point.

STROLLA: OK. And that's the last place you saw this person --


-- with the firearm or deadly weapon in his hand?

DUNN: Yes. I mean, everything he said and did cemented the fact that whatever he threw up against -- that looked like a gun was a gun.

STROLLA: OK. And at that point, were you shooting only to defend yourself?

DUNN: Yes, I was.

STROLLA: Did you have any malice intent outside of what you have already testified to and why you grabbed your pistol?

DUNN: No, I do not.

STROLLA: Had you ever met anybody in this red SUV before?

DUNN: No, I have not.

STROLLA: Obviously, you have learned their names now. Have you ever had any contact with them, their families, anything at all?


STROLLA: OK. Would they have even known who you are?

DUNN: Unlikely.

STROLLA: OK. And, again, you said you hadn't even lived in Jacksonville since the mid-'90s?

DUNN: Correct.

STROLLA: Now, how fast -- I know we kind of recreated and walked you through it, but if you could, could you show the jury exactly what you did when you heard, "It's going down now?"

DUNN: Well, if we say over here is my glove box, I'm looking out the window and I said, you --


STROLLA: And do you even recall how many times you shot?

DUNN: I do not.

STROLLA: You obviously heard the video.

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA: OK. You got to see the video? DUNN: Yes. It was very impressive.

STROLLA: And how did that make you feel watching it?

DUNN: It put me back in the moment.

STROLLA: How did that make you feel?

DUNN: Scared.

STROLLA:OK. About as scared as you were that day?

DUNN: Not even a little bit, but it brought some of it back.

STROLLA: OK. And, again, have you ever been put in that position before in your life?


STROLLA: Do you have any type of training to deal with being put in that position?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, that's asked and answered.

JUDGE: Sustained.

STROLLA: Now, at that point, we hear the gun go off three times. You heard the boom, boom, boom or bang, bang, whatever, however you want to describe it.

Is that -- you could hear it yourself?

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA:OK. At any point, do you then move the gun to find anybody else? Are you now searching for people?

DUNN: No. How can I describe this? I had what's called tunnel vision. My hearing kind of dimmed.

My senses just kind of -- everything faded in the background. And it was focused on the target and pulling the trigger.

STROLLA: Was that target being the red door?

DUNN: Just the door.

STROLLA: Why were you shooting at the door?

DUNN: Well, that's where the threat was coming from. That was the last place I saw my attacker, and that was about as far back as I could get in my position.

STROLLA: OK, and again, were you shooting directly to your left or would that be at the passenger door? DUNN: That would have been at the front passenger. I was angled behind me two handed. I have a damaged right finger. I really can't shoot a gun, because I have to use this as the trigger finger. I would only be holding it with two fingers. So I have to hold it two handed for the recoil.

STROLLA: OK. Judge, if I may, can I have him sent down so the jury can actually see his finger?

JUDGE: Sure.

STROLLA: Mr. Dunn, if you wouldn't mind stepping down. Now when did this injury happen to your finger?

DUNN: 2004.

STROLLA: OK, and is obviously.

DUNN: (inaudible)

STROLLA: Could you put your whole hand down so they can compare that finger to the others? I'm just gonna have -- sorry. If you could just slide down. I hate to do that to you, Mr. Dunn.

And could you tell the jury, how did that injury occur?

DUNN: Just a home improvement project gone awry.

STROLLA: Was that with your father?

DUNN: Yes, it was.

STROLLA: Did he feel kind of bad?

DUNN: He feels terrible.

STROLLA: OK, and because of that, you said you have to hold it with two hands.

DUNN: Right, because I would otherwise just be holding the grip with two fingers and that's not enough.

STROLLA: OK, and would it almost injure you trying to fire the gun in that --?

DUNN: I think it would jump out of my hand. I've never tried it. Just out of a --

STROLLA: Safety issue?

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA: OK. Now, with that being said, is it even possible when you're firing back at that back passenger door, is it even possible, did you duck your head and aim those crosshairs or sights?

DUNN: I didn't aim. I pointed.

STROLLA: Did you even have time to try to acquire a siting and get the -- ?

DUNN: No. My hands were rested on my windowsill.

STROLLA: And why did you fire so quickly? What was still going through your mind at that moment if anything at all?

DUNN: I was fighting for my life.

STROLLA: OK. At that point, you felt your life was still in danger?

DUNN: Oh, absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE1: I object to leading.

JUDGE: Sustained.

STROLLA: How did you feel in terms of your mental abilities of being in fear?

DUNN: I was still fighting for my life. I was still in fear for my life.

STROLLA: Did anybody yell out, "No, no, we're just kids! No, it's OK," any type of comments like that?

DUNN: No, nothing.

STROLLA: Anything to de-escalate the threats towards you?

DUNN: Nothing at all.

STROLLA: And at that point, at some time, do you now realize that the SUV is gone?

DUNN: Yes. As I mentioned, I kind of was in a fixed position with the tunnel vision. I didn't realize the SUV was moving at first. You'll see in photos that there are three holes in the front passenger. I was still aiming at the rear passenger and it didn't register that the car was backing up.

STROLLA: OK. And at some point, you realize now there is no more red door in front of your face?

DUNN: I registered movement and stopped, but I'd already put three additional shots into the front passenger.

STROLLA: OK. And again, was that with any malice and intent for anybody in the vehicle other than the gentleman who threatened your life with a firearm?

DUNN: No, it was just a byproduct of the tunnel vision.

STROLLA: OK. DUNN: And the panic.

STROLLA: Did you stop once you realized that SUV is now no longer there?

DUNN: Yes, I did.

STROLLA: And at that point, did you look up?

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA: And where was the SUV when you looked up?

DUNN: They had backed up directly behind me.

STROLLA: OK, so at that point, if you're facing this way, aiming out your door, your door is closed?

DUNN: My door is closed. My window is down.

STROLLA: OK. Did you ever try to open the door and get out of the vehicle and chase them down?

DUNN: Not chase them down, but I did open my door.

STROLLA: Tell the jury, why did you open your door with the SUV behind you?

DUNN: Well, they had a shot at the back of my head, a very easy one.

STROLLA: And again, did you ever see anybody throw the shotgun or the deadly weapon away?


STROLLA: And at that point, if they have a shotgun, what kind of sight do they have to use?

DUNN: Right. This is -- this is where Rhonda starts coming into my mind because I know she's heard the shots. I know Rhonda. It wasn't just my life I was worried about now.

STROLLA: Was that -- in terms of your mental state, how did you still feel at that point in terms of the threat of imminent danger?

DUNN: Right, I mean, it's now double, because it is not just me we are talking about.

STROLLA: All right. And at some point now, do you see that SUV actually drive towards a different direction or try to drive away?

DUNN: It did. And this is where the -- now they're back in line with it. They fire on me, they will hit the front door and this is where Rhonda comes out.

STROLLA: OK, and again, with your gun, how many bullets can it fire at a time?

DUNN: One.

STROLLA: And that goes in one direction?

DUNN: Yes, sir.

STROLLA: OK. With your experience and training, what does a shotgun blast do?

DUNN: It has a very nice spread.

STROLLA: And the further away you get, the bigger that spread gets?

DUNN: The bigger the spread.

STROLLA: OK. That's kind of why you could shoot clays at 50 yards plus and still hit it?

DUNN: And hit it, yes.

STROLLA: Do you fire additional rounds into the back of the truck?

DUNN: I did. In my panicked state of mind, I thought I fired once, but I've seen the photographic evidence. And I shot three times.

STROLLA: OK. What was your purpose of firing towards the back of that vehicle?

DUNN: I was worried about the blind firing situation where they would, you know, shoot over their heads or whatever and hit me or hit me and Rhonda.

STROLLA: Was the back passenger window still down?

DUNN: Yes, it was.

STROLLA: Could a gun barrel be pointed out there?

DUNN: Absolutely. It was the right -- it was at a 45.

STROLLA: By 45, you mean the angle?

DUNN: Yes, sir.

STROLLA: Not the firearm.

DUNN: Yes, I meant the angle.

STROLLA: OK. And at that point, what was going through your mind in terms of fear? Were you still in imminent fear?

DUNN: Absolutely.

STROLLA: OK. And what was your purpose of shooting into that vehicle at that angle? DUNN: To keep their heads down, to keep them from shooting blindly.

STROLLA: OK. And again, at this point now, you know there is at least --

DUNN: Four.

STROLLA: And do you know what they have in that car?

DUNN: No. I know there is at least one weapon. Now, I've got, you know, three, four potential shooters.

STROLLA: And again, how many are you?

DUNN: One.

STROLLA: At that point, let me ask you this. After you fire the round from the back to keep their heads down, do you unload your clip? It is a common term; you just keep shooting until everything is gone.

DUNN: No, I did not.

STROLLA: OK. Why did you stop firing and at what point did you stop firing.

DUNN: I stopped firing when it appeared that the threat was over.

STROLLA: OK. And they were far enough away where they couldn't shoot back?

DUNN: They were far enough away where they couldn't shoot back effectively, and I certainly couldn't aim effectively.

STROLLA: OK. Were you even trying to continue to shoot as they were driving away?


STROLLA: OK. At that point, what was your next focus on immediately after that?

DUNN: Getting Rhonda and myself to safety.

STROLLA: OK. Did you try to run into the store?


STROLLA: When you turned around, who was standing there?

DUNN: Rhonda.

STROLLA: OK. And what did you say to her?

DUNN: I said, "Get in the car. We've got to go."

STROLLA: And what did she do? DUNN: She got in the car.

STROLLA: OK. And at that point, did you know where that red SUV went?

DUNN: No. I lost sight of the red SUV and I thought they turned on to that main road, whatever goes north there, I think. I really wasn't that familiar with the way the parking lot works, but when they turned the corner and took off, I thought they were on south side.

STROLLA: And at that point, did you have any type of mental thought of retaliation or them coming back?

DUNN: Yes. I was worried about them coming back and maybe possibly they had friends in the area doing retaliation.

STROLLA: OK. And did you -- was it a busy gas station with a lot of people there?

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA: Did you look around and start asking people, are you friendly, are you not friendly?

DUNN: No, no, no, just got out.

STROLLA: OK. At that point, what is still your mental state of you being in fear of that situation?

DUNN: I'm still in a panic. I'm still in -- you know, we're in a very dangerous spot. I mean, I just got my life threatened because I asked them to turn the music down. Now, I shot at them. So now what are they going to do?

STROLLA: And again, it is your belief they still have weapons in that vehicle?

DUNN: Absolutely.

STROLLA: OK. And at that point, emotionally, physically, do you notice any differences about your body physically?

DUNN: I'm shaking. I mean, I'm quivering like a leaf.

STROLLA: OK. Had you ever experienced those feelings before?

DUNN: No, this is all new.

STROLLA: How was Rhonda once you explained to her what happened? Or did you explain to her or try to in the vehicle?

DUNN: I tried to. But she was hysterical.

STROLLA: OK. And were you still shaking and panicking?

DUNN: I wasn't much better. STROLLA: OK. So was it a little bit difficult for you to verbalize clearly as we are today?

DUNN: Yes, it was. I mean, I tried to get out the fact that they were threatening me. I tried to get out the fact that they were advancing on me. I tried to get out the fact that they were armed. But it was difficult, to say the least.

STROLLA: And was that because of your mental state?

DUNN: Both of ours.

STROLLA: Now, how far away -- did it take you a long time to get back to the hotel?

DUNN: No, not at all.

STROLLA: Do you even remember the ride back? Or was it all a dream?

DUNN: I don't remember pulling in.

STROLLA: OK. You heard Rhonda testify that she got out and she jumped out of the car and ran in. Do you recall that?

DUNN: Vaguely.

STROLLA: OK. Do you even recall what parking spot you parked in?


STROLLA: OK. Do you recall where in the parking lot vicinity you parked?


STROLLA: OK. And once Rhonda runs in, she is still visibly upset, obviously?

DUNN: Yes, she was.

STROLLA: OK. And at this point, is there any communication between you and her about what you're going to do or why? Anything like that?

DUNN: No, no, no.

STROLLA: OK. What do you do in terms of your firearm?

DUNN: I safed it. I took the magazine out and then I took the shell that was in the barrel out. And I put it back into the magazine.

STROLLA: OK. And did you have a little bit difficult time, your hands still shaking?

DUNN: Yeah, I think I dropped stuff.

STROLLA: OK. And at that point, were you even worried about grabbing it and shaking of what might happen?

DUNN: I was being very delicate.

STROLLA: OK. In terms of your emotional state at that point, were you worried about being followed? And I don't mean by police. I mean people trying to find you to hurt you.

DUNN: Absolutely. We were staying at a hotel that has like a club room at the top floor. And we were there looking out the windows like a waking nightmare. Every car was a red SUV, I mean, to us. We were just -- you have to understand, we didn't know anybody had been hurt. We thought we had just made them go away and that they were going to come back.

STROLLA: OK. And again, at this point, have you ever been in any type of situation, even remotely similar?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE1: Objection, asked and answered (ph).

JUDGE : Sustained.


STROLLA: Have you had any type of counseling or training to handle this after a shooting?


STROLLA: Did you even think you would ever need it in your life?

DUNN: No, never.

STROLLA: And how was Rhonda's demeanor once you were upstairs?

DUNN: She was a wreck.

STROLLA: And how was your demeanor once you got upstairs?

DUNN: I wasn't much better, but I, you know, I needed to hold it together for both of us.

STROLLA: And were you trying to do that for her?

DUNN: Yes, I was.

STROLLA: And did you see her testify the other day?

Would that be very similar to how she was acting that night?

DUNN: That was calm compared to that night.

STROLLA: OK. So she was much worse that night?

DUNN: Yes, she was.

STROLLA: And, obviously, sitting here today, you are still visibly upset?

DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA: Would you say this is probably calm to how you were reacting that night?

DUNN: I think I'm more emotional now than I was that night. Because, you know, I was trying to be stoic. I had difficulty processing what was going on.

STROLLA: Were you trying to comfort your fiancee?

DUNN: Yes, I was.

STROLLA: OK. And at some point, did she even have to go get air because you were --

DUNN: Smothering her?


DUNN: Yes.

STROLLA: And again, that was trying to get her to kind of breath and relax?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE1: Judge, I'm (inaudible) leading.

JUDGE: Mr. Strolla, please don't lead.

STROLLA: Mr. Dunn, why were you behaving that way?

DUNN: I was trying to get her to relax and stop hyperventilating and calm down. I was explaining to her it was self-defense, that we were not in trouble with the police. We might be in trouble with the local gangsters but not -- I didn't do anything wrong.

STROLLA: All right, let me ask you this. At some point, did you take Charlie (ph) down stairs to use the bathroom?

DUNN: Yes. We went upstairs, and she changed. We were both wearing, you know, eveningwear.