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"Loud Music" Murder Verdict Watch
Aired February 12, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN. Tonight, all eyes on that Florida courtroom in the case of murder in Jacksonville.
A 45-year-old man guns down a youth when they argue over the kid`s loud music at a gas station. After shooting the youth three times, he speeds off, never bothering to call 911. We obtain the stunning 911 call and secret surveillance video. In a stunning trial strategy move, Michael Dunn takes the stand in his own defense. Did it work?
Bombshell tonight. At this hour, the case is in the hands of a Florida jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jordan Davis didn`t stand a chance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Dunn has an excuse for everything. He says loud music. He says "rap crap."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This defendant was disrespected by a 17-year-old teenager, and he lost it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! Somebody`s shooting!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was shooting to kill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A man who`s never pulled his gun in 40-plus years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not any of the gunshots were justified.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not a conspiracy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn`t "The Matrix." Bullets don`t move.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This defendant may have forever silenced Jordan Davis, but he cannot silence the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The verdicts won`t change the past, but they will forever define it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
We are in a verdict watch at HLN. We are live and taking your calls from the courthouse. Guilty, not guilty? Right now, the latest is this. The jury has a question.
Now, many of you legal eagles know that when the jury has a question and we get to know what the question is, we can very often determine what`s their thinking. For instance, if they say, Hey, what`s the definition of simple battery, you know the state`s got a problem. If they ask a question about murder one, or they ask a question about a particular piece of evidence, that can tell you where their head is, one of them or maybe all of them. The jury still at it at this hour.
Again, we are live and taking your calls. First out to Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent, standing by at the courthouse. Martin, what`s the question? What does the jury want?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Nancy. You`re absolutely right, it was evidence. That is the question that`s on the mind of the jurors tonight. We`re just getting this out of the courtroom. The judge at the head of the case -- he is saying that, apparently, the jurors are requesting to look at surveillance video. That would seem to be surveillance video coming from the Gates gas station, where all of this went down.
And apparently, they want to see it all. In other words, in court they only saw a short part of that tape. Now they`re saying they want to see maybe all six camera angles, and they want to see it from start to end.
But here`s the thing, Nancy. The jurors now say they`ll look at it tomorrow.
GRACE: Well, hold on. Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait! Wait, wait, wait! The judge -- from what I understand the question to be, they say, Can we watch it in the morning or as soon as possible. Here`s my big question. Can they get that video right now?
We are still in a verdict watch here at HLN, all eyes on that Florida courtroom. Marty, here`s my next question. The surveillance video -- they were shown only a portion of it. No one introduced different camera angles. My question, Marty, is, the different camera angles, are they all from inside the Gate gas station, or is there any outdoor surveillance video? That`s what I`ve been screaming from the get-go. Is there any outdoor surveillance video?
SAVIDGE: Right. Well, because it wasn`t introduced, because we didn`t see it in the courtroom, we haven`t seen it as part of the evidence, I can`t answer that question for you. We only know there are apparently six angles. And remember, it was also dark out there, so I don`t know how well they work at night if there is an external view.
GRACE: OK, see, that`s going to be a problem, Martin Savidge, because if something is not admitted into evidence, they may not get to look at it. However, if it is simply another portion of that same tape that has come into evidence, they do have a right to look at the entire tape if it`s part of what was let into evidence.
Martin Savidge with me, everybody, there in front of the courthouse. Martin, have you seen the jury responding? How did they act during closing arguments? Was anybody shaking their head yes? Did anybody look they were angry? I saw Jordan Davis`s father break down crying in the courtroom. Did anybody look back at him?
SAVIDGE: No, there wasn`t. I mean, this jury has been extremely studious. They`ve been taking their notes. They`ve had their full attention. There`s never been a time when we`ve seen them wander. And certainly, today their eyes were all glued on both the prosecution and the defense.
They didn`t acknowledge the breakdown of the father. That came at the very end of the state`s presentation of their closing argument. So there was no real insight you got from their faces. We`re going to have to look at the questions, and as you say, the first one coming right now.
GRACE: So -- Martin Savidge with me, everybody, and he is also taking your calls.
Let`s go out to Louann, Pennsylvania. Hi, Dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. They keep talking about these kids having a gun.
GRACE: They didn`t have a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the police went looking for it. How would the police know to look for a gun since Dunn never called them to tell them that there was a gun involved. He never called 911.
GRACE: And -- and he didn`t mention it to his fiancee when she got in the car. I remember, as I mentioned last night, the first time a gun was pulled on me when I was a prosecutor, that`s the first thing I did was I called my family, I called my now husband, I said, This guy just pulled a long gun on me and my investigator. I will never forget it.
But she gets in the car, and they peel out and he never says, That guy just pulled a gun on me. Never mentioned a word.
Hey, you know what? Back to you, Martin Savidge. She`s right. It turned into, as it often does, attack the defense -- excuse me, attack the police. It`s the police`s fault that they didn`t find a gun.
But Martin Savidge, look at it this way. The girlfriend was never told there was a gun. The three guys in the car say there wasn`t a gun. None of the witnesses there at the Gate gas station say they saw a gun. The crime scene techs didn`t find a gun. And when police came back to search, there wasn`t a gun. So who am I supposed to believe, all of them or Michael Dunn?
SAVIDGE: Well, the prosecution will say, Look, there just was no gun. In fact, that was the opening line of their closing statement today, There was no gun. And they said this was not a case of a gun that was lost by bad police work. The gun never existed.
They did say, Look, 17-year-old Jordan Davis may have had a big mouth, but he never had a weapon.
GRACE: With me right now, in addition to Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent, joining me is a supporter of "stand your ground," George Zimmerman spokesperson Frank Taaffe, also joining me from Florida.
So Frank Taaffe, if you look at the list, nobody sees the gun but your man Michael Dunn, not the witnesses at the gas station, not the guys in the car. He never told his fiancee. She never saw a gun. The crime techs didn`t find a gun. Nobody knows anything about a gun. In fact, your guy, Michael Dunn, actually tells police, Hey, you know what? Maybe I imagined that gun.
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: OK, to answer your question, it took the police four days to investigate another (ph) crime scene, OK? They -- the witnesses that were in the truck told them, and other witnesses saw them pull into the plaza, and that was a testimony that was given on the night of the shooting, OK? Why didn`t the police -- I`m just elaborating here about reasonable doubt, Nancy, OK?
GRACE: Let`s just focus on the imaginary gun.
TAAFFE: It took them four days, 96 hours. How did Michael Dunn -- how can he tell the police that they`re in that plaza over there? I saw them pull into the plaza. He didn`t tell them that, OK?
GRACE: Yes, he didn`t because he peeled off and went and got himself some more booze.
TAAFFE: The witnesses saw them...
GRACE: Yes, they go back to the bed and breakfast...
TAAFFE: The cops broke all protocol as far as the witnesses here. They huddled them all together...
GRACE: Why would they even think...
TAAFFE: ... back into that Gate gas station.
GRACE: ... they should look for a gun? Because your man, Michael Dunn, peels out, leaves.
TAAFFE: Why -- OK, I`m going to answer that!
GRACE: They have to find him. He never told them that.
TAAFFE: You know why? Because -- I`m going to tell you. Tommie Stornes -- I`m going to answer it. Tommie Stornes was on active felony probation. Could you imagine if he walked up to that investigator and said, yes, we had a gun in the car? What would happen to him, Nancy?
GRACE: Well, because...
TAAFFE: Come on! None of them...
GRACE: ... it`s not true?
TAAFFE: ... were forthcoming, none of them. And another thing, they never subpoenaed...
GRACE: Why are you saying...
TAAFFE: ... the text messages...
GRACE: ... they weren`t forthcoming? That doesn`t even make any sense!
TAAFFE: Well, I`m going to try to clarify here...
GRACE: Liz, pull the sound for me about the gun, please.
TAAFFE: ... OK?
GRACE: Pull the sound for me about the gun. Let`s hear it from the courtroom.
Back to you, Christina Coleman, news editor, Global Grind. Nobody sees the gun but Michael Dunn, and then he tells police maybe he imagined it. That does not equal self-defense.
CHRISTINA COLEMAN, GLOBAL GRIND: No, not at all. And I mean, we can even go to defense attorney Strolla`s (ph) argument that, Oh, they had three minutes to hide the gun in the parking lot? It`s ridiculous. If they had three minutes to hide a shotgun barrel, whatever weapon Michael Dunn imagined, in a parking lot in three minutes, and then go back to the gas station, then somebody needs to give these teens a job because, I mean, they need to be a part of the CIA or something.
And then we have, you know -- he never called the police. He never called the police, so they wouldn`t even know.
GRACE: Hold on just a moment. I`m hearing Martin Savidge there at the courthouse.
Martin, question. Do you think there`s any way that this video the jury has just asked for -- they`ve given a question. The question is they want to see the surveillance video.
Liz, let`s take a look at the surveillance video that we`ve got. Now, what we`ve got was what was introduced in front of the jury. Take a look. The shooting is going down now. They`re hearing, Pop, pop, pop, pop. And somebody says, Hey, they`re shooting out there. That`s gunfire. And they go out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! Somebody`s shooting. Somebody`s shooting out of their car.
Oh, my God! Somebody`s shooting!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, let`s go to Frank Taaffe and Martin Savidge. Frank Taaffe, six shots, one after the next. Do the boys fire back? No, they don`t. They run. And what does your guy do? He gets down in a police pose, gets out of his car. They`re trying to get away. He gets down on his knee like he`s Rambo and continues to fire at them. They`re trying to get away.
TAAFFE: Maybe he was trying to be Dirty Harry. Who knows? But I`m going to answer your question. You said that about the gun, how did they know about the gun? Well, in the interview the next day with the police, he indicated to them that there was a gun. So at that moment, you think they would have got on their cell phones and say, Hey, he`s saying there was a gun. Where were these other guys at? Oh, they were in a plaza a football field-length away, over 100 yards in the dark. And guess what...
GRACE: Aren`t you leaving something out, Taaffe? Aren`t you leaving something out?
GRACE: Martin Savidge, isn`t it true that that night, after he guns down and kills Jordan Davis, he and his girlfriend go to a hotel...
TAAFFE: Not the pizza.
GRACE: ... they start drinking...
TAAFFE: Don`t talk about the pizza.
GRACE: ... they order pizza. He never mentions the gun. They never call 911. It`s only the next day, when police find him, that he comes up and finally verbalizes the gun story. Isn`t that true, Savidge?
SAVIDGE: That is true. It`s the way it was played out by the prosecution, that, in fact, that it showed that this was a man who thought he could get away with murder, that he left the scene, never called 911, goes a couple of miles away with his fiancee, checks into a hotel, has a drink or two, has pizza, goes to bed, takes a shower the next day, then realizes that the teen has died. He saw it on the news, still doesn`t call authorities, gets in his car with his fiancee and drives 130 miles back home, never talking to police.
GRACE: So Martin Savidge, he could dial Papa John`s, right, or Domino`s, or whatever it was, but he couldn`t dial 911. Is that what you`re telling me, Marty?
SAVIDGE: I`m not, but the prosecution would say yes.
GRACE: Let`s go into the courtroom. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five-eleven, less than 145 pounds, Jordan Davis didn`t stand a chance. Sitting in the back of that SUV, he is frantically called by his best friend, Leland Brunston (ph). And this defendant fired round after round after round into that car, 6.25 pounds of trigger pull (ph) each time he made the conscious decision to pull the trigger, systematically and methodically shooting into that SUV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This defendant shot and killed Jordan Davis...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant, the defendant, the defendant -- he`s got a name. His name`s Michael Dunn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... fired round after round after round into that car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jordan Davis (INAUDIBLE) and it was a tragedy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four teenage boys who had their full lives ahead of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Innocent, not even not guilty. He is innocent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are in a verdict watch here at HLN, all eyes on a Florida courtroom as the jury deliberates the fate of Michael Dunn, now 47 years old, Dunn accused of opening fire on a carload of teens because they`re playing loud music. He says he thought they had a gun and that it was self-defense. He also claims that 17-year-old Jordan Davis had gotten out of the car and said, This (EXPLETIVE DELETED) going down right now, to come and kill him.
But there`s no doubt on the physical evidence that Jordan Davis was shot while in the car. Take a listen to what just got said in the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ladies and gentlemen, Jordan Davis was not outside of his car. He wasn`t standing there with two feet on the ground and his body maybe inside. I think the defendant (INAUDIBLE) Mr. Guy yesterday said, Oh, you`re splitting hairs in asking where Jordan was. Those two circles on the door showing where the bullets came in -- the bullets popped out that plastic that`s now lying on the seat of the Durango.
As Detective Kipple (ph) testified tie, fit like a jigsaw puzzle. There is no way this plastic would have been where it was if Jordan Davis was shot outside that car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Danny Cevallos, Philadelphia, Alex Sanchez, New York, Mo Ivory, lawyer, radio personality, Atlanta. Also with me, Frank Taaffe, Zimmerman spokesperson supporting "stand your ground" law.
All right, out to you, Taaffe. You heard that. You saw the evidence. Jordan Davis was in the car when he was shot. Now, how was that a threat to your man Michael Dunn?
TAAFFE: May I approach the bench, your honor?
GRACE: I don`t think this is the time for any sarcasm. There is a dead boy...
TAAFFE: OK, well, I just want to -- all right, here`s...
GRACE: ... and your guy`s looking at...
TAAFFE: ... the deal.
GRACE: ... life behind bars.
TAAFFE: I demonstrated on your show two nights ago the ballistics, how those shots were made into that back door. There was no way -- and it was brought up in closing arguments. Mr. Strolla (ph) brought out the fact that it wasn`t -- it defies the laws of physics. There`s no way you can get a center shot on that back door in that grouping of shots reaching across and down. They are consistent. And it was even more consistent when he said those dowels (ph), when you open that back door, they align themselves...
GRACE: Well, let me ask you this...
TAAFFE: ... up perfectly. Go ahead.
GRACE: Taaffe, did Michael Dunn bring on an expert to point that out, or is this just you saying this and his defense lawyer?
TAAFFE: OK, why didn`t the state bring it out? The burden of proof is on the state.
GRACE: The state brought out that he was clearly in the car. All right, Mo, weigh in.
MO IVORY, ATTORNEY, RADIO PERSONALITY: Yes, I mean, listen, what -- Nancy, earlier you said that what Frank Taaffe was saying made no common sense. Everything he says makes no common sense. The prosecution explained how easily those shots killed Jordan Davis.
TAAFFE: You said the same thing about Zimmerman, Mo!
IVORY: Please be quiet!
TAAFFE: You said the same thing about Zimmerman!
IVORY: Listen! The fact that a murderer got off doesn`t have anything to do with what we`re talking about right now. What I said about George Zimmerman...
TAAFFE: The jury says...
IVORY: ... is true in that case...
TAAFFE: That`s not what the jury said!
IVORY: ... and this will be true in this case. Another murderer is going to be on the stand. This time, the jury will get it right. Jordan Davis never got out of the car. We know that. He never had a gun in the car. We know that Michael Dunn started shooting at a car full of teenagers because he wanted to kill Jordan Davis!
GRACE: We are in a verdict watch here at HLN, all eyes on a Florida courtroom as a jury deliberates the fate of 47-year-old Michael Dunn. There he is. Now, the jury didn`t hear anything about his previous DUI arrest or about him driving a plane over protected federal airspace, Cape Canaveral. He said he was confused and disoriented. They don`t know anything about that.
We are live. We are positioned at the courthouse, and we are taking your calls.
Unleash the lawyers, Sanchez, Cevallos, with me, Frank Taaffe, Mo Ivory.
Matt Zarrell, what I was trying to explain to Taaffe was that the crime scene tech found pieces of the car inside the car that shows the car was -- the car door was closed, and Jordan Davis was in the car when the shots went down.
Can you boil it down and make it understandable? Not legal talk, Matt.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes. Basically, what the prosecutor is saying is that with the door being closed, the plastic from the inside of the door where the bullet went through -- the plastic went on the seat because the door was closed. If the door was open because Jordan Davis was coming out of the car, that plastic would have been on the floor between the opening of the door and the rest of the car.
GRACE: On the floor or out there on the asphalt...
ZARRELL: Yes, on the concrete.
GRACE: Yes. Exactly. All right, Alex Sanchez, veteran defense attorney joining me out of New York. Weigh in, Alex.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, I don`t think you realize and I don`t think anybody on this program realizes the prosecution may have made a catastrophic error which could result in the acquittal of this man. I`m going to tell you exactly why.
That letter they sent to (sic) the jury in which they wanted to see all the tapes? Well, the district attorney did not introduce all of those tapes, and the jury is never going to see all of those tapes. And they`re going to start asking questions. How come the prosecution did not introduce all of those tapes? What is the prosecution hiding in this case?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is so ridiculous!
SANCHEZ: And you know something? You can laugh. You may say it`s ridiculous.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is ridiculous.
SANCHEZ: That`s the question the jury is going to be asked.
GRACE: Hold on, guys. I`m not saying it`s ridiculous because that was the point I was making at the very beginning of tonight`s program, where I said if all of the surveillance video is on one tape, they`ll get the tape because they have a right. That tape was admitted into evidence. However, if it`s different pieces of tape, they may not be able to get it.
GRACE: They can only get what was admitted into evidence.
SANCHEZ: What is the jury...
GRACE: Well, let me also point out...
SANCHEZ: ... going to conclude as a result of that?
GRACE: ... that the defense -- isn`t it true, Danny Cevallos, the defense could have introduced that just as well as the state could have?
DANNY CEVALLOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. I have to believe the defense probably did not want it in.
But Nancy, I have to go back to something you brought up just before the break, and it`s a really good point, to toot your horn. You talked about the defense possibly calling an actual self-defense expert. And I think had they done that -- and I`m not panning on the defense, they`ve done a good job with bad facts -- a self-defense expert would have told the jury that somebody, if they have a weapon, can close 20 feet in one or two seconds.
And that may have begun to explain away why this man fired so many shots because without a self-defense expert to give them that -- the jury that idea of that eminent (ph) theory -- you can hear the shots there in the background -- without that eminent (ph) fear brought home by an expert, Dunn had no chance of doing it on his own.
IVORY: Yes, you know, what I do think is ridiculous is to think that the jury is going to think just because there is a portion of the videotape seen or introduced into evidence that that`s going to change their whole perspective on this case. Listen, the prosecution did an excellent job when they came back and ended the closing by saying that the only thing that everybody has to look at, that the jurors have to pay attention to, is common sense, common...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL DUNN: He says this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is going down now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s the phrase this defendant said made him fear for his life. Did he tell the detective that? Nope.
DUNN: (INAUDIBLE) like a man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: All eyes on a Florida courthouse as the jury deliberates the fate of now 47-year-old Michael Dunn. Dunn accused of engaging in a fight with a group of youth over their loud music, then gunning one of them down. The boy still seated in his car. There was no evidence that any of the boys in that Durango had a gun. This is Jordan Davis. Take a look at him.
Then according to police, Michael Dunn speeds away, never bothering to call police. As a matter of fact, take a listen to what went down just an hour ago in the courtroom. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He makes a drink, a stiff one, because he was being (inaudible) and trying to come the nerve around the robber. Rhonda Rouer didn`t know that this defendant had just killed a 17-year old. And when the defendant learned at 1:00 in the morning that one of the people in that car had died, what did he do? He didn`t wake up Rhonda Rouer (inaudible) to tell her, oh, my gosh, I killed somebody. He didn`t go call 911 and say, listen, I need to tell you what happened. He didn`t care. He let Rhonda sleep right through the night. And he himself then went to bed at 5:00 in the morning. Those are not actions of somebody acting in self- defense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And the state brought out in closing statements the inconsistencies, the discrepancies in Michael Dunn`s various statements. Out to Clark Goldband. Clark, what do we know?
CLARK GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy. You said inconsistencies. There were a host of inconsistencies that were brought out, and it all starts with the music you`re referring to. Let`s take a look at them right now. Dunn says he heard loud thumping music. But then he also says she gets out and the music starts, referring to the love of his life. Also talking about two men with menacing expressions. They are on the stand. "I don`t know how many kids were in the car." The inconsistencies don`t stop there. He talks about how many drinks he had, probably three to four. But then you also hear he had a toast in a rum and coke. He says the boys made their intentions clear. He then says, I didn`t know the intentions, then talking about the positioning of the kids. He stepped out, he opens the door. Which is it? The prosecution continued to bring out inconsistencies. He never told law enforcement. All the statements you see on the screen including those laced with obscenities including, "This is going down." And it doesn`t stop there, Nancy. The prosecution hammering home those inconsistencies saying that the defendant called the neighbor, but the neighbor called the defendant and came out and told him not to take the gun to the hotel. There was no mention in testimony about that gun. Nancy, at the very least, you have to think, and also this last statement, the defendant said "rap crap," but it came out in court, "I hate that thug music." At the very least, you are seeing seeds of doubt the state trying to place on why we`re seeing these conflicting stories.
GRACE: My biggest problem with his varying statements is that he never told anybody about the gun at the time of the incident. Only when he realizes he`s killed somebody that he suddenly remembers a gun.
GOLDBAND: And the thing is -- exactly. The thing is, Nancy, that it`s not just one or two, there are a host of these inconsistencies the state has brought up in court, and those are just a few of them.
GRACE: To the lines, Tim, Virginia. Hi, Tim. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Just for Frank Taaffe, if Michael Dunn was a black defendant and the ones he shot were white, would he be standing up on where he is, this guy?
FRANK TAAFFE: It`s all about the judicial - Absolutely. Absolutely. This ain`t a black or white thing, like the parents said. You know what, Nancy? I`m getting perturbed here, and I`ll tell you why.
Because there`s a lot of ...
GRACE: Because you`re backed into a corner because Michael Dunn lied on the stand?
TAAFFE: No, I`m cool. I`m cool. I`ll tell you what, the state had a lot of inconsistencies that were brought out at closing by Mr. Stroller (ph). The three witnesses said the door couldn`t open. Well, guess what? Door opens, Jordan Davis gets out, ballistics, dead center shot, it all adds up. If I`m a juror in that jury, sitting in that jury box, I`m going to be looking at the forensics. And I`m glad they`re asking questions.
GRACE: You know ...
TAAFFE: Because they`re going to come back with either a hung jury or he`s going to be acquitted.
GRACE: Joye M. Carter, you know, I appreciate all that, Taaffe, but I don`t believe that you`re a medical examiner. Let`s go to the chief forensic pathologist of Marion County, author of "I Speak for the Dead." Dr. Carter, isn`t it true that two of the three shots the boy took were from a backward angle? Those are the two shots to the groin.
DR. JOYE M. CARTER, M.D., CHIEF FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, MARION CO.: According to my information, yes. That`s coming from the back, so it`s going back to front, not offensive (ph) injury.
GRACE: What does that mean to you, Dr. Carter?
CARTER: First, he`s not facing the shooter. He was shot from the back. He`s not being aggressive and - on the offensive towards the shooter. He`s shot in the back. He`s trying to get away or in a position where he`s not facing the shooter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That defendant didn`t shoot into a car full of kids to save his life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ten rounds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re not going to talk me into like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His blood was boiling, he was so mad he grabbed his gun and he popped right into that truck.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was more important to make sure the dog went out for a walk and to get the dog home than it was to notify police?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Dunn doesn`t have to prove anything. He is innocent. Innocent, not even not guilty, he is innocent under the law. Until the state and the state and the state alone evidence can overcome it. And I`m not even at self-defense yet. I haven`t even started talking about self-defense yet, have I?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Self-defense? Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent joining me at the courthouse and taking your calls. Here`s the deal. Taaffe goes on and on and on and on about those boys driving off and he says they`re throwing away a gun? If I had a gun and somebody was shooting at me, I would fire back at them. And the reason they were taking off is because he is shooting at them, they don`t have a gun! I would leave, too, if somebody was shooting at me, nine the MPA. You`re darn right I would!
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That`s exactly the point that the prosecution makes, Nancy. They say, look, if Jordan Davis had a shotgun as Michael Dunn says he did, he would have fired that gun, and those young men driving off, they weren`t trying to get away, they were fearing for their lives. They were trying to get out of the gunfire. And remember, Michael Dunn kept shooting even as they were driving away. The basic point that the prosecution is saying is that this was not self-defense, this was murder, because Michael Dunn really felt like he had been disrespected by a 17-year-old kid and he wasn`t going to stand for it.
GRACE: I`m just sick about it, Martin. I`m just sick about it because every time I look at that picture of Jordan Davis where his dad is putting his tie on him, I don`t know if you`ve seen that or not, I just think of my son. True, he`s just six now, but I remember the first time I ever put a tie on him -- it was a clip-on -- on Easter Day. And when I look at that picture, that`s what I think of, and I am not raising him and his sister up and giving all my love and all my energy and all my hopes and all my dreams for some jackass to come along and fire at him when he`s sitting in the car minding his own business. They`re teenagers, of course, they`re playing the music too loud. Of course, they are. Let me go out to Caryn Stark. Caryn, stand by, we`re taking calls. Sophia in Texas. Hi, Sophia, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. God bless you and your family and thank you.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For giving your viewers a voice. I`m going to try to, in a few seconds, just to give the comments to hear your view on it. I believe that this killer left the wedding in a rage because something there triggered him to kill this young man. And I don`t know - at the moment that the bullets were being fired, the fiancee turned and she went out, so I guess she was thinking, oh, it must be my fiancee shooting off the gun, we better get out of here. And it doesn`t make sense that you`re in a relationship, you`re in a long trip, and you`re not going to be talking about something? It`s so ...
GRACE: Yeah, you know, what`s interesting, Sophia, to follow up on that, Caryn Stark, I`m throwing it to you. There`s the video. There`s the video she`s talking about. That`s what Sophia is talking about, right there. The fiancee, they hear the gunshots and they turn around, and they all go and look. And she`s like -- he had sent her in to go get even more booze. Caryn Stark, what do you make of it?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: She`s unfazed, but I need to say something to you, Nancy, you`re not alone in what you are feeling. I mean just the fact that this kid was trapped in a car, and everyone can relate to it. It`s ludicrous, the man is not believable. And I hope it helps to realize. I can`t imagine that this jury will find him to be a credible witness. He - first, there is a gun, then he`s not sure there is a gun. He`s confused again like he was confused the last time, which they won`t hear about it.
STARK: This is a man who doesn`t care.
GRACE: Flying into that air space over Cape Canaveral. Guys, I`m hearing in my ear straight out of the courtroom right now is the attorney for Jordan`s family, John Phillips. John, I saw Jordan`s father break down and start crying in the courtroom today, and I can`t get that image out of my mind. How are the parents doing tonight, John?
JOHN PHILLIPS, ATTORNEY FOR THE FAMILY OF JORDAN DAVIS: That question has been asked to me for almost 450 days in a row, and it`s - this is one of the harder days to answer. They`re optimistic. They, you know, in some aspects they`re really good and really happy with the way the trial went, but there`s still that fire in the pit of their stomach of uncertainty, and they just, you know, told me to convey to you personally, thank you for all that you`re doing for them and to keep it - you know, keep it up for a little bit longer.
GRACE: I just hate when I see him crying like that in court. Susan Constantine, jury consultant, body language expert, it reminds me so many cases I tried where the victim`s family, I mean there`s nothing else they can do except sit there and cry. I mean can that possibly be lost on this jury?
SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT & BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Well, I don`t know if it will be lost on them, but there`s no doubt that those jurors, when they`re facing towards the jury pool, that they are going to be able to see the parents that are seated behind them, and the emotion that they`re feeling is going to trigger an emotion in them. That is, if they`re looking at them. You know, I sat through the Trayvon Martin case, too, and I saw Mr. Martin. He was seated right in front of me. And when he broke down and he cried, don`t think that those jurors didn`t feel some empathy for him. It was very, very deep. But on the other hand, it`s not enough to really persuade those jurors because they`ve got a solemn job to do and that is to find guilt or innocence.
GRACE: Straight out to Martin Savidge standing by at the courthouse. Martin, there`s been a lot of speculation regarding that videotape that the jury has just requested that they want to see. Now, we saw what the jury has seen so far, and it`s of the inside of the Gate gas station, where the fiancee and the cashier heard (ph) the six bullets, and you can hear them saying, whoa, somebody is shooting a gun. They want all the different camera angles. What were those angles admitted into evidence?
SAVIDGE: There were, Nancy. I investigated that after we talked about this earlier in the program. And yes, all of the video, all six angles, the entire video, had been entered as evidence in the case, but at trial, they only played a short segment, the part you saw and showed, which is the gunfire from within. I`m also told by those who know this video that there`s nothing on the video that shows the actual shooting. It only captures the interior reaction.
GRACE: You know, Martin, I was just about to say, I guarantee you that if that video showed anything, either for the state or the defense, those sides would have brought it in. It must be video that`s just like sitting, you know, on a gas pump or something, and you don`t see anything probative. Translation, anything that proves anything. So there you go, Taaffe. There you go, there is your argument, oh, the state hit something. Savidge found out, just as we speculated-- it all came in, and they`re going to get to look at it tomorrow.
TAAFFE: Great. You know, I have a question. When those boys drove off, why would they go back to that same gas station where they just got shot up, not even knowing if Michael Dunn was still there? Huh?
GRACE: I imagine that they came back because they were trying to save Jordan Davis` life and they were trying to go to somewhere--
TAAFFE: But how would they know Dunn had left?
GRACE: -- drove back and they saw the car wasn`t there. That doesn`t take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
TAAFFE: Do we as human beings go back to the threat or do we keep moving away from it? Huh?
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, in evidence, they come back, came out, they went back, they saw that he wasn`t there, and they were trying to get help for Jordan Davis, and they knew people were there in the gas station.
ZARRELL: Yes, the driver, Tommy Stornes (ph), testified to that.
GRACE: Hold on. Out to Martin Savidge. Martin, it is my understanding the judge has let the jury go -- they go back, they are sequestered, but they`ve gone home for the night. Is that right?
SAVIDGE: That`s right, Nancy. The judge has in fact said that they can go home for the night. They`ll look at that video tomorrow. And we understand proceedings begin at 10:00 am.
GRACE: Alex Sanchez, this is what I don`t understand. If he was so convinced that they had a gun, Jordan Davis had a gun, why did he get out of the car and get down in a police stance and start shooting? If he thought they had a gun? Why, Alex, did he get out of the car, exposed himself to gunfire?
SANCHEZ: You know, the issue is not whether or not a gun was actually recovered. If he reasonably believed that there was a gun there--
GRACE: Can you answer my question?
SANCHEZ: -- that he may have sustained the argument of self-defense, and that is (inaudible) and you know it, Nancy, because you know the law.
GRACE: OK, Cevallos, can you answer the question? Cevallos, are you with me?
CEVALLOS: I can`t remember what the question was.
GRACE: All right, Taaffe.
GRACE: Go, Danny, I am asking you a question.
TAAFFE: I love Danny.
GRACE: Mo, if he believed they had a gun, Jordan Davis had a gun, if somebody was shooting at me, the last thing I would do is get out of my car and get down on my knee like I`m Rambo and beg to be shot. Not only that, he put his gun away. He knew he didn`t need it because he knew they did not have a gun, Mo.
IVORY: Nancy, exactly. And the reason why he was so able to flee the scene and go to the hotel and get a drink and have a pizza was because he was thinking about the defense that he was going to present. And when he was ready, he knew the police would be coming at some point, he was going to raise that (inaudible), self-defense, self-defense.
GRACE: OK, everybody, let`s stop and remember -- let`s remember American hero Marine Lance Corporal Carlos Aragon. Just 19. Orem, Utah. Purple Heart, National Defense Service Medal, loved `70s rock, hiking, guitar. Mother, Rosa, stepfather Brad. Carlos Aragon. American hero.
Everyone, the jury has gone home for the day. They`ll resume tomorrow morning. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.