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Mistrial on Murder Charge; "I`m Sorry For Their Loss"; Alleged Craigslist Serial Killer; Porn Saved Her Family
Aired February 17, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, loud music murder trial outrage. The mistrial may have surprised you, but Ms. Ali predicted it.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I`m worried that it`s going to be a hung jury.
PINSKY: Then, George Zimmerman in his own words.
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, ACQUITTED OF MURDER: My life would be tremendously easier if I had stayed home.
PINSKY: Does he even thing about the boy he killed?
And the social media drinking game where some are ending up dead.
Plus, a teen claims she`s a serial killer. Do you believe her?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host is Sirius XM`s Jenny Hutt.
Coming up, George Zimmerman in his own words.
But first, a mixed verdict in the loud music murder trial is getting a mixed reaction, Jenny. The jury could not come to a decision on the first degree murder.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: I know. It`s kind of crazy, right?
PINSKY: Well, take a look at this.
ALI: You got nine white men, two blacks and an Asian, and they`re not going to lose this case. They`re going to vote him not guilty. The reason that this guy`s going to get off with most of these charges, everything in this country has always portrayed black males as threatening, menacing. Therefore, any white person that talks about this, they`re going to say he had a right to shoot.
REPORTER: On the charge related to the 17-year-old`s death, the jury could not agree.
JUDGE: Based on the jury`s inability to reach a verdict as to count one, I would declare that mistrial.
ALI: I listen to him and I`m black, well, you know, he got a point, just like he just said. So actually they just blew the case again. Why they keep getting those failed prosecutors up there and not get some new people?
PROSECUTOR: Their opening statement and closing arguments were really, really good.
PINSKY: Now, coming up, we will actually be speaking to Michael Dunn`s daughter exclusively.
Jenny, your thoughts on this case?
HUTT: Well, look, Angela Corey right there was saying -- congratulating her team, right after the verdict, right, Dr. Drew?
HUTT: But then now she says she wants to retry the first degree murder part. So which is it?
PINSKY: Which is it? Did they do a good job or not?
Let`s bring in our panel. Mike Catherwood, TV and radio host, also my co- host on "Loveline", Jason Ellis, host of "The Jason Ellis Show" on Sirius XM Radio.
Jason`s new book "The Awesome Guide to Life" goes on sale tomorrow. Good on you, mate.
JASON ELLIS, RADIO HOST: Yes, I`m going to be rich and famous!
PINSKY: Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell."
Loni, it made you famous but not rich.
Shahrazad Ali comes back, social commentator. She is the author of "The Blackman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackwoman."
Ms. Ali, you called it. Your thoughts?
ALI: Well, you know, I think we have to remember that we don`t live in a theocracy. Laws in this country are sanctioned and made based on opinion. They`re not based on what`s right and wrong. And they couldn`t find him guilty. They`d probably have a thousand lawsuits since 2005 they have released over 200 perpetrators who kill people in Florida because of the stand your ground law. They couldn`t find him guilty.
As long as he says he was scared and as long as he says he feared for his life and all of that nonsense, then they have to find him innocent. There`s no point in trying him again. The state cannot do it.
PINSKY: But, Loni, they did find him guilty of attempting to murder the other three kids, not the one who they claim may have been menacing.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Right, the one he actually killed. They really defied logic when you look at it that way. But essentially what it looks like the jurors were thinking based on their questions is at least one of them, if not more, had an issue with self-defense and believed that he had a right to self-defense against Jordan Davis.
Whether they believe he intimidated him by threatening or there was a potential shotgun, whatever it was. They say for that one victim, Jordan Davis, he had a right to self-defense, so we`re not going to agree on that one, but the other three kids in the car did absolutely nothing to threaten him in any way, no self defense, then you get the conviction.
PINSKY: And, Jason and Mike, you guys are fighters, grapplers -- Jason, you do MMA. Jason, you first, do you really think this guy was threatened?
ELLIS: Somewhat, yeah, I think he was threatened, but threatened is not enough to shoot and kill somebody.
MIKE CATHERWOOD, RADIO PERSONALITY: It`s certainly not enough to open fire on a car full of teenagers, teenagers. I`m by no means a tough guy, but believe me --
ELLIS: Yes, you are.
CATHERWOOD: I`ve seen the pictures the of this young man who was killed. It goes with Trayvon Martin. Like I said, I`m by no means John Wayne but I would have no problem at least trying to defend myself before resorting to pulling a gun on these young, young kids. They look like they`re practically pubescent.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, you actually looked sad for a second there. What are you feeling?
ALI: I do. Well, as long as we allow attorneys to pick jurors who identify with the perpetrator instead of the victim, this is how it`s going to come out. They never gave Jordan Davis a personality. They never really made him a real person. All they did was concentrate on what Dunn was saying and all of the lies he was making up.
This is how it goes. When I tell you these things are happening, you all say I`m race baiting, I`m imagining it, things are different.
They`re not different for us. We`re getting killed every day. And we get killed by your people.
PINSKY: Loni is right next to you there in that box. I see her nodding and shaking her head yes.
COOMBS: Ms. Ali, absolutely, I agree with her. When you say they did not make this victim come alive. They had the perfect chance when they had Jordan Davis` father on the stand. They could have said, tell us about your boy. And he could have come alive in front of that jury.
The prosecution didn`t even ask any questions about that. And I agree with you l00 percent. They made a huge mistake.
PINSKY: We have a poll that`s posted on HLNTV.com Web site, 72 percent disagree with the verdict, 28 percent agree.
Mike, you wanted to comment.
CATHERWOOD: I just wanted to say to Ms. Ali, that I can understand her being very upset and to recognize the differences in the way that certain races are treated.
ALI: You can`t understand that.
PINSKY: Hold on, wait, wait, wait, Mike, she said you can`t understand that. Wait, wait, wait, you represent a minority, right?
CATHERWOOD: Yes, I happen to be Mexican. But I just wanted to say to George Zimmerman and Michael Dunn are not my people, by no means. Regardless of the color of their skin, they`re not my people. I stand behind that.
Their behavior represents a type of man who is compensating and posturing.
CATHERWOOD: In a way that really -- clearly, clearly indicates their lack of --
PINSKY: Mike, it only takes a very small number of guys like that to make an entire population of people feel burdened, but I`m saying even if it is a small amount, Ms. Ali, even small numbers, it feels like a big number when they`re so awful. No? Disagree?
ALI: Well, it would be easy, it would be easy if all of us -- it would be easy if all of us could reject our own kind and say it`s just a few of us, but actually white teenagers and black teenagers do things. That`s not even the issue. It is just whether or not white people just like in Florida like I said -- they`ve had 200 perpetrators who have been set free who shot killed most of the people based on stand your ground.
That law is not going to change. It was originally designed by the Republicans in response to the gun lobbyists and so forth. Now, we have it and that`s what the country is stuck with. That law is not going to change. Nobody is going to change that law.
CATHERWOOD: Ms. Ali, it is not --
PINSKY: Right now, 26 states have it.
CATHERWOOD: It is not the justice system`s job to appease racial discrimination in the country. It`s their job by what the juries of those cases decide to be justice in those given situations.
PINSKY: I want to get an opinion from somebody who didn`t grow up in this country.
Jason, do you understand what we`re fighting about here?
ELLIS: Oh, I just wish everybody could love each other a little more. The whole races and that guy`s an old guy and I`m a tough guy. I don`t have a gun, but if I had a gun and I got into an argument with somebody and they said, I will kill you, I would leave, because I want to live. Why would you shoot at somebody?
I actually agree with Ms. Ali for once. I think it is a race thing here. How can he shoot that kid and get away with it? He`s dead. Why is he walking?
PINSKY: Jenny --
HUTT: I refuse to think that there`s no possibility to change the stand your ground laws. I refuse to think that, Ms. Ali. We have to fight to get that law changed because you`re right, people are hiding behind that law and murdering innocent young people because they can. And you`re right.
However, I believe we can together get that changed.
PINSKY: All right. We`ve got to hold it right there. Peace and love, peace and love.
ELLIS: Peace and love. Yes.
PINSKY: What Ringo Starr says.
Next up, Michael Dunn`s daughter -- that`s right -- his daughter will join me exclusively to talk about the verdict and the possible retrial.
And later, what is George Zimmerman saying now about the night he shot and killed Trayvon Martin? We`ll hear from him after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI: I`m worried that it`s going to be a hung jury because the black people are going to feel that they have to try in some kind of way to avenge the murder of him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one is putting this jury on trial. The judge said this jury has given up 17 days of their life. This family has given up 17 years and probably 80 or 90 more years with a teenager who is dead because someone else could not mind their own business.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not in my nature, actually, to not lash out, to not say inflammatory statements or whatever. And I have to hold all that in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny.
There`s a lot of controversy after the loud music murder trial verdict or non-verdict as the case may be.
Let`s bring in the behavior bureau. Again, I apologize for my voice. It`s ridiculous tonight. I`m feeling well, but not able to project my voice.
Loni Coombs is still with us. Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, Samantha Schacher, social commentator, host of "Pop Trigger" in the Young Turks Network, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist.
Now, also joining our panel by phone is Michael Dunn`s daughter Rebecca. She`s speaking exclusively to us.
Rebecca, thank you for joining us.
A lot of harsh stuff is being said about your father. What do you want us to know about him?
REBECCA DUNN, FATHER KILLED JORDAN DAVIS (via telephone): Oh, honestly, I don`t really think it matters at this point what you know about him and what you think about him. Everyone has made up their minds. So, I don`t think there`s anything I can input there. I`ve already said what I feel before.
PINSKY: We would like to hear from you, though. Are you crying? Is that what I`m hearing?
PINSKY: Because I`ve not heard from the family. I don`t know your perspective. I`d like to hear it.
DUNN: He`s my dad. I love him. He raised me well. He`s a good man in my eyes. He would never do something unless he absolutely had to.
PINSKY: So there are rumors about him, you know, brandishing a gun, there`s rumors of him involved with domestic violence. Is any of that true?
DUNN: Absolutely not. It`s like absolutely ridiculous that I hear these things. And you know, how would you feel when one of your beloved family members you hear reports about how they abused your family. It`s heartbreaking, ridiculous.
PINSKY: Some of my panelists have questions. Sam, you have a question for Rebecca.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I do.
SCHACHER: Going off of what Dr. Drew had just stated there actually has been a number of allegations, according to the court documents, that your father did get physically abusive with your mom. So you never witnessed that and that`s just completely untrue, those people made that up?
DUNN: No, absolutely. You know, the person who said that I was close to them as a kid, but I was a kid. You know, it was ridiculous. When I heard these -- I like I asked my mom, you know, I talked to my family. My mom was like absolutely not, you know? I`ve never witnessed it either. So --
PINSKY: Leeann, you have a question.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Rebecca, thanks for joining us tonight.
Obviously, this is a very covered trial and everything with your father. Has anybody been harassing you personally or your family?
DUNN: People on the Internet, strangers. It doesn`t matter, Twitter, Facebook.
TWEEDEN: Right, people that don`t know you are harassing you.
DUNN: Yes. They`re just spouting their nasty opinions. That`s fine. Everyone`s entitled to their own opinion, whether it be mean or not.
COOMBS: Rebecca, there was also another interview over the weekend of a man who said he was a neighbor of your father for a number of years, and he was saying that he knew your father and that your father expressed some, you know, racist opinions, that he had certain opinions about black people and Hispanic people. And a lot of people really, you know, took to that interview because they felt like that played into what happened during the trial.
Do you know this neighbor and do you have any opinion about what he said about your father?
DUNN: Yes, I do know him. And I am really shocked and really sad that he would say such things, but I wish I could tell you a story about my dad, but no, he`s not racist, not prejudice against anybody. That`s ridiculous. Like no.
I know this neighbor, and I am so hurt and like completely shocked. I can`t believe it, like I feel so betrayed. It`s ridiculous.
PINSKY: Judy, any theory as to why that guy would come forward with something like that?
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think there`s so much information right now that`s going on against him.
DUNN: Of course.
HO: And so I feel like he`s sort of adding to that.
PINSKY: Piling on.
HO: I`ve observed some things, too, and maybe this is questionable. If he had problems before, why didn`t he speak up sooner?
So, this is always my question in cases like this when people come forward once allegations have been made in court, you know, documents have been opened, why didn`t you have the courage to talk about it before if it really is the truth? So, that`s my question for this neighbor.
PINSKY: Jenny, you have a question for Rebecca?
HUTT: I do. Rebecca, did you know prior to this that your dad carried a concealed weapon?
DUNN: Yes, I did. I knew he did.
PINSKY: Did he teach you about guns? What did he say about guns?
DUNN: Of course, he always tried to teach me how to clean guns. He was always trying to get me, you know, to do the place where you shoot the clay things. He always wanted me to do it for protection.
You know, I`m a dancer, I dance and read. I wasn`t interested in guns. But, no, he was always trying to teach me safety. So funny he had a concealed weapons permit and people mistook it as a policeman`s badge.
But anyway, he taught me how to use it, and was very knowledgeable. He wanted to teach me how to use guns safely and stuff like that.
PINSKY: Rebecca, we`ll let you go in a second. But help us understand why -- what your position is why he would shoot at four teenagers and why multiple times and why would he do that?
DUNN: I honest -- OK, just my opinion, I don`t believe at the time when it was all happening, they`re teenagers first of all, I can`t really explain it, but he described the tactic that he uses to keep other people from shooting if they were going to shoot. So, I don`t know. I can`t really explain it. But he explained it all to me. So but I can`t really --
PINSKY: Judy, did you want to say something?
HO: Yes, Rebecca, bottom line, why do you personally believe your father and what he told you about this event?
DUNN: I know my dad. I know when he`s lying, I know when he`s not. He`s pretty easy to read for me. And I have seen him. Like he can`t -- we`re very close, but absolutely not. He`s a good man. He would never do something horrible. He would always do it for the right reason. He would always defend himself. And it`s a horrible messed-up situation.
PINSKY: Did you know as soon as it happened what a mess this was?
DUNN: Well, I didn`t really know at first, my uncle called me about it. I was just very confused. So --
PINSKY: Jenny, you reacted to her talking about being able to read her father`s lying?
HUTT: Yes, so I just want to know in what instances have you found him lying?
PINSKY: Because it`s interested, Rebecca, you didn`t say my father never lies. I can just tell when he lies.
DUNN: He lies about hiding things from me. And he cannot hide presents. He can`t hide any of that stuff. Like -- he lies about the -- it`s not -- it`s very easy. He doesn`t lie very much, but when he does lie, it`s very, very, very obvious.
PINSKY: One thing I think everybody can agree on with your dad`s case is everybody wishes he had never come in contact, including him, with those four kids that day.
DUNN: Of course.
PINSKY: And I do appreciate your coming on, Rebecca, and giving us your point of view.
We`re going to move on and talk about George Zimmerman and whether or not he has regrets, what he thinks now about Trayvon martin, we`ll hear from him. And later, we`re going to kick off our series all about porn with a woman who says porn saved her life and brought her closer to her family.
Be right back.
PINSKY: All right. Now, I`m back with Jenny and Ms. Ali.
You guys, I want to read you a quick tweet came to us. I want Ms. Ali to respond because I know you were listening to that last interview. "Do you think Dunn`s daughter would say anything bad about him?" From Zaid Abaas.
Ms. Ali, what are your thoughts on Rebecca Dunn?
ALI: Well, I think -- how old was she?
PINSKY: I don`t know. Can anyone in control tell me? In her early 20s. Anybody know that? They`re looking it up. I`ll tell you as soon as they get.
ALI: OK. Well --
PINSKY: Twenty-one. She`s 21.
ALI: That`s her father. Yes, 21. That`s her dad. And I don`t think we expect her to say anything bad about her father. She`s got to live with this and she`s got to still deal with him. And you know, people who have been molested by their father, they still love them. So, I`m sure she still loves him even though he shot somebody else`s child.
I want to say this, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
ALI: Jordan Davis` parents, his parents, Dr. Drew --
ALI: -- his mother and father --
ALI: I think they`re making themselves look completely ridiculous going on television talking about how they are praying for Dunn and how they forgive him, and here is a man who shot a bullet through their baby`s heart and won`t even say, I`m sorry, I didn`t mean to do it.
PINSY: I disagree. I think Jesus, Martin Luther King, a lot of important people would praise that -- maybe not Ms. Ali.
ALI: Yes. You all killed him! You all killed him! All that peace King was talking about, you killed him anyway. It doesn`t matter.
But I`m not talking about holding on to hate. I`m saying that`s very silly to get on television and not at least acknowledge the natural instincts that people would have when somebody kill their offspring.
She`s on there, I`m praying for him. I`m asking my family to pray for them. He ain`t praying for them, I`ll tell you that much.
PINSKY: That`s for sure. Let`s move on to something that`s equally disturbing to Ms. Ali. Bring in my panel.
I got still Sam, Mike, Loni, and, of course, Ms. Ali with us.
I want to show you something that Zimmerman said to "New Day" this morning. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: You wouldn`t have wound up killing Trayvon Martin if you had your way.
ZIMMERMAN: He probably wouldn`t have ended up attacking me either if I would have stayed home.
CUOMO: The victim was Trayvon Martin, you know that.
ZIMMERMAN: No, I certainly was a victim when I was having my head bashed into the concrete and my nose broken and beaten. I wouldn`t say I was not a victim.
CUOMO: Do you find yourself haunted by memories of that night?
ZIMMERMAN: I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Deep sighs from Loni and Sam.
HUTT: I just can`t --
SCHACHER: I`m so grossed out by this interview.
PINSKY: I know what Ms. Ali`s thinking.
SCHACHER: First of all, it`s absolutely vile, as Jenny just stated. I can`t believe that his takeaway after all this, after killing Trayvon Martin is that, if you listen more of the interview, that he wish he didn`t go outside that night because his life would be a whole lot easier.
OK. What about Trayvon Martin, first of all? What about all the other things that you could have done differently, like maybe not made false assumptions about Trayvon Martin, maybe not thing he was a thug because he was wearing a hoodie, maybe listening to the first responder, maybe not firing your gun? It`s absolutely pathetic that he`s playing the victim card still.
PINSKY: Mike Catherwood.
CATHERWOOD: I honestly can`t believe how fat he is. He`s such a fat man. Beyond killing Trayvon Martin, he`s had two girlfriends in the time we`ve known George Zimmerman. How can he get laid?
I have a friend who is a fireman and muscular and handsome and he can`t get -- I don`t understand.
PINSKY: I don`t understand it either.
HUTT: It`s damaged women.
CATHERWOOD: He`s so fat.
PINSKY: We`re going so far off topic.
Ms. Ali, I`m going to give you a chance to react to this next piece of tape. Chris Cuomo asked Zimmerman -- wait, wait, I know that last one would send you off. I`ll let you respond to this next one. What he regretted, what Zimmerman regretted about the night he followed Trayvon Martin. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: My life would be tremendously easier if I had stayed home.
CUOMO: If you could go back, you would have stayed home that night?
ZIMMERMAN: Certainly, yes, in hindsight, absolutely.
CUOMO: And now, as a point of clarification, you said my life would be so much easier. When you say, I wish I had stayed home that night, are you thinking about you and also Trayvon Martin?
ZIMMMERMAN: Certainly I think about them -- him. I think about my family, all the families that have been put in any type of dangerous situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, go ahead.
ALI: You know, I tried to tell you all a long time ago that this guy was a loser and was whacked. Nobody wanted to hear that then, you know.
SCHACHER: Yes, we did.
ALI: Here`s another question. How come, how come, how come between Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis we can`t have one black male juror? There must be one black man in Florida that you all don`t have a warrant on. There has to be someone that you can put on a jury.
That`s his peer. All those whites and Asians, those are not those brother`s peers. Why can`t we believe --
PINSKY: By the way, there`s 25 other states with stand your ground laws, Loni, yet we keep going back to Florida.
COOMBS: That`s right. I do have to point out the constitutional right is the jury of the peers for the defendant, the accused, not necessarily the victim, whether you feel that`s fair or not. That`s constitutional.
ALI: That`s racist right there. That`s racist right there.
PINSKY: Zimmerman has been supporting himself by selling paintings online, but he`s got bigger plans for his career. I want you to watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: What do you want to do with your life?
ZIMMERMAN: Good. I`d like to professionally be -- continue my education and hopefully become an attorney. I think that`s the best way to stop the miscarriage of justice that happened to me from happening to somebody else. I don`t think it should happen to anyone ever again, not one person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Loni, have at it.
COOMBS: As an attorney, please, no, no, do not join the profession. We do not need you as a member. It`s one more chance for him -- before all this he wanted to be a security guard, he wanted to be a police officer. Now he wants to be an attorney. And it`s all because he cloaks himself in this false sense of altruism, like I want to help people, I want to help miscarriages of justice. It`s all about him getting power and control over other people. We do not need him as an attorney.
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: The one miscarriage of justice, Dr. Drew, is the fact that Trayvon Martin lost his life as an unarmed teen at the hands of George Zimmerman wielding a gun. That`s the miscarriage of justice.
PINSKY: Mike (INAUDIBLE)
CATHERWOOD: I think he truly - I think that Loni hit it right on the head. He wanted to be a security guard. He wanted to be a cop. He will want to be an attorney. The guy is a wannabe. He`s compensating and compensating. That`s why a lot of these chicken hawks (ph) need to walk around Florida with a concealed weapon and a license to do so. It`s really said.
PINSKY: Miss Ali, let`s put these two cases to rest for the evening. Go ahead.
ALI: Well, I think that they are the representative of how the court system is caught up in repetitive error when it comes to trying to give justice to a black person. Not just our black children. Our grown black men. All of our best men are removed a out of our community because they`re in jail. They can`t get any mercy. As far as him getting 60 years, Dr. Drew, I`ve been in court and seen a black man who was dealing with drugs or a gun get 195 years. Why he can`t get 195 years? He killed a person.
PINSKY: I listened. You don`t have - you have sympathy with me when it comes to our drug laws. A lot of insanity there.
All right, there we go. We`re switching gears. We`re next going to speak about a teen bride who claims she is a serial killer responsible for dozens of murders. The question is, is she making this up, or does her past and the facts suggest that this really is a serial killer you`re looking at right now?
And later, the online drinking game where players, so to speak, are ending up dead. Don`t go away.
PINSKY: Jenny and I are back. The question here have the police caught a serial killer? This 19-year-old and her husband allegedly killed a man they had met on Craigslist. Now she claims to have killed more than 20 people. Watch this tape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Barbour and her newlywed husband are currently charged with luring a man to a meeting using Craigslist, then stabbing him to death just so they could kill someone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miranda had sent me a letter and she requested that she wanted to speak.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In a jailhouse interview, Miranda Barbour tells a Pennsylvania newspaper she has killed too many to count. "When I hit 22, I stopped counting."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said she has, you know, done this before. And I said, what`s the actual number? And she said, under a hundred.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miranda revealed she was part of a satanic cult.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said she was molested at age 4.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 19-year-old said she wasn`t sure how many people she`s killed in the last six years since she was 13 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miranda, as you sit here, do you have any remorse whatsoever? And she said, none.
PINSKY: Let`s bring back my behavior bureau, Lee Ann, Sam, and Judy, joining us Jenny Ketcham, author of "I Am Jenny," and on the phone, our human lie detector, Janine Driver, all here to discuss the feel-good story of the evening.
Judy, what are the chances that she could have made this up versus does the sort of story add up as to someone that`s a serial killer?
HO: Well, De. Drew, first if this was a 50-something year-old man with a nasty goatee and really disheveled, we`d have less of a time questioning this issue because they fit more of the stereotype. Back to whether or not she`s telling the truth. I think that there is a huge possibility that this is some kind of a line between fantasy and reality being blurred. A lot of kids, because she has this background of molest and abuse, they create this fantasy world where they have control. And they can execute and can have total power. And so maybe at some point that crossed over and she started murdering, but I really doubt that it`s over 20 and somewhere below a hundred. Where is the evidence?
SCHACHER: No, I don`t think I believe it, Dr. Drew. Only because her murder that she`s currently in jail and on trial for was done very sloppy. She did not discard the body or the evidence. I can`t imagine she would get rid of that many murders if that`s her m.o. of cleaning up the scene. But again, she did point out to investigators that she can help them locate all the bodies. So only time will tell.
PINSKY: Jenny Ketcham, you`re now in an academic circumstance studying psychology. What are they teaching you about psychopaths?
JENNY KETCHAM, AUTHOR: Well, first of all studying social work, so I am learning a lot more about the class issues that surround this than the psychological issue. However, I do think that her story would really enable her to take her power back like -- I forget her name -- was it a Jenny, too? Was saying that as a molested child she`s lost all her power. Now she`s in jail. She has no power again. How is she going to take back more power than she already felt like she lost? And she`s going to be able to exercise it in the jail cell.
I have another quick question -- is nobody talking about the fact that prostitution and escorting is still going on on Craigslist? I mean, aren`t we -- isn`t this -- what about that? Is that gone? Was that supposed to be gone?
PINSKY: No, it`s still going. We`re going to talk more about that in the next block, in fact. Jenine Driver) what do you think about this woman? What do you see?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Dr. Drew, indicative statements, we have something called statement analysis. The FBI has analyzed truthful statements and not truthful separating fact from fiction. She says, I don`t care if you believe me, her statement there, the hidden statement is believe me. Indicative of deceptive people will say, I don`t care if you think I am lying. She`s not saying, I don`t care if you think I am lying. she`s saying I don`t care if you believe me, which is indicative of someone telling the truth.
A-Rod was asked by Katie Couric, Katie Courick said A-Rod, you`ve traveled around in different leagues. Have you seen people do steroids, have you seen them take the drugs, have you seen of it or heard of it? A-Rod responded you hear things, Katie, you see things. Well, our brain is primed to tell the truth, Dr. Drew, What happens here with this potential serial killer from Craigslist is she`s not saying you her things, she`s saying I would have lured these people. I studied these people. I did this. When we say I or our or we, it`s taking ownership to the crime, so I think she could be telling the truth.
PINSKY: It`s hard to believe but people who are vulnerable biologically or genetically then have childhood sexual abuse and then get into a cult, to me it makes sense. What do you say?
ALI: I think I believe her. She obviously already killed somebody and she`s going through -- she talks -- we can`t say that all kids that are molested or all people --
PINSKY: No, no, not saying that.
ALI: Turn into killers.
PINSKY: No, no, no, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But she says she can point it out. I think it`s easy for the FBI to go to any of these places that she says you can find a body here to find out whether she`s lying or not. The number, I don`t think it matters whether it`s 22, 100 or one, it doesn`t matter if she`s serial or not. Maybe in her mind she`s serial, but I tend to believe her. Why would she come out and say it and just want to talk to somebody in the media after all this time?
PINSKY: Jenny Hutt.
HUTT: I think, Dr. Drew, you`ve taught us about sociopaths, and I think she`s a sociopath and she`s go big or go home. She likes the kill. She, yeah. I believe her.
PINSKY: The sociopaths are the people that have a certain liability in their brain. It`s a brain disorder where they really - it`s a different thing. A sociopath uses people, but psychopaths are the ones that do what this woman does. We`ll find out as the evidence unfolds.
ALI: Obviously her husband now helped her in this murder.
ALI: But we haven`t talked about -- she has a year and a half old child of a husband who is dead so now they`ll reinvestigate that to see if there`s anything suspicious, so I don`t know. Weird things there.
PINSKY: I want to get back to this story tomorrow night. And we`re going to give you -- that husband you see on the screen, I`m going to play some clips from him tomorrow. Stay tuned for that.
Next up we get into our series "Hooked: All About Porn." Begins with a woman who says she became a porn star to care for her family.
And reminder, you can find us on Instagram. Be right back.
IPNSKY: Time for our series this week "Hooked: All About Porn." Jenny and I are back with Sam, Jenny, and Jason Ellis. Joining the panel Alana Evans, she`s a married mother of three. She`s been working as an adult film actress for 16 years and has appeared in over 1,000 X-rated scenes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my.
PINSKY: And Alana, you say porn saved your life, saved your family. Please explain.
ALANA EVANS, PORN STAR: Well, we all get into the industry for different reasons, but for me, I got into the business to support my 5-year-old child. I was 22 years old at the time. And it gave me the opportunity to be with my kids, be home with them and still volunteer and spend the effort and ability that most stay-at-home moms would want to have with their kids. Not everyone is for the porn route, but for me, it worked.
PINSKY: And Jenny Ketcham, we talked about this before, although these pragmatic issues may actually be factual, there`s still a big price to be paid emotionally, no?
KETCHAM: Yes, absolutely. Well, hey, Alana, first of all. I think that, while I totally see the validity and want to give credit to your reasons for entering the pornography business, I think it`s really important to address the fact that because you were coming out of this abusive relationship, I feel like that`s part of what may have made selling sex a viable economic resource. Were you not in this really unhealthy relationship, would that have been as viable as an option for you?
EVANS: You know, Jenny, I`ll agree with you. I got into the adult industry because I was living in a terribly abusive marriage to a police officer.
EVANS: I was not allowed to go to school. I wasn`t allowed to take jobs to better myself. And I needed a way out. But because I entered the industry with, you know, a strong head on my shoulders and seeking independence, I used the business to benefit myself and my family and I didn`t let it affect me the way it definitely affects many other women. It`s not for everyone.
PINSKY: Jason, your thoughts?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think porn is awesome, but I think that what she did --
HUTT: You`re so cheap.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just had to say that, all right? Look, I like it sometimes. Leave me alone. I know I`m the evil guy in the box, whatever.
HUTT: Of course you`re not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, you`re fine.
PINSKY: That tattoo on your head (ph)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t the ultimate option, but she took it and went hard at it and made a life for herself and for her child. I commend you. I salute you. I won`t watch your films because I met you in the green room, that would be really awkward, but I salute you.
SCHACHER: I agree with Jason, because who are we to judge? It seems to work for Alana. It may not work for me and my household. But it definitely works for her, and I do think that porn can be, in moderation, a healthy tool for couples to watch together to help ignite the flame in their relationship. I mean, it`s better than the alternative of not having sex at all which is more detrimental to a marriage.
PINSKY: Jenny Ketcham -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me about it.
KETCHAM: Oh, my gosh, the alternative to having an unhealthy marriage is watching porn? I just don`t agree with that at all, first of all. I think that you can go to couples therapy. You can go to --
SCHACHER: I said in moderation.
KETCHAM: There`s so many different things that you can do aside from watching --
SCHACHER: Hold on, Jenny.
PINSKY: Sam, go ahead.
SCHACHER: Don`t just take what I said and make that a blanket statement because that`s not what I`m saying. I`m saying in moderation. Of course is the ideal to go into couples` therapy if there`s a problem in your relationship, but if you`re married for a long time and once in a while you and your husband or wife sit down and watch a porn together and it helps get you in the mood, I don`t see anything wrong with that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right on, Sam.
KETCHAM: I`m not saying that that -- I`m not saying that it is a horrible thing. And that people shouldn`t be allowed to explore in that sort of way. But I am saying that if you have an intimacy issue in your relationship, then pornography is probably not going to be the thing that really solves it.
PINSKY: Right, Jenny. Jenny Ketcham is exactly right on, but the problem is a lot of people don`t really understand what we mean when we talk about intimacy. It`s really about human connectedness, about closeness, not just about the physical acts. Thank you guys for this conversation. Jenny - Jenny Hutt any last words?
HUTT: No, I - I happen to see both side of Jennie and Sam`s argument.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do, too.
HUTT: I think if a couple has a healthy sex life and spices it up with a little porn, okay. If they`re using that as a tool to find their intimacy, it won`t work.
PINSKY: As Sam and her husband, you get too wrapped up in it, Jason.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m wrapped up in it right now just by discussing it. Do not call me after the show, I will hit on you.
PINSKY: I want it to be a much more romantic experience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It will be, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I`ve thought of it many times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, gosh, drew!
PINSKY: The deadly drinking game that`s gone viral and what you need to know about it. Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Is actually pretty dangerous. This is a social media drinking game.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just opened a little sambuca here and some wicked as well. And it`s a pint, I do believe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny, Sam, Jennie And Jason. That video is from Youtube. Necknominate (ph) is what it`s called. It`s a dangerous online drinking game. Reportedly it has just claimed its 5th victim. A 20-year- old man from Britain died after guzzling two pints of gin in a single rapid intake. Sam, you brought this thing to our attention and now it`s becoming more of a trend, more people are dying. Tell us about this.
SCHACHER: Yes, it`s very dangerous. this is peer pressure at its worst. So it originated in Australia. It is now becoming popular in the UK. Very popular amongst teens and young adults. What they do is they film themselves doing one of these drinking challenges, then they post the drinking challenge online and then nominate one of their friends to outdo them.
And the challenges can range from drinking upside down out of a toilet with liquor, to girls pounding drinks in the middle of a street or a mall wearing scantily clad clothes, or even one guy was getting beat up by his peers while slamming down shots of alcohol, and you`re right, it`s claimed five people, five people have died. For example, one young man died because he drank an entire liter of vodka in under 60 seconds.
PINSKY: Jason, it sounds like one of your old Friday nights.
ELLIS: That`s hilarious, Drew, thank you. Look, there`s a song. I can`t remember who sang it. But it goes, if you`re going to be dumb, then you got to be tough. And I think if you`re -- I still like to drink excessively, but I always kind of knew I was too good at drinking. That`s maybe unfortunate, but maybe a reason I`m still here. There`s too many people on the planet anyway. If you`re dumb enough to drink a bottle of anything --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
ELLIS: -- I`m not saying I`m happy kids are dying. I`m just saying there`s a lot of us here. If you`re going to drink yourself to death because you`re trying to beat someone on Youtube, die, go away.
PINSKY: Jenny Ketcham, I want to get to you because you`re flashing all kinds of different emotions across your face. Alcohol can kill when taking too much too quickly, that`s what people got to remember.
KETCHAM: Well, I love the idea of survival of the fittest. I mean, I think that is just horrific.
ELLIS: Thank you.
KETCHAM: But really amazing. I think it`s your fault, you`re an Aussie, right? This is where it came from. I think really what this says is where our culture is in terms of binge drinking and binge culture. And I think it`s not --
ELLIS: People have been binge drinking for centuries.
PINSKY: Yeah, but it`s really become a thing now. And it can be deadly. Be careful.
Last call is next, guys. Thank you.
PINSKY: It is time for the last call. Thank you, Jenny, thank you to our panelists, and just a reminder that RIGHT THIS MINUTE starts right this minute.