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"Loud Music" Murder Trial Verdict Provokes Outrage
Aired February 17, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. All eyes still on the courtroom in the case of murder in Jacksonville. A 45-year-old man guns down a youth when they argue over the kid`s loud music at a gas station.
After shooting the youth three times, he speeds off, never bothering to dial 911. After we obtain stunning 911 calls and secret surveillance video, in a stunning trial move, Dunn takes the stand in his own defense.
Finally, in the last 48 hours the jury hands down a verdict, but that verdict bringing down a hail of explosive outrage. We are live at the courthouse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As to count 2, guilty. Verdict as to count 3, guilty. Verdict as to count 4, guilty. Verdict as to count 5...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! Somebody`s shooting!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As to count 1, I would declare that mistried.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a bizarre story caught on tape. A man takes his girlfriend on a romantic walk, sharing their umbrella, but then throws his girl down a -- girlfriend down a manhole (INAUDIBLE) booby traps, leaving her to die, all over $16,000 he owes her. Tonight, girlfriend left to die in a manhole.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He strolls with his lover when he allegedly directs her to step on the cardboard. She falls down the 10-foot hole! And it`s all caught on tape. What happens next, shocking!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And to Sudbury (ph) suburbs, Pennsylvania, 22-year-old newlywed, the bride turns real-life female dexter (ph) caught on tape confessing she`s killed so many people just for the thrill of it, she stops counting at 22 dead bodies. But she says, I only kill bad people. Tonight, newlywed turned real-life Dexter (ph), serial killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "When I hit 22, I stopped counting."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said, What`s the annual number? And she said, Under 100.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miranda Barber (ph), a self-proclaimed satanist, says she lost county after killing 22 people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any remorse whatsoever? And she said, None.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, a 45-year-old man guns down a youth after they argue over the kid`s loud music at a gas station. After shooting him three times, he speeds off, never bothering to call 911.
The verdict watch is over. All eyes still locked on that Florida courtroom. In the last 48 hours, the jury hands down a verdict, but that verdict bringing down a hail of outrage.
We are live at the courthouse and taking your calls. With me, of course, Martin Savidge. Marty, I just can`t believe it. Now, yes, I`m glad that the jury spoke and managed to come to a verdict on shooting at the other three unarmed boys. What happened, Martin?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, you`re not alone in that disbelief. There are many in this community of Jacksonville that cannot understand how it is that a jury can find three counts of attempted murder, but on the most serious charge, murder for the death of 17-year-old Jordan Davis, who Michael Dunn admits to have killing (sic), the jury was deadlocked and a mistrial was declared. People here say, Yes, there was a conviction, but there was no justice for Jordan, Nancy.
GRACE: You know, I don`t get it. Tot mom walks free. George Zimmerman walks free. The jury`s not speaking, are they, Martin.
SAVIDGE: She has -- you know, that`s exactly the same points when I talked to protesters today. They said, you know, this comes seven months after George Zimmerman, also who admitted killing a 17-year-old black youth, was not convicted, Angela Corey the prosecutor in that case.
And now you`ve got another man who admits to killing a black teenager, and he, too, is not convicted on that crime. Instead it`s a mistrial. People believe that is not just coincidence. In the state of Florida...
GRACE: OK, Martin Savidge, you`ve been camped out at the courthouse from the get-go. I want to know the truth. The prosecution says they`re going to retry this count, this count of murder on Jordan Davis. Are they, or is it just going to disappear? After three or four months, are they going to think we don`t remember, and they`re going to take plea and run some sentence concurrent with the charges? Is that what`s going to happen?
SAVIDGE: Angela Corey said immediately after we got that mixed verdict that she would retry Michael Dunn. But many here do not believe it. One, because the first trial has been was so expensive, two, because he did receive at least 60 years he`ll be in prison. The other fact is they think that once tempers cool and emotions subside, she will back away and realize she`s not going to do it.
GRACE: With me at the courthouse, Martin Savidge. Also joining me, editor-in-chief of GlobalGrind Michael Skolnik, Matt Zarrell, Larry Elder. Also with us, Jaleel White.
First back to you, Martin Savidge. The defense managed to keep out so much evidence that this jury never knew about. For instance -- out to you, Matt Zarrell -- the fact that he had these previous wives he allegedly threatened to deport if they didn`t do what he told them to do. What do you know about it, Matt?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, we`ve spoken to a neighbor who had said that Dunn -- Dunn`s wife told him that Dunn not only did that, Nancy, but he put a gun to their head, and then he threatened to blow their head off.
GRACE: Also, the neighbor went on to say that they had observed these two previous wives -- and I don`t know their descent, I just know he apparently threatened to deport them so they`d never see their children again if they didn`t do as he wished -- but that they had been observed with bruises, black eyes. And the neighbors even had to go in and stop the domestic abuse.
ZARRELL: Yet Nancy (INAUDIBLE) gun away and he regrets giving the gun back to Michael Dunn.
GRACE: Back to Martin Savidge joining me at the courthouse. Martin, why didn`t any of the jurors wish to speak?
SAVIDGE: You know, I don`t know because they haven`t said a word since. It was certainly set up so they could. They even went to the lengths of putting up a black curtain so that it would have been possible for these jurors to go through a back hallway, no one would see them come into the room where the media was, and speak from behind a curtain. You would never know who they were, but just give us an understanding of why you couldn`t reach -- no verdict. They didn`t even do that, Nancy.
GRACE: Marty, what`s the turnaround? When is he going to be retried? Because, listen, I know what everybody`s saying. Oh, it costs too much to retry him. The guy`s already going to jail. That should be enough.
But I know, Martin, as you and I have discussed this many times. I know, as a crime victim myself, if the killer of my fiance had never gone to trial, if there had never been a verdict -- guilty or not guilty, but a verdict -- I don`t think I could live with myself.
SAVIDGE: And I think Angela Corey is very much understanding that the Davis family wants justice for their son, and this certainly was not that. She said she will meet with the family and discuss it. The family has said they want to see a retrial. Some have speculated it could be under way in as little as two months.
GRACE: Joining me right now from LA, Larry Elder, KABC radio talk show host. Larry, thank you for being with us. Reaction to the verdict.
LARRY ELDER, KABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, do I, Larry Elder, believe that the facts and the law would have supported a second degree conviction? Yes. Does it surprise me that not all 12 people believe that? No, it doesn`t. There are miscarriages of justice, Nancy. The O.J. Simpson case was a miscarriage of justice. The first...
ELDER: ... was a miscarriage of justice. The Casey Anthony trial was a miscarriage of justice. This is not. This is at least one person not believing that this defendant was in reasonable fear of his life. And we ought to give him credit. He took the stand. Most criminal defendants don`t do that.
He was a CCW (ph) holder, which meant he had to go through a background check. He had no other records that was admissible to the jury, so as far as the jury was concerned, this is a guy who reasonably believed he was in fear of his life, and at least one juror believed that. Now the...
GRACE: Can I ask you a question?
ELDER: ... state is going to retry...
ELDER: One more thing. The state...
GRACE: Why are you bringing...
ELDER: The state`s going to retry this...
GRACE: ... up that he had a license to carry a gun? Any nut on the street can get a license to carry a gun.
ELDER: You still have to undergo a background check, and it turns out people with CCWs are the least likely to offend. This is a category...
GRACE: Which proves those...
ELDER: ... of people that are very...
GRACE: ... background checks...
ELDER: They`re very law-abiding.
GRACE: ... don`t mean a hill of beans!
ELDER: One more time. If you look at the states, when people get a CCW, they are less likely to commit a crime than a non-CCW holder. So the idea that this guy is some ravenous killer was not supported by the evidence, Nancy. I`m saying that this alibi he gave of self-defense wouldn`t have worked for me. He told -- he didn`t tell it to his girlfriend. He didn`t report it to the police -- all that stuff that you mentioned. It just takes one person to buy it, and one person apparently did. That`s not an outrage.
GRACE: Nobody said to the jury, You`ve got to find he`s a -- as you said, Mr. Elder -- ravenous killer. I`ve never heard it put quite like that.
GRACE: That was not...
ELDER: The burden of proof is to find -- you have to find depravity, Nancy. They didn`t find depravity. That`s what it requires in Florida. And in most cases...
GRACE: Depravity under the law, Mr. Elder...
ELDER: ... it requires premeditation.
GRACE: ... requires a total non-recognition...
GRACE: ... of danger. It does not mean you`re an evil person stirring a witch`s brew, coming up with devilish incantations. It means that, for instance, I take an Uzi into the mall and go (INAUDIBLE) with no regard for human life. Or I hop in a Lamborghini and I drive 96 miles an hour in a residential zone. That`s a depraved or malignant heart. That`s what it is.
ELDER: You`re preaching...
GRACE: And hopping (ph) down on one knee and firing into the air with a lot of people around is a depraved heart, Larry Elder.
ELDER: You`re preaching to the choir. One more time. Do I believe that the evidence supported a second degree conviction? Yes. Do I believe that it is not unreasonable for one person to believe that the state did prove the burden beyond a reasonable doubt? That`s not an outrage.
GRACE: All right...
ELDER: ... believed that he saw a firearm.
GRACE: What about this, Elder? If this was self-defense...
GRACE: Just go with me. Let your mind go free. If this were self- defense, even an objective self-defense -- because we know those kids did not have a gun. If it were self-defense, he would have been justified at shooting the last three shots at the three boys in the car.
ELDER: No, he wouldn`t have.
GRACE: Yes, he would have!
GRACE: If it were self-defense and he believed Jordan Davis...
ELDER: Nancy, the jury...
GRACE: ... had a gun in that car, then it would have been an outright acquittal. Their verdict is inconsistent, Elder!
ELDER: The jury made a distinction. When the car pulled away, the jury felt he no longer was in reasonable fear of his life, but he kept shooting. That`s where they felt he crossed the line. All 12 of them agreed on that. But at least one did not agree...
GRACE: Let me guess...
ELDER: ... on the first part.
GRACE: I guess you don`t think there should be a retrial on count 1.
ELDER: I think they should retry him. I think the Davis family ought to be prepared, however, that the prosecution is going to figure out what they did wrong after they talk to the jurors and find out where the case was soft, but so will the defense. And the defense will counter, and the result may very well be the same. So I hope the Davis family is prepared for that. That`s all I want to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In count 2, we the jury find the defendant guilty. Count 3, we the jury find the defendant guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! Somebody`s shooting!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Count 4, we the jury find the defendant guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) in disbelief. It has not sunk in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In count 5, we the jury find the definitely guilty.
MICHAEL DUNN, SHOOTER: They attacked me. I`m the victim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As to count 1, I will declare that mistried.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: "I`m the victim"? Martin Savidge, I don`t recall, but yes, I guess that Michael Dunn actually said he`s the victim?
SAVIDGE: I don`t recall it. He has painted a picture, though...
GRACE: He did. I just heard him said it. He said it.
SAVIDGE: He feels that he was very much frightened. In fact, I think one of the lines he said was that he`s never been more frightened in his life. And that was really a major part of this defense, fear. It was driven home over and over by Michael Dunn on the stand. He was afraid. He feared. He was worried. He was scared.
And Michael Dunn on the stand did a remarkable job of making himself seem, for his size, very small, very quiet, very meek, and apparently feeling very threatened by that teen.
GRACE: Well, you know what? Now with these allegations, Marty Savidge, that he had the two wives from other countries that he threatened to deport and keep away from their children, I don`t know how mild and meek he is. And I notice every day, they dress him more and more and more suburban, like Mr. Rogers. Did you notice that every day, they had him in a new little sweater vest? It was like the Menendez brothers all over again.
We`re taking your calls. Out to Marty in California. Hi, Marty. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Two quick points. I really wonder why, after the defense opened up the character witnesses, that the state did not introduce those jail letters and all the other things that were found in his car, like the silencer and the nunchucks. And also, why did they not ask his girlfriend during the trial, What did he say to you when you got back in the car?
GRACE: Let`s take that. Let`s bring it on. With me, unleash the lawyers. Mike Gottlieb, Brian Claypool, Mo Ivory, attorney and radio personality, Larry Elder. Also with me, Michael Skolnik, editor-in-chief of GlobalGrind.
Out to you, Mo.
MO IVORY, ATTORNEY AND RADIO PERSONALITY: Yes, you know, listen, I don`t think we need any more information about Michael Dunn that we don`t already know is a part of...
GRACE: But Mo, the question is, they bring on -- the only way you can bring on bad reputation -- you all know this -- is if the defense first brings on good character.
GRACE: And it`s like a vampire. You open the door...
IVORY: And there it is.
GRACE: ... and the state can come in with bad character. You know, why didn`t they bring in his nunchucks and his fake silencer and his full magazine and -- it doesn`t have to be a conviction -- out to Marty in California -- a bad act can come in, as well, if it can be proven, Mo.
IVORY: Absolutely. And I think that is exactly where Angela Corey`s office went completely wrong. Why when that door was opened -- we`re hearing this about the wives and all this -- all of that needs to be in!
GRACE: Oh, listen, we knew about it, Mo. We knew about it. Out to you, Mr. Skolnik -- Michael Skolnik with GlobalGrind. Weigh in.
MICHAEL SKOLNIK, GLOBALGRIND: Yes, I think what`s important here is the behavior of Michael Dunn, behavior of the Davis and McBath (ph) family. They have been nothing but kind and compassionate, even in the press conference after the fact saying, We should pray for Michael Dunn. We should pray for this man, and his own attorney at a press conference saying that this is not about a black or white thing, this is about a subculture of thugs.
This is a subculture of a gentleman who shot a car of unarmed children. That is a thug!
GRACE: Joining me right now, Jaleel White, actor, writer. Mr. White, thank you for being with us. Weigh in.
JALEEL WHITE, ACTOR/WRITER: You know, I really think I can just offer the citizen`s perspective, to be quite honest. I mean, you guys have so much more information about the case.
But just from an overview, I have a problem with this coming out of Florida constantly. And I think just the "stand your ground" law as it`s presented to jurors is creating a whole lot of confusion, to be quite honest, in their assessment these cases.
I mean, Florida is becoming a hotbed. It`s just really turning into, like, almost the Middle East of America, and it`s really just showing that, you know, we`re the states of America, but we`re certainly not united because the fact of the matter is, Michael Dunn couldn`t even exist here in Los Angeles.
He couldn`t exist in New York. You know, New York put Plaxico Burress in jail for shooting himself, this just wouldn`t even happen in other parts of America where it`s just -- gun control, there`s just a greater understanding. And even, to be quite honest, in a place like Texas, where road rage just doesn`t even go on.
GRACE: All eyes remain on a Florida courthouse as the jury hands down a verdict. Yes, the verdict watch is over, but that verdict bringing down a hailstorm of outrage.
Joining me, Martin Savidge. Martin, one good thing about the verdict is that at least they didn`t come back with a lesser, such as voluntary manslaughter, or even involuntary manslaughter, which would have been abysmal. At least the state has the chance to retry on the death of Jordan Davis.
SAVIDGE: They do, indeed. And as you say, though, we have yet to see if that is really going to go through. Those are the first words that came out of Angela Corey`s mouth, but we all know that as tempers cool, things could change. We also know that the defense is saying they plan to appeal the ruling that`s already handed down, and they say that if Angela Corey does decide to retry this, they`re going to ask for a change of venue.
GRACE: Joining me right now, special guest Lexi Allaway, a very dear friend of Jordan Davis`s. Lexi, thank you for being with us.
LEXI ALLAWAY, FRIEND OF JORDAN DAVIS: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Lexi, when -- let`s just go back. When you first heard that Jordan had been shot, what was your reaction?
ALLAWAY: I think my reaction was just shock. I honestly -- I think that I -- I was discussing with my sister earlier today -- I think that I actually collapsed in tears. It seemed so absolutely unreal to me.
GRACE: You guys knew each other because you grew up together, you lived down the street from him for quite a long time. And you know, as you grow older you`ll see the friends you make while you`re growing up, they somehow end up being your lifelong friends. I don`t understand that, but in elementary, in your neighborhood and high school and college, those are your friends forever.
I want to hear about Jordan. I want to find out who he was. You know, the jury never got to hear how much he wanted to join the Marines, about he was just like crazy about football, would watch it every weekend, how he loved to play basketball. They never got to hear what a loving son he was, nothing. He was just a name on an indictment.
ALLAWAY: Right. And that is exactly my feelings, is that he -- to me was -- he was a friend. He was a joy and full of life and humor, and he was genuinely caring to the people that he encountered and -- to me and my family. And to me, it`s very difficult to see such news coverage and press about a person that was -- had a very personal and close place to my heart and to my family. It seems -- it seems injust that the reputation is so surface-level, in a way.
GRACE: Back to you, Martin Savidge. Martin, so the jury hid behind a black cloth when they left?
SAVIDGE: Well, they had the opportunity to speak behind a black cloth, but they decided to go out the back door and disappear. You know, I will point out, just what you have - as that young lady, that last guest, and the point you`ve made, Nancy. I`m not an attorney and I`m not a prosecutor, but I will say that just watching this trial, you needed to hear more about Jordan Davis. There should have been more presented to that jury as to who this young man was, what his dreams were, what he wanted to do with his life, where he was headed. There is no way that young man should just die at a gas station and be a name on a document.
GRACE: You know, Martin, and I talked to you about this before, but you know I have a son and a daughter. And when I look at that picture of him getting his tie put on for the first time, I remember the first time I ever put a tie on John David, my son. And it was at Easter, and the thought of him dying with some jerk like Michael Dunn at a parking lot, gunning him down over nothing, and then the jury hanging? I mean, no offense to the jury, but to hide behind a black cloth and walk out the back door? Unleash the lawyers. Mo Ivory, Michael Gottlieb, Brian Claypool. Also with me, Larry Elder and Michael Skolnik. OK. Larry Elder, the jury never heard anything about Jordan Davis. Even when they heard good character about Dunn, the shooter, they never heard a word about Jordan Davis. He was just a name on an indictment.
LARRY ELDER, WNBC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: And Nancy, the segment that you did with the young friend of Jordan Davis was very powerful and very moving and quite irrelevant to the issue of whether Michael Dunn .
GRACE: I hope there`s not a but in that sentence.
ELDER: is guilty or innocent of the crime of murdering Jordan Davis. What the jury has to deal with is not whether or not Jordan Davis had aspirations. I`m sure he did. That it`s not probative, that`s why the judge excludes evidence like this, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes, it is probative.
ELDER: And while it`s very powerful, it`s very powerful. It`s very emotional.
GRACE: Because it was - he`s not the kind of kid driving around with a double-barreled shotgun at a gas station. No! He wanted to join the Marines. He played basketball every week and he watched football with his father. That little girl you just saw, he was her first kiss. He was not out that night looking for trouble, and he died sucking in his own blood on the floor of a parking lot at a gas station. And, you know, when you say something like, it`s not relevant, it`s relevant to me, and there are ways to get it into evidence.
ELDER: It would be as relevant as my finding out whether or not the four teenagers had ever used racial slurs, had ever said anything anti-white, had ever been hanging around with people who`d ever done anything against the white person. It is irrelevant about what happened on that day during that encounter.
ELDER: That`s what the judge had to focus on.
GRACE: OK, Mo, you`re in charge.
ELDER: That`s what the jury had to focus on.
MO IVORY, ATTORNEY RADIO PERSONALITY (ph): Larry, Larry, Larry, what you`re saying is completely wrong. The defense brought in, opened up the door to character evidence when they brought that witness to say that meant Michael Dunn was a peaceful man. So, was that relevant? If that`s relevant that he was peaceful, then it`s absolutely relevant for Jordan Davis, to know what his plans were for the future and to humanize him. So what are you saying?
ELDER: Your quarrel is not with me, your quarrel is with the prosecution for not getting the evidence that you think is relevant in.
GRACE: No, but you said it wasn`t probative. It is absolutely probative.
ELDER: Obviously, the judge did not feel this evidence was relevant and didn`t put it in.
ELDER: So you quarrel with the prosecution, with the judge, not with me.
GRACE: Wait. Lexi Allaway, the friend of Jordan Davis, wants to be heard. Lexie, I`m sorry that you`re hearing all this. I`m telling you, that`s the way a courtroom is. I want to hear your thoughts.
LEXI ALLAWAY: To me it is just - it is hard to hear. It is -- it`s stunning and it`s -- it`s discouraging because he was so much more than this, and his standard for living was so much higher than what is being represented and what is being offered for him. And in my heart .
GRACE: Is it true that Jordan Davis was your very first kiss?
ALLAWAY: Yes. Yes. Real kiss.
GRACE: I guess, Larry Elder, you would say that`s irrelevant. Unleash the lawyers, Gottlieb, Claypool, Elder is with us, Skolnik. You know, Michael Skolnik, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Michael Gottlieb.
GRACE: Yes, please do.
ELDER: Nancy, it is relevant that that was the first kiss. I don`t understand why you`re bringing this up.
GRACE: Because it`s .
ELDER: You`re acting like Michael Dunn ..
GRACE: to dehumanize Jordan Davis. And I don`t agree with that.
ELDER: Nancy, Michael Dunn is not walking away. Michael Dunn is not walking away. He faces 60 years in prison and is going to be retried to this count. He`s not going to go away. He`s 45 years old, he`s going to die in prison.
GRACE: It`s the principle, Elder. Even if he`s retried on murder one, and even if the judge .
ELDER: This is not Emmett Till - this is not Emmett Till.
GRACE: It is the point.
ELDER: This isn`t Emmett Till. This guy is going down for at least 60 years. This isn`t Emmett Till for 60 years. This isn`t something .
IVORY: He`s going down for 60 years on the other charges.
ELDER: He is not walking away.
IVORY: There is no - He`s not going down for anything on killing Jordan Davis.
ELDER: He will die in prison. He will die in prison.
GRACE: OK, Claypool.
ELDER: He will die in prison.
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Larry, Larry, what if nobody else was in that truck? Nobody else was in that truck. Under your theory, Dunn walks away. He`s a freeman. So, what kind of message does that send to the next person that pools into a parking lot and hears loud music and gets upset? So there is the wrong message here..
ELDER: The message is - the message is that when you`re a prosecutor, you`d better have your ducks in a row, and it is up to the defense - up to the prosecution .
CLAYPOOL: Racial .
ELDER: As to prove that self-defense was not there.
GRACE: OK, Claypool.
CLAYPOOL: Racial animus .
GRACE: What do you have to add?
CLAYPOOL: Racial animus was an issue - racial animus should have been brought for by the prosecution.
ELDER: Was in charge with it - was the charge .
GRACE: Guys, hold on. I want to hear Brian Claypool. Go, Claypool.
CLAYPOOL: Larry, the prosecution should have brought in evidence of racial animus. The jury needed to see this case through the eyes of both Jordan Davis and then they need to see the bad side of Michael Dunn.
GRACE: Michael Gottlieb.
ELDER: Why do you suppose they didn`t?
GRACE: Hold on. I want to hear Gottlieb.
MICHAEL GOTTLIEB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the issue of good character - bad character is not relevant to the guilt case. It`s going to hurt and it`s going to sting that Jordan Davis was a nice young man. At sentencing. And that`s where the prosecution needs to play those cards to get the maximum sentence that they can.
GRACE: Hold on - you know, the sentencing is mandatory.
GOTTLIEB: It`s absolutely not relevant to the guilt case.
GRACE: 20? You know, there is more than one way, as I said.
GOTTLIEB: It`s a mandatory minimum, Nancy, that`s a mandatory minimum sentence, not a maximum.
GRACE: Yes. I know. 20 to 30. I understand the law very well. But all of us lawyers are trying to pull the wall over the viewers` eyes because there are ways to get in the victim`s reputation, if it`s through identifying a picture, and if it`s through - the last time you saw them.
GOTTLIEB: And Nancy .
GRACE: There are million ways to get the jury to know who Jordan Davis is.
ELDER: If you`re getting in in some sort of cock-eyed way, it will be reversed on appeal. That`s why the judges don`t like to do that.
GRACE: They - no, it won`t. No, it won`t. It has got to be materials to the case, and it has got to be something that but for that would have caused a different outcome to the case.
ELDER: And you`re handling - you`re handling an appellate lawyer grounds to argue that they should reverse on appeal?
CLAYPOOL: Nancy, may I ..
CLAYTON: I really think the big problem here, Larry, you ought to think about this. We have a system of grab bag justice now in Florida. Let`s overcharge with all these other different charges and then the jury is left doing a grab bag at the end saying, oh, I don`t think we can decide on first degree, but we`ll get these others.
GRACE: OK, let`s stop. This is what we know. We know the state has promised to retry this case and we will stand by the courthouse and wait and watch for justice for Jordan Davis.
When we come back, a stunning and bizarre story caught on tape. He takes his girlfriend on a romantic walk, even sharing the umbrella, but then throws her down a manhole he booby-trapped, leaving her to die.
Tonight, a stunning and bizarre story caught on tape. He takes his girlfriend on a romantic walk, sharing an umbrella, but then throws her down a manhole he booby-trapped, leaving her to die all over the $16,000 he owes her. Tonight girlfriend left to die in a manhole.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A woman out for a romantic stroll with her boyfriend when suddenly, after shielding her with an umbrella, she falls into a manhole. But take a look at this. The boyfriend doesn`t call for help. He locks her in the manhole, and then adds wood on top of the hole for good measure. The woman stuck in the manhole for over two days, desperately trying to survive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s video from YouTube. OK. Please run that again. Just start at the beginning. Take it in full. Take me down. I want to see this. OK, he booby-traps. Start at the - there he is, he`s booby-trapping it. Here they come, love is great. Oh! He pushed her down with his foot. OK, I can`t wait to hear somebody try to say it was an accident. Locks the manhole. Look! It`s pouring rain. Oh. Oh. He - let me just tell you, he is definitely going to hell. OK, out to you, Brett Larson, investigative reporter. What do we know? Was this truly over a $16,000 debt?
BRETT LARSON: Yeah. He owes the girlfriend a $16,000 debt. And apparently that was enough for him to booby-trap a manhole. I mean it`s almost unbelievable when you watch this footage. You see him come by earlier, he sets it up so that she`s going to fall into it. And then when you`re first seeing it, you think, she looks like she maybe just tripped a little bit, but I think he`s going to help her. He doesn`t help her. He shoves her and her umbrella down over $16,000.
GRACE: There you see leaving her down a booby-trapped manhole left to die. He covers the top, locks it in place and walks away. And he`s also caught ahead of time booby-trapping it, holding the flashlight in his mouth. Out to Clark Goldband. What do we know?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Here`s what`s so shocking, Nancy. When you first see the footage, it looks like the romantic stroll. And you see the umbrella, but you see that umbrella is used to obfuscate what is about to happen. Now, how deep was this whole? Let`s quantify it. Ten feet. And you know what that is. That`s the height of an NBA basketball loop - now imagine that down. As you see, she`s thrown inside, she`s stuck there for more than two and a half days.
GRACE: Leaving her to die in a watery tomb. Unleash the lawyers! With me radio personality and lawyer Mo Ivory. Out of Fort Lauderdale, Mike Gottlieb, defense attorney. Out of L.A., Brian Claypool. First to you, Gottlieb. What`s your defense? I mean he`s so busted, how can you get out of that?
CLAYPOOL: This is a tough one. I mean he`s clearly caught right in the act. The only thing you can say is maybe he went temporarily insane. You know, there`s really - this is a very difficult situation. That`s the only thing I can think of, is temporary insanity on this one, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, you know what - I got to give you credit. At least you said it with a straight face.
GRACE: To Dr. Michelle Dupree, medical examiner and forensic pathologist. What would her initial injuries be from falling that far down a manhole?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, M.D. MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, that could be varied. That could be fractures - she would certainly have bruises, abrasions, scrapes. She`s going to have a fractured skull, she can have an injured back. Really meaning numerous things could have happened from falling that distance into a manhole, not to mention scraping at the sides of her body, just being stuck.
GRACE: Being stuck there, left to die in a watery tomb. Brian Claypool, Michael Gottlieb, Mo Ivory. OK, out to you, Mo.
IVORY: Oh, my gosh, Nancy, forget about the legalities in this, because he`s going down. But for the ladies, be careful who you date. Don`t lend money and have some survival skills. That is why she was able to survive.
GRACE: Claypool, look at the video one more time. I don`t know if you can see it, but look, let me see the video. See, no-no, no. When they`re coming along right there, running along in the rain. Oh, we love -- oh! Ow! Was that your foot on my face?
CLAYPOOL: Nancy .
GRACE: Nancy. And then he even put the umbrella down there. No evidence left behind. All right, Claypool.
CLAYPOOL: I have to admit .
GRACE: Work your magic.
CLAYPOOL: I have to admit - well, she does resemble a little bit one of my old girlfriends, but I promise you I have never done that.
GRACE: That`s the defense, you`ve never done it?
CLAYPOOL: That`s not - that`s not -- my dating is not a defense in the case. I`d be in jail.
GRACE: All right. Great case in - We`re going to let Brian Claypool stew in his own juices for a moment. Cason, temporary insanity is not going to work because you see him just before making the booby trap.
GREG CASON, PH.D., PSYCHIATRIST: Absolutely, Nancy. I think we have to consider the fact that he might be a gambling addict. And he was - he was trying to get - his girlfriend might have wanted that $16,000.
GRACE: Did you really say he`s addicted to gambling? Did you say that?
CASON: No, but you`ve got to look at.
GRACE: You did?
CASON: Hold on. Gambling addicts are - they see money the way drug addicts see drugs. And so, he probably was trying to get the money -- this girl wanted the money from him, so he plotted to kill her. This was a heinous (inaudible) act.
GRACE: I wish you hadn`t even said that. Claypool and Gottlieb - like charm in the water. Everybody, when we come back, 22-year-old newlywed bride turns real life female Dexter caught on tape, confessing she`s killed so many people just for the thrill of it, she stopped counting at 22 dead bodies.
GRACE: To the Pennsylvania suburbs. A 22-year-old bride turns real life female Dexter and it`s all caught on tape confessing she has killed so many people just for the thrill of it, she stopped counting at 22 dead bodies. But when she was talking, she said, I only killed bad people. Tonight, newlywed turned real life Dexter serial killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s killed at least 22 people in the last six years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She now claims to be a serial killer with so many victims she can`t remember them all. "When I hit 22, I stopped counting."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s killed people in Alaska, Texas, North Carolina and California as part of a Satanic Cult.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said that if she got out, she would do it again.
GRACE: Well, that didn`t help anything as far as the bond goes. If I get out, I`ll do it again. With me is a special guest tonight, Francis Scarcella, the reporter with "The Daily Item" who actually interviewed the female Dexter, the newlywed bride killer who stopped counting dead bodies at number 22.
Francis Scarcella, thank you for being with us. I am totally fascinated like I would be with a rattlesnake in a cage. I don`t want to bring it home with me, but I want to look at it. What did you learn about her?
FRANCIS SCARCELLA, REPORTER, "THE DAILY ITEM": Well, I`ve got to be honest with you. In the short - in the hour that I had, you think you learn a lot, but are you really sure?
GRACE: What was your impression of her? You met with her. What stood out? What did she tell you?
SCARCELLA: What happened is she sent me a letter. She reached out and sent the letter and said she wanted to talk. This story has been an ongoing story since November 11th. Death of the Troy Laferrara (ph), and she he reached out and said she wanted to talk, so it took a little bit of time, but I got in.
GRACE: And what was your impression of her? What impression did she want you to have of her?
SCARCELLA: She was very calm. She was very meek, she was very mild, she was very well spoken and she was very matter of fact.
SCARCELLA: She said she has, you know, done this before. And I said, what`s the actual number? And she said, under a hundred. She`s very meek, very mild, very low voice. She never hesitated once. She never gave the impression of it was a rehearsal. I said, Miranda .
GRACE: Meek and mild? She killed 22 people that we know of. She said she quit counting at 22. With me Francis Scarcella. You interviewed her. Exactly, how was it that she murdered all of her victims?
SCARCELLA: She said that she likes knives. That was her thing. She said she liked knives. She never get into exactly what every single time, but she said that her big fascination was with knives.
GRACE: OK. Unleash the lawyers. Mo Ivory, Michael Gottlieb, Brian Claypool. Now, Ivory, how many times can we give her the death penalty?
IVORY: I mean obviously so far 22.
GRACE: Just once.
IVORY: Yeah, just one time. And I got to say can we really believe that she did this 22 times? Until we find the bodies? Because she seems a little bit like maybe ..
GRACE: Gottlieb, is this what your clients do to you - they snow you like she tried to snow Francis Scarcella acting meek and mild? And then you fall for it. So what happens?
GOTTLIEB: Nancy, I don`t think she`s not snowing anybody. I think you`re missing it. This girl is a sexual vigilante. She was -- this girl was molested as a child and she`s acting out. And that`s why she`s bragging about it and being brat.
GRACE: Acting out and murdering .
GOTTLIEB: She is righting the wrong.
GRACE: That`s 50 people, allegedly.
GOTTLIEB: I`m not saying it`s right. I`m not saying it`s right, but she`s righting the wrong that was done to her. She was abused and she`s .
GRACE: All these 22 people - were they the ones that molested her? You know, this is way beyond acting out. And don`t, don`t, don`t, don`t make all the molestation victims in this country hop in that same pot. No, no. That`s not OK. Don`t say she was molested. Uh-uh. All of them don`t want to be in that pot with her, the serial killer. Thanks.
Let`s stop, let`s stop and remember American hero Marine Corporal Gregory Stultz, 22, Brazil, Indiana, Sea Service Deployment Medal, Global War on Terrorism Medal. National Defense Medal. Loved football and wrestling. Parents Bill and Kim, stepfather Kevin, two brothers, four sisters. Gregory Stultz, American hero. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friends.