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Is Teen Bride a Serial Killer?; Michael Dunn: From Behind Bars
Aired February 18, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, hear from the man whose teen wife says she is a serial killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I trust in my wife. You don`t marry someone that you don`t love. You don`t marry someone that you don`t trust with all your heart.
PINSKY: Then, Michael Dunn speaks from behind bars.
MICHAEL DUNN: I`m the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) victim here. I was the one who`s victimized.
PINSKY: Plus, reality TV star deaf. I`ll tell you what I think about this pastor and others who fool around with poisonous snakes.
And our series, "All About Porn, Hooked" continues with America`s oldest, active porn star.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co host this evening is Sirius XM Radio`s Jenny Hutt.
And coming up, we have Michael Dunn talking to us from prison.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes.
PINSKY: First -- oh, yes -- Miranda Barbour says she is a serial killer and that she stopped counting at 22 victims.
HUTT: Yes, it gets to be so many numbers and so many people that you just kind of forget.
PINSKY: The question is, should we believe her? Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police believe Barbour and her newlywed husband used Craigslist companions ad to lure 42-year-old Troy LaFerrara to his death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In a jailhouse interview, Miranda Barbour tells a Pennsylvania newspaper she has killed too many to count.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miranda had sent me a letter and requested that she wanted to speak.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I hit 22, I stopped counting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told the reporter that she started killing at the age of 13 when became a member of a satanic cult.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I feel it is time to get all of this out. I don`t care if people believe me."
PINSKY: Have the police caught a serial killer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, we are contacting various state and federal agencies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has a year and a half old child of a husband who is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said she was molested at age 4.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think I believe her. I mean, she obviously already killed somebody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one was capable of killing that many people. She just wants attention.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really doubt it is over 20 and somewhere below 100.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most chilling thing she said was if she ever gets out, she would do it again.
PINSKY: We will hear from her husband and exclusively a woman who knew her when they were younger. That will be shortly.
But, first, let`s bring our panel together.
Joining us: Eboni Williams, attorney and talk show radio host, Kaleb Nation, host of his own YouTube channel, KalebNation.com, his new website, millionhitssecret.com, Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, and Segun Oduolowu, social commentator.
Segun, I haven`t heard from you yet on this case. What are you thinking?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Dr. Drew, it frightens me. And there`s not very much that really does.
If what she says is true, if she can pinpoint where the bodies are buried, then we have to take it seriously and really look at a satanic cult -- here`s the thing: if she is just doing this for fun, this is the wrong type of fun and it says a lot about society that this girl would dream it up to get attention. But if she is telling the truth, if she is a serial killer, with more than 22 people, you know, in the ground like some siren from a Greek tragedy luring them to their death via Craigslist, then we should be frightened. We really should.
PINSKY: I`m not sure Craigslist was in the Greek literature.
Eboni, you want to comment on this?
EBONI WILLIAMS, ATTORNEY: Absolutely. That`s a huge if, though, Segun. I mean, at this point, there have been several days since she`s come out with this alleged 22 victim or more count, and not a single law enforcement has been able to pinpoint or corroborate any of those details. And who I feel for the people in those jurisdictions, we`re talking about Alaska, Texas, North Carolina and California, places she alleged the killings took place who have a false sense of hope who feel they may have closure involving the death of their loved ones, which quite frankly might be false hope.
PINSKY: And, Anahita, you feel bad enough for the victims, but for the defense attorney because she keeps doing interviews.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: You read my mind. She is following in Jodi Arias` footsteps. I think she has the Jodi Arias syndrome.
PINSKY: But maybe she is just as guilty.
KALEB NATION, KALEBNATION.COM: You mean a killer?
SEDAGHATFAR: Hold on. Now, I totally agree with you. I think she should not be giving media interviews and is actually a defense attorney`s worst nightmare, because she is going and she is giving this media interview when she is on the hook for first degree murder. She is facing the death penalty and then she goes and confesses to the killing and she says she is going to do it again. It totally reminds me of Jodi Arias.
And this makes it so difficult for the defense attorneys who are there trying to save her life. They are filing motions trying to spare her from the death penalty and she is over here confessing. And that confession is gong to be used against her.
PINSKY: Segun, I find it refreshing that somebody being honest about something they`ve done.
ODUOLOWU: I can`t believe I heard somebody say it is a shame for the defense attorneys that a killer admits to killing. Like that`s the bad part? Because that`s what she said.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s exactly what I said, because that is the job of the defense attorney. Do you not believe in the Constitution?
ODUOLOWU: No, I do. I do believe in the constitution. But --
SEDAGHATFAR: Hold on. So, when you go and you throw your defense attorney under the bus, someone that`s working hard to give you your constitutional rights, that`s not necessarily a good thing.
ODUOLOWU: So, we have a mentally deranged killer who admits to killing. We know one person she killed.
ODUOLOWU: Right. She admits to killing others --
SEDAGHATFAR: Is your suggestion that she should not have a defense, that she should give media interview saying I`m guilty, I did it, without letting her attorneys do the job they are hired for?
ODUOLOWU: It does save us the taxpayer dollars when you have a murderer admitting to murder. I mean, gosh, that feels like Christmas in February. We`ve got a murder with no trial.
PINSKY: I want to go to Kaleb. I know a lot of action swirling around you but go ahead.
NATION: I actually agree with her. I don`t think that she is actually completely guilty on this case. I think she is being manipulated to say this.
And I say this because I did a lot of research on this woman. I found her Facebook and I read through, found everything about this woman. I read and I looked at photos.
I know it`s Facebook because there are details that are personal that go back to like five years. On November 11th was the murder, OK? Look at this timeline. November 11th was the murder, December 3rd they were arrested.
Between those dates she actually posted on her Facebook that her wedding ring, the week after the murder and afterwards, she wishes everyone a happy Thanksgiving and posts photos with her kid over -- until the time when she is arrested. All of this stuff, keeping that in mind and throwing everything else about her claiming she is Satanist and suddenly claiming she`s killed 20 people of these murders that she`s so professionally committed, that she wasn`t caught after these years, even though she is only 19 now. It doesn`t make sense to me.
So, she`s either lying --
ODUOLOWU: Could the crazy killer just be a crazy killer?
NATION: But at the same time with her defense, at the same time, her going out and giving all these interviews to the media, if she is being manipulated, it`s not giving her defense a good chance to actually defend her, which is what they need to do, because she may not know what is best for her. She may be defending like her husband, whenever she may have only had something to do with it. And she`s --
ODUOLOWU: Only partly guilty?
PINSKY: Eboni, go ahead. You`re trying to rein in.
WILLIAMS: Exactly. That`s the point. That`s where you are absolutely wrong, Segun. This is the prosecutor`s job. It is not the defendant`s job to hand the case to the prosecution on a silver platter. That`s essentially Anahita`s point. That`s what she is doing by giving interviews.
Whether it`s valid or not, it determines the very nature of our adversarial process and that`s constitutionally sacred.
ODUOLOWU: You stole that from me. We talk about that in the green room.
ODUOLOWU: I know you stole that from me.
WILLIAMS: I think I might have heard something about that in law school.
PINSKY: She is after all a mom. She is a mom. And I guess her child deserves to have the mom defended, I guess.
SEDAGHATFAR: I wanted to clarify I`m not saying she is not guilty of committing this particular crime. What I`m saying she is entitled to a presumption of innocence. And even if she did confess --
PINSKY: Let`s hear what she says. Here`s what she says about her victims, quote, "I would lure these people in, I study them, I learn them and became their friend. I did this to people who did bad things and didn`t deserve to be here anymore."
Jenny, I don`t know. It sounds --
HUTT: Dr. Drew, she says she started this at 13. Like at my house at 13, you have a bar mitzvah and not a killing. But what I don`t get is at 13, you`re really going to know who is stealing, who isn`t, who you are luring and who is good and who isn`t? So, that`s the weird thing. But she is freaky, Dr. Drew. So, could be. It could be.
ODUOLOWU: Jenny, there are parts in the world where they have teen soldiers and young people who do commit murders. What I`m saying is age is not -- I`m saying age is not -- age should not be a mitigating factor.
PINSKY: Hold on. Now, I leave it here. Speaking of age, other than all of the conversation about bar mitzvahs and (INAUDIBLE), it`s awesome, I do have a woman exclusively who did know this alleged murderer when they were younger. And she has thoughts and she will either corroborate or refute what we heard here.
And later on, grandpa, the porn star. That`s right. We have America`s oldest porn performer. He is -- yes, from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Miranda said she killed 22 people. Do you believe her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plead the fifth.
REPORTER: Do you think she is being honest?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is to say?
REPORTER: Do you think she is lying that she killed 22 people?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t say that.
REPORTER: Do you think she is telling the truth?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t put words in my mouth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Very confusing.
Jenny and I are back. I`ve got a tweet for you, Jenny. This is from (INAUDIBLE). "Agree with Anahita. She is a Jodi Arias clone."
HUTT: Well, I`ll tell you, Dr. Drew. There is something interesting about her. Just before she married her current husband, she purportedly used his semen to masturbate. I`m not sure why.
PINSKY: I`m not sure why I need to know that. I am not getting the image out of my head soon. Thanks for sharing that, nonetheless.
HUTT: You`re welcome.
PINSKY: A lot of weird stuff.
So, let`s bring in the behavior bureau.
Jillian Barberie, KABC radio host, Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox," Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks network, who had great appreciation for Jenny (INAUDIBLE). She`s dying. And Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal".
Wendy, what are your thoughts on this young lady?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: On the semen? The masturbation?
PINSKY: Well, no, I don`t need more of that. I had enough of that.
WALSH: I have a lot to say about that.
PINSKY: If you do, go right ahead. Enjoy.
WALSH: Jenny and I were having fun tweeting. Because did you know married women have more orgasms than single women? But that`s another story.
Anyway, let`s talk about this woman. I think she is lying, Dr. Drew. I think she`s a narcissist. I think she`s a sociopath. I think she`s making this up, and I think her and her little three-week-old hubby there are happy that all the cameras are shining on them.
PINSKY: Either way, Sam, they`re saying yes. They`re probably happy the cameras are there whether she did it or not.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think they are loving the attention.
PINSKY: Jodi Arias, though, she did it and she loved it, as well.
SCHACHER: Yes. I mean, but you can see the husband coming out of the vehicle and he says right there, "My time to shine". That`s an insane. You are being on trial for murder and you are saying, it`s my time to shine.
But I do think that she is lying. And, again, like I stated last night, the murder that she is in jail for was done anything but meticulously. I don`t think she could have committed those other murders. I just don`t.
PINSKY: I want to bring in an old friend of Miranda Barbour. We`re going to call her Jackie. She can sort of sort out the history and whether or not what she is saying about the cult and abuse and whatnot is accurate.
So, thank you, Jackie for joining us. Did what we are reading and hearing about this young lady, did she share any of these things with you?
"JACKIE", FRIEND OF MIRANDA BARBOUR (via telephone): Hi.
When I met her around three years ago she confided in me that at 13, she had joined a gang, she didn`t call it a cult. She had stated being raped by multiple men at once. And she wrote a lot of dark poetry that was usually reflecting on these sorts of events, which I read some of.
PINSKY: Did you feel badly for her? Did you feel sad for her as you got to know her?
JACKIE: Yes, very. She was quiet and introverted. And I guess I was kind of drawn to her because I thought that we could relate on some of our emotional issues.
PINSKY: But you never saw her act out violently or have violent fantasies or anything like that?
JACKIE: I never saw that, no.
PINSKY: OK. Just wondering if anyone on the panel has a question for Jackie.
Jillian, go ahead.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, TV & RADIO PERSONALITY: Jackie, you said you could relate. I`m assuming that you might have been a victim of molestation yourself, as a lot of us are. How did you interpret that to take it to the next level? Like obviously you haven`t, I haven`t, did you feel she might have taken it to the next level? If so, why would you have not gone to authorities?
PINSKY: Wait, Jillian, I want to make sure. You are asking, that you are sharing your own experience, Jillian`s experience, about feeling aggressive? Is that what you are saying? And when you say the next level?
BARBERIE: Well, of course. It you are a victim of molestation, you don`t feel aggressive as a child. You feel aggressive as an adult.
PINSKY: Got it.
BARBERIE: But there is something that stops you from acting on that aggression. Obviously, and it`s common sense.
So, my point is to her -- what made you, as a child, like think there was something different about her actions?
PINSKY: So the question is, Jackie, did you think there was anything different about your friend, about Miranda?
JACKIE: Well, no. I guess I didn`t notice anything different. I personally haven`t actually experienced rape. It was something different that I could relate to her on, but I don`t know --
BARBERIE: Can you share with us?
PINSKY: I talked to Jackie before going to air and I promised we wouldn`t give self-disclosure stuff. So, we`ll just sort of leave it at that.
Jackie, thanks for at least corroborating some of that information with us.
I`m going to let Jackie go.
But, Jillian, at least we do know, at least from what Jackie said, that there was some kind of sexual abuse. There was a gang or cult or something involved here.
Danine, does that make it less likely to you that she is lying?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I don`t believe her for one minute. I think that this girl has always been part of dysfunction as far as her wanting to join a gang, her wanting to be part of this cult -- all of these things, I haven`t heard anything about her family. So, I don`t know what type of family structure she`s come from. But I know that sometimes people tell lies and embellish things in order to get into custody because it`s a place that they feel safe and secure and protected.
When I worked at juvenile hall, there were kids who wanted to be in juvenile hall because it was the only place that they were safe. I feel like this girl has not been safe her entire life, and she is probably telling a bunch of lies in order to get herself somewhere where she could stay --
WALSH: I agree.
PINSKY: Who said that?
PINSKY: Jillian, do you agree with that? Or do you feel that -- see, I feel that this woman is telling the truth.
BARBERIE: Absolutely. I think because she is a girl, we tend to think she couldn`t be privy. No, I think she was subjected to a lot of horrific things at a very young age, who comes out and says all of this, if you haven`t been involved --
PINSKY: Yes, and the other thing, just because you are a woman or young woman, if you have guys heard of a serial killer up in Canada, Karl Homolka --
BARBERIE: Oh my -- Dr. Drew, don`t even start me. She killed her sister. She killed -- absolutely.
MANETTE: None of this makes sense.
SCHACHER: Right. I don`t think it makes sense.
PINSKY: Jillian, what? She killed her sister?
BARBERIE: She killed her sister, Tammy, who was 15 at the time. She gave her --
PINSKY: This is Karla Homolka here. This is a young woman who killed dozens of people.
BARBERIE: She killed Kristin French and her sister, Tammy. She killed two girls that were 14 and 15, dumped their bodies in my hometown of Burlington, Niagara Falls. Her and her boyfriend chopped them up. This girl lives with three children now.
She sold state evidence --
BARBERIE: Shame on Canada for letting her go.
PINSKY: Are these pictures of her we`re looking at? Producers, is that correct?
These are home videos. This is crazy. This does not look like a serial killer anymore than the 19 year old.
SCHACHER: I was meticulous.
They were disposing the body. That woman that we are talking about --
PINSKY: We haven`t seen anything yet.
Wendy, go ahead.
WALSH: Where are the bodies? Dr. Drew, when I hear 22 murders and no bodies, I get a little nervous. Here is why. I want you to understand we are all connected to people.
Now, yes, there are Jane Does and John Smiths who are lying in morgues and nobody can find. There is no family looking for them.
But those are the minority. There was a great article in "Atlantic Magazine" last year about a Craigslist killer who targeted these sort of roaming free range middle age men that didn`t seem to have family.
But guess what? They always had somebody who tracked them down even if it was a close housekeeper, it was a son from a prior marriage. Someone went looking for them. These 22 people, no bodies, no identities and nobody looking for them? I don`t know.
PINSKY: Jenny, help settle the score with me.
HUTT: Yes, I think that there is not a specific one size fits all look for a serial killer, Dr. Drew. I happen to think there`s some truth to this story. I know she doesn`t look it and we are all saying maybe she is nutty or whatever. I think she did it. She is uber crazy.
PINSKY: OK. So, Jillian is -- three against three here. Three think she did and three don`t.
PINSKY: I want to show you quick tape of after the murder, the husband defended this young woman on camera. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I trust in my wife. You don`t marry someone that you don`t love. You don`t marry someone you don`t trust with all your heart. I believe everything she said and told the police. I do not believe this was malicious whatsoever. I believe that she was attacked and that under those circumstances, she took the necessary measures to defend herself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Danine, he says that he was the one orchestrating these trysts, these liaisons as his business venture for his young wife. But there`s no sex involved, by the way.
MANETTE: I`m not saying that women can`t be serial killers. I just don`t think she is one of them. I think if she has killed 22 people, she did it on a video game. I honestly do.
HUTT: Why do you say that?
MANETTE: It can be proven.
PINSKY: Well, it will be proven.
MANETTE: It was so messy.
SCHACHER: It was very sloppy.
PINSKY: Jillian, finish it up here.
BARBARIE: Dr. Drew, I`m just going to say, this Karla Homolka, OK? Serial killer, beautiful girl, married Paul Bernardo --
BARBERIE: Stop, stop. It doesn`t matter. You said she doesn`t look like a serial killer.
What does a serial killer look like?
This girl killed her sister, this girl killed Tammy, her sister, and she`s killed Kristin French. You guys, you look at a girl and you think she can`t be --
SCHACHER: That`s not what we`re saying.
PINSKY: It`s where we are leaving it. We are leaving it. This is a story, very intense interest. If there are bodies found the score will be settled one way or the other.
WALSH: Show us the bodies.
PINSKY: Before we go out a quick tweet from (INAUDIBLE). I don`t know if you guys want to put this on the screen. Probably not. "Watching the semen report on Dr. Drew live." Great.
Thanks, Jenny. Thank you for that.
Next up, the man who killed a teen over loud music speaks to us from prison.
And later, what are snakes doing in church services? What is this all about? We`re going to get into that and the people follow these guys after this. Don`t go away.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny.
And now, life for loud music killer Michael Dunn is not going to get easier, especially now that phone recordings are available, revealing what he has been saying from jail. They`re out and we got them.
Jenny, listen to this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In newly released jailhouse calls, you hear the man who shot and killed 17-year-old Jordan Davis.
MICHAEL DUNN: I am the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) victim here. I was the one who was victimized. They attacked me. I`m the victim.
REBECCA DUNN, DUNN`S DAUGHTER: He was a good man in my eyes. He would never do something unless he absolutely has to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dunn complains to his finance about being housed alone.
MICHAEL DUNN: I guess it would be better than being in a room with them animals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The inmates are up on what`s going on with the world. I`m sure that the black gang members. I mean, you`ve got the black family, the black gangster disciples, they`re going to be waiting for him. They`ll take this guy up.
PINSKY: Eboni, Kaleb, Anahita and Segun are back.
Segun, your thoughts on what that guy was just saying?
ODUOLOWU: Well, which guy, the horrible murderer that`s upset that he is in jail, or the guy who said that the black gang members in prison are going to go after him?
I mean, when black people go to prison -- I`m sure they watch their back for skinheads and Nazis that are also locked up. I mean, prison seems to be a battle for turf.
I think anybody who is feeling any type of remorse or possible sympathy for this man that he was attacked, his words sort of hang him out to dry. I mean, he sounds like an unrepentant bigot. And as I`ve always stated, I can`t stop a person from being a bigot, but this faulty law that arms certain bigots and gives them free range to open fire into a car full of unarmed teenagers and then claims he is the victim has to be done away with.
PINSKY: And, Eboni, he uses -- Segun says he`s a bigot. The question is, is he a racist? What do you say?
WILLIAMS: Well, I think that that`s a very strong silver bullet, Dr. Drew. When we talk about the term racism, it`s been diluted in our society so much, it`s been misused and over-applied. So, I`m very specific when I use it. Is this guy clearly indicating some racial prejudice that undermines probably the cause of his actions on that night? Absolutely.
WILLIAMS: But I`m very careful on that term.
I will say this, though, Dr. Drew. That conversation, that phone call is very telling when it comes to the psyche and the mindset and motive of this gentleman. And I am actually very surprised that these tapes were released, because we have to remember, another trial is forthcoming on this first degree murder. And so, this is going to affect the potential jury pool in this case.
PINSKY: You know what is upset, is poor Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: I`m always upset. Yes. Well, Dr. Drew, actually, I think that he did sound very arrogant. He didn`t show much remorse in those tapes.
SEDAGHATFAR: That is going to be a problem for him if he is put in general population. That`s also going to be a problem for him if they do retry him and he takes the stand again, because he did. He came across very arrogant. He didn`t show remorse. That`s what you need to do.
When you are a defendant and you`re taking the stand in your own murder trial, you have to show remorse, because even if you feel the killing was justified, that you acted in self defense, you need to show you are sad. You killed somebody. So, I think that worked against him when he took the stand.
PINSKY: Hang on, Segun, hold on. I spoke exclusively to Michael Dunn`s 21-year-old daughter. And she told me about her dad`s so-called tactic and why she believes his story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REBECCA DUNN: She describes a tactic that he uses to keep other people from shooting if they were going to shoot. I know my dad. I know when he is lying and I know when he is not. He lies about like hiding things from me. Like he cannot hide presents. You know, it`s very easy. He doesn`t lie very much but when he does lie it is very, very, very obvious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jenny, you remember that yesterday?
HUTT: I do remember that, Dr. Drew. But to add to everyone is saying, he doesn`t show remorse because he has no remorse, Dr. Drew. He does think he was victimized. He calls himself in another clip like a rape victim that he was wearing a short skirt by asking the guys to turn down their music. He`s totally diluted.
PINSKY: Caleb, what do you say?
KALEB NATION, @KALEBNATION: Dr. Drew, it`s absolutely ridiculous. He needs to learn to quiet himself down because everything he`s saying is still being used against him and he`s just digging himself a deeper hole. I actually believe his daughter. You can tell whenever he`s lying. And that`s why he has three attempted murder convictions right now, because we can see through the lies. We can tell what`s going on with this guy. And, I just think he needs to be quiet --
EBONI WILLIAMS, EBONIWILLIAMS.COM: Yes. The thing is, Kaleb, respectfully, whether his daughter is telling the truth or not doesn`t even matter, because at the end of the day, it`s an objective standpoint that the jurors are being asked to consider here. Were his actions reasonable? Not whether or not Michael Dunn believed, you know, believe what he was saying or believed that he was being right. It`s whether that`s a reasonable action and I submit it`s not.
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Question really quickly, can we all --
ODUOLOWU: Can we stop complaining about --
ODUOLOWU: I`m sorry, Anahita. Go ahead.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you. This is his daughter. At the end of the day, of course, you love your father. You want to believe that he is being truthful and he`s innocent. So, what I think is just so terrible is when I read that she was getting death threats, OK? So, shame on everyone threatening this poor girl. If anything, she`s a victim of her own father`s --
PINSKY: And Segun, Anahita beat you to the shame on you.
ODUOLOWU: Well, no, it`s just --
SEDAGHATFAR: Shame on you.
ODUOLOWU: I can`t believe that we`re saying that, you know, shame on -- well, shame on the people that are sending the daughter death threats. That`s absolutely horrible. But to say that she -- there were four kids that were shot at. One kid lost his life.
SEDAGHATFAR: That doesn`t mean she can`t be a victim, too.
ODUOLOWU: No, no. I`m not saying that she can`t be.
ODUOLOWU: But let`s not lose sight -- let`s not lose focus and lose sight of the fact that this man is unrepented because he`s a murderer. And he`s in jail because he`s a murderer.
SEDAGHATFAR: There can be more than one victim.
PINSKY: Yes. I want to show the people how this -- what`s trending on Twitter right now. This is it. #dangerous Black kids. It`s a series of photos and captions like this from @Ronda Ali (ph). "The street name is Baby Lou like most dangerous Black kids. He`s wearing his baggy clothes and intimidating hoodie. There he is, a dangerous Black kid right there." That sort of shines a bright light on how sad this while --
ODUOLOWU: But Dr. Drew, can I say something? What makes me threatening? Is it the tone of my voice?
PINSKY: The bow tie.
ODUOLOWU: Or the tone of my --
ODUOLOWU: Are you afraid of what I`m saying?
PINSKY: It`s the checkered shirt, I think, or the bow tie. I`m not sure which.
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s the bow tie, for sure.
HUTT: It`s the whole Segun.
SEDAGHATFAR: And it`s the fact that -- Segun, you have to focus on the facts of the case, OK? This wasn`t tried as a hate crime. So, although, yes, I`ve always said we need to have a frank discussion of the role race plays in our criminal justice system, but this wasn`t a hate crime. Race doesn`t come in. I think we need to look at the fact.
ODUOLOWU: You don`t think race comes in when a White guy kills a Black kid and shoots at fore unarmed teens?
PINSKY: Got to leave it. Next up, we`re going to go to God and the bible and snakes. And I`ll tell you what I think about a preacher who is handling a serpent. There he is. And of course, guess what snakes do, they kill you.
And later, a boy with a history of serious mental illness is charged with killing his mother. Could her death have been prevented? Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Using venomous snakes as part of their service. Why? They point to the New Testament, the gospel of Mark, chapter 16 verse 18. It stated in part, "They shall take up serpents." Grabbing a rattle snake and shaking it with abandon, almost daring the serpent to sink its teeth into their skin and God anoints them. They have an obligation to do this and that God will protect them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny and the "Behavior Bureau," Jillian, Wendy, Sam, and Danine. Jenny, you try to talk there?
HUTT: I just have. This is like to me child abuse, Dr. Drew, that these kids are with dangerous snakes. Believe what you want to believe, but the dangerous snake aspect of it shouldn`t be a part of it.
PINSKY: It`s very similar to people not getting medical care for their kids because faith will heal them, this kind of thing. We`re talking about churches that use snakes as part of their worship. A Kentucky pastor died over the weekend when, oh, bitten by a rattle snake. Imagine that. And then he refused medical treatment. His son will be preaching this weekend with the very snake that killed his father. Sam, you want to comment?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Oh my gosh! OK. Yes. It`s sad that this man died, of course. But it`s just sheer stupidity. I don`t get it. They`re taking the bible way too literal. And as Jenny stated, it`s very dangerous and it`s irresponsible of him as the pastor and the leader of congregation to subject everybody else in that church to the poisonous snakes.
And I have to say, I feel bad for the snake. If you watch it in the video -- isn`t asked to be there and you`ve seen the footage that it is bopping around all around. If I was that snake, I`d bite his ass (ph), too.
PINSKY: Wendy, let`s analyze Sam, for a second --
PINSKY: -- in the pastor anymore.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: She`s gone past animal rights and animal welfare. She`s in love with those snakes. Listen, Dr. Drew, can I please educate some people in America about a really important word? And that word is metaphor. There are many metaphors in all kinds of biblical teaching and all kinds of religious teaching, because people at the time, religious leaders spoke in parables, remember those words, parables, metaphors, symbols to explain feelings.
Do you think Eve, for instance, handed him that poisonous apple? No. She handed him knowledge from the tree of knowledge as we re-evolving, OK? I`m going to get attacked on Twitter.
WALSH: But I`m just telling you that we didn`t actually pick up snakes. That`s how people die.
PINSKY: And Jillian, you`re nodding your head. St. Augustine felt that the allegorical interpretation was the most challenging.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, here`s the deal. You know, I agree with Sam. I`m an animal lover, but I`m adult in that congregation. I`m like, there`s a man up there handling a snake. I`m out of here.
BARBERIE: I`m an adult. He`s an adult. God`s will, OK. Chomp (ph). You mess with the bull, you get the horns. You mess with the snake, you get the fangs and you get the venom. And that`s the bottom line. like, we`re all adults here. When you put a child where, you know, your religion says we don`t want help with the cancer, we don`t want -- then you are responsible for their death. This guy was an adult.
He chose this life. He was bitten. He said it`s God`s will. Guess what, it was God`s will. It was his time. Sorry.
PINSKY: It`s god`s will that we should have treatment for cancers and infections, Danine, and that`s -- why not take advantage that. And by the way, in the bible, it didn`t say it has to be poisonous snakes and they have to bite you.
DANINE MANETTE, AUTHOR, "ULTIMATE BETRAYAL": Dr. Drew, I am a Christian, a believer. I`m a follower of Christ. And, I do see that this is the type of thing that pushes people away from organized religions because this looks like it`s ludicrous and it makes no sense. And I do -- I Pray every day and I`m thankful that I have been given good common sense.
And while I`m also praying for healing, I`m also praying for a good doctor. So, I don`t think that those things need to be in concert. I think --
PINSKY: To bring it back to St. Augustine again --
PINSKY: -- he said that things that are not based on currently available knowledge and wisdom cause the believers to appear to be withering into superstition -- Sam.
SCHACHER: Yes. Dr. Drew, question to you or to Wendy. What is it about these people that you think attracts them to this certain type of congregation?
PINSKY: Wendy, go ahead.
WALSH: OK. Well, what happens is these leaders usually have a big degree of narcissism. And they believe their own stuff --
PINSKY: Charismatic leaders.
WALSH: Charismatic leaders, let`s call them, OK?
WALSH: So, they believe their own stuff, if you will. And people who are kind of either insecure themselves or raised with a kind of authoritarian parenting where they had to look for all the rules inside of themselves instead of outside of themselves will blindly follow these kinds of narcissists because they believe in it so we must believe it. So, we`ll trust them.
PINSKY: Be careful with authoritarian parenting. Jenny, I see you scratching your head like --
HUTT: I just -- well, yes. I mean, the whole thing is mind boggling. I feel the worst of it -- as a mother, I feel bad for the children who are brought up in this because they don`t have a chance it seems like.
PINSKY: All right. Well, thank you, panel.
Next up, we`re going to speak to a decorated war veteran, a grandfather who also happens to be America`s oldest performing porn star. He is here for an exclusive interview.
And later, we will hear from a boy who is charged with bludgeoning his mother to death. There he is. We finally get to see him. Don`t go away.
PINSKY: Time for our series, "Hooked: All About Porn." Jenny and I are back with Wendy, Sam, and Anahita. Joining us is 73-year-old Dave Cummings. He`s a grandfather, decorated war veteran, and he`s an active porn star. He appeared in X-rated films like "Every Granny Has a Fantasy" and "Senior Stimulation".
Dave, you are the -- producers had to have those words come out of my mouth. Dave, you are America`s oldest active porn star. My question is, how did you get involved in this?
DAVE CUMMINGS, AMERICA`S OLDEST ACTIVE PORN STAR: Actually, I got involved through the swinging world where a cable television station was doing a series about swinging and how difficult it was for the single guys. So, I was the make believe single guy. That got me on to a set where a couple is doing amateur films. The guy couldn`t do the important thing at the very end that needed to be done so I was drafted to do that. And a month later, I`m in "The Devil in Miss Jones Part Five." I`ll never be in the right place (ph).
PINSKY: He`s viral, he`s healthy, Anahita. Come on now.
SEDAGHATFAR: I`m sorry. With all due respect, I understand that you served this country. And I commend you for that. But, you`re a grandfather. So, really, what kind of example are you sending to your grandchildren? That`s a rhetorical question. But my real question for you is, what do you want to be most remembered for? Your service to this country or the fact that you are making porn films, I won`t even say the names, the titles, I think it`s so disgusting.
PINSKY: "Senior stimulation." Our producers insist that I say the titles.
SEDAGHATFAR: What do you think you`ll be most remembered for?
CUMMINGS: You know, I don`t care what anybody thinks about me doing porn. I do care about the 25-1/2 years I spent in the service including time in Vietnam as a unit commander during the Ted (ph) offensive. I care about looking out for veterans like we now do. I belong to a group called the Patriot Guard Riders where we meet all the angel flights coming into San Diego with the wounded as well as deceased soldiers.
PINSKY: Jenny, you want to follow on here.
HUTT: I do. I just have a question. Is your last name really Cummings or is that your porn name?
CUMMINGS: Jenny, that`s a stage name.
PINSKY: Thank you, Dave.
HUTT: OK. Just checking.
PINSKY: Wendy, I wonder if some of the stuff he saw during the Ted offensive is affecting, you know, some of the choices he makes now?
WALSH: What? OK. Can I get in there and defend him, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Please, go ahead.
WALSH: It`s absolutely defensible. OK. We need to be talking about two different subjects here. One is addiction to porn which is a whole different daily week (ph) than what we`re talking about. Anybody has a right to make porn. It helps plenty of long-term monogamous relationships stay exciting and stay together.
I think he has a right in his whole lifespan to make as much porn as he wants. I think it`s fabulous. But a porn addiction is something different.
SEDAGHATFAR: Everyone has a right. No one is saying he doesn`t have a legal right. This is a free country. He fought for our freedom.
WALSH: But it also helps plenty of marriages. You haven`t been in a long-term marriage. You haven`t needed to watch sexy videos yet.
PINSKY: Sam brings it up every time. Don`t worry --
PINSKY: We started this yesterday. So --
WALSH: It`s like I`m not -- you know, I`m not going to say all alcohol is bad just because there are alcoholics out there.
WALSH: The drug that porn can become is also breaking down plenty of other relationships.
PINSKY: Yes. That is right. I got a great website, by the way. And people feel they`re getting out of control with pornography. It`s sash.net, Society for the Advance Sexual Health, SASH.net. There are sort of screening instruments there. You can sort of check off to see if, indeed, you meet criteria for sexual addiction.
Although, it`s not a diagnosis in the sense that it`s in the DSM5. Trust me, it`s a construct that if you`re suffering from can be helpful to you. Dave, last words. I got to go to break. Go ahead.
CUMMINGS: You know, there`s a lot of concern right now whether really there is an addiction to porn versus --
PINSKY: Well, I understand, but I`m just saying as a construct, of course, there are underlying issues there as well. But as a construct, it can really be helpful. The people that represented on that website are very thoughtful professionals. So, we`ll have to leave it right there.
Got to hear next from the boy who was charged in his mother`s grizzly murder. Reminder, you can find us anytime on Instagram @DrDrewHLN. We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: We have an update from last week. Sixteen-year-old Brad George has been charged with first degree murder as an adult now in the death of his mother. There he is. He allegedly bashed the woman who had adopted him in the head with a dumbbell. He talked and lied through his -- I mean, lied and lied and lied to a local TV station just hours before his arrest. You got to see this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need to see pictures of the house because I remember with the house looked like before I left for school and I went to school and I came home and the door was open. And her car was home. That never happens. It`s like 15 degrees outside, and the door is wide open. Called the house phone and no one was answering. Then I called 911. She always knew what was best for us. I don`t know who could have done this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anahita, this guy`s got a long history of severe mental illness, but because he covered this all up and seemed so premeditated, you don`t care about that.
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, no. of course, I do. And I --
PINSKY: You don`t care about the fact that he has all this years of mental illness.
PINSKY: -- who looked right but killed her sister and other people.
SEDAGHATFAR: I care about both. I was saying he looks so cute and innocent. It`s hard to believe he was capable of this. And I see exactly where this is going. It`s going to go with a not guilty by reason of insanity defense because we know he`s mentally off. It`s been documented. But it`s really not east, because he has to be able to prove it`s a very high burden.
He has to prove that at the time of the killing, he didn`t know the difference between right and wrong.
PINSKY: And look at all this stuff.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. And I think the facts suggest --
PINSKY: Exactly -- had these ideations, Wendy, of his mom with blood coming out of her mouth. Should that matter?
WALSH: Well, it should matter because, Dr. Drew, at the end of the day, as much you know how much compassion I have for people who have mental illnesses, but, I also weigh it against who is a threat to society. Who could can possibly hurt my children someday? This guy needs to be locked up forever.
SCHACHER: And Dr. Drew, you know what I heard was really telling? When he told the police that he had to break in to his mom`s room when she was sleeping. She obviously barricaded the room.
PINSKY: -- please don`t resist getting -- where they need to be to be safe for themselves. Everybody else, "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: It is time for the "Last Call." I kept my panel assembled. I threw off a couple of tweets to them to see how they response. Put the first one up here. This is from John Anderson. "The idea that porn is healthy is crazy. It can and will destroy marriages." Wendy and Sam, the porn lovers.
SCHACHER: If you are in a very healthy relationship and have a healthy sex life, an open communication, then I think it`s OK to watch porn once in a while.
PINSKY: Of course. Wendy, we agree. Yes?
WALSH: I agree. Just don`t get addicted to it and don`t let it replace your love life. Let it enhance it.
PINSKY: That`s right. And again, go to SASH if it`s getting out of control or if you love control. It`s not enjoyable anymore and you still can`t stop -- lost of control is the hallmark (ph).
Next tweet, let`s put this one up. This is from a name I can`t quite read. And it says, "Got to love the news. Never would I have thought to have heard Dr. Drew HLN say senior stimulation.
PINSKY: -- porn star, swinger turn porn star on the bottom there. So, I just want to share that moment with you guys. Thank you for being here. And the producers, especially for putting those words in my mouth. But be that as it may, it actually is a topic that it will continue to be covered all week. And Wendy brought up an interesting part about it, which is it can get out of control.
If it does get out of control, although, it isn`t a diagnosable condition and Mr. Cummings, that`s his name, right --
PINSKY: Mr. Cummings wanted to take issue. It was a diagnosis. Check out the website. I assure you you`ll see, but when it does get out of control, it can be a very problematic issue.
And "Right This Minute" starts right this minute.