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Confessed Serial Killer`s Secrets; Outrage: Confederate Flag License Plates; Swastika Carved into Teen`s Face

Aired February 20, 2014 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, friends of self- proclaimed serial killer speak. Hear their confessions about the girl who says she`s murdered more than 20 people.

Then, a mom`s emotional plea for her brain-dead daughter. She`ll tell us how the child is doing.

Then, teens carve a swastika into a kid`s head. Cops say the accused have a reason. Ms. Ali is here to weigh in on that.

And Georgia`s new Confederate license plates.

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.

My co-host is Sirius XM Radio`s Jenny Hutt.

And coming up, a second juror in the Michael Dunn murder case comes forward, and we will hear from her.

But first, Miranda Barbour. She claims she`s a serial killer. Her father, Jenny, her own father, says she lives in a fantasy world. We have one of her friends here with us. We`re trying to track down another one to talk about her. They`ll be with us in a minute.

But first, take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are serial killers going to be the new reality stars?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s some sort of a teenage serial thrill killer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Craigslist thrill kill.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Killed him for the thrill of it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Barbour and her husband had only been married three weeks before they were accused of killing this Pennsylvania man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says she has, you know, done this before, and I said, what`s the actual number? And she said under a hundred.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 19-year-old said she wasn`t sure how many people she has killed in the last six years since she was 13 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had tried to kill other individuals and failed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said she would pinpoint on a map where these people are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she`s a serial killer, she is like the worst serial killer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did allegedly kill this one person, so she is a murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had stated being raped by multiple men at once.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s involved in Satanism.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said she was molested at age 4.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most chilling thing she said to me was if she ever getting out, she`d do it again.


PINSKY: Joining us to discuss, Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at, Lynn Berry, HLN host, and Jillian Barberie, KABC Radio host.

Lynn, you first. Miranda`s father is now talking about his daughter and what`s he telling us? Is it clarifying what`s going on here? Is she lying? Is she not lying? What does he say?

LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: I think it basically tells us everything we need to know. Because if a mother and a father are willing to come out and say such inflammatory things about their own daughter, I really don`t know what else tells you that story.

He calls her a liar, manipulative, that she was a heroin addict, that she actually went in and out of treatment and she would convince doctors to let her out of treatment when she wasn`t in a place where she should have been.

PINSKY: Well, that`s common.

BERRY: Her mother saying that she live in a fantasy world, that she made things up in her own mind, that she lived this world in her head. And I think that`s what it seems is happening here.

She likely is not going for an insanity plea, in my opinion. I think that this is a woman that in her head created herself as a celebrity serial killer and wants to go down in history as that person because of this narcissism.

PINSKY: Isn`t the dad now on record as saying that he thinks she should get the death penalty for what she`s known to have done or alleged to have done.

BERRY: And to be there to watch her die and hold the victim`s widow`s hands to watch her die.

PINSKY: Jenny, what`s going on here? Your reaction to that?

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: That`s amazing when a parent is so sure that his child could be capable of this level of evil and atrocity, Dr. Drew. I mean, come on.

PINSKY: Now, here`s -- I`m having an interesting reaction here. Show me the panel, everybody.

OK. Now, Jillian, I`m going to go to you first. I`m going to clarify something. Because someone has been abused does not make them a murderer. They`re actually more likely to bring stuff on themselves.

But I love my two attorneys sitting there like, mm-hmm, we`ll see about this. You guys are jumping all over this woman, but we know better. I`m going to talk about that in a second.

But, first, Jillian, my point about it being unfair to generalize to other abuse survivors.

JILLIAN BARBERIE, KABC RADIO: Oh, my gosh. It so is. Obviously, there`s a very problematic past. For the fact of whether she killed one or killed 20 or killed a hundred, we know she`s capable of murder.

I think it`s very interesting to point out that the detectives in these states that she`s claimed that she`s murdered people have said, we don`t have any missing persons, we don`t have any unsolved murders. So, it could be a case of her wanting to become infamous.

But the bottom line is she did stab this man. So, whether it`s one or 22, she`s a murderer.

PINSKY: And her dad says she is and the mom says she`s in fantasy world.

Mark, what do you say?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: I`m not buying any of her rhetoric. Listen, we know from O.J. Simpson`s case, the murder case, there were more than a dozen people who claimed they killed Nicole Brown Simpson. There are people out there, either of mental disorder, defects in character, whatever the hell you`re behavior bureau wants to throw out there, that cause them to say things like this. OK?

I`m not buying it. Let me say this, she has no risk of saying that she killed someone, of getting charged with those offenses unless there`s - - I`m going Latin on you, corpus delicti. Evidence of that crime taking place so that they can then marry that with her statements. She`s not going to be charged with any of those things.

PINSKY: And, Anahita, delectable corpses or not, there was going to drive -- and I`m surprised Mark didn`t bring this up, it must drive you crazy. I know it drives you crazy. She keeps talking to the press, and so does the boyfriend.

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Exactly. And I always say Jodi Arias was a defense attorney`s worst nightmare, I think she takes the cake.

But, Dr. Drew, I`m actually torn about the -- I`m sorry, the father speaking out against his daughter, because I respect the fact that he`s not making any excuses for her and he`s calling her out on her lies. That`s one thing. But to say that you want to watch your daughter die if she gets the death penalty.

HUTT: He hates her.

SEDAGHATFAR: I think that`s not very -- that`s cold. That`s not very father-like.

PINSKY: It gave me a pause. I know Mark wants me to assemble a behavior bureau, so I will do that.

But it gave me pause that perhaps he played some role in what we`re seeing here, who this woman is. I just think -- I don`t blame the parents. I don`t like blaming a parent, but that`s interesting.

Now, here`s what I want to do. I want to begin a conversation with a friend of Miranda`s. Her name is Ronnie. She was friends with Miranda in high school. And then we`re going to bring Ronnie over to the behavior bureau as well.

So, Ronnie, let me ask you some basic simple questions here. Do you think Miranda made all this stuff up?

RONNIE, FORMER FRIEND OF MIRANDA BARBOUR (via telephone): Oh, yes, absolutely.

PINSKY: OK. Stop there, stop right there. Since you guys -- I want to give the panel a chance to ask Ronnie a couple questions.

Mark, you have anything for her?

EIGLARSH: Well, has she ever lied about other things? I mean, typically, there`s a pattern there. They don`t just start doing bizarre behavior, once in their life. I`m guessing there must have been something before.

PINSKY: Yes. Ronnie?

RONNIE: Yes, I can`t really pinpoint any particular things since it was quite a while ago that I had last hung out with her, but the way she was, it just seems that she was the average, you know, 14-year-old girl that hung out with the older kids that would make up all of these crazy stories just so she would be cool.

PINSKY: Interesting.

One last question. Jillian, then we`ve got to go.

BARBERIE: Well, she claimed to have killed someone at 13. I don`t know how many 13-year-old girls could kill someone then remove a body. So, it seemed a little farfetched. But did you -- did she ever show -- are you surprised that she`s at least committed one murder?

RONNIE: Yes, that was quite a shock that she actually committed a murder, just the whole -- a bunch of people I have an absolutely hard time believing.

PINSKY: And it makes -- Ronnie, I want you to think about something as we move across the break to assemble a behavior bureau, whether or not a boyfriend who is part of this, maybe he`s the person that held sway over her, somebody that`s that suggestible if they`re living in a fantasy world, I wonder if he`s really more of the problem than she in all this. I want you to think about that.

Thank you panel. I`m going to bring that behavior bureau together in just a second.

Later, a group of teens that allegedly kidnap and torture a classmate, and then carve a swastika in his forehead. Hate crime?

Got a lot coming up. We got a lot tonight to get over. So, don`t go away. We`ll be right back.



JACKIE: She confided in me that at 13 she had joined a gang.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s very meek, very mild, very -- she`s very low voice. She never hesitated once.

JACKIE: She was quiet and introverted.


PINSKY: Jenny, I`ve got a tweet from our last segment. Dylan Beam says if you look in the eyes of this girl she gives off that pure evil vibe. Her eyes give off rage.

But, Jenny, that does not make her a serial killer. That makes her an abuse survivor and she murdered a guy. We know that.

HUTT: Right. Or somebody who could be angry. Look, a lot of people have rage in their eyes, Dr. Drew, they don`t all kill. But she did kill.


PINSKY: I`m going to say something funny, but I won`t.

HUTT: Oh, goodness.

PINSKY: Wait, let`s bring a panel up here. We`ve got Jillian Barberie. I`ve got Wendy Walsh. Jillian wants to ring in here. I`ve got Jennie Ketcham and I`ve got Tiffanie Davis Henry.

Let me give you guys` credentials. Wendy is the author of "The 30-Day Love Detox", Jennie, let`s put her book up there, "I Am Jennie" is Jennie Ketcham`s book, and, of course, Tiffanie Davis Henry is psychotherapist and HLN contributor.

Jillian, you want to ring in here already. Go ahead.

BARBERIE: Dr. Drew, I know you`re really paternal and your first instinct is to be, like, protective. It`s interesting to me. Before we went to break, you said maybe it`s more of the boyfriend/husband.


BARBERIE: And I feel like -- do you think that innately that females aren`t as capable as some of the evil that men are because they are?

PINSKY: Men are generally more aggressive. That`s generally true.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: The data is so clear, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Wendy, go ahead.

WALSH: Yes, the data is so clear. It is so rare to have this kind of -- if you`re imagining it -- a black widow kind of experience, where women are the aggressors. Women are --

BARBERIE: Karla Homolka.

PINSKY: Well, that`s what I want to say -- put Karla`s picture up here.

HUTT: Evil.

PINSKY: There are these cases of women who get deeply involved in this stuff, and when they do, it gets pretty bad. But it`s unusual. There`s Karla Homolka.

HUTT: She`s evil.

PINSKY: She killed people, her own sister even in Canada, right?

BARBERIE: Murdered her sister, murdered Leslie Mahaffey, Kristin French, ruined the family`s lives, kept them in cages like real life "Silence of the Lambs", sold her husband up the river, and then they found the tape of her and her involvement was just as bad.

She`s free. The Canadian government, shame on you, she`s living in the islands and has mothered three children of her own. Shameful.

PINSKY: But that`s the craziness. Tiffanie, we look at her and go, she`s not capable of that. That`s our sort of bias, don`t you think?

BARBERIE: Watch the tapes.


TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: It`s a very hard story to believe. She -- if what she is saying is true, at 13, I don`t know how many of us at 13 were smart enough to get away with so many of these types of crimes. So, that in and of itself is hard for me to believe.

Also, she was in and out of treatment facilities according to her parents from her issues. I think that what makes more sense is she did have these fantasies, these delusions that were so vivid that she believed they were real and that`s what she`s reporting. She probably reported that to her partner who thought that because she thought they were so real, that they were real and convinced him to go along.

PINSKY: Jennie Ketcham, you`re trying to get in on something here. Go ahead.

JENNIE KETCHAM, AUTHOR: Yes. I mean, Drew, I think that this girl has so much extended trauma that she`s never dealt with, that she created this fantasy world and is using that to keep from dealing with the trauma she experienced in her past.

PINSKY: That`s interesting.

KETCHAM: So, I don`t necessarily believe she`s done any of these things, but I think as long as she continues to keep the focus and us all talking about whether she`s a serial killer, she doesn`t have to deal with the fact that she`s been brutally raped over and over.

PINSKY: And she killed someone, though, Jenny.

HUTT: She did kill someone.

PINSKY: Let`s be fair. She did kill someone.

Let`s bring Ronnie back, I want to bring friend back.

You guys knew each other in high school, Ronnie. That`s correct?

RONNIE: Yes, sir, that`s true.

PINSKY: You said in the last segment you`re shocked that she was able to kill anyone, which we believe she did. That`s alleged, but apparently she has killed a guy.

So, my question is, why are you so sure she didn`t kill others?

RONNIE: It`s just that -- anybody`s capable of murder.

PINSKY: I don`t know about that.

RONNIE: Even myself.


RONNIE: That many people -- I mean, when I knew her, she had got in trouble with her mom and her dad for getting caught smoking pot and doing heroin. And if you get caught doing simple things like smoking pot, I highly doubt --

WALSH: Simple things like heroin.

PINSKY: Jennie Ketcham agrees with that wholeheartedly. But listen - -

KETCHAM: Totally.

PINSKY: But let me ask one more question before I turn over to the panel here a little bit. What was her relationship like with men? I heard there were some very bizarre qualities to how she related to men.

RONNIE: Yes, she -- how I met her. She was dating my friend at the time. I`ll leave his name out of it. But she was dating my friend at the time, and actually cheated on him with my other friend who is actually a female.


RONNIE: So her relationship with men were always kind of strained and weird and she was always just kind of strange when it came to any sort of relationships with people.

PINSKY: I heard there`s some strange sexual practices as well. You may not aware of that or is that --

HUTT: Here we go.

PINSKY: That`s what I heard.

KETCHAM: Yes, right.

PINSKY: Ronnie?

RONNIE: As far as I was aware, it was just that she kind of, you know, floated both ways. I don`t know anything in detail.

WALSH: Nothing bizarre about that.

PINSKY: Yes, exactly.

Anyone on the panel want to ask Ronnie a question, though?

You go ahead, Wendy.

WALSH: I have a question. So, in her relationships, did you find that she didn`t trust the people?

PINSKY: Well, sure.

WALSH: And maybe the fact that she was going back and forth and swinging both ways, wasn`t that she was so attracted but she wanted to sort of fortify herself with other relationships to feel safer, in other words, the more the merrier. If one leaves, there`s others as a backup, did you find that?

RONNIE: Yes. She was always the person who had a bunch of friends. I don`t think it`s more that she didn`t trust people. I think she kind of -- it wasn`t about trust. I think she wanted to always kind of have the upper hand on people.

PINSKY: Ronnie, we hear she was involved in Satanism. Do you know anything about that? I heard about a tattoo or something.

RONNIE: Oh, yes. The friend that`s a female that she cheated on my other friend with, I had met probably in fifth grade and she showed me that she a carved a Satanic symbol and a Nazi symbol on the back of her leg. When I met Miranda, she was telling me about a female that she was in love with, and we finally made the connection. She showed me her fabulous matching tattoo carved on the back of her leg that my friend had done for her. I just thought it was --

PINSKY: Jenny Hutt, last question, real quick.

HUTT: I just want to know what her relationship was like with her father.

RONNIE: As far as I`m aware, her relationship with her parents, I always -- I just heard her sides of the story, which were always kind of just extreme, just that her parents were really unfair, but then again you`re smoking weed and doing heroin -- of course, your parents will be a little unfair in your eyes.

PINSKY: Jillian, last question.

BARBERIE: Well, my point was -- you know, her sexual proclivities aside, didn`t the whole idea of her and her guy boyfriend lure this guy in was under the pretense of some sexual nature. So, they get him in there a little kinky and then they strangle and stab him. It just seems -- does it seem like out of the complete realm of possibilities to you at all or --

PINSKY: She was cutting swastikas in her leg, Jillian. I mean, she was cutting.

BARBERIE: Well, cutting yourself is one thing. Stabbing another human being is another.


RONNIE: Yes, her motivation for why she murdered that guy, I don`t believe that it was because he said the wrong things. I think they had ulterior motives and something went wrong, like she is said.

PINSKY: Got it. Ronnie, thank you so much.

And, of course, a reminder, HLN cannot confirm nor deny the allegations we`ve been hearing about this evening.

Coming up -- thank you, panel -- a teenager is kidnapped and beaten by classmates who carve a swastika on his forehead. And does the Confederate flag belong on a license plate? Ms. Ali will give us her thoughts and more on that after this.


PINSKY: And back with Jenny.

We`re now moving on to a story where someone thought it would be a great idea to offer the citizens of Georgia and a couple other states license plates with the Confederate flag on it.

The idea of this is offending a lot of people. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the flashpoint. It`s a new state-approved specialty license plate that features the Confederate battle flag.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Supporters say they have a right to honor their legacy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it`s a part of history, it`s a dark side of history. We were lynched, we were tortured. Our family was divided under this type of mind-set.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think that every organization that meets the qualifications that the Department of Motor Vehicles has established here in Georgia ought to have its own specialty plate, and probably, any organization --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The next you`ll have the Ku Klux Klan.


PINSKY: Still here, Anahita, Mark, Lynn.

Joining us, Ms. Shahrazad Ali, social commentator, author of "The Blackman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackwoman".

Ms. Ali, I`ve not spoken to you about this, I`m fascinated to hear your thoughts.

SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, you remember a few weeks ago, Dr. Drew, we were talking about Kanye West, who is black, coming out with a clothing line using the Confederate flag. And there was no big uproar in the black community about that and that was foolish, I thought.

However, the Sons of the Confederate Veterans have the right to have their flag on a license plate. They`re the Sons of the Confederate Veterans and I`m the daughter of the freedom fighters. And I want my own license plate.

PINSKY: So, let me make sure I hear you -- so you are defending their right to put this on their plate?

ALI: Well, I just think if that`s their heritage, they should have a right to do that. I don`t have any problem with that. Actually, it could backfire because a person with a Confederate flag on their license plate, that identifies who they are. And so, all black people ought to get a Confederate flag on their license plate maybe to protect them.

PINSKY: That`s very interesting.

I wonder if anybody else is as shocked as I am. Mark, what do you say?

EIGLARSH: I`m shocked because I clearly thought tonight would be the night that I truly agree with Ms. Ali, figuring she would say what that symbol represents is such a horrible dark time in African-Americans history that she would never endorse something like that.

SEDAGHATFAR: In all of our history.

EIGLARSH: American history. All of our history.

But apparently she came out on the other side. I`m all in favor of people if they want to put this flag on a bumper sticker on their car, that`s the First Amendment. But when the state endorses it, that`s where I draw the line.

The KKK shouldn`t be adopting a highway, you know?

PINSKY: Anahita, your point, too.

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, Mark, actually, I totally agree with you here. I have no problem with free speech, even if the speech is offensive. But in this case, this is sanctioned by the state. So, I think this is totally wrong, this is offensive. Many, many people find this to be very racist and I think it`s totally wrong.

PINSKY: Yes, Ms. Ali?

ALI: Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.

ALI: There are nine other states that have the Confederate flag on their license plate and we`ve never mentioned them and neither has anyone else. The license plates sell for $80.

EIGLARSH: Doesn`t make it right.

ALI: And the Sons of Confederate Veterans get $10 every time they sell a license plate. So far, they`ve only sold $500 worth, so this is no big deal.


EIGLARSH: It is because it`s precedent. It`s precedent. You know, the KKK wants their flag --

PINSKY: What`s that, Lynn?

BERRY: What`s interesting is we`re talking about it, but this plate`s actually always been offered. You`ve been showing the video of the plate where there`s a Georgia peach behind it and the smaller flag. That`s the new one. The older one also had the flag in it. It`s that one. That`s always been in existence.

So, the only reason we`re having this conversation is because there`s a new version of it that has the larger flag. So, 12 years ago, the state of Georgia took the Confederate flag off the state flag, so some are saying this is a step backward. Why isn`t Nathan Deal, who is the governor of Georgia, come out and said anything different than what he did say which is he had no idea this existed?

PINSKY: There`s got to be a better way. Ms. Ali, finish up with this topic. We`re ready to go into something else. Go ahead.

ALI: Listen, I`m not worried about no flag. I`m worried about juries that let men go who kill black boys. That`s what I`m worried about.

SEDAGHATFAR: This is a symptom of Ali.

PINSKY: I hear Ms. Ali.

EIGLARSH: That`s not the topic.

SEDAGHATFAR: I can`t believe that.

PINSKY: I hear her though.

All right. Let`s move on to this story -- four teenagers -- this is another symbol. I wonder if people react to this one. Four teens charged with carving a swastika on another teen`s face, but that`s not all they`re accused of.

Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, someone wants to kill me, someone is following me. I need some help. Call 911.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blue Kalmbach, Jenna Montgomery and Jess Taylor are all facing kidnapping, weapons and assault charges. They allegedly tortured Dustin Murrain in a shed for hours, shooting him with a bb gun, hitting him with a crow bar and using a box cutter to carve a swastika in his face.

He finally escaped. Police say the suspects may have been retaliating against him for being a bully himself.


PINSKY: Lynn, do you have any other details?

BERRY: Well basically, the thing that`s really disturbing, is I don`t know if you have the picture of one of the teen girls that`s accused of luring him into that shed where he`s not only shot with a bb gun, but he`s forced to eat cat feces, he`s hit with a crow bar, and then the swastika --

PINSKY: There she is.

BERRY: -- carved into his forehead.

There`s a picture on her social media that shows a satanic look. My point here is mom and dad go on their Instagram, Facebook, Twitter pages, where there is smoke, there is fire. If your child is dressing up in some satanic cult-like picture there`s likelihood that they`re in trouble and there`s something wrong here. Even if this kid was harassing them --

PINSKY: Yes, there`s no excuse.

BERRY: This is a different level.

PINSKY: Listen, we have an eye for an eye in this country? I mean, that`s ridiculous.

But, Jenny, I want to say something to you, which is my producers were wondering -- I was stunned to hear this -- whether everyone knew what a swastika was?



HUTT: I would hope that everyone would know what a swastika was. In case they don`t, it was originally a symbol for good, then the Germans, of course, turned it into a symbol of evil. And today, it represents evil toward and hate toward anyone who is not a pure Caucasian, pure white.

PINSKY: Ms. Ali, does that offend you? Do swastikas offend you? I mean, are these symbols meaningful or are we just worried about the practicalities of jury behavior?

ALI: No, I don`t think this is a hate crime. I think these young people --

HUTT: What?

ALI: -- want to practice the evil and they are wannabes, want to have their own initiation.


HUTT: What?


HUTT: Come on, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Doesn`t this stuff bother you?

ALI: Wait a minute. No, no, no, no. American teenagers rank last in the world in the study of reading and history. These young people probably don`t know nothing about no swastika.


PINSKY: No, but I think she`s right.

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They knew enough about the swastika to carve it on this guy`s forehead.

PINSKY: Yes. To them, it might have been just --

MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: I think we`re missing the point here.

PINSKY: Mark, finish --


PINSKY: What`s the point, Mark?

EIGLARSH: Whether it`s a swastika or whether it`s, you know, Marilyn Monroe, the issue is that they brutalized another teenager.

PINSKY: Of course.

EIGLARSH: And that they`re only going to get a certain amount of time -- excuse me, and then, and then, they`re going to go out do this again, unless, they`re punished, but more importantly, we figure out what it is that caused them to do it to prevent them from doing this to someone in the future.

ALI: Evil.

SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think you can talk about this story without commenting on the fact that they paint a swastika, carve a swastika on his forehead.

EIGLARSH: OK. That`s one part of it.

SEDAGHATFAR: I actually am not usually in favor of trying minors as adults, but in this particular case, they should all be tried as adults because this wasn`t some spontaneous fight, something that just happened. These kids planned this. They plotted it. They lured him into that shack and hit him in the head with a crow bar. He could have actually died. Thank God, he didn`t.


SEDAGHATFAR: They should be charged with attempted murder.


PINSKY: Wait. Miss Ali, you say happens every day?

ALI: This happens every day in all kind of communities. Somebody`s getting beat up, somebody getting dragged down the street, somebody getting shot. And so, this is a bad thing, but this is the evil that bored teenagers do. They just want to practice evil.

SEDAGHATFAR: So you punish them.

PINSKY: With that kind, lovely thought. Let me switch gears.

Up next, we have a juror in the loud music murder trial breaking her silence. Hear what she had to say about the verdict. Miss Ali, she`s going to talk about the role that race did or did not play in that jury room.

And later, our series "Hooked: All About Porn" continues with the woman who got hooked on pornography and became an online pornography sex addict before she was 13. Don`t go away.


PINSKY: Back with Jenny and our "Behavior Bureau," Wendy, Jillian, Tiffanie, and Miss Ali.

And I don`t want you guys to react to this tweet, but to give you a sense how people are responding to that last segment because we`ve got a lot more to get to tonight. The G.F. Liverpool, "I`m so shocked with the comments of Miss Ali or Mrs. Ali on the confederate flag. Bad free speech." And then tags all of us on that.

All right. Well, people are shocked, Miss Ali. But let`s keep going on. We`ve got a very interesting conversation about a second juror from the Michael Dunn so-called loud music murder trial. She says race played no role in deliberations. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never once thought about, oh, this was a Black kid, this was a White guy because that was -- that wasn`t the case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So the people who say, you know, here`s another White guy who got away with shooting and killing a Black kid, what would you tell them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would tell them that they really should acknowledge themselves on the law.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If this case wasn`t about race, then what was it about for you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was about justice. When I walked into it, I just wanted to bring justice to whoever it was, if it was Michael Dunn, I wanted to bring justice to him. If it was Kevin, Tommy, or Jordan, I wanted to bring justice to them.


PINSKY: And if you`d like to join our conversation, tweet us right now at @DrDrewHLN #bheaviorbureau.

Miss Ali, I know you`re champing at the bit. I saw your knowing grin during that young lady`s comments. I like what she`s saying. What do you say?

ALI: I know you do. I know you do. Didn`t I tell you all last week that they were back there convincing and making the Black people say this was not about race? She came right out and did it and said exactly what I said they were going to say.

PINSKY: You did.

ALI: That`s why they picked her to go on there. Those attorneys can pick up on Black people who have no sense of self or who`s afraid of them. I knew they were going to do that and that`s what she did exactly.

PINSKY: Wendy.

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: I need to challenge you a little bit. I mean, you may not know, Miss Ali, but my children are mixed race. I lived with a very dark skinned Black man for ten years. And he hated being called African-American. He goes, "I`m just an American." And when I see this case, I`m seeing that, you know, the parents of the victim are saying this is not about race, we want our son tried as an individual.

PINSKY: Well, hold on, Wendy. Miss Ali is reacting all over the place here.

WALSH: But the point is, it`s just -- let`s treat people as people is what they`re trying to say. I actually kind of agree with you, Miss Ali, but I`m trying to get in the head space of people who don`t want to play race, and they just want to be considered Americans because that`s what we are.

PINSKY: Miss Ali.

ALI: We are not African-Americans, I agree with that. We`re not African-Americans. We are American-Africans and that`s completely different from an African-American.

PINSKY: Tiffanie, help me out. Help me out, Tiffanie. Settle the score here for us.

TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I really don`t know if I can, Dr. Drew. I certainly think that race is a big issue and I think one of your guest last night said that it was disingenuous to not see race. And I think that race is something that no matter who you are, where you come from, it`s one of the first things that you notice about someone. So, it is kind of disingenuous to say that we won`t notice race.

PINSKY: That`s right.

HENRY: And certainly, our past experience with people of a certain race are going to color our lens of how we see that particular race, not always, but oftentimes, it does. And hopefully, we meet people. We have engagements with people that maybe will sway our views, especially if our views of a particular race are negative, but that`s not always the case.

PINSKY: There`s a lot of psychological literature, Wendy and Tiffanie, that does show that both American-Africans, to quote Miss Ali, and Caucasians and other ethnicities do have a subconscious bias, they just -- it`s just measurable. Jillian, go ahead.

WALSH: And White Americans as well.

JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely true. And I agree with Tiffanie to the point. I keep thinking if there were four White guys pulling up to a gas station and they were bumping Duran Duran, would this guy felt as threatened?

PINSKY: Duran Duran is kind of thuggy music, but anyway --


PINSKY: But Wendy, you`re trying to say something.

WALSH: Yes. What I want to say is that these parents wanted their son to be seen and understood as a teenager just a teenager, an American teenager who was slayed, not a Black youth.

ALI: He wasn`t.

WALSH: But having said that, Michael Dunn didn`t see their son as just an American teenager. And that`s where the problem comes.

PINSKY: Miss Ali, finish this up here.

ALI: What I was saying, Black people in America have Stockholm syndrome. They love the enemy. They`ve been here so long they`re afraid of the truth. This is what you all deal with. And so, they love to testify to you all that this is not about race, because they want you to love them. You have to understand that, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: I heard you say that before. And I really want to -- we got to go out for breakfast or something. I got to figure out where this all comes from. I want to know more. I`m fascinated, because I know a lot of people feel like you do and that`s why I want to understand this more fully. It makes me sad when you say things like that.

ALI: Can we record that breakfast meeting, Dr. Drew?



PINSKY: I think there`s a reality series here, frankly. I think that`s Miss Ali --

ALI: No, I`m not going on with you.

BARBERIE: I agree with Miss Ali when she says she`s more concerned about Black men getting killed than she is a license plate. I get it.

PINSKY: Yes. I get it, too. I get a lot of what she says, but I want -- it`s -- it`s -- I want to contextualize is all I`m saying. So, anyway, panel, excellent conversation.

Next up, we have an update on the girl declared brain dead after a tonsil surgery. You`ll hear from her mother.

And later, addicted to porn. I`ll be joined by a young woman who said it is harder to kick than drugs or alcohol. Back after this.



SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: If they choose to keep her alive by any means that they`re able to, God be with them.

PINSKY: No one has brought back from the dead. It has not happened.

ODUOLOWU: I`m just choosing this case to be on the side of angels and allow for the possibility of miracles.

PINSKY: They say she`s improving, not that she`s coming back to life or that her brain is waking up because that cannot happen.

ODUOLOWU: We don`t allow to the possibility of miracles, Dr. Drew. There are unexplained miracles in the medical profession. You, yourself --

PINSKY: Not this one. Not this one.


PINSKY: Back with Jenny, Anahita, Lynn, Wendy, and Jillian. We`re talking about Jahi McMath, the girl who was brain dead after a tonsillectomy. She was moved from a hospital to an undisclosed chronic care facility where she remains on ventilator, paralyzed with no meaningful response to the outside world.

However, her mother has posted an update on Facebook where she says, quote, "Despite what people say about my daughter being dead and how I must be ignorant, I can tell you that she`s much better physically and I see changes that give me hope."

She also goes on, quote, "Hopefully, my daughter can change some of the ways brain dead is viewed in today`s society. Honestly, I think she already has."

Wendy, help me with this. Change views on brain dead. Those are not -- that`s (INAUDIBLE). It doesn`t even make sense to say that.

WALSH: You know, I just don`t know, as a mother, I don`t know what I would do if I were in this situation, because she`s feeling a warm body. She`s seeing a chest rise and fall, albeit with a machine making it happen. And to have the bravery to turn off those machines and Dr. Drew, I want to remind you, we`ve talked about this before. In the history of our country, minorities were treated so badly by the medical establishment. They have lot of reasons to be highly suspicious.

PINSKY: No, I understand that. But still, this is -- it`s so frustrating. I want to bring Segun back, Segun Oduolowu. He`s a social commentary. I want to give Segun a chance to just ring in on this. You were so strong on the last time we talked about it. What are your thoughts?

ODUOLOWU: Well, Dr. Drew, I remain just as strong. I don`t think it`s for anyone on the outside to tell a mother what she should do with the life of her child. And as it pertains to the medical industry, I mean, 300 years ago penicillin wasn`t thought of or a vaccine for polio. Fifty years ago, we did not have stem cell or stem cell research. So, miracles can happen.


PINSKY: Anahita, you and Segun get along so well. Go ahead, Anahita.

SEDAGHATFAR: We love each other, Dr. Drew, remember? You know, I can`t fault this mother for her feelings.

PINSKY: Of course not.

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, of course not. So, you know, maybe she just needs some more time. She`s clearly in denial because every single expert in the world, every single doctor has said this girl is dead. Nothing`s going to change that. She`s never coming back to life. There are no such thing as miracles when someone`s dead. They don`t come back to life.

PINSKY: That`s right.


SEDAGHATFAR: Anahita, can I ask you a question. Do you have children?

SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t have children.


SEDAGHATFAR: Don`t tell a mother what --

PINSKY: You`re right. We shouldn`t be -- but I`ll tell you what, I would never foist this on my children because I know what this is. Lynn, you were shaking your head vigorously --


LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Segun, you are doing a disservice to this family. You can`t make someone undead. And sadly, this family is being surrounded with people like Segun who want to believe there`s pots of gold at the end of the rainbow. I believe in God. I`m a faithful person. I believe in miracles. I believe people that have a one percent chance of living can survive and make it because of the grace of God. This is not that case.

PINSKY: This is one percent.


BERRY: To be surrounded by people like Segun and it is a disservice and it is emptying their pockets.

PINSKY: That`s the big issue --


PINSKY: Jenny Hutt`s trying to say something here. This costs a fortune to keep a biological physiological prep going.

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Listen, Dr. Drew, I`m not thinking about the finances. I`m actually just thinking about the family and how sad and tragic this whole thing is. But, like Lynn just said, the kid unfortunately has already died and she`s being kept alive.

PINSKY: Jillian, I can keep people alive indefinitely, their bodies going, I can keep the heart going, I can keep the temperature, I can do -- no problem, we can do that medically, it`s really easy. But to make a dead person live, you cannot.

BARBERIE: Well, Dr. Drew --

ODUOLOWU: Wow. That`s so unfair. That was such an unfair statement.


PINSKY: It`s absolutely accurate. That`s why I`m so clear about this. We are keeping the dead alive for the family, which is OK, but we got to help the family come to terms with this. In the meantime, Jillian, last thought.

BARBERIE: Dr. Drew, when this first came up a few weeks ago, I agreed vehemently with Segun. I said, absolutely, I`m a mother. No one has the right. I was thinking along the lines of a coma. I know people --

PINSKY: This is not coma. This is not coma.

BARBERIE: I know that. And you made that very clear and medically, you know, you changed my mind about this, but to be a mother and to tell somebody --

PINSKY: I know.

BARBERIE: -- that they have to pull her off of --


PINSKY: You`re right. That`s why you focus your treatment is on the poor family that`s stuck and not able to do this.

Next up, I`ve got switch gears entirely. We got to. We`re going to talk about porn addiction, everybody. From the sublime to the ridiculous. Next up -- don`t forget you can find us anytime on Instagram @DrDrewHLN and that Instagram account is about to reach a milestone. So, please join us to be a part of that. Be right back.


PINSKY: Time for this week`s series "Hooked: All About Porn." Jenny Hutt and I are back with Jenni Ketcham, Wendy, and Jillian. And joining us, 24-year-old, Breanne Saldivar. She`s a recovering porn addict. She stumbled upon internet porn when she was a junior -- in junior high, and by 18 was deep into addiction and required treatment. Breanne, tell us about the recovery from porn addiction and the power of this addiction.

BREANNE SALDIVAR, RECOVERING PORN ADDICT: You know, it`s a very misunderstood addiction, I think, honestly. I feel like with alcohol and drugs, it`s a very black and white thing, you know? Sobriety is no alcohol or no drugs.

However, with porn addiction and especially anything involving your sexuality, you know, our sexuality as humans is a natural thing and something that you can`t altogether suppress because that can be just as lethal as sort of the overindulgence in it. And so, it`s a very challenging thing. It`s a very difficult thing because you have to find moderation with something that you`ve never been able to be moderate with in your life.

PINSKY: Jennie Ketcham, I wonder if you have -- want to share some thoughts on this.

JENNIE KETCHAM, RECOVERING SEX ADDICT: Yes. I mean, I totally agree with you. It`s a really tricky situation defining sobriety not only for yourself as a porn addict, being a sex addict myself, I understand that. So, defining sobriety for yourself, but being able to help people understand what sobriety means for sex addiction or for porn addiction is really a very difficult thing because there`s really big sense of entitlement that comes with people`s sexuality.

PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting. Maybe that`s a cultural thing we do these days. That`s why people create a circle plan. They have healthy activities, they have slippery activities, and they have verboten activities. Breanne, what do you think porn is doing to young people. It sucked you into the young age. Do you think it`s having an impact we don`t even understand yet?

SALDIVAR: I think you`re right on with that. I think that we will not understand the consequences of this until another couple of years. I think we`re really going to start to see it, but already, it`s -- I`ve seen it a lot in people my age, just the destruction it has on relationships or just how we treat human beings in general. I mean, when you are so used to objectifying people as just what can you do for me in the utilitarian sense, it wreaks havoc in a lot of ways in social communities and everything.

PINSKY: Thank you, Breanna. Wendy, I want to give you ten seconds.

WALSH: I need to say something really fast. Even though moderate use of porn can help long-term monogamous couples, what I hate is that pervasive nature of the porn culture that has spread where everybody, where a kindergarten teacher wears hooker pumps to school, where a virgin gets a bikini wax where young girls are ask to do acts that they don`t feel comfortable with because a guy saw it porn somewhere. That`s a porn culture that we need to get over quickly. It`s hurting our girls.

PINSKY: And the "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: And the last call goes to our tweets of the night. The first one is for our Canadians, Jillian and Wendy. Let`s put that up if you could, because I can`t read it -- there it is. Canada/U.S. hockey game tomorrow. This is a billboard in Chicago. "Loser keeps Bieber."


PINSKY: There you go, ladies.

HUTT: That is funny.

WALSH: It`s a lose-lose for me, at least, because I have dual citizenship. I get him no matter what.

BARBERIE: Me, too.

PINSKY: Now, put this one up about Miss Ali, if you could. Put that up right now. Let`s get -- we`ve run out of time. Real quick. "Someone please assist in helping Miss Ali make a Twitter. I love her. #AmericanAfricans -- get you a Twitter account.

BARBERIE: She`s great.

PINSKY: Got to go, guys. "Right This Minute" starts right this minute.