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Did Wife Murder Husband With Hammer?
Aired February 24, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, this woman admits to killing her husband with a hammer. She said she had to after he made her have sex four times a week.
MARISSA DEVAULT: I was so tired of the sexual abuse. I didn`t mean to do it.
PINSKY: Plus, too drunk to teach.
OFFICER: You are intoxicated. You can`t even stand up.
PINSKY: A substitute teacher denies being loaded.
Then, a daughter admits on camera to stabbing her own mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was the antichrist. She did not die.
PINSKY: What does the behavior bureau think?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.
My co-host is Sirius XM Radio`s Jenny Hutt.
Coming up, my own daughter, Jenny, and thank you to your text about what she went public with and made headlines today. I`ll address it a little bit later.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes.
PINSKY: But, first on, a woman confessed to murdering her husband with a hammer.
PINSKY: She said she was being physically and sexually abused. The prosecutors have a much different story to tell. Take a look at this.
DEVAULT: I didn`t mean to do it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say she confessed to hitting her husband with a claw hammer while he slept.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s alleging abuse at the hands of her lover.
DEVAULT: I was so tired of the sexual abuse. I didn`t mean to do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The person she`s accused of murdering.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The two were having marital problems.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s claiming that her husband`s forcing himself on her.
DEVAULT: When I`m not participating as much, he gets rougher because it`s -- I`m not fun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s talking about having sex all those times, but she`s got a smile on her face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was Devault`s lover that was controlling her and manipulating the murder plot behind the scenes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty minutes after she admits to hammering her husband, who does she call?
You got it. Secret lover.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Over the course of their relationship, borrowed over $300,000.
When Devault couldn`t pay, she hatched a plan to kill her husband.
PINSKY: Joining us Erica America, Z100 Radio personality and psychotherapist, Michael Catherwood, radio and TV host, and my co-host on "Loveline", Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell", and Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com.
Joining us by phone, Shanna Hogan. She`s a journalist and author of "Picture Perfect."
Shanna, fill out the details for us, if you will.
SHANNA HOGAN, JOURNALIST (via telephone): This is such an interesting case, Dr. Drew. It`s been tied to Jodi Arias because these were two young attractive women who are now claiming self-defense in these gruesome, gruesome crimes. But the prosecution has put on a pretty solid case against her so far, against Marissa.
PINSKY: Well, now, my understanding is she had this other boyfriend and she was borrowing money from him. For what?
HOGAN: Oh, for various loans, she told him it was for rent, to fix her car and progressively more money to the point where she owed him $300,000. And she told him she was going to pay him back by killing her husband.
PINSKY: All right. Thanks, Shanna.
Now, she claims the husband woke her up and forced himself on her the night he was killed. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEVAULT: I woke up to -- to this. And he was bent over a little bit lower. And he wasn`t very polite to me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did he say?
DEVAULT: This (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is mine. It`s the one I remember the most, something about (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You blacked out?
DEVAULT: And the next thing I see is -- I saw hammer going into Dale`s head.
PINSKY: Jenny, I`m going to start with you. She`s sort of laughing as she tells this horrible story.
HUTT: Well, she is. As you said in the tape earlier, we saw she claimed that she was asked to have sex, or forced to have sex four nights a week, if that was a motive for murder, there would be a lot of dead husbands.
PINSKY: Yes, Mike, you`d be one of them.
MIKE CATHERWOOD, RADIO & TV PERSONALITY: Yes, I`d be way dead. Way, way dead. My wife admitted she`s plotted hitting me with a hammer.
PINSKY: That`s for different reasons. That`s a crazy pictures you send everybody, I think.
Mike Eiglarsh, what do you make of this case? What do you make of it?
MIKE EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, I`m not buying what she`s claiming. She doesn`t seem to be very believable in any of the tapes I saw.
But here`s the thing -- let`s say there`s a history of violence, OK? Separation, not slaughter, OK? There`s divorce, not death. I`m a lyrical gangster, I can keep going on with these.
You don`t kill somebody. You don`t kill someone. The blood spatter expert is going to poke holes in where she`s alleging this took place.
If he was in his sleep laying on his back, it will be very clear and it`s going to blow a big hole in her defense.
PINSKY: Loni, you know, women get caught in a cycle of abuse. Do you have any sense that that`s what`s going on here? I mean, Jodi Arias claimed the same thing.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, who happens to be friends with her in jail, let`s remember that, too.
No, I don`t believe this story that she`s telling of the physical or sexual abuse. Obviously, she wants to make it like she`s the poor little victim, which is why she had to take this horrible weapon, the hammer, and hit her husband so many times in the head.
But they`ve separated before. They almost got divorced before. She knows how to get out of this relationship if it is that dangerous, if it is that scary for her. She could have called the police after he stopped this.
She didn`t do any of those things. She resorted to only the hammer.
PINSKY: And she was having an affair apparently with Allen Flores (ph). And, Erica, let me show what we know about him. He was 20 years older. They found child pornography on his computer. We know that Marissa owed him $300,000. For what, I don`t get. And apparently, discussed hiring a hit man with him.
Erica, what do you make of this?
ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO PERSONALITY: It just doesn`t add up. The fact that she was having this complicated longstanding affair with this man doesn`t add up to a woman who was being abused and couldn`t say anything. It just doesn`t make sense.
And who keeps a hammer next to their bed? It sounds premeditated. It sounds like there was a lot of anger, personality disorder.
AMERICA: If you look at her reaction to her laughing --
PINSKY: Smiling inappropriately. We`re looking at her smiling here alongside of me here. It`s just very bizarre seeing her do that.
Now, a few hours of interrogation in, she finally confesses. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEVAULT: I was so tired of the sexual abuse.
I didn`t mean to do it.
I said, you don`t own me!
And then I hit him. I hit him with both hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mike, what do you make of this? I don`t buy any of it.
CATHERWOOD: I don`t either. Listen, you got to be pretty committed to smashing a person`s face in with a hammer. I mean, it`s not like a fit of rage thing.
I`m not trying to make light of women who are being abused. I know there`s plenty of women all over the world that unfortunately have to deal with that.
But there`s a lot better ways, even if she -- even if she just flew off the handle in a fit of rage, you might understand a quick stab in the neck, then run away, then just confess, but to sit there and smash someone`s face in with a hammer, that`s no joke. I mean, that`s no joke.
PINSKY: Mark, it`s so reminiscent of cutting someone`s throat and shooting them and stabbing in the back multiple times, isn`t it?
EIGLARSH: Oh, that is correct. A lot of parallels between the two killers.
But let`s throw the other side of the coin out for everybody to see. Let`s say there`s at least one juror who drank that cup of gullible, right? And they start to believe, my God, maybe she gives a Dunn-like Academy Award performance and starts to believe that maybe she was abused. And maybe at that moment he then was trying to kill her.
You just need one juror, my friend to hang that jury up.
PINSKY: Oh my God.
Up next, I`m going to bring in the behavior bureau to try to figure this out.
I`ve got to go, Mike. We`ve got to move on. Next, and then after I talk to the behavior bureau and I want more of those pictures of Jodi and this chick side by side. They`re pretty chilling.
Then, drunk in the classroom -- cops say this grade school teacher showed you for work wasted.
And a reminder, you can find us anytime at Instagram @DrDrewHLN.
We`ll be right back after this.
PINSKY: Jenny and I are back and we`re discussing that woman. Kind of an interesting head on her let`s say. She`s accused of killing her husband with a hammer. She says her husband abused her. She has bizarre kind of concrete thinking about relationships.
Let me tell you a tweet, Jenny. This is from K.J. "Women killing their husbands is the new trend. Is she related to Jodi Arias?"
HUTT: Yes, Dr. Drew, it sort of seemed that way and I don`t get it. People can get separated, divorced, there`s a gazillion other options.
PINSKY: Look at the two of them -- the affect, the inappropriate laughter in the setting of a murder interrogation. That is stunning. Just chilling when you see that.
I want the behavior bureau to explain this to me.
First of all, Samantha Schacher, social commentator, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, Tiffanie Davis Henry, psychotherapist and HLN contributor, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist.
Judy, thank you for being at the hillside event on Saturday helping support kids who have been through trauma and foster children. Hillside.org is the Web site if anyone else wants to support it. Great organization.
And Erica America still with me.
Judy, you first, do you buy it?
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: No, I don`t, Dr. Drew. And I know a lot of people are drawing this parallel with Jodi arias. This is what I`m sick of. People are now constantly abusing this idea of post-traumatic stress disorder, possible sexual abuse, sexual trauma, and I don`t think it`s fair to the people who are actually sufferers of this terrible disorder and disease.
HO: So, one of my issues with this particular woman and her inappropriate affect is that, that is, first of all, a dead giveaway. But second of all, a way that people can use to separate themselves emotionally from something terrible they`ve done by laughing about it. Like making light of a situation and being able to distance themselves from it.
PINSKY: It`s glee. She seems to be expressing glee in response to -- you know, Jeannine Driver would say it`s duper`s delight.
In the interrogation, she said her husband demanded sex every day of the week. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERROGATOR: So basically every day you guys had sex?
INTERROGATOR: And then one day and four days out of that seven days, it`s one of those where, OK, this is my duty type of a thing. I`m going to lay here. Does he get rough? To where --
DEVAULT: When I`m not participating as much he gets rougher because it`s -- I`m no fun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Tiffanie, you talk about blaming the victim. She disturbs me more than Jodi Arias, strangely.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: In some ways she does. You know, plenty of couples -- and I think Jenny alluded to this in the previous segment. Plenty of couples will have a desire discrepancy, where one couple wants it more than the other. That can change throughout the relationship.
HUTT: Of course.
HENRY: That is not a reason to murder someone.
HUTT: Of course not!
HUTT: At least go to counseling, at least talk this thing out and at least negotiate that. But there`s so many other option than bludgeoning your husband to death.
PINSKY: Sam, I`m certain you`ve at least raised a hammer to your husband?
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh, never, no! I would feel guilty -- thank you. If I accidentally elbow him in my sleep, which happens quite a few times. So, for that I`m sorry.
SCHACHER: Thank you. He is, he`s amazing. But no, I`ve never even imagined that, Dr. Drew.
But here`s the thing. This woman doesn`t value human life or her husband`s life. She values money more. So I agree with the prosecution based on the evidence, based on her behavior, that she absolutely killed her husband in cold blood to cash in on that life insurance policy.
And what Judy said earlier, Dr. Drew, about women like Jodi Arias and this woman throwing out these allegations of abuse so they can use that to get out of their murder charges, just makes it that much more difficult for the women who really are victims of domestic violation or sexual abuse the come forward because they feel like no one will believe them.
PINSKY: That`s right. Erica, Sam has a great point. Women do get caught in a cycle of abuse and violence can escalate, but this doesn`t sound like the story at all.
AMERICA: No, definitely not. In this case it sounds like premeditated, maybe in cohorts with the lover, maybe not, not sure about that at this point, but doesn`t seem like someone who at the last second pulled out a hammer because she was being attacked. I mean, even the way she describes the abuse doesn`t sound like what the typically, you know, what it would look like.
PINSKY: I`m going to see if Judy and Tiffanie agree with my little concert here. It sounds more like a dissociative state with rage. Tiffanie, do you think we`re seeing another borderline with psychopathic traits with Jodi?
HENRY: I could say borderline with psychopathic traits, maybe, but I don`t think she`s dissociative. I think she was there with it and she knew exactly what she was doing. This was part of the plan.
PINSKY: Though she claimed she kind of came to -- you`re right, there`s certainly motivation with this $300,000 debt.
HENRY: She was very cognizant of what she was doing, Dr. Drew.
HO: And I say this person is somebody who has a lower IQ, concrete thinking patterns, as you mentioned earlier in this segment, the way she conceptualizes what a marriage is, what a wife does. You know, the way that she talks about things. It`s very much like in the present moment with no planning, no bigger picture.
HO: And so, I think that at point, something came up where she said, you know what, the money now is the now and present thing that I`m going to be focused on. How do I get to that? Oh, here`s a hammer, let me just take this hammer because it`s what in front of me right now and let`s get this going right here.
HO: There`s no --
HO: You know what I`m saying?
PINSKY: What`s that, Tiffanie?
HENRY: That`s a pretty lame excuse, though. There are many of women sitting at home my husband wants it every night of the week, and I don`t feel like it. But guess what? I bend over and I do whatever I had to do, break a leg and do whatever, I give it to him and then it`s over. You know?
PINSKY: Jenny, you`re agreeing awfully enthusiastically. Explain.
HUTT: I`m saying, listen, there`s plenty of times that you want it, there`s plenty of times that you`re not so in the mood. It`s part of being a wife, but that`s the joy also of being a wife. We want that connection with our husbands. I think I certainly do.
PINSKY: Isn`t it weird, anybody that they were actually having sex four nights a week and that, you know, over long periods of time and yet she`s able to flip into this abusive murderous state, does anybody think that`s weird?
HUTT: Dr. Drew, that`s why she`s so -- I don`t know the technical term, sociopathic, psychopath?
PINSKY: To me, so hard for me to get my head around it.
And, Sam, I know you`re a co-dependent like me, are you having that same trouble getting your head around it or as a woman understand how someone can do that? I don`t quite get it.
SCHACHER: No, I actually see her as a very callous person, even as a co-dependent. But I`m curious, is there history there? Do we know if she`s had any other weird kind of Jodi-esque tendencies like stalking? I`m curious about that.
PINSKY: Yes, that`d be very interesting to know.
Erica, you had a comment.
AMERICA: Yes. I`m going to say, this is also a very vicious way to kill someone with a hammer. I mean, that is intimate, that`s passionate and personal. Not like a gun from a mile away. This says a lot about her.
PINSKY: Is there any tie-in with really what is a lot of sexual activity and sounds like sort of violent sexual contact and this violent behavior, do you make any connection there?
HO: -- sexual deviance. We see that sexual deviance with individuals who have psychopathic tendencies. Part of a risk taking behavior. It`s going out of the box a little bit. I see that aspect of it.
But I think the other aspect is what I was mentioning earlier about the lower IQ, the concreteness of this is what a wife does, four times a week you have sex. So, I think both of those things play into this situation.
PINSKY: If they only get the neuropsych testing on her, we`d figure it out.
Tiffanie, last thought.
HENRY: I don`t even know if it was violent sexual activity. It could have been rough sex and maybe she liked it and maybe she didn`t, who knows? That`s the parallel with Jodi Arias. Some days she liked it.
HENRY: Bottom line, no excuse to kill your husband.
PNSKY: We`ll leave it there. Up next -- we`ll be watching that story -- caught on video, an elementary school teacher drunk on the job allegedly.
And later, a woman who says she was forced to stab her own mother three times. Hear that confession after this.
PINSKY: I`m back with Jenny. And Jenny and I are being tormented by Michael Catherwood who will be on this next segment.
Thank you, Jenny, for standing up for me. Oh, my goodness, he has a way of texting things that disturb.
A grade school teacher has been arrested for showing up to work drunk. Police confronted and cuffed the woman. They say she`d already been teaching for a few hours at that point. Take a look.
SUSPECT: He called me to sub today.
REPORTER: But police say Michelle Childress couldn`t even stand up or talk straight.
SUSPECT: I was really upset.
OFFICER: What`d you come up here like this?
SUSPECT: Well, they asked me to sub. So I did. I subbed.
OFFICER: This isn`t her first rodeo, or second, or third.
OFFICER: She made it, I believe, to the classroom.
OFFICER: What did you take? I can smell alcohol, but what else?
SUSPECT: No, that`s it. I drank a little bit.
OFFICER: So you drank and came up here to sub? Not too good of a decision.
SUSPECT: No, but I mean, it`s not a bad decision.
OFFICER: It is a bad decision. You are coming to a school intoxicated to try to sub.
SUSPECT: No, I`m not intoxicated.
OFFICER: You are intoxicated.
SUSPECT: I didn`t drive.
OFFICER: You can`t even stand up. You`re under arrest for public intoxication.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: With us Jillian Barberie, KABC radio host, Mike, Loni and Mark are back.
Jillian, you had quite a reaction to that video.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, KABC RADIO HOST: Well, my first reaction was tell Mike to send me the inappropriate text.
PINSKY: You do not want these things. His wife tells me -- I`ve succumbed to him because his wife tells me that`s just his way of saying, hi, I`m thinking of you. You don`t want him thinking of you that way. Trust me.
BARBERIE: I might appreciate them more, Mike, that`s all I`m saying.
Yes, this woman, I think it says it all.
CATHERWOOD: Jillian would like them.
PINSKY: All right. We`ll Jillian that.
BARBERIE: When the cop says do you think that`s appropriate? She`s like, well, it`s not like it`s inappropriate. Yes, we got issues. She already had DUIs. She was three times the limit.
Listen, I get. You get called in quickly, it happens here on the Dr. Drew show. You are out with your girlfriend, a couple cocktails, they call you in, who knows what you`re going to say? But the point is you`re working with children and it`s 9:00 a.m. in the morning.
She needs help, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: That`s right. That`s what I want to ask the legal people here, then Mike we`ll talk about what we understand about this condition she`s got. She`s clearly impaired, Mark. She`s not thinking normally.
PINSKY: But does the court look upon that with any kind of clemency like this woman is clearly ill and needs help.
EIGLARSH: Well, of course, if she has the right lawyer. A bad one would argue she`s not drunk. She`s just -- she doesn`t have slurred speech. She`s speaking in cursive.
Of course, the right lawyer, like myself or Loni, if they have a little bit of compassion, Loni, would argue to a judge that she`s sick. The American Medical Association calls an addiction a disease, she`s sick and she needs help. I don`t condone her behavior. She needs help.
PINSKY: And there`s a chance to help her before she hurts somebody else here.
PINSKY: If she hurt somebody else, I would say we come crashing down, right, Loni?
COOMBS: No. Exactly. Zero tolerance for this. I have sympathy, you have a problem, that`s fine. But don`t come in and teach my children.
Look, these are 6, 7, 8-year-old children. As a parent I wouldn`t leave one child that age alone by themselves much less 30 of them. She didn`t even know this was a bad idea. I mean , she was three times the legal limit, Mark.
EIGLARSH: She`s not in her right mind.
COOMBS: But then don`t come in and be teacher, right?
PINSKY: But she can`t think that far, she can`t understand that.
EIGLARSH: But she`s sick. Don`t you understand, Loni? She`s powerless over her addiction, she doesn`t get it.
PINSKY: Hold on. I want you guys to fight it out. But, Jillian, you had something to say here.
PEREIRA: Well, there`s a glaring omission here if that was her mug shot, where the hell did her hair go? That`s all I`m saying. Was that a weave?
EIGLARSH: That`s the problem, Jillian?
BARBERIE: No, I have a 6-year-old. I don`t want this woman teaching my children.
EIGLARSH: We`re all in agreement there.
PINSKY: I believe had the cops not gotten hold of her, the school administration would have. But, Jenny, you were nodding your head when Loni was saying she doesn`t want this woman around children.
HUTT: Exactly. I agreed with her. And also what Jillian was saying.
First of all, she got up and did her hair from the night before or something. I know it`s catty to say.
But, Dr. Drew, she`s clearly -- her judgment is grossly impaired. A little bit tipsy? She is trashed.
PINSKY: All right, Mike. Let`s bring some compassion for this woman. She didn`t harm anybody, she does need treatment. Hopefully, she would comply with treatment were it offered. What do you say?
CATHERWOOD: That`s exactly the point of this whole -- the whole issue really boils down to whether or not she`s going to receive help, help that she desperately needs for her very obvious problem with alcoholism. But if she is going to continue to go down this path of making incredibly dangerous and irresponsible decisions, then she is more to blame than just her own disease.
I oftentimes hear the saying that you can`t blame someone for their disease. You can`t, but you can blame them for their recovery.
PINSKY: For not participating.
CATHERWOOD: She`s gotten a very, very effective wake-up call and whether or not she chooses to make the right choice here is on her.
PINSKY: All right. Loni, a second to you. I get it. I get.
COOMBS: That`s right. At some point, you take responsibility for your life. Stop putting it on everybody else.
PINSKY: No, at some point, you say you`re in jail and maybe she`ll gain insight there.
EIGLARSH: But not now, Loni.
COOMBS: Why not now? How many more times? How many more times does she have to be --
EIGLARSH: Loni, give her the opportunity if she wants --
COOMBS: First time. At the first time.
BARBERIE: She had the opportunity once, Mark.
COOMBS: First DUI.
BARBERIE: Exactly. Aren`t there more substitute teachers that are willing, that are sober to teach our 6-year-olds?
EIGLARSH: I`m not saying put her in a classroom. I`m saying don`t put her in jail. Get her the treatment --
BARBERIE: She already had a chance.
COOMBS: What happened the first time?
PINSKY: Maybe her own lawyer. Mark didn`t defend her evidently. But the fact is --
EIGLARSH: That`s it, thank you.
PINSKY: But consequence. Work, school, finance, relationship, legal status. She`s now developing them and one of them cuts through. You see how impaired she is. She can`t think normally, and hopefully she will get help.
I`m with you, Loni, if she endangers anybody, I`ve got no, no sympathy whatsoever.
A reminder, we did try to reach this teacher for comment but we were unable to get in touch with her.
Next, we`ll hear from, another impaired person but this one is scarier. She said she had no choice but to kill her own mother.
And later, unbelievable video of rolling up to a man, and then just running him over and gunning it. It`s crazy. You have to see this. Be right back.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt, and we`re getting into a story now that is chilling. Katie Nichols (ph) allegedly tried to kill her mother because this young lady says her mother was the leader of a satanic cult responsible for, like, nuclear explosions that were yet to happen.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: This seems very rational, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Very rational. And we know that Katie did this murder because she admitted it on camera. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The person talking lives at Sun Chase apartments and is close friends with the 61-year-old woman who was stabbed a few doors down early Tuesday morning. She doesn`t want her face shown but tells me the woman`s daughter, Katie Nichols, is to blame.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But she`s just not emotionally stable and, you know, does the best that she can but needs quite a bit of help.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She says after the stabbing Nichols took off with her young daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I almost kind of hope that she does come back through here so that we can get the authorities to get her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not five minutes later, it happened. Nichols walked up to the camera.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The satanic cult in this city has been casting satanic spells on me for three or four days. I`m exhausted. I came home. I found out that my mom was the ring leader and she was trying to kill my daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nichols tells me she had to act because her mom was putting curses on them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had to kill her. She was going to kill both of us. She was so powerful. I had no idea. I had no idea that my mother was that powerful.
PINSKY: Let`s bring in our "Behavior Bureau," Sam, Tiffanie, Judy, and Erica America. And reminder, if you want to join the conversation, you can tweet us right now @DrDrewHLN #BehaviorBureau. And I misspoke before you saw that tape. This young lady we saw with that delusion did not kill but attempted to kill and stab, allegedly she tried to. Sam, you have a powerful reaction to this story.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I`m appalled, Dr. Drew, by this neighbor. I`m sorry this may come off harsh, but I`m calling out this neighbor. She`s so casually described Katie Nichols (ph) as emotionally unstable. She suspected her. She calls her weird as if she was waiting for the other shoe to drop, and that`s not OK. We need to call authorities when we feel like something is off about someone.
She should have called CPS. She has a young daughter. And Dr. Drew, now more than ever, as acquaintances, neighbors, friends, family, we need to intervene. We`re seeing more and more people who are suffering from mental illness, who are not undergoing treatment, committing these heinous acts. And if we continue to turn a blind eye, all of our lives are at risk.
PINSKY: Great with a start this (ph). I don`t think you`ll find any disagreement from this panel. But here is more from that daughter. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputies say Nichols` mother was stabbed in the neck, chest, and stomach, and was rushed to the hospital for surgery.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I left, she was still breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I stabbed her three times and she should have died. She was still breathing. And I don`t know what happened to her afterwards and I don`t know where they took her or what exactly happened, but she was the anti-Christ. She did not die.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nichols says afterwards she and her daughter hid out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We went in my car. We ended up in a little rural area and we just waited for the sign that it was safe to come back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now that Nichols is in custody, neighbors say they`re hopeful she`ll get the help she needs. But Nichols is convinced she did everyone a favor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had symbolic representations of my death, my daughter`s death, every nuclear explosion that was supposed to happen that`s not going to now, because all of the satanic cult has been rounded up and killed now.
PINSKY: Jenny, you`ve never seen a delusional person in that kind of florid state. What`s your reaction?
HUTT: Well, this is what I have to say, Dr. Drew. This is the first defendant, if you will, in a long time on this show that I believe. I believe she really thought her mother was the anti-Christ. She really believes these delusions.
PINSKY: Well, that`s right.
HUTT: Incredibly sad to watch.
PINSKY: That`s what delusions are.
HUTT: She needs help.
PINSKY: Tiffanie, go ahead.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. You know, looking at this case, in particular, it definitely pulled on my heartstrings. I`ve seen (ph) many occasions like this. And here`s what we know just based on her report. She said she had those satanic spells cast over her for about three to four days. To me, that says, that it was quite a bit of maybe some auditory hallucinations, at least, a manic episode or psychosis that was going on. She also reported her mom being the ring leader. So, there were some paranoid delusions mixed in with that that mom was trying to kill her daughter.
And then, put on top of that, I`m exhausted. This has been going on for three to four days. I haven`t slept probably. So, there`s a lot going on here. And it`s a perfect mix for something like this to happen.
PINSKY: And it`s what Sam was saying, no one got her and said, hey, chick, yes, your mom`s not. This is delusional.
HENRY: And here`s thing, we don`t know if anyone didn`t go and say this to her. If she hadn`t done anything, really calling the cops isn`t going to do anything. They`re going to come out. They`re going to do a well-check. If she hasn`t done anything, they can`t arrest her. They can`t -- or they can`t commit her.
PINSKY: Well, they could commit her with that kind of delusional thinking if they found --
HENRY: If she voiced it.
PINSKY: If she voiced it -- Erica.
HENRY: I still think we should not turn a blind eye.
PINSKY: I agree.
ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO AND TV HOST: I`m worried that this is going to happen in other places because of the fact that just a few weeks ago, Dr. Drew, if you remember, we talked about a woman who brutally stabbed her own children because she thought the devil was with them. So, this is people who don`t have a strong sense of self, don`t have a purpose.
They relate to cults or attacking cults and going against them. And it`s something that`s going to continue to happen if we don`t have early intervention like Sam was saying. That`s really important.
PINSKY: And Judy, I think the three likely possibilities of what`s going on here, meth, meth addicts become very delusional, and they focus on people close to them, and they can get violent. Remember, Todd Bridges, the actor, believed his grandmother built a factory under his house -- to torment him. And he took out a gun and started shooting. That`s meth. Could be a schizophrenic-type reaction.
She`s in that age. And as Tiffanie said, it could be a manic episode. Those are three common things. Any other thoughts?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, I want to just mention that what you said about the meth. The methamphetamine induced psychosis. That`s absolutely something that happens. And when I was in college, one of my best friends in college was a victim of this. And because we were trying to get them help --
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Hold on. He became the victim of a murder by a meth patient or he became a meth addictive?
HO: No. He was meth addicted and he had his first psychotic break while he was using meth.
HO: And when we were trying to get him help, the three of us that are really close friends with him, he basically spun a story that we were, all along with the FBI, trying to kill him. So then, he threatened our lives. And we actually all had to get restraining orders against him to protect ourselves.
And so when we call a delusion, right, Dr. Drew, because it`s partially based in reality in that there`s something happening in reality, but they spin it a different way. And earlier in the day, she was having an argument with her mom. So, you can see how that in her mind and her psychotic mind, she thought, oh, my mom is now the anti-Christ trying to kill me.
PINSKY: Yes. But by the way, everybody. When people have crazy thoughts, don`t go -- wait a second. Maybe aliens are beaming thoughts into her head or maybe -- no. Intervene. People are in trouble then. And if you don`t feel you have the ability to assess, get someone who can. There can be help. And if there is not help, you have Newtown, Connecticut. You have cases like this.
You have all sorts of horrible, horrible things that happen. And by the way, more often than not, the horrible things happen to the person who is delusional and not well. So, you can really save people`s lives. Thank you, guys.
Next up, another crazy situation. A car runs over a man in broad daylight and then just keeps on going. This one is brutal.
And later, we kick off our series "Hooked: My Crazy Obsession." We will introduce you to some little known obsessions. There`s one. My little pony. Controlling people`s lives with obsessions. Be right back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Watch as an elderly man walks through a Vegas service station to pay for his gas. And moments later, he is run down by another motorist. Take a closer look as the driver pauses just inches away from man`s knees, then floors it, running him over, leaving him writhing in pain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny, Sam, Jillian, Tiffanie, and Mike. That man was injured, however he did survive. The driver of that silver Honda has not been found. When he is, he`ll be charged with attempted murder. Anyone knowing, if that looks familiar to anybody, please check into it.
Sam, any idea, has anything happened on the internet, social media that`s sort of zeroing in on who this guy is and what his motive might have been?
SCHACHER: Well, it definitely is active on social media right now. So, it is getting its rounds. Hopefully, somebody will come forward, but I`m not sure what the motive is. But eyewitnesses did tell the police that the man in red did not do anything to provoke the attack. And in fact, if you look back at the footage, you do see the man in the silver vehicle clearly cut off the man in the red. So, I don`t get it.
PINSKY: And Tiffanie, again, you know, it can be somebody delusional or manic, you know, mental health situation, could be somebody intoxicated. But it could be just --
HENRY: Or could be somebody just an asshole, Dr. Drew.
HENRY: There`s no excuse for this type of behavior.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I read something about he -- the gentleman had a confrontation with somebody in a dark civic. It happened in Vegas. The plates are California plates. Somebody is bound to come forward at some point. But it definitely looked intentional. This guy slowed down, then turned into this victim. If you look, he turns into him.
HUTT: Yes. Purposefully.
BARBERIE: Absolutely intentional. So, either way, it`s, you know --
PINSKY: Speak of intentional, did Mike send any of his love pictures?
BARBERIE: No, zero point zero.
HUTT: I`m waiting. I`m waiting for that.
PINSKY: But Mike, you were laughing at this. Come on now, what are you laughing at?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, RADIO & TV HOST: Actually, there`s nothing to laugh at. I mean, I`m glad to hear that the guy`s OK. But I don`t know what else there is to say. I mean, a guy getting hit by a car and we don`t know --
CATHERWOOD: We don`t know. There doesn`t seem to be any reason behind it.
PINSKY: All right. Toronto`s crack mayor, Rob Ford, still a big celebrity in Canada. He was swarmed by fans, celebrating the Canadian hockey team`s gold medal. And he had an unfortunate run-in with a fire hydrant, apparently -- Jillian.
BARBERIE: Why do you always come to me?
PINSKY: You`re a Canadian!
BARBERIE: Well, no, wait. OK. Yes, he is a short guy. So, it is crotch level, in the crotchal region. It is not -- but, you know, I will speak for my Canadian families. He is not representative of all of them.
PINSKY: I understand, but he`s still loved up there in Canada.
BARBERIE: By some.
PINSKY: And he can`t stay out of trouble.
SCAHCHER: Yes. I don`t know about that. I think it`s by some.
PINSKY: Mike, have we ever talked about him? What do you make of him?
CATHERWOOD: I think that I`d be so happy if what`s his -- Eric Garcetti, is that L.A.`s mayor now, I`d be so happy if he walked around smoking crack and doing plenty stuff. He doesn`t do anything. Outside New York City -- mayors in big cities -- outside New York City, mayors in big cities in the United States don`t do anything. They`re just like kind of puppets. So, at least, it`d be cool if they can, you know, get drunk and smoke a little rock.
BARBERIE: OK. There`s something endearing about his honesty, but I think it comes from the fact that he`s an addict, unfortunately.
PINSKY: Hold on.
PINSKY: Mike, finish.
CATHERWOOD: On a serious note, he is a guy who`s obviously very committed to eating because I used to smoke rock. And you are not --
PINSKY: Mike, I got to go. Up next, up next, I want to talk to you and probably two segments about something my daughter talked publicly about today. And I will show you a little snippet from "New Day," and I`ll tell you my thoughts when we come back.
PINSKY: We begin our series "Hooked: My Crazy Obsessions." I`m back with Jenny, Mike, and Jillian, and Sam. And we`re taking a look at bronies, men obsessed with the characters from "My Little Pony" cartoon. Now joining us is Jennings Wynn, a bronie, self-proclaimed bronie who dresses up like his favorite character, Rainbow Dash.
Now, Jenny, I imagining, first of all, that rainbow is a purple bronie judging by the lovely purple, the violet there. So, explain this. I can`t --
JENNINGS WYNN, "MY LITTLE PONY" LOVER: What I`m wearing now is actually not my Rainbow Dash outfit. That`s the blue outfit that you`ve got photos of. This is Spike the Dragon, his twilight`s purple`s assistant. So, there`s a whole bunch of character.
PINSKY: Of course. Of course it is. There is your Bronie outfit.
BARBERIE: I have a question.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Jillian. OK. It`s cute for my six-year-old daughter. It`s just plain creepy on a man. Do you have a girlfriend? Do you still live at home? What`s your story?
HUTT: In a basement?
WYNN: Well, you know, I`m gay.
BARBERIE: You know what? You do have a good of a pass.
WYNN: Most bronies are actually heterosexual. There are less gay bronies.
WYNN: So, the whole bronie culture is really, you know, as men, we`re supposed to like be as big as He-Man and just like destroy things all the time. And I think that the mail draw to my little phony is that, you know, we get to watch something fun that has some level of, you know, compassion and color.
WYNN: And something that isn`t, you know --
BARBERIE: for little girls.
SCHACHER: OK. What is the big difference between being a Bronie and then, say, dressing up in cosplay for a convention like Comicon. Is there sexual undertones or meet-ups (ph)? I`m just curious.
PINSKY: Because Sam`s got a plan.
WYNN: Not with Bronie culture. Not that --
WYNN: -- not as far as the sexual question.
PINSKY: But I have heard that these kinds of pony obsessions -- Mike, back me up on this -- go to kind of strange places. And I can`t get my head around it. I don`t understand it. Mike, help me.
CATHERWOOD: Well, Dr. Drew, are you referring to my ponytail butt plug?
PINSKY: Well, that was -- I know you had one. I was not referring to that. I just know that`s the kind of stuff that people get into. Someone --
CATHERWOOD: Yes. It`s pretty sweet.
HUTT: Great, Mike.
PINSKY: I`m wondering if Jennings, does that connect for him or is this purely just some sort of play like a child would play?
WYNN: Sexual horseplay and being a fan of a show are two different things.
WYNN: And so this is -- you know, the brony culture is really built around the latest incarnation of my Little Pony friendship as magic the show. So, it has a lot more to do with something like a Comicon or, you know, that sort of fandom.
SCHACHER: I get it.
PINSKY: Sam gets it. Jillian didn`t get it. Jillian, go ahead.
BARBERIE: I`m still not buying it. Again, it`s cute for a five-year- old little girl. It`s just really creepy on a guy. I`m sorry, gay or not.
PINSKY: Mike, last question. Mike, got to go. Mike, one last question.
CATHERWOOD: I just -- what has made "My Little Pony" in particular become so popular again? I didn`t know it was even that popular of a show when it was first airing.
SCHACHER: Yes, it was.
CATHERWOOD: What is it about "My Little Pony" that makes it so popular?
WYNN: It`s the newest incarnation, specifically. But there`s some nostalgia from it.
PINSKY: All right. We have to leave it at that. Recall back the childhood. Speaking of childhood, I`ve got something to talk about my own children after this. "Last Call" is next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obviously, my father works in mental health. And so, I knew what I needed to do to take care of myself. And it got to the point where I didn`t want to live like that anymore. And I put myself in therapy and I`ve been in therapy ever since. And I`m two years recovered. I think it`s the part of our culture. We`re thin obsessed and fatphobic. And, you know, it can happen to anybody.
You know, my family isn`t immune. We`re not perfect. You know, we`re put on this pedestal to be this perfect family and we`re not. This can happen to anybody. And you know, even if it`s not an eating disorder, we`re very, very comfortable disorder eating and, you know, very thin obsessed as a nation, but I think that`s a good point to make, that even, you know, Dr. Drew`s daughter can have an eating disorder, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And Jenny, there you go. That`s my daughter Paulina on CNNs "New Day." She will join us tomorrow to discuss this further. It`s intense. We had no idea -- we`ve known about it for a while now. But, you know, she was a competitive athlete. In fact, when you guys showed the ice skating pictures alongside of us here.
You sent us a very nice tweet over the weekend, Jenny. I`m so proud of her for getting help and getting -- engaging in treatment and now being able to --
HUTT: And speaking out.
PINSKY: And speaking out but speaking out in order to help other people. So, this doesn`t become a stigma. It is an illness that people hide. She hid it and she doesn`t want other people to live with the shame and the hiding. And people should be -- no matter who you are, it can happen to. We can have physical illness. I have prostate cancer -- mental health issues. None of us are immune.
Here we go. "Right This Minute" starts right this minute.