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Did Woman Murder Husband With Hammer?

Aired February 25, 2014 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, he was hit with a hammer and killed. His wife is on trial for murder. Was sex behind the crime?

A woman who can answer the question is here.

Then, a chest pocket bible stops three bullets from penetrating a man`s chest. Miracle, chance, luck?

UNIDENTFIED MALE: We don`t allow for the possibility of miracles, Dr. Drew.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are no such thing as miracles.

PINSKY: The behavior bureau debates.

Plus, the fixation with women`s breasts. It is not just men who are obsessed with size. You`ll see what I mean.

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host is Sirius XM Radio Jenny Hutt.

And coming up, we will be talking a bit about women, and women and body issues.

Jenny, my daughter Paulina is going to join me tonight and do the only interview that we will do together. She`s been talking publicly about her eating disorder. She`s not ashamed to discuss it and she has very strong feelings about the messages that women get.

And, in fact, Jenny, you -- when she began talking about it, you had a strong reaction.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Well, yes, I think, find me a girl, Dr. Drew, who doesn`t have food, body and mommy issues and you`ll be -- I don`t -- that would be a miracle.

PINSKY: Well, I`m really proud of her and anxious to talk to her and we`ll see what she`s got to say.

But, first up, I`ve got a woman who could be sentenced to death if she`s found guilty of murdering her husband with a hammer while he slept. She says he was a violent sexually abusive guy. His friends, his friends and family say that`s a damn lie. And they are here tonight to defend him.

Take a look at this.

HUTT: Wow.


MARISSA DEVAULT: I didn`t mean to do it.

PINSKY: A woman confessed to murdering her husband with a hammer.

DEVAULT: I was so tired of the sexual abuse. I didn`t mean to do it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Admitted to brutally attacking her 34-year-old husband.

INTERROGATOR: So basically every day you guys had sex?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know if it was violent sexual activity. It could have just been rough sex.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She claimed her husband had choked her.

DEVAULT: I woke up to -- to this.

This (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is mine. It`s the one I remember the most.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rolling out these allegations of abuse so they can use that to get out of their murder charges.

INTERROGATOR: How did he hit you?

DEVAULT: With a fist.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her former lover, I guess at this point, testified. This man, Allen Flores is his name, 20 years older than she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say they found child porn on his computer.

PINSKY: We know that Marissa owed him $300,000. For what, I don`t get, and apparently discussed hiring a hitman with him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Devault couldn`t pay Flores, she hatched a plan to kill her husband.

PINSKY: It`s so reminiscent of cutting someone`s throat and shooting them and stabbing in the back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Marissa Devault, Jodi Arias, both admitted to killing their lovers.


PINSKY: Joining us to discuss, this is a big night for me, Jim Jefferies, my favorite comedian, actor, star of my favorite television show, "Legit". Season two premieres tomorrow night on FFX at 10:00 a.m.

And, Jim, thank you for allowing me to be a part of that particular premiere and making a guest appearance with Mike Catherwood, you guys know from the show. Thank you for that, sir.

JIM JEFFERIES, COMEDIAN: Thank you for having me on this show.

PINSKY: You got it.

JEFFERIES: Your acting was tremendous.

PINSKY: Thank you. Let the public be the judge of that. You kind of gave us the DVD. I showed Anahita the appearance. She was discussing the nuances of my --

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: I was thoroughly impressed, Dr. Drew, thoroughly impressed with your acting skills.

JEFFERIES: He was playing himself, so he should have been good at it.

PINSKY: She noticed I was actually acting.


PINSKY: It`s satire.

All right. I`ve also got Jenna Owens joining us for the first time. She`s co-host of Dish Nation and Kidd Kraddick in the morning.

Anahita, who we`ve already heard from, defense attorney.

And Segun Oduolowu, social commentator.

Marissa claimed her husband was physically and sexually abusive to the extreme. Take a look at this tape.


INTERROGATOR: So he hit you across the face with his hand?

DEVAULT: I woke up in the middle of the night (INAUDIBLE) and I couldn`t open it because it was so swollen.

He`s a good backhander, too.



PINSKY: And yet, Jenna, she is laughing and seemingly expressing some delight or glee talking about a horrible thing?

JENNA OWENS, CO-HOST, "KIDD KRADDICK IN THE MORNING": You know, look, I`m not criminal body language expert here, but just watching her in that interrogation room. Between the sleeping, I mean, it`s (AUDIO GAP) disrespectful.

Maybe this is a very minute detail that I notice, but in the crime scene photos, the evidence is in her nails. Do you see her perfectly manicured red nails? It`s like -- it fits the crime. The color matches what she did.

I`m a girl. We paint our nails to match our mood.

PINSKY: Jen, I`m a little freaked out by that. I don`t know about you.

HUTT: Wow.

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, Jenna, I know you are not a body language specialist but I didn`t know that nail polish gave away murders. If it did, that would be great for the legal system.

But to be honest with you, Dr. Drew, domestic violence isn`t anything to really laugh about or sexual abuse anything to really joke about. I have a hard time believing this woman only because while she claims all this sexual abuse was going on she was carrying on an affair with another man.

And in her deposition she talks about, you know, sex four times a week. OK. Four times a week, you know, great. Then you still have enough energy to carry on an affair. You are still being abused. And this man that you`re having an affair with, he doesn`t see the alleged abuse that`s going on.

So, I have a hard time believing her.


PINSKY: Wait, I want to hear from Jim first.

Jim, go ahead.

JEFFERIES: It doesn`t sound like he was abusive to her. He just had rough sex with her.


JEFFERIES: Rough sex isn`t abuse. If he is abusing her outside the sex, then that is something.

What they really needed was like a safety word that wasn`t hammer.

PINSKY: Maybe they had that.

I think, Anahita, what Segun is saying that there are all of the other extenuating circumstances, the $300,000 she owes the boyfriend, the fact that there is a boyfriend, the fact that she allegedly discussed a hitman with the boyfriend.

What do you say to that?

SEDAGHATFAR: Let`s talk about the boyfriend, Dr. Drew. First of all, here is exhibit a for the prosecution, the hammer. But if --

PINSKY: What color are your fingernails? Hold your fingernails, I need to see that.

SEDAGHATFAR: I have pink on.

ODUOLOWU: Hopefully not black and green.

PINSKY: Yes. So, Segun, you better run out of that room.

SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, if the prosecution`s star witness is the secret boyfriend, then they are not going to make their murder one charge because, look, he has admitted to having watched child porn. It was downloaded on his computer.

OK, the defense is going to have a field day with him on the stand. They are going to get him to admit they had child porn and that he`s getting immunity in this case to testify against his ex girlfriend.

So I don`t know about you, but when you hear that someone watches and downloads child porn, I don`t think you are going to give much credence to that individual`s testimony.

PINSKY: Well, let me bring in -- I want to bring in somebody who knew the victim. On the phone, I have Gina Iser. She dated Marissa`s husband Dale when they were in high school.

Gina, what is your reaction to these claims that she is making that he was sexually or physically abusive?

GINA ISER, VICTIM`S EX-GIRLFRIEND (via telephone): Dr. Drew, thank you for having me. I think they are absurd that she is a victim of domestic violence. I was a victim, myself, of domestic violence and a survivor now. And her reaction there and -- when she was being questioned is absurd.

PINSKY: It is inconsistent.

So, you say Dale was never violent. What did you -- did you have concerns about Marissa before this all happened?

ISER: No. I didn`t know Marissa very well. I saw her in school. I do have friends that said she was kind of not all there and a bit of a psycho case.

But I didn`t have one-on-one dealings with her. I do know Dale very well. He was not abusive. He was fun, loving, caring. He makes people laugh and always had a smile on his face.

So, those behaviors when he was 17, 18 years old when I was close to him, I can`t imagine that he turned into a monster and was abusive to her.

PINSKY: Gina, hold on one second.

Jenny, you seem to have a look of incredulity on your face. What do you think of what Gina said?

HUTT: Listen, I think what Gina is saying is probably spot on. I`m actually going back to something that Jim said before, that kind of upset me which was that he was saying if it is rough sex, that it can`t be abuse. I mean, rough sex can be abusive if it`s not consensual. But that`s not what I think was here.

PINSKY: That`s not what she is saying. Jim, respond.

JEFFERIES: I`m meaning that I think they had rough sex with each other and it was consensual and now she`s bringing it up. Now to the lady ringing in who was the high school boyfriend, I think she`s telling the truth, but let`s be honest, I was a gentle lover when I was 17, as well. It goes downhill as you get older.

ODUOLOWU: Jim, if I may ask Jim a really quick question because I kind of agree with you to a certain extent that if it was rough sex which is very different than abuse, I just think that a former girlfriend from high school isn`t really the best judge of character to what he is now. And since you didn`t really know -- since you didn`t really know the lady in question from high school, I don`t think that we should start painting people with brushes that they are bad or good.

PINSKY: We are going to get the defense attorney going, Segun.

Go ahead, Anahita. Go ahead.

SEDAGHATFAR: You got me going. Thank you, Dr. Drew.

She is not just claiming sexual abuse here. She is claiming physical abuse. I think this case is different than Jodi Arias. We might even have a different outcome, because in this particular case, this girl has evidence to corroborate her claims. Jodi had nothing but her own testimony which was completely not credible. And so, you know, there might be a different outcome here.


JEFFERIES: That he abused her, that she killed him. Why not just leave the man?

SEDAGHATFAR: Well, it`s part of battered women`s syndrome. That is exactly part of the battered women syndrome --


PINSKY: Listen, LaViolette will have a field day with this.

Gina, go ahead. Finish up and we`ve got to go. What`s your last comment?

ISER: I completely disagree about battered women syndrome. She was laughing, she was carrying on, she was not a victim of domestic violence.

PINSKY: So, OK, Gina, I`ve got to leave it there. You, as a victim yourself, looked at her glee and her glib attitude and her smiling and inappropriate laughter at what should have been a horrible report as evidence. Plus, the boyfriend, plus, the debt, plus, the hitman -- there`s a lot of stuff, defense attorney Anahita, that goes against her.

SEDAGHATFAR: It just takes one, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: You have your work cut out for you.

Hold on. Up next, I have the victim`s aunt who will join us with her insight to the killing.

And later, do you believe in miracles? I know Segun does. A man is shot point blank in the chest and saved when his bible in his pocket stops the bullets.

We`ll be right back.



INTERROGATOR: You wake up and he`s raping you. Hands around your neck.

DEVAULT: He pinches here and makes it so I can`t swallow.


DEVAULT: No, he didn`t.


PINSKY: Jenny and I are back.

That is Marissa Devault, who has admitted to killing her husband with a hammer while he slept. It`s hard to understand how she could claim herself defense, but again, we`re trying to get our head around.

I have a tweet first, Jenny, here from Robyn Lynn. "I`m not buying Marissa`s story. I think she is taking a page from Jodi Arias and lying about the abuse."

Let`s bring in the behavior bureau.

Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, Samantha Schacher, social commentator, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks network, Wendy Walsh, psychotherapist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox", Janine Driver, human lie detector, author of "You Can`t Lie To Me."

Leeann, what do you think? Does she seem like an abused woman?

LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: No. Absolutely not. After watching those videotapes of her speaking in the interrogation and the way she was laughing. And it seems like she told one thing, I think my room mate did it and then admits that she did it.

And I don`t know -- there are all of these things about a life insurance policy and that she was in debt to the guy that`s supposedly her lover while she was married. I mean, there`s so many things seem bad in her defense. I don`t know, something is very fishy.

PINSKY: Wendy, do you agree?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, not necessarily. I`m going to take an issue here because there is no profile of a battered woman personality wise. Some of them because they have been battered, because they`ve been sexually abused actually act tough, actually act like they have no feelings.

I`m thinking back to, because I covered every minute of the OJ Simpson trial. Nicole Brown Simpson to many people it was shocking the abuse that she had suffered because she seemed so cool and confident in the outside.

PINSKY: But she claimed, Jenny -- you want to finish, Jenny?

HUTT: Yes, I just want to say that I think there`s tons of motives here on her part and also she was friends with Jodi Arias, Wendy. They knew each other. They have been in the same prison.


PINSKY: They were pals. They just hung out together? I mean, that`s bizarre.

HUTT: They knew each other in prison.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: There is no evidence, though, that supports her claim of these domestic violence allegations. The people that she told investigators witnessed her being abused, none of them can support her statement. So, she is a liar, cold blooded killer. I`m sick of her smearing her deceased husband`s name after bludgeoned him to death. It`s just like what Jodi Arias did to Travis Alexander.

PINSKY: I want to get what Janine is saying where she claims her husband woke up and forced himself on her the night he was killed. Have a look.


DEVAULT: I woke up to -- to this. And he was bent over a little bit lower. And he wasn`t very polite to me.


DEVAULT: This (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is mine. It`s the one I remember the most, something about (EXPLETIVE DELETED).


DEVAULT: And the next thing I see is -- I saw hammer going into Dale`s head.


PINSKY: And laughing about it, Janine, laughing about a hammer going into her husband`s head.

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Well, so that laughing is what we often call duping delight. Now, we`ve got to be careful with laughter where it is inappropriate, because sometimes laughter can be there because, Dr. Drew, it`s embarrassment. But here there is nothing embarrassing that she`s talking about.

What I am suspicious of here, Dr. Drew, is she`s void of all emotions.


DRIVER: So, you`re reliving, as you know, I`m a battered survivor. I dated a lawyer that beat the living day lights out of me. When I recount what he did, he threw a jar of gravy at the back of my head and jumped on the stairs and strangling me against me the door, literally my feet were off the ground, that was 20 years ago. I was a young 20-year-old kid. I like I hear my heart race sharing the story.

So, we are void of the emotion. Now, some battered women can control that. But the void of emotion, the laughing, which can be duping delight, possibly embarrassment, I doubt it here. What we don`t see in this clip, what we see actually in this interrogation, Dr. Drew, is she brings out the steepling pose. You see Donald Trump do this in the board room when he says you are fired. Right here, you`ll see Oprah Winfrey.

This is extreme confidence. The only time we see it in jail cells, because you know I`m retired with law enforcement with the Justice Department, the only time we see it is with gang bangers, people who have massive power and prestige, it`s like I`m getting one over on you. When you steeple people you intimidate people. And she brings out the steeple.

The combination of steepling, void of emotions, laughing, they showed blocking we see her doing often times is just adding up to her pants are on fire.

PINSKY: Liar, liar pants on fire.


PINSKY: OK. I want to speak now to Cindy Miles. She`s Dale`s aunt.

And, Cindy, on behalf of the behavior bureau, I just want to tell you how sorry we are for the tragedy and maybe you can help us.

When was the last time you talked to Dale? Did you have concerns of Marissa before this went down?

CINDY MILES, VICTIM`S AUNT (via telephone): I talked to Dale three months before this happened. And I believe it was 2008, before this happened, my sister called me and said that, you know, she can`t talk to Dale, she won`t let him talk. She keeps answering the phone. And she wasn`t allowed to go over there.

And so, I called Dale and asked Dale how he was. She picked up the phone. And she said, who it is? He said, it`s my aunt.

So, he was talking to me. And that was it. And I called my sister back and said, you know, I just talked to him. And then this happened.

PINSKY: What, so you thought you immediately knew it was Marissa, is that right?

MILES: Marissa, yes.

PINSKY: What were you thinking when you tried back three months prior when you did speak to him, what did you think was going on there? What were your thoughts about Marissa at that point?

MILES: I thought maybe she was isolating Dale.

PINSKY: Why do you think? Why do you think she was doing that? Did you try to understand what was going on and couldn`t figure it out?

MILES: I just couldn`t figure out what was going on. And then it happened. I was at work and got a phone call from my sister and she told me what happened. I said, no way. But I thought -- I didn`t think he was going to die. I thought he was going to still leave, you know?

PINSKY: You thought he would just leave her eventually.

MILES: I didn`t know it was that bad. I found that out because he was a loving guy. He was everything. He was funny, loving. He was not abusive like she is saying he is.


SCHACHER: Cindy, I have a question for you. My name is Sam.

Did Marissa possess likable qualities? When you hung out with her, did you like her? Or did you think something was off for the get-go?

MILES: I thought something was off from the get-go. I wasn`t introduced (ph) even to Marissa. She was just -- I never knew her. I never hung out with her or anything.

PINSKY: Wendy, it seems to me, again, we are getting back into the sort of borderline conversation where it is extreme splitting. There, she talks about blacking out in a rage. That all kind of hangs together for me. Does it for you?

WALSH: Well, I don`t know what to believe or not before I begin to try to diagnose this young woman. But I will tell you one thing I`m hearing from the aunt. You know, relationships are supposed to be a bridge between families. When two people marry they are supposed to bring families together.

When a relationship creates isolation, this is when red flags go up for me.

PINSKY: Well, it`s like coercion and control. It is like a cult. One person is being controlled. That is where domestic violence does break out.

But I don`t think he was the perpetrator. We think the murderer was the perpetrator. That`s the thing I feel about Jodi Arias. I mean, they`re the ones doing the killing guys.

All right. Panel, thank you.

Thank you so much, Cindy. Again, we are so sorry. Thank you for sharing this. Hopefully, it will help people understand what`s going on here and not to have second thoughts about what happened to your nephew.


PINSKY: Next up, I have a man shot in the chest and possibly saved by a bible. Divine intervention? Luck? Chance?

And later, I have my own daughter Paulina here. We will be talking about her decision to open -- there she is in ice skating -- about her eating disorder. It is the only interview she and I will do together. There she is, she, myself and my wife. And we want you stick around for that.

Don`t go away.


PINSKY: I am back with Jenny, and Jim, Jenna, Anahita, and Segun.

And a reminder, Jim, at attention here, buddy, I`m going to give a plug for your show. It`s FXX, Wednesday night 10:00 p.m., my favorite show, and myself and Mike Catherwood on the premiere. So, please don`t miss that tomorrow night.

Switching to a new story, a bus driver has the bible to thank for stopping two bullets to his chest, Segun, a champion of this story. Rick Wagoner (ph) stepped off the bus to check on malfunction when three guys came at him. The first part of the story from WHIO-TV. Take a look.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three young men approached them, at least one of them had a gun, another had a knife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a bus driver at RTA. I got shot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was shot twice in the chest and the two bullets were stopped by a New Testament book that he had in his shirt pocket.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bullets hit a new testament in his pocket and did not penetrate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wagoner just bought his copy of the message version of the New Testament about a week ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got a book in the pocket in my pocket and I don`t think they made through this book. It just feels like I was hit with a sledgehammer to the chest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He reportedly (INAUDIBLE) the suspect`s gun away, firing at them, as they ran to their getaway car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God works in mysterious ways.


PINSKY: Segun, let`s be fair. I think the producer selected this story for you.

ODUOLOWU: Absolutely.


ODUOLOWU: Well, Dr. Drew, I just want to know finally is Anahita ready to believe in miracles? Because we quite literally have divine intervention. This man believes in his faith so much that he actually carries the word of God in his pocket and it protects him from two bullets.

SEDAGHATFAR: Physics. Segun, one word: physics. Have you heard of physics?

ODUOLOWU: So, physics.

SEDAGHATFAR: Whether you believe in miracles, like Segun apparently does, thinking miracles happen like every day every time you turn your head --

ODUOLOWU: They do.

SEDAGHATFAR: -- which is ridiculous, or if you believe in divine intervention or just luck, Dr. Drew, I`m just glad that this guy is still alive. I mean, he was shot three times in point blank range, twice in the chest, once in the leg. And he was stabbed and yet, he managed to turn the tables, he managed to get the gun, get the knife. And guess who ran away like three little cowards? These three want to be gang members ran off like cowards.

JEFFERIES: They are not cowards. They just shot a guy. It`s pretty --

SEDAGHATFAR: They are exactly cowards. Three little boys --

JEFFERIES: They are extraordinary bad people. I think using the word "coward" wrong.

ODUOLOWU: Actually, Jim, to be fair, I think they are cowards. I mean, you shoot a bus driver that is cowardly.


PINSKY: How an Australian would see the bible intervention?

JEFFERIES: First of all, it`s not a miracle. It`s a bible. We should be saying -- it`s nothing to do with God. It`s got to do with books. No one has ever been saved by a Kindle.

There was a woman --


JEFFERIES: A woman three years ago got saved by a weave in the back of the head. She was shot in the back of the head and the weave stop that. Is that still a miracle from God?

ODUOLOWU: Well, in the neighborhoods that I go -- in the neighborhoods I live in, sometimes a really good weave is a miracle. But I`m --


ODUOLOWU: I will say this, though, Jim. I will say this, though. The beauty of faith is whether you have it -- all you have to do is have it. It cost you nothing to have it. In this case, it saved a man`s life.

PINSKY: Jenna, let`s see where you come down. Settle the score. Jenna, where do you come down on this?

OWENS: OK. First thing here, this is like the cliff`s notes of the bible. This is a contemporary issue of the bible.


ODUOLOWU: OK. So, because it was the New Testament, it`s not really the bible. OK.

OWENS: No. Not that, but let`s just -- I mean, let`s just put this in perspective, all right? I have a couple of bullet points for you, if that`s OK, no pun intended.


OWENS: Do you know back in -- you know, in World War II, how many veterans have claimed that there are like liquor flasks and cigarette cases in their pocket saved their lives protecting them from bullets. You don`t hear the sigs getting credit for saving lives. Cigarettes saved their lives.

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Who cares what saved his life? This guy survived. I mean, who cares if it was because of the bible or it was a book or it was a pen? Who cares? He survived. And at the end of the day, I hope the police catch these guys and put them away.

PINSKY: I would tell you there is a very spiritual piece to this, because I`ve spoken to a lot of people who have survived this sort of extraordinary circumstances where they should have died. And they all will say the same thing. They feel like their purpose on Earth has now been sort of clarified or enhanced. They feel like they survived for a reason.

ODUOLOWU: Dr. Drew, you`re a medical doctor. I mean, there are some things that aren`t really explainable.

PINSKY: Listen, absolutely. It`s a 100 percent.


PINSKY: I just want to say that -- this man, if he`s like all the other people I`ve spoken to that been through sort of experience, he will be inspired.


ODUOLOWU: I`m going to pray for you, Anahita.


SEDAGHATFAR You don`t need to pray for me, Segun. I`m fine. Thank you.

PINSKY: That spiritual element is enough for me. I don`t need to -- there lots of things bigger than all of us and here we go.

Up next, my daughter, Pauleen, is here to discuss a very courageous, courageous decision to talk publicly about her eating disorder as well as her crusade to help in the social messages about women`s bodies and the issues that have been created. We`ll have a panel here to meet with her. This is the only interview that she and I will be doing together. So, please don`t miss it. We`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr. Drew has a family struggle of his own.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even the daughter of Dr. Drew can have an eating disorder. Paulina who attends Barnard College, the first talked about her struggles with anorexia and bulimia in her university newspaper.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suffering from what she called the weight of perfection.

PAULINA PINSKY, DAUGHTER OF DR. DREW PINSKY: It can happen to anybody. You know, my family isn`t immune. We`re not perfect. You know, we`re put on this pedestal to be this perfect family and we`re not.


PINSKY: And I`m back with Jenny and joining us is my daughter, Paulina. And Paulina, again, we are so proud of you as you and I discussed publicly and privately. I`m proud that you got yourself help. Oh-oh. Paulina doesn`t hear me. Well, I`m going to keep telling her anyway. When she hears this back, she`ll hopefully hear it that -- yes, I know -- that I appreciate that she got herself and that she is engaged in treatment and that now she is attempting to help other people with her cause.

I`m hoping that we can get somebody from the control room there in New York to get her IFB fixed. And Paulina, when you hear us, just raise your hand. Jenny, when the story first broke, you had quite a strong reaction, sent me a long text.


PINSKY: I`ll give you a chance to talk to Paulina, hopefully, soon.

HUTT: Right. But listen, Dr. Drew, I feel like most women, many if not most women have some sort of issue with food and their bodies and their mothers. I know I did. I lost my mom 5-1/2 years ago, but throughout my childhood, Dr. Drew, she drove me bananas about my body. And then, as I got older and I got to really see who my mother was, it became clearer and clearer to me that it was really about her issues and she loved me so, so much she couldn`t separate.

So, her insecurities sort of became mine. And as I grew up, we developed the most terrific relationship. And I think it`s crummy that the press picked out a little piece of your daughter`s wonderful post rather than showing all of it which was about healing and great strides that she`s made and your wife has made.

PINSKY: Well, I think, Paulina, I think you hear Jenny right now. Go ahead and tell people what caused all the excitement.

PAULINA PINSKY: Sorry about that. I saw my face on there and I didn`t hear it coming --

PINSKY: It`s all good. It`s all good.


PINSKY: You handled it like a pro. It`s happened stuff like that on the show all the time. Tell people why --

PAULINA PINSKY: Oh no. I can`t hear again.

PINSKY: Oh, that`s fantastic. That is a new problem. That is a new level of technical difficulties. Actually, I`m delighted to share this with you, Paulina. This is the first time we`ve had this much trouble. Can you hear me now?

PAULINA PINSKY: This is a really great bonding experience.

PINSKY: Why don`t you tell us what led to all the excitement in the press? Go ahead.

PAULINA PINSKY: Well, I actually wrote a piece last November in "Columbia Spectator," The Eye. And, when I first published it, I was like, OK. There`s a chance that this could go on a national level, but nothing happened. So, on Sunday, I got a tweet saying nice "New York Post" article. And, I did not know about this "New York Post" article. So, it`s been a little bit of a surprise. But I`m happy to talk about it. And so, I`m not ashamed about it at all.

PINSKY: And tell people about your basic message to women. I mean, I know you feel very passionately about the organizations you are supporting at Columbia.

PAULINA PINSKY: Right. So, right now, I`m organizing a body positive and eating disorder awareness week with the Club Active Mine (ph). So, basically, my message is that body image is something that all women and men, also, not just women, but from my experience, obviously, I can only speak for women, body to something that everyone struggles with.

And just because you don`t have an eating disorder doesn`t mean that you aren`t affected by it. So, I just want people to be able to talk about it. I want this to be something that we can all work on together because it impacts everybody.

PINSKY: I want to bring in Sam and Wendy who in the make-up boot (ph). Sam, you had a very strong reaction to exactly that message.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. Body image shaming is all over the place especially on the internet and on YouTube. And I have a YouTube channel. And, boy, you look in the comment section and the people that are on my show including myself are either too fat or too skinny. I`m often judged for being too thin, but this is who I am.

But that doesn`t stop them from calling me Olive Oil or scarecrow or go eat a sandwich. And it`s hurtful. Why can`t we lift people up instead of break them down? So, I commend you, Paulina, for speaking out and trying to break down this stigma and redefine the mold. It needs to happen because it`s so damaging.

PINSKY: And Wendy, you`re a pro. You`ve seen the issues. You and I talked off the air about how happy I was that she was able to access and get and embrace treatment which treatment works. Things happen in families. I have prostate cancer. Because I`m an internist doesn`t mean I didn`t get prostate cancer. I got it. Stuff happens. S happens in our lives. Yes.

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: We`re human beings. Paulina, I want to say something about your mom to help you understand what she is going through. When my daughter was nine years old, she got precocious puberty which I should know, Dr. Drew, raises the estrogen and with the estrogen comes body weight, and so, I felt ashamed.

I felt ashamed because I thought my friends were thinking that I was a bad mom and I was overfeeding my kid. So, I started to try to do food portioning. I started to try to force her to exercise. And by the time she was 12, she sobbed and sobbed and said "mommy, everyone hates me because they think I`m fat."

And at that moment, I realized the damage I was doing to my child and at that moment I stopped and I realized my job is just to love my child. So, I want you understand -- and by the way, she`s now a competitive cheerleader. She`s lost 20 pounds. She`s -- she`s 5`10". She looks fabulous.

But the point is that we have to have compassion because this is not just a disease, Paulina, for like young women who are having to deal with photoshopped pictures. It`s the mothers who also feel the shame and the pressure from other mothers.


PINSKY: Well, and then, whatever your mom transmitted to you -- Paulina`s pointed out before these are multi-generational problems. And it`s time -- I`m so proud of you for trying to get it to stop. Paulina, I`m going to give you the stage last thoughts and then we got to wrap it up.

PAULINA PINSKY: Well, I have a question for you, sir.


WALSH: Do you really call him sir?


PAULINA PINSKY: Sir Pinsky, excuse me, I got a question. I want to know what you felt when you first read my piece? Obviously, it`s a challenging piece and it couldn`t have been easy for you. So, really -- yes.


PINSKY: OK. OK. So, as far as -- I have my own mental health issue. I have an anxiety disorder. And so, what it triggered was my anxiety, my fear that you were struggling, you were in pain, you were going to -- that you were be in pain and that you aren`t going to get well or that this was somehow going to be something that caused you distress. So, it triggered all my anxiety and co-dependent stuff, which is my pathology. And thankfully, I didn`t dump that on you, I hope, but that`s --


PINSKY: Yes. So, there you go.

WALSH: No, he dumped it on us.


PINSKY: Part two. Sam shares this disorder. Part two?

PAULINA PINSKY: So, obviously, I`ve been able to handle this whole storm of everything, but I`m curious as to how you`re feeling right now because, you know, all of these articles have your face on it. It`s not my face -- your name.

PINSKY: Yes. It triggered my anxiety again, as I said, and my first reaction was to want to hide because I didn`t want anybody to get hurt you or your mom or anybody. But, I actually feel like it couldn`t have gone better because I feel --


PINSKY: I didn`t know you had this ability to get up in front of national cameras. No, I didn`t know. And you have it.

PAULINA PINSKY: I didn`t know either.

PINSKY: You didn`t know either. That`s right.


PINSKY: And nothing makes me happier than -- well, you described it on the CNN morning show as making lemons from lemonade. I describe it as being of service and making a difference. And I think you`ve made a difference. And so, whatever we are going to do as a family, we can always find meaning in what you`ve done here and I say thank you.


PINSKY: How about that?


PINSKY: All right.

PAULINA PINSKY: That`s great.

PINSKY: All right. I`ll see you later. I`ll talk to you and we can cry afterwards.


PAULINA PINSKY: We don`t have to do it over national television --

PINSKY: Yes, we could. They like -- the producers like that.


PINSKY: All right, guys. We`ll take a break and be right back.


PINSKY: Back with jenny. And now, we`re going to get to Toronto`s crack mayor, Rob Ford. He says he`s made big changes in his life. of course, they don`t include substance abuse treatment or -- yes, I mean, he`s -- maybe the gym a little bit. Well, here`s what he told the "Today Show" -- he needs -- "Today Show" on NBC. Here`s what he said.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you used crack cocaine or any other illegal drug?

ROB FORD, TORONTO MAYOR: I don`t use illegal drugs. I experimented with them like probably a year ago. But I don`t use drugs. And, we`re in great shape. Have I had a drink? Yes, I have, but not to the point of some episodes before. So, you know what, that`s past me. And we`re moving on.


PINSKY: Bring in Sam, Leeann, and Janine. And Leeann, you were smiling, really smiling at some of that. What do you say?

LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Only because I think he`s so much more fun to watch when he`s loaded, and I hate to say that.


TWEEDEN: But he`s such a character. If Chris Farley was alive, he would do such a great mayor. But you know, -- you`re the expert on the substance abuse. But for a guy to say, uhm, yes, well, maybe, uhm like a year ago, I did some illegal drugs. But, you know, I`m fine. I`m not even drinking and I`m going to the gym. I mean, really?

PINSKY: It`s worse. It`s worse. He said, "I don`t use drugs, I experiment with them."

TWEEDEN: Right, exactly.

PINSKY: And Janine, you got (INAUDIBLE) with that and the use of the word we as opposed to I.

HUTT: Yes.

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Right. I love it, right? So, he says "I don`t use drugs. We`re doing OK." He had a tongue protrusion. His tongue goes on the inside of his lip like this, this high stress. Any shoulder shrugs which is uncertainty. You know, I really love being on your show, Dr. Drew. I really love it.


DRIVER: Listen, this guy is a mess. I just came back. I taught a six-hour seminar on how to use body language with real estate to increase sales, and I did the faces of Ford. And I put his face on the screen. I did like seven funny faces. And, they went crazy. They laughed. I got to tell you, I asked them, do you think he`s going to get re-elected and I had -- people raised their hands. In Toronto, Canada two weeks ago, they said yes.

PINSKY: They love him. They love his politics.


DRIVER: The bottom line is, he saves them money. He saves the money.

PINSKY: And just because he`s a substance abuser doesn`t mean he`s not a good politician or even --

DRIVER: Who doesn`t use a little crack every now and then, you know?


PINSKY: Janine, we`ll have to talk later if that`s, in fact, true. But Sam, one thing I would tell you about, I mean, he looks less plethoric, that redness and the bloat which comes from heavy alcohol consumption is down. So, he is clearly doing better, but again, these things recur. They don`t go away. They don`t remit if you`re still using.

SCHACHER: Exactly. He can`t just magically cure himself overnight, and he just continues to talk about the gym aspect because he knows in his mind, it`s more socially acceptable to address losing weight rather than dealing with his substance abuse, and that`s such a shame. And you know what, Dr. Drew, I`m just so sick of his lies. Like he only comes forward when somebody proves him wrong --

PINSKY: They never address him directly. Again, it`s hey, hey, cut it out. Answer my (ph) question. They`re walking on egg shells (ph) randomly asking general questions. He obfuscates. He dances around. Janine, last thought then I got to go.

DRIVER: I got to say, when he starts talking about health and wellness and exercising, in my world, that`s called smoke screening. Remember, balloon boy?


PINSKY: Same thing.

DRIVER: The little boy said, "we did it for the show," and the father starts talking about grocery shopping.

PINSKY: That`s right. There you go. A reminder, you can find us anytime on Instagram @DrDrewHLN. Be right back.



PINSKY: A mother who is risking her health and perhaps her family`s well-being to have a record-breaking, what should we say, endowment. If I put this on my chest and tried to lie down, I couldn`t sleep.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have problems sleeping and I have problems getting clothes and stuff, but I`ve been carrying big breasts for my entire life.


PINSKY: Time for this week`s series, "Hooked: My Crazy Obsession." Warning again, we are dealing with adult issues. I`m back with Jenny, Leeann, Sam and Jim. We`ve been discussing women and women`s body image issues. Of course, girls and young women become obsessed and self- conscious very, very early and can lead to extreme weight and eating fluctuations.

Now, I`ve got Lacey Wild. She`s a mom, a model, and a reality TV star who aspires to have the most extreme body in the world. Let`s be fair. Lacey, my concern is you`ve had many, many, many surgeries and you`re taking more and more risks with each surgery and you have more planned. Is that right?

LACEY WILD, MOM/MODEL/REALITY TV STAR: Yes. I have several more planned for my face, my breasts, and my rear end.

PINSKY: And my understanding is that at least one of them specifically they`re going to use sort of black market interventions that could really could kill you.

WILD: Yes. You know, I`ve been against doing black market. I did my lips black market. But, I`m thinking to get the rear end that I want is going to actually go through with the surgery.

PINSKY: Jim, you`re nodding your head as though, oh, OK.

JIM JEFFERIES, ACTOR, "LEGIT": Look, it`s her body. I guess, if that`s what she wants to do, who are we to stop her, but it`s madness, obviously.

PINSKY: Leeann.

JEFFERIES: What size are you now? Like QQQ. Like, if you just keep on going bigger and bigger --

WILD: I`m a LLL.

JEFFERIES: LLL. Eventually, you`ll get back to AA. You`ll get all the way through the alphabet. Everything will be fine.

PINSKY: Maybe we`ll have to add another A. Leeann, your comment.

TWEEDEN: Lacey, I just have a question for you. Has there ever been a doctor in the United States, have they ever said no to anything you`ve asked of them? You know, I`m sure there are probably some doctors that wouldn`t do to you what you`ve had done?

PINSKY: For sure.

JEFFERIES: She used to look like me before --

WILD: Nobody in the United States will do my breasts.

PINSKY: If she looked like Jim -- if she looked like Jim, I`m sort of happy with how things going for her --


PINSKY: Sam, last words here.

SCHACHER: Yes. Lacey, have you dealt with addiction in your life before? Do you have an addictive personality?

WILD: I do have a little bit of an addictive personality, but I don`t think the surgery is an addiction. I have other addictions. It`s not drug addictions.

JEFFERIES: If you are addicted, that`s good. You have a surface to do coke off.

PINSKY: All right. We got to have to leave it there. More of those comments on FXX tomorrow night, 10 o`clock. See me and Jim on "Legit," my favorite show. And happily, I`m participating with him on that. And "Last Call" is next.


PINSKY: Time for the "Last Call" and our tweet of the night. It goes to Sbellamia (ph). It is regarding my daughter, Paulina, "Beautiful, well- spoken, definitely brave to speak out on this issue. Most young women experience something like this." And I think, Jenny, you would agree?

HUTT: Yes, all women. All ages.

PINSKY: We need to talk about it. Thank you so much, everybody.

"Right This Minute" starts right this minute.