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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
Crisis in Ukraine
Aired March 6, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is Piers Morgan Live.
Tonight, breaking news, they're talking with the world watching and waiting for something, anything to stop the crisis in Ukraine.
President Obama talked to Vladimir Putin for an hour today. Is it all just talk or are they actually closer to solving this? I'll talk to somebody who can translate diplomatic to speak and just about anybody else Fareed Zakaria and someone else who's covered tough negotiations since the Nixon Administration, Carl Bernstein.
Plus, the crime is almost unimaginable. A pregnant woman drives her SUV into the ocean with her three young children inside. What was she thinking? I'll ask a top psychiatrist who examined another infamous mom, Andrea Yates.
And can you be a feminist and do porn? She says yes. I'll talk exclusively to the Duke University freshman who says she's staring in adult entertainment to pay the high cost of higher education.
I want to begin though with our Big Story, President Obama and President Putin talking and maybe looking for solution to the crisis in Ukraine.
Joining me now is CNN's Fareed Zakaria and Political contributor Carl Bernstein. Welcome to you both, a stellar double (ph) if ever there was one.
Fareed, we talked all week. I want to play you what President Obama said today about Ukraine and get your reaction to that and his conversation with Vladimir Putin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH AND CURRENT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The proposed referendum on the future of Crimea would violate the Ukrainian Constitution and violate international law. Any discussion about the future of Ukraine must include the legitimate government of Ukraine.
In 2014, we are well beyond the days when borders can be redrawn over the heads of Democratic leaders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Let me ask you this, Fareed, I mean is there a legitimate government in Ukraine now?
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, CNN'S " FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": It's a very good question, Piers, because I was struck by the fact that President Obama invoke the constitution of the Government of Ukraine.
Well, the president of Ukraine was deposed essentially unconstitutionally and they, you know, essentially by street mobs that decided to force him out of office. That is a process for impeaching a president, it was not followed.
So I think that rather than really on legalisms here this is a revolutionary situation, things are moving very fast. The more important thing is that we try to find some kind of political accord. And the principle must be, you cannot annex -- Russia cannot annex Crimea simply by brute force.
There has to be a political negotiation where perhaps Crimea can have some kind of autonomous existence where the special relationship with Russia, the Ukrainian government has to sign off on it, but the Russians have to be involved. That's the only formula that's going to work. And remember, when you have a revolutionary situation and there's legal arguments on every one side. The one thing that matters is force. And Russia has the troops on the ground.
MORGAN: OK. Carl Bernstein, here it seems to me you see conundrum here, I guess for everyone involved in this. I would imagine many people living in Crimea would quite like quite to be part of Russia. I'd imagine many people in Eastern Ukraine would quite like to be part of Russia. Is it not almost inevitable that those two things will evolve over time? And if so, is what Vladimir Putin's doing so wrong?
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: First of all, I don't have a crystal ball and I think Putin doesn't know what's going to happen overtime and that's part of the problem. Nor do we know what's going to happen over time.
With that conversation I'm told between the president and Putin was about tonight. It was very disputatious and it was over just what Fareed was talking about arguing over the legitimacy of the government in Kiev and whether it had taken over, you know, hooligan manner, street demonstrations and the rest, and Putin is saying, "Look, they have no legitimacy." and President Obama is saying, "Yes, they do." and the Russians have to deal with them.
And finally, the president said, "Look, there is an offer up here. We've got to find, it's going to evolve some real autonomy for Crimea. But it has to remain part of the Ukraine."
But let's cut to the chase for a minute, what this is about is that Ukraine was heading out of the Soviet orbit in a hurry, out of the Soviet, out of the Russian orbit in a hurry. Out of its fear of influence and Putin became desperate to reel it back in. And the view in the White House is that Putin doesn't know his endgame yet and that's very worrisome. And his game is to destabilize things and that's what he's doing and doing it quite well but quite dangerously. MORGAN: OK. Let's play a clip from John Kerry who was in Rome. Let's listen to what he had to say today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KERRY, 68TH AND CURRENT VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The Ukrainian people, we are convinced beyond any doubt whatsoever want nothing more than the right to determine their own future. And they want to be able to live freely in safe and prosperous country where they can make the choices that people make in other countries around the world. And they have the international community's full support.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I mean John Kerry seems very certain they're freed, that he knows what the Ukraine people think. But is he right? I mean is there not, again, I repeat what I said earlier, is there not perhaps the possibility here that one of the factors in Putin's favor is that many of the people that supposedly want to become part of Europe actually probably don't.
ZAKARIA: Well, and to add to what you're describing, we have something that's likely to happen. There will be a referendum in Crimea very soon. It is quite likely that the Crimea that that referendum will result in a vote to either be independent or to be part of Russia.
The facts on the ground are already been created. Flights from Crimea to Moscow now take off from the international airport not from the domestic airport. The Russians have asserted control and transform that very quickly.
Now, you also have the reality that as you pointed out, parts of eastern Ukraine are ethnically Russian. Kerry is right in the most important sense though which is that the Ukrainian people's aspirations have to be honored here. How you do it, what mechanism, how many referendums you have to have whether the Ukrainians have to have a national referendum on our economy for Crimea.
But that should be at the heart of what ends up deciding this. It should not be a decision that is made in Moscow, or in Washington, or in Brussels, or in Berlin. It should be a decision that is largely made in Ukraine by the Ukrainians and the rest of the world should try to figure out how to support it.
That's the part of it that I think is getting lost in Mr. Putin's desire to maintain Russian influence which is self defeating because ultimately, if you so alienate all the Ukrainian people, you've ended up selling generations of bitterness and resentment not just in Ukraine but in the non-Russian part of Crimea probably and in places like Poland and perhaps in places like Kazakhstan, you know, the neighbors of Russia are watching this and saying, "This is a country you have to be careful with because when they want to dominate, they will dominate." BERNSTEIN: Piers, part of the problem is what Fareed has just described that Putin is now pushed the great number of Ukrainians particularly those not in the Crimea and not in eastern Ukraine toward the west even more so that they're (inaudible) opposed to Russian domination, the kind of hatred now from everybody who is reporting now that they have for Putin for the Russians.
Also, it's a little bit partly like Switzerland in this situation. It doesn't mean that everybody who is of Russian descent, any more than people in Switzerland of French or Italian or German descent are necessarily French or Italian or German. And awful a lot of people who are Swiss and consider themselves Swiss just as they are watching Ukrainians who consider them now especially after Putin's action as Ukrainian.
So this thing still is moving away uncontrolled from Putin and at the same time he has unquestionably furthered his interest by reeling Crimea back in so that it is going to have a great deal of autonomy. And the other thing that he wanted to do is to keep Ukraine from ever being a full member and partner in NATO and the Europeans now are a little slower in accepting the idea that Ukraine would ever join NATO in full way. And so Putin is having some real success here but it's a tinderbox.
MORGAN: OK, and Carl let me ask you this because we've debated this whole week. I spoke to the two things that never risen over the week, the two narratives which are being I guess most contentious. One is that Putin is behaving like some kind of barbarian and has to be reined back accordingly.
The second one that Barack Obama has been somehow weak. Do either of those actually hold water or are they both just being very political and defending their own natural interests?
BERNSTEIN: I think the argument about Obama being weak has very few legs to stand on. In the sense, the idea that because of what he did in Syria somehow or that Hillary Clinton reset the button with Russia somehow has resulted in this overrun of Crimea by Putin I think is a pretty ridiculous idea.
The real thing that has happened here, let's go back to basics, is that Putin does not know how this is going to turn out that's the worry of the White House, that's the worry of the National Security Council. And he is trying to figure a way to push Ukraine out of the west influence and back toward himself. He is not succeeding except with that Russian speaking minority in that part of Crimea.
So far, the off ramp has not been taken and that's the problem.
ZAKARIA: Piers, if I ...
MORGAN: OK. Fareed, final words to your and briefly if you may.
ZAKARIA: I just thought I'd add on that point about Obama being weak. Yeah, we should really look for a president who is strong and tough and had invaded several countries and then Putin would be deterred, wait, that happened in 2008 with George Bush who invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. And Putin faced up to him and then to George anyway.
MORGAN: Very good point.
ZAKARIA: We had an experiment.
MORGAN: Very good point. Very good point.
BERNSTEIN: Our domestic policies are not helping this situation especially in the last few days in the CPAC meeting in particularly is not making things any easier for having a real unified position in the United States and our political leaders.
MORGAN: Yeah, well said. Carl Bernstein and Fareed Zakaria, thank you both very much indeed.
Coming next, a pregnant woman drives her SUV into the ocean with three children inside. What could possibly make any mother do this and what are the warning signs? I'll talk to top psychiatrist.
Well, also my exclusive interview with the 18 year old who said the only way she could pay her tuition to a top University, Duke, was by doing porn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You could be in porn and to be able to be naked and to be able to be free and have that sexual autonomy. It is so incredibly freeing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF BEN JOHNSON, VOLUSIA COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Our goal is to make sure she gets into the system one way or another for the protection of her and for the children. We don't something like this happening again. We want to make sure that we get to the bottom of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Sheriff Ben Johnson talking about the story of -- I first brought you last night, a pregnant woman who drove her SUV into the Atlantic Ocean with her three children inside. What can make a mother do something like this?
Well, joining me now is Dr. Michael Welner, Forensic Psychiatrist and Chairman of the Forensic Panel. Dr. Welner, thank you for joining me. A really harrowing story of this, and we had the two heroes who pulled these kids out of the car, they could have almost have drowned, I think, they would have drowned if it hadn't been for their speedy actions.
But the more we learned about this story, the more troubling it becomes. I want to play you, before I get your first reaction, a part of the 911 call from her sister which is what I'm talking about.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SISTER: My sister was getting abused by her husband. I tried to take her to the hospital yesterday and she signed herself out today. She's getting a little bit better but she is still not all here, so she trying to drive and I am trying to stop her and she has her kids so I took her keys.
Yes, she is here with me. She came down to me for protection and I am trying to keep them safe because she is not good enough to drive.
DISPATCH: So, you are trying to keep her for leaving your residence? I don't understand why you need a well-being check.
SISTER: Because she's like been having psychosis or something or post-partum.
DISPATCH: Like, what is she doing?
SISTER: She is talking about Jesus and that there are demons in my house and that I am trying to control her but I'm trying to keep them safe.
I tried to call the domestic violence shelter to see if I can get help and counseling but they are telling me they are all full.
(END AUDIO TAPE)
MORGAN: Now, what's extraordinary, Dr. Welner, is this happened just a few hours before what we're now seeing on screen. What do you make of this?
DR. MICHAEL WELNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, I think that I have to tell you that what strikes me with that clip as well as the chief's comments right before it. Is that she's already in her sister and that she was already in a hospital, and that she was discharged from a hospital and discharged -- as the sister says, not all there.
And that is so representative of the state of affairs for many seriously mentally ill patients in the United States where they come into a hospital at obvious risk, they are discharged because they have the appearance of a lower risk, but the family that really knows them is never involved in the discussion, inherits a patient with no instructions from the doctors because of HIPPA laws and there's no owner's manual about how to handle a fragile patient. And when the patient is not completely tied (ph) together because length of stay and insurance reimbursement requirements mandate that the patient be pushed out the door.
You have situations like this happening frequently. We're only talking about it because three children were involved and because of a dramatic rescue. But there are stories all over the United States today of suicides, and other self injury that happened because of this kind of modus operandi, premature discharge, families disregarded, tragedy results.
MORGAN: I mean, it does seem quite remarkable when you read more and more about this case. The police reported, it was clear during my conversation with the mother that she was suffering from some form of mental illness, that she was lucid and didn't provide any signs that she may -- met the requirements that they need presumably to take more action. I mean, lucidity shouldn't be the only criteria surely for whether a mother is fit to be in sole charge of their kids, should it?
WELNER: Well, it shouldn't. But to be fair and I know what it is to be a psychiatrist in an emergency room making a decision about whether someone is a danger to themselves or someone else.
A person, many folks don't want to go into the hospital and many folks, even those who may have severe mental illness will know that when you sit with a psychiatrist who is probing whether you have assaultive or homicidal intent to you say, "No. I don't want to bother anyone. I don't want to hurt anyone. Yeah, you know, I hear voices here and there but I'll take my medication." They know what to say in order to manage the impression. That's why it's so important to get family input, because family sees what's happening outside of your emergency room suit where you might ...
WELNER: ... be examining somebody for half hour, an hour. And they can tell you, "Doc. Doc." You have no ..." but families aren't involved. And I'm telling you this is a psychiatrist. I think families should have more influence than psychiatrist on the commitment process. And I think that can be very easily remedied and until -- and it should be.
MORGAN: But here's -- right, I mean I might ask you. My simply response would be that I don't think the family goes on any more here, you've got a sister who is spelling out absolutely in very clear detail all these problems with her sister, post partum depression, psychosis, she's pregnant, she's just been abused by her husband. I mean a complete checklist of stuff which should have rung huge alarmed us.
Let's take a short break. I want to come back and talked about the children here because clearly going forward, it's going to be a massive problem. There's an abusive father and you got a mother who's trying to kill them all. What happens to these poor kids?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Why would a pregnant woman drive her SUV into the ocean with her children inside and how will those children now deal with the trauma?
Back with me now Dr. Michael Welner, Forensic Psychiatrist. Let's talk about these four children, Dr. Welner, because they're all young and they've all been through an utterly traumatic experience where you could hear them crying out for help and also they told the heroes who rescued them that their mother was trying to kill them all.
What happens now? I mean, will this mother automatically be removed from the care of these kids? Because we believe in the transcript of the phone call from her sister that the father's abusive too. What happens to them?
WELNER: Well, the current thinking within psychiatry and psychology is that, eventual reunification of a family is in the interest of the family even in abusive environments. But clearly, the mother is in no position to be caring for these children. And in terms of the father, he's a big mystery because if someone is psychotic, he may well have been quite abusive and that may have been part of whatever irrational thought it.
So the father is a big question mark in terms of how he fits into this. But clearly, the children cannot be in that environment. At the same time and this is something for viewers to keep in mind, because it cuts to the heart of the significance of child abuse, it cuts to the heart of incest which is far more common that we admit.
Children can only learn trust in the relationship that they have with mother and father. And when that sacred trust is so utterly decimated by something as a homicide attempt, where a child cannot even trust the mother. Then it has long-term impact on the person's ability to form attachments, form relationships to love and be loved.
So, for those of you who are on the edge, recognize that what you may -- that the decision you make may shatter your child in incalculable ways and to just think one extra step before you act.
MORGAN: The children, the three, nine and 10 and currently in the care of the state and I guess this will have to now be resolved in some way. You, I think having involved with the infamous case involving Andrea Yates, or some of the other cases like Susan Smith and others who've done similar kinds of things with their kids. Is there a pattern that you can detect at all in these kinds of cases? Is there a common theme to why mothers crack and do this kind of thing?
WELNER: The best way -- and I know I'm more familiar with the Yates case because I examined her and worked on the case directly than the others ...
MORGAN: I just to remind viewers, Dr. Welner, what she did. WELNER: Andrea Yates drowned her five children Noah, John, Paul, Luke and Mary. She'd certainly be remembered because nobody speaks for the children and they do remain faceless when they are plundered. I think that in some instances, a mother is really quite psychotic and completely irrational. In other instances, a mother maybe ill but overwhelmed in making a decision because of her inability to manage her parenting.
And in some instances, the mother maybe volatile, maybe even under the influence of drugs and they act out of anger or spike. And then some instances and we're all familiar of course with Casey Anthony, a mother may kill her children because she views them as an inconvenience as appalling as we may appreciate that.
So we have to go beyond presumptions. You can't take a sort of a one size fits all approach with mothers. Some of them are ill and those who are ill, for some the illness maybe incidental to the decision to destroy the family. And in some instances, it's a hallucination and it's a delusion that's driving it all.
MORGAN: Is it sensible to bring criminal charges in a case like this?
WELNER: You have to, because if a person is psychiatrically ill then the system will sort it out. Look, I examined a man who beheaded three of his children in Texas after the Andrea Yates, not guilty by a reason of insanity verdict. You know what he told his cellmate? If Andrea Yates can kill her five children and get off in insanity, well so can I.
You have to let individuals know who are considering it as an option that society will protect children because otherwise no one speaks for them. And if illness is truly the driving force, then the system will sort it out and treat selected individuals compassionately and otherwise not forget about victims who are in no position to defend themselves when someone decides to take them into the ocean.
MORGAN: But let's come back again to the way the system operated here because I think this is key because when I read the transcript and listened to the sister talking to the dispatch. I'm not sure what more she could possibly have done. I mean she outlined the full kind of background to all of this. She knew her sister better than anybody else.
She talked about abuse, about psychosis, and talking about Jesus, hearing voices, couldn't get into the domestic violence shelter because they were full. She was trying to wrestle the keys away from here. Then we hear an unknown woman at the end say, she's just been released in the hospital, she's pregnant and they gave a medicine to make her drowsy. I mean, if I was a dispatch and I don't want to be too critical with this dispatch here because they must get so many calls not exactly like this, but certainly bordering on this kind of thing.
But given that scale of detail and given the fact the police then followed up, wouldn't that be enough to at very least say to somebody in authority we have not -- we do not know that this woman drive a car with her kid, we're going to stop that happening.
WELNER: Quite possibly. But, again, because the dispatcher is not here to speak for herself, the only thing that I would introduce into this discussion is that somebody listening to this, just flush without the benefit of hindsight that we have.
We have reacted to the early part of the call, saying well my dealing with a domestic abuse situation and then suddenly adhere (ph) into a discussion of somebody who needs psychiatric care. And well my dealing with an abusive environment in which we're dealing with a defenseless woman or my dealing with the situation of defense ...
MORGAN: But to be fair, to be fair, probably to be fair, they dispatched -- did you call the police? And the police did investigate this -- I suppose my real concern about the precedent here has been set by what happened in terms of the way the system operate it, is it -- if you were the police listening to the call from the system, which you have to assume they did.
If you put all this together, wouldn't you the very least prevent this woman driving a car with their kids? That's really what I find so inexplicable about the sequence of events, given just a few hours of (inaudible), you know, the dispatch call from the system with all the detail, the police talked to the mother.
And the next thing is in a few hours, holy unsurprisingly from what the sister has been telling everybody, she goes and tries to do something crazy with the children.
WELNER: You know, there is an explanation. Law enforcement has been conditioned by the policy of emergency rooms where they will take people to the emergency room saying, "We feel this person is scary." A doctor will sit down and examine someone who will hold it together and perhaps be a little bit more contained because she's on a sedative, that makes her a little bit more low key and then discharge the patient.
I want to call attention to your viewers who may feel helpless with all this. There is a law in Congress right now of Mental Health Reform proposed by Congressman Tim Murphy. I know because I've contributed to it and it's specifically earmarks the role of families in being directly influential in communicating with doctors and in having an impact on just how ill someone needs to be in order to be placed into protective treatment.
That can be changed. That's actually as simple as changing a law. If this subject matters to you, and if you have a family member who is psychiatric ill, you should just call your Congressman. There's a building for Congress now.
WELNER: You should get the Murphy Bill passed because it directly impacts cases like this. We don't have to be talking about theoretical solutions. They exist. They're there. Call your Congressman ... MORGAN: Should be you...
WELNER: ... forget what party he's in and just tell him to step up to the plate.
MORGAN: Dr. Michael Welner, as always, great to talk to you. Thank you very much...
WELNER. Thank you, I appreciate your interest.
MORGAN: Coming up, the 18-year-old college student who's found a noble way to pay her tuition at Duke University. She looks familiar. You might want to admit it. She's working her way through college by doing porn.
MORGAN: Well not long ago, my next guest is another student at Duke University. Now, she's known as Belle Knox and she's acting in porn to pay her tuition. She first told her story on the website xoJane and she does very exclusively in the chair. Welcome to you.
Belle, they call Belle, that's not your real name but we're going to protect your real identity. You are probably right now pound for pound the most infamous student in America. How do you feel about that?
BELLE KNOX, DUKE UNIVERSITY STUDENT & PORN ACTRESS: It's pretty absurd. I mean, I would have never second like this would ever happen.
MORGAN: Really? I mean that you're obviously very, very bright because you're doing this course. What is the course you're doing at Duke's?
KNOX: I'm a woman who studies in Sociology Nature.
MORGAN: And what does that mean? What does that cover?
KNOX: Basically, we study history of politics, economics, but from a female narrative.
MORGAN: Right, let's put -- So, you're obviously very bright because over 30,000 applications for the course, only 3,000 people got in. So, we have to assume you are very, very smart young lady, right?
So, I'm surprised that you are surprised given how smart you are that what you're doing in your spare time as (inaudible).
KNOX: Well, I mean, I think to be perfectly honest, if I was just another college girl who does porn, sort of then like a day or news, but I think that because I came out in defense of myself, and because I really talked about how much porn empowered me and I really told my story, I think that that's what set this story apart.
MORGAN: Let me just read a little bit of what you said. This is what you said in your own defense. "So, me shooting pornography brings unimaginable joy. When I finished the scene, I know I've gone so and competed on this stage work. It's my artistic outlet, my love, my happiness, my home, I can definitively say I've never felt more empowered or happy doing anything else in a world where women is so often robbed of their choice. I'm completely in control of my sexuality as a bisexual movement (inaudible). I feel completely accepted. It's freeing. It's empowering. It's wonderful. It's how the world should be."
MORGAN: You really believe all that?
KNOX: Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think that ...
MORGAN: So, when you said you're going to be the happiest -- you're ever going to be in life is making adult movies?
KNOX: Absolutely, I mean well, you know, not my whole life but we are in a society where we are so repressed every single day. We're told that sex is bad. We're told not to have sex.
We're told not to show our body and that's really true for women. And to be in porn and to be able to be naked and to be able to be free and how that sexual autonomy, it is so incredibly freeing.
MORGAN: There will be lots of people watching this who will be feigning outrage and yet secretly probably looking at porn quire regularly themselves. Do you think there's a hypocrisy in the way that people treat pornography in America?
KNOX: I mean, absolutely -- I mean, I think 80 percent of the world's traffic of -- on the internet is pornography. And I think that probably every single person at some point in their life has watched pornography.
So, I think it's extremely hypocritical that the same industry or the same society that consumes me is also condemning me.
MORGAN: But it was a powerful piece you wrote, very provocative and also the tension. I want to know the reactions from the university itself first or how they responded to this.
KNOX: They've been very supportive of me. We're working really hard to make sure that I'm safe and that ...
MORGAN: I mean, you're here in Los Angeles. You're working in the porn industry right now. You've taken days off the college to be here. Are they happy with you doing that?
KNOX: Well, it came to a point where I felt so unsafe on campus both mentally and physically that we decided that it was better if I took a few days off.
MORGAN: Because your real identity was exposed by a fellow student, right? KNOX: Yes. And being on campus is just a really upsetting experience for me. So, we wanted to just -- give me some time to reflect and to think.
MORGAN: Right. But you're actually here working now, aren't you?
MORGAN: Not really thinking too much. I mean you're making movies.
KNOX: Well, you know, the really cool thing about being out here is I'm surrounded by people in my industry. So, I'm surrounded by support. I'm surrounded by who I can talk to about the sigma that I'm facing in on everyday.
So, that's what -- that's why I came out here was to have that support, that you can't find anywhere else.
MORGAN: Let's go back to the reason that you decided to do, as why did you get to do? It's almost you're 18. So, is there any decision about to take very reasonably? Why did you do it?
KNOX: Well, the financial aid that I was giving to pay for my tuition was insufficient. And it was just a really enormous financial burden on my family. I was asked to pay about $47,000 a year. And I think that...
MORGAN: And the breakdown -- we've got to hear. This is the, you know, that's the breakdown. The estimated cost of attendance for 2013 to 2014 is tuition and fees $45,000, room $6,000, board $5,800, books and personal expenses $3,500, estimated cost of attendance in total is $61,000. I mean, it is an obscene amount of money.
KNOX: Yes. It is absurd and that doesn't even reflect how much it actually cost, you know, in the plane tickets and the books. It's very expensive to go to college.
MORGAN: And your family is simply not in a position to meet this kind of cost?
KNOX: It's $60,000 a year. I don't know how many families can afford that. That's a lot of money. And, you know, I'm not the only person in my family. My family has other expenses.
MORGAN: How many siblings do you have?
KNOX: I have two siblings.
MORGAN: And now, you're taking the position you don't want to talk about your family's reaction to this. But I guess it's fair to assume if they would completely support you. If we've probably would have heard from them by now.
So, you told us you have very difficult situation for you and your family. Do you have any regrets about going public about all this and the fact your real identity is out there and people and worked out with your family? Now, Do you regret that part of it?
KNOX: Why regret and I would advice any other girls whose thinking of entering this industry the same thing. I regret not telling my family from the get-go. I think that was a really big mistake.
I think that I really kind of isolated myself by not telling them and I think that not telling your family when you're, you know, doing sex work is a very isolating experience.
MORGAN: I mean, you know, I've got person I have known moral hang up about what you do or the industry you're in. But if I'm honest, you know, I've got a young daughter, very young, only two years old, but if she was your age decided to do this I would be pretty upset as a father. I wouldn't like it. And I suspect most fathers would feel the same way. There must be, I guess, a difficulty there for you and your family, right. But, how do you think you're going to come through all that?
KNOX: Right. Well, I talked to a lot of other sex workers and I think what really is concerning, my parents and other parents is, "is my child safe, is my child being exploited, is my child enjoying what they're doing" and I'm not being exploited. I love what I'm doing and I'm safe.
So, I think that we need to come to a level of understanding about that. And you know, a lot of the negative feelings about pornography really come from this narrative that we've been hearing that pornography -- all of pornography is degrading and all of it was (inaudible).
MORGAN: OK. Well, hold that thought. Let's come back after the break and talk about that because you're talking about it in a very sort of celebratory way. You know the arguments against it. I want to get into that with you after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH BANKS: If we don't come up with some rent, we're going to get locked out of the apartment.
SETH ROGEN: I think it's time we put what we always talked about into effect. You're going to have to start hooking.
BANKS: You know, you jest, but these are the exact circumstances people find themselves and right before they start having sex for money or making porn.
What? You got an idea?
ROGEN: We can make a porno.
BANKS: Not the idea I was looking for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Clip from Kevin Smith's 2008 film "Zack and Miri Make a Porno." But as people know, "truth is stranger than fiction." And my guest is a real life porn actress who's paying her college tuition at Duke University by making video. She has the name Belle Knox and she's back with me exclusively.
And it's quite fascinating talking to you because you are very smart. You're obviously - you're well-spoken, very eloquent about this. And your position on it all is that actually there's nothing to be ashamed of here in terms of the work you're doing.
MORGAN: Why do people profess to find it so shameful? What do you think?
KNOX: Well, that comes from thousands of years of patriarchy and thousands of years of religion that leads us to the point where we so deeply fear sexuality.
MORGAN: Do you don't feel that you're being used by an industry which has infamously use women for many decades, and I think women studies Dukes, you know, you won't be oblivious to this. Many women have already bad experiences in the adult industry. You don't feel bad at all?
KNOX: No, I don't. And I wouldn't necessarily agree with kind of the statement that, you know, most women in the industry have had negative experiences. I think you've hear about those experiences because a lot of the times, it's cropped up by a political agenda. But, you know, I think that there are a lot of women in the pornography industries who really love their jobs and who find it really empowering.
MORGAN: Are you able to hold noble relationship with the man or woman at the moment if you're doing -- assuming can people do operate in this industry do that?
KNOX: Well, the thing that kind of goes is if you're having a relationship outside of the industry, it's going to be weird in some way. But no and I'm not in the relationship right now. But, I have met a lot of man and woman who had no problem with me doing pornography. So, I really don't think it will be an issue with my future relationships.
MORGAN: What about the students of Duke, because it's been a lot of hostility and I would imagine some support. Was been the breakdown percentage wise, do you think, from all the students you've had any direct reaction from?
KNOX: I think it's about maybe 70 percent are OK with me or in favor with me and a lot of the -- like LGBT community has really rallied around me. And then, there's like the 30 percent of, you know, the frat guys and the girls who just hate me.
MORGAN: If you got married in 10 years time or whatever and you had a baby girl, would you want your daughter when she was 18 to be doing what you'll doing?
KNOX: I want my daughter to make any firm decision about her career and I think it's absolutely her choice.
MORGAN: You wouldn't either think you would try and discourage her as a mother?
KNOX: No. I think that it's her choice to do pornography. I would try my very best to make sure that she was safe and that I knew what she was doing in anywhere she was going which is where I went wrong with my family.
MORGAN: Did you worried that you'll never have the same relationship with your family again?
KNOX: No, I don't worry about that, because at the end of the day, your family loves you. And it's that love that will keep us together. And I think that, I mean, really any family who just own, you know, their daughter for doing pornography put pretty questionable ethics, I mean, my family loves me six months ago when I wasn't a porn star, what would make them not love me now?
MORGAN: So they haven't descend you?
MORGAN: And you don't expect them to?
KNOX: No, I don't.
MORGAN: It's going to be difficult for you back at Duke, doesn't it? I mean, you obviously, now, it's so public. "Hey, you're on CNN talking about this." You're going to go back into normal student like. And presumably, you're going to carry on in between making more of these movies.
MORGAN: It's not going to make your life any easier. Are you ready for that sort of constant Ohm's law (ph) the tension is going to bring you?
KNOX: Well, I mean, the downside now is I can't really go out anymore. I can't really go to, you know, a lot of parties or gatherings and -- because I'm just met by a lot hostility from people. But I'm confident.
MORGAN: Are you getting hostility from men or women?
MORGAN: Male students or... KNOX: It's a lot woman.
KNOX: Which I think that a lot that comes from -- maybe they caught their boyfriend watching my porn. But, I mean, like I was saying, you know, I can't really go out like I used too. But I'm confident that...
MORGAN: But you said that was in the right smart, isn't it? I think that was quite funny. But, I think it wouldn't be funny for that woman if that's indeed what happened, would it? It's all right just to be obedient (ph) to think that's funny.
KNOX: There's nothing wrong with watching porn. I mean, and I think that, I mean, to be mad at me because your boyfriend is watching porn or to be jealous of me, it's also petty and it's also ridiculous, but that's just me speculating.
MORGAN: Belle, stay with me. We'll have a little -- a short break coming up and then I'll ask you how you got this porn name. Because I'm told it's your first pet normally and then your first street name.
MORGAN: Back now with my guest, Duke University student and porn actress, Belle Knox. How did you get the name Belle Knox? Because it's supposed to be (inaudible) isn't there? First pet, mine was a cat called Rocky after Rocky Balboa, and then your first street name, which in my case was Oxbottom Line (ph). So I would, if I went into industry, be Rocky Oxbottom. How did you get yours? Did you use that formula?
KNOX: No. Actually, mine is kind of strange. So, it's Belle after -- I get the name Belle from like "Beauty and the Beast" and also Belle from the show "Diary of a Call Girl."
MORGAN: Belle de Jour?
MORGAN: Right. And Knox?
KNOX: Knox is -- I've always had this like fascination with Amanda Knox, like just her case, really fascinating for me.
MORGAN: You named after Amanda Knox?
MORGAN: Isn't it a little bit creepy?
KNOX: Well, she's such a really interesting person. I mean, I'm not saying I support her or anything that -- she seems like a really cool person just like talk to about -- like she seems to be very intelligent. I don't know.
MORGAN: How much do you make from your movie making? What do you get for a film?
KNOX: I can make about $12,000 each scene.
MORGAN: Which is a lot more than you can get if you're working as a waitress in North Carolina, for example.
KNOX: Absolutely. And it's less time consuming. I send my own schedule. I don't have to worry about, you know, not getting sleep or not doing my work because I'm working with three free jobs.
MORGAN: Well Belle, it's been pleasant talking to you. Best of luck back at Duke. I think you're going to be in for any rough ride, but I suspect you can probably handle it. It's been good to meet you.
KNOX: You too. Thank you.
MORGAN: That's all for us tonight. CNN's Original Series, "Chicagoland" with Executive Producer Robert Redford premieres right now.