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JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Mom Accused of Killing Toddler Found in Suitcase; Crash at SXSW Festival Leaves 2 Dead

Aired March 13, 2014 - 19:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, growing outrage and heartbreak after the body of a precious 2 1/2-year-old girl is found stuffed inside a buried suitcase.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell.

This case will disgust you. Cops say the little girl`s own mom killed the child and then hid her body. As if that`s not horrific enough, nearly three years earlier, the toddler`s twin brother died. And Mom said, "Oh, that was an accident." Was it? Really? You better believe that baby`s death is now being reexamined.

When infant Tavont`ae Gordon died suddenly back in 2011, this mom, Rachel Fryer, lost custody of her other five children. But last fall, a Florida judge insisted this mother, despite her long history of drug addiction, multiple arrests, a history of violence, child abuse allegations -- the list goes on and on and on -- deserved to get her kids back. What a deadly decision that turned out to be.

The cops say two months after the kids moved back in with mom, little Tariji Gordon was murdered. By Mom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A case worker said they went to Gordon`s home the morning of her death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Near the woods was a suitcase that was suspected of being used to transport the victim to that location.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fryer blasted caseworkers for not doing enough to help her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tariji`s twin, Tavont`ae, actually died three years ago, and Sanford Police have reopened that case, and three other children are in foster care. And according to investigators, Rachel Fryer is pregnant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our focus right now is on the siblings, this young child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So now a grand jury has indicted 32-year-old Rachel Fryer with murder, child abuse, tampering with evidence and mishandling human remains.

She denies murdering her toddler, telling "The Orlando Sentinel" from jail she found the little girl unresponsive in bed. Quote, "I was trying to do CPR. I should have called 911, but I wasn`t thinking rationally. I was thinking, `They`re going to come take my kids away. It would have broke my heart in a million pieces," end quote.

Child welfare workers visited this family at least 14 times between when she got the kids back in November and last month, when little Tariji was killed. Murdered, say cops. By her mom, say cops. Fourteen visits.

Back when the mom was in jail a couple years ago, the agencies monitoring this family fought like heck to get these little kids adopted out. But the courts blocked that.

And then, last fall, Circuit Court Judge Donna McIntosh, that lady right there, insisted these innocent kids go back with their unstable drug- addicted ex-con mom, even though they were reportedly doing quite well in foster care. We`ve called to ask her for comment and haven`t heard back. Please, I would love to have you on the show. I have a lot of questions to ask you.

Reports are this little girl didn`t want to go back to her biological mom with good reason, it turns out!

Straight out to the Lion`s Den. I want to start with Lisa Bloom, legal analyst, Avvo.com, author of "Suspicion Nation."

I am sick. I am sick reading the details of this case. This should not have happened. This little girl was just abandoned by the system. And I don`t understand what this judge was thinking, Lisa.

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVVO.COM: You know, it`s bigger than just this one story. I see this in my law practice all the time. We just don`t take child abuse seriously. And especially, we should take it seriously when a child says, "I don`t want to go be with my mom." Because most kids are dying to be with their parents. Even parents who aren`t the greatest parents in the world, a kid naturally wants to be with them.

If a child is saying very directly, "I don`t want to be with my mom," at a very minimum, she should only be with her mother when there`s a court- appointed monitor there all the time, watching them. That didn`t happen here, and that`s responsible for this terrible tragedy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, Steve Greenberg, criminal defense attorney, reports are the day after the twin of this little girl, who was found dead, buried in a suitcase -- the twin died a couple of years ago -- the mom tested positive for cocaine. I mean, what are they thinking?

STEVE GREENBERG, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you`ve got a bad history here. But on the other hand, it appears that the mother had tried to clean up her act, had convinced the court that she had cleaned up her act, wasn`t doing drugs, wasn`t going out all hours of the night, had gone through all sorts of parenting classes. And I believe that the Child Protective Services had not seen any evidence of abuse.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m sorry, Mr. Greenberg. Excuse me. According to published reports, she couldn`t afford rent. She didn`t have enough money for food. Beds she rented for her kids, ages 2, 3, 4 and 7, were returned because she couldn`t afford them. I mean...

GREENBERG: But that doesn`t make her abusive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How about this?

GREENBERG: That doesn`t make her unfit. That makes her struggling.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, excuse me. Chuck Williams, psychologist, suffered from mental health problems, alcohol abuse, physical health problems, unstable housing, unstable employment, recurrent criminal behavior. She`s been in jail at least nine times.

Am I living -- we`ve got to, you know, get real about problems and not just look the other way because it`s the biological mother. These kids were in foster care. DCF -- and we`re going to talk to somebody who represents the overarching organizations that include DCF in a second.

But I want to talk to you, Chuck Williams, psychologist. You know, this issue of biology can`t trump everything else when you`ve got a really troubled mom. Look at this little girl, this innocent child. She didn`t have a snowball`s shot in hell.

CHUCK WILLIAMS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Jane, you hit the nail on the head, unfortunately. I`m an expert on this, not only because I was appointed by the Philadelphia mayor to an oversight board for child welfare services, and we`re making some progress there. But I grew up in the child welfare system in Philadelphia. I grew up in the foster care system because of some of these same issues, a father who was a heroin addict, a mother co- dependent.

And I can tell you the problem is child welfare workers, the agencies, the judges are loathe to take kids away from their parents, especially a mother, because as you said, the biology is so powerful. People think, how can you take such young kids from a mother or a father? We have to keep them in the home. The mantra of the day is reunification, family preservation.

But the problem is when you focus on that instead of the welfare of the child, children die all across America. This is an example of that.

I don`t care that she was OK for a while. You want to see that she`s clean for a year or two. And beyond that, one of your guests said it doesn`t make her an unfit parent. It does. If you can`t provide heat, clothing, food, shelter, it`s called neglect.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Kids can be removed from the home for neglect, not just because they`re physically abused.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who was shouting out, Steve?

SIERRA ELIZABETH, ATTORNEY: Jane -- Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jump in.

ELIZABETH: Let`s talk about another issue that I heard you mention earlier.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.

ELIZABETH: This was not DCF`s fault. OK. We know in America that our social welfare programs are not properly funded, understaffed. They do not have proper training for employees. And the employees that are putting in the hard hours every day are stressed out, and they can`t perform to their highest ability. We know that.

And despite all of that, DCF in this case did their job. In 2011, they took these children out of their home. In 2012, they -- they had a petition to try to get the kids adopted.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes -- oh, yes.

ELIZABETH: ... that DCF did what they were supposed to do in this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go -- hold on, people. Read this woman`s history, OK? You don`t have to be an expert to say this is a tragedy waiting to happen. You don`t have to have a degree in psychology to say this is a train wreck heading for a giant mountaintop is going to go off the rails and is going to smash into a million pieces. It`s right there, staring you in the face. We`ll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers found a shallow grave with a small child`s shoe exposed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The medical examiner found several injuries in various states of healing on the child`s body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother of the 2-year-old showed up at the Sanford Police Department and told investigators that she was here to turn herself in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I find probable cause for murder in the first degree.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A caseworker...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A caseworker said they went to Gordon`s home the morning of her death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Near the woods was a suitcase that was suspected of being used to transport the victim to that location.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fryer blasted caseworkers for not doing enough to help her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tariji`s twin, Tavont`ae, actually died two years ago, and Sanford Police have reopened that case. Three other children are in foster care. And according to investigators, Rachel Fryer is pregnant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our focus right now is on the siblings, this young child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This mother, Rachel Fryer, who you just heard is pregnant, appeared to be struggling emotionally and financially right after her kids moved back in with her last fall. She told caseworkers she couldn`t pay her rent. The beds she rented for her children had to be returned, because she couldn`t afford them; she couldn`t pay for them.

She told the reporter that DCF is always, quote, "trying to make you look bad. I asked them for $325 for my rent, and they wouldn`t pay that. They wouldn`t even help a struggling mother. They`d rather pay foster parents $500 a child rather than help me out," end quote.

Now, clearly, that says to me she has money on the mind.

So I want to go to Chuck Williams, psychologist. And by the way, you spoke about being a product of the foster-care system. I mean, look, you`re a professor at Drexel University, a noted psychologist. So it`s -- you`re living proof of how wonderful the foster system can be to churn out incredibly overachieving Americans.

But I have to wonder why...

WILLIAMS: Thank you for calling me an overachiever, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I do -- I mean, an achiever, yes. Achievers. Achievers, yes.

WILLIAMS: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Achievers. But this mother, why do you think she really wanted the kids back? Because I have to say, in my cynic head it was for the money. They get about $300. She gets about $300 a month per kid, and she got these kids back and then she`s immediately complaining about money.

WILLIAMS: You know what, Jane? This is a complicated case, because all mothers, even mothers who are in recovery, are dealing with recovery issues, they do have like this biological and this psychological attachment to their kids. It`s almost natural.

Beyond that, what mother wants to go to the grocery store in the neighborhood, for example, and when someone says, "Where are your kids?"

"Oh, they`re in the foster care system." So there`s also pride.

However, you mentioned something about money, and I think the money may be related to the fact that she was struggling with recovery. I bet you any amount of money, that was the major culprit here.

And don`t forget, as you know, being a former prosecutor, whenever there`s drugs involved, and addiction, people can do some very heinous and unconscionable, tragic things. Which is why when we see that, it`s important for all the adults who matter in these kids` lives to do the right thing and protect them first, and sometimes that means placing them into the child welfare system and keeping them there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Joe Durso, I`ve got to go back to you, Joe. You`re with the public affairs for the community-based Central Care Florida. In other words, also DCF.

Did she -- did she get regular drug testing? Look, I`m a recovering alcoholic with 18 years of sobriety. If I make it to next month, 19 years of sobriety. If you`re going to put children in my care, I`d be happy. Yes, test me for anything every month. I don`t care. Did you -- can you test her to see if she`s staying sober or maybe using that money she gets for having the kids for drugs?

JOE DURSO, PUBLIC AFFAIRS, CENTRAL CARE FLORIDA (via phone): Well, you know, prior to re-unification, she was tested several times, and she had tested clean, I should say, or negative. And that`s part of the reason why the judge was sold on the argument that she was completing her case plan and re-unified.

And, you know, at the beginning of the show, Jane, you had mentioned that we had been in the house in one way, shape or form nearly 14 times. That number is actually closer to 25. So we`ve really engaged with the family and trying to provide as much support as we could, both in unannounced home visits, announced home visits, guardian ad litem visits, visits from our care program, which is a support program for situations like that. So the...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You were there the morning of her death.

DURSO: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hours before, cops say she was murdered and then ultimately stuffed in a suitcase and buried. Not you particularly, but the system was there. Right there. And couldn`t stop it. Couldn`t stop it.

The fact is -- the fact is, that this is something that I think goes unsaid too many times, that this is a human business. And at the end of the day, a bad mother did a horrible thing to her own child. And while there were red flags in this case, there are red flags in every one of our cases. That`s why there is child welfare.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She should never have had the mother -- the child. The judge...

DURSO: We don`t disagree.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Judge, judge, what were you thinking? What were you thinking?

A driver plows into a packed crowd at one of the biggest festivals on the planet, South by Southwest in Texas, leaving a trail of blood. It`s a scene of carnage. It looks like -- it looks like something out of a movie. Cops say it was a man who was drunk. But tonight, witnesses are asking, did he intend to commit this carnage?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Out of nowhere, a car just barreled through some barricades and directly into a group of people, maliciously even, I would say, as there was an open space in the road where he could have driven.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Out of nowhere, a car plowed through some barricades and directly into a group of people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People down every 10 feet. Everywhere you look, somebody`s been hit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I remember seeing people bouncing off on the street all the way. That`s when there`s cops coming through and a helicopter chasing them, and everybody was just scattered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a result of this person`s reckless and willful disregard for the safety of the people of this city, we had two individuals that were pronounced dead on the scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fast breaking news tonight. Disbelief and outrage as a world-famous Texas festival turns into a hellish surreal war zone. Bodies flying in the air, blood flowing on the streets. A night on the town turns into a nightmare as the car plows into a crowd of people at the South by Southwest festival. You must have heard of it.

Cops say the drunk driver killed two people and injured 23 other people, some of them very seriously, as he drove into a crowd called -- well, it was outside this club called Mohawk.

South by Southwest is a famous festival where people gather to make the world a better place. Tech innovators hang with musicians, hang with artists, hang and environmentalists. Last night, however, one driver brought death and destruction to this yearly festival.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People down every 10 feet. Everywhere you look somebody has been hit. CPR.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable. Now, this is reportedly a previous mug shot of the suspect, 21-year-old Rashad Owens. He escaped from the accident nearly unscathed. But he has been charged with two counts of capital murder.

And one of the deceased has been identified as Steven Craenmehr, the creative director for a music agency, who was in town from Amsterdam. The other victim, a female passenger on a moped.

South by Southwest organizers say they will not let this tragedy ruin this famous festival. It is continuing today. In fact, I have a friend who is there right now. Straight out to my very special guest, Socrates Villareal. You were there last night. You actually shot this video that we`re looking at right now.

So tell us how this suddenly unfolded. People are having fun; they`re talking to each other. And then what happened, Socrates?

SOCRATES VILLAREAL, WITNESS (via phone): Well, we were -- finished up our evening at the club right next to Mohawk. I was with my brother, Daniel Villareal. And we`d been covering South by Southwest for five years now for the HispanicChannel.com and posting the coverage on DocUCS (ph) for YouTube.

Somebody ran into the venue and called -- made a cry for a doctor or anybody with medical experience. Come out and help. And so we went out to see what was going on. Very quickly, we made the assessment to find out how we could better assist in the area.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you see the car? Did you see the vehicle? Did you see the suspect? Because apparently, he ended up, like, running away or was caught?

VILLAREAL: Well, we arrived on the scene. It was about fifteen feet from where we were after the car had driven through. We did not see a car drive through. We saw life when we went outside. But the incident had already occurred. All that was left was people running, crying, injured. That`s the scene we arrived upon.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And describe it. Take us there. Because we see people, like holding their hands over their mouths, like screaming. What did it feel like to be there?

VILLAREAL: It was a state of hysteria. And unfortunately, at that time it changed the mood for everybody, and nobody will walk away the same as they were walking into the venue. It was -- it was just carnage. It was bodies. It was emotional. People were injured. You couldn`t tell who was injured by the experience or who was physically injured because of the chaos and running around.

But then there was first responders there very quickly. And South by Southwest volunteers had created barricades there to allow first responders to enter the area.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me jump in, sir, and just ask. Pablo Vazquez, you`re a witness who saw the car crash itself. What did you see? Did it look like this guy was aiming for the group?

PABLO VAZQUEZ, WITNESS (via phone): Yes, yes, actually, it did look that way exactly. There was clearly a gap he could have driven through and he did -- from what it looked, in my eyes, intentionally swerved into this group.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And then he plows into people and just keeps his foot on the accelerator or what, Pablo?

VAZQUEZ: Correct, correct. He just went into the group of people that was directly in front of me. He passed only a few inches, less than a foot in front of me. And I saw people flying, and he just kept going, as if it either didn`t faze him or he knew he was already screwed and just kept going.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Pablo, one last quick question. Did he jump out of the car and start running?

VAZQUEZ: Yes, yes, yes. After he hit a taxi or a van, I couldn`t tell exactly what from where I was standing. But he -- he hit a car that disabled his car, and he just took off running. The police were able to quickly catch him and Tase him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m happy you`re safe. I`m happy Socrates is safe. I`m happy my friend who`s there is safe. But what a horror. My heart goes out to everyone who was killed and injured. I mean, this is obscene that a place of love and peace and co-existence has turned into another scene of violence in America.

Next, a former Army captain charged with murder in the shooting death of her husband. She says she had no choice whatsoever. It was self- defense. Will she use "stand your ground"?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She and Daly got into an argument about bills. It became heated when Lowe brought up a female friend of Daly`s.

VALERIE LOWE, CHARGED WITH MURDER IN HUSBAND`S DEATH (via phone): My husband was coming after me, and he refused to leave me alone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A very gentle man. He even spoke very low.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lowe waited a full 12 minutes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be honest with you, I believe the delay was so that he would not make any dying utterances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOWE (via phone): I need police and ambulance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lowe, a military veteran, was trained to protect herself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was right in the sternum area, right center chest, and a single gunshot wound.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She and Daly got into an argument about bills. It became heated when Lowe brought up a female friend of Daly`s.

LOWE: My husband was coming after me, and he refused to leave me alone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A very gentle man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He even spoke very low.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lowe waited a full 12 minutes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be honest with you I believe the delay was so that he would not make any dying utterances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, neighbors in shock as a Florida woman who was viewed as the pillar of the community who served our nation as a U.S. Army captain guns down her husband in their bedroom. The question tonight, will she use Stand Your Ground as a defense against the murder because this is happening in Florida?

Valerie Lowe told cops she and her husband Laurence were arguing over bills but things escalated when she brought up one of his female friends. She claims Laurence had been drinking, was getting aggressive, so she grabbed the gun from the night stand, pointed it at him and told him to stay away. That then he balled up his fist as if he was going to hit her and she fired in self-defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOWE: My husband was coming after me and he refused to leave me alone and he was being very aggressive and assault me and he drew his fist back while I was laying in the bed like he was going to punch me in the face once again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he still there?

LOWE: We were arguing and I shot him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You shot him?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cops are not buying her story claiming she later changed her story and said that her husband actually did hit her. Now, here`s a question tonight. Did she have a secret life? Cops point out this newly married woman was already surfing a dating site. They had only been married about a year.

They say, as a former U.S. Army captain, she`s been trained to protect herself. Why did she have to go for the ultimate -- the gun? Guess what. He`s also trained. It says right in the arrest affidavit he was in the Navy for three years.

Now, this 53-year-old woman is behind bars in Florida and the judge will not grant her bail. She is charged with murder 2, second degree murder. Was Valerie Lowe looking for a way out of her marriage or was she really in fear for her life as she claims?

We`ll debate it in the "Lion`s Den". But first, we`re looking at photos from inside the home. In the police report, cops say Valerie was calm and cool and collected and there were no signs of a struggle in the bedroom where Larry was shot -- if Larry didn`t actually hit her himself. Defense -- you know, before we get to this whole Stand Your Ground, what do you make of this, Lisa Bloom? Especially you heard her voice there calling 911.

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVO.COM: Listen, what`s most important are the facts of the case and what the evidence shows. She had to be in reasonable fear of imminent great bodily injury or death before she`s allowed to shoot her husband or anyone else. So that`s what we have to look for.

But I have to say, I`m starting to see a real gender difference in the way that Stand Your Ground is applied in Florida. We saw the Marissa Alexander case where she was initially sentenced for 20 years for just firing a warning shot at her allegedly abusive husband. That was reversed on appeal and now the prosecutor is looking for 60 years against her. Nobody was harmed in that case.

So, is it possible that local prosecutors see men as more able to stand their ground in an argument, that very macho kind of phrase, and women, they`re more skeptical when they have those claims? I don`t know. But I think it`s a question that we should all be asking.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But that`s odd, Sierra Elizabeth because women physically are not as strong as men, so you would think that if anyone need to stand their ground with a weapon and meet force with force perceived hypothetically, that would be a woman.

STEVE GREENBERG, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Amen.

SIERRA ELIZABETH, ATTORNEY: Well, I`m not sure, Jane, because here, we have an atypical woman. She`s not the stereotypical, weak, docile woman. She`s a former U.S. Army captain. And so the jurors are going to look at that with some skepticism here.

But the most important evidence in this case is going to come down to the two domestic violence calls that happened previous to this accident. If Lowe was shown to be the aggressor in any of those former reports, she`s toast.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That backs up her story because there were two DV calls to this house prior. But we don`t know the details yet, so we don`t know who called whom -- who called the cops on whom. And by the way --

GREENBERG: Jane, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- I hope the stereotypical woman isn`t weak anymore. I certainly don`t fit that stereotype.

BLOOM: Hear, hear.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now cops say Valerie didn`t call 911 right away. That she changed her clothes, turned on the porch light, and here`s a key factor, waited a full 12 minutes from the time she turned on that light until she called for help. What was she doing in that time?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be honest with you, I believe the delay was so he would not make any dying utterances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Steve Greenberg, what do you think about that delay? I don`t know how they figured that out. Maybe somebody had the surveillance video of that light going on. But anyway, why the 12 minutes?

GREENBERG: Well, there`s facts you can`t change and that`s the worst fact for her. She didn`t call and when she does call, you don`t hear fear in her voice. You don`t hear any anxiousness in her voice. She, in my opinion, waited the 12 minutes for the exact reason they say, she was waiting for him to die.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you think?

GREENBERG: Unfortunately I know I`m supposed to try and defend this one but this one`s tough.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know. Chuck Williams, nobody knows what happens behind closed doors. What we do know is the victim, Larry, is not here to defend himself and his family says he was a very gentle guy. Final thoughts, Chuck.

CHUCK WILLIAMS, PSYCHOLOGIST: I was going to say psychologically some of the things folks are saying troubles me. The typical woman, you have federal prosecutors, you have professors, senior VPs, those who serve in the sheriff`s department, you know, all kinds of women at all ranges of positions who deal with what`s called battered woman`s syndrome and psychologically that means the partner owns them. So because of their training or where they are, it doesn`t really matter.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Coming up next, we have a guest -- I`m so excited. She`s one of the most powerful, most charismatic women in America. And here`s a hint.

WENDY WILLIAMS, TV HOST: How are you doing?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, you know who I`m talking about. The one and only Wendy Williams is here on our show. And you won`t believe what she`s got to say about Lindsay Lohan and Lindsay`s list of men she has slept with. I am not joking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Greening up doesn`t have to be a daunting task. Here are some of my simple tips to lighten up you carbon footprint. First of all, make sure to pack a sustainable lunch with lots of fruits and veggies. And use bamboo utensils. They`re carbon neutral. They`re biodegradable. That means you don`t need these plastic puppies.

Cleaning products don`t have to be harsh and toxic. In fact, vinegar and water is a perfect combo, a versatile cleaner for everything from floors to windows.

And when you go shopping, don`t use these plastic bags. They can take up to a thousand years to decompose in a landfill. Try reusable bags made from recycled materials and they roll up into a convenient little ball.

Are you an eco-warrior? Share your green tips with #Janesgreenteam at Instagram, Twitter and Facebook.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDSAY LOHAN, ACTRESS: There`s nothing left in having a drink for me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got her.

LOHAN: I don`t want them following me to an AA meeting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you ever feel like you`re a prisoner?

LOHAN: All the time.

People have this image of me that it is chaos.

LOHAN: Good, good, good, good, good. And now -- time to sabotage.

Don`t put words in my mouth. That is not what I signed up for.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has changed things everyday. Not following the rules that they agreed to. Not participating.

OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: This is exactly what everybody said was going to happen. And I believed differently.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight Lindsay Lohan`s shocking little -- or maybe not so little -- black book revealed and looks like Lilo likes to kiss and tell and especially the kiss part. Maybe the tell part, too.

That`s right. According to "In Touch Weekly", Lindsay was boozing allegedly, purportedly, in a Beverly Hills hotel with some friends and allegedly wrote down the names of her famous lovers, 36 of them to be exact. According to "In Touch" Lindsay`s bedpost notches look like a laundry list of who`s who in Hollywood. We`re talking stars. We`re talking, you know, headliners, blockbusters.

Over half of the names of these alleged sexual conquests are blocked out, supposedly for legal reasons. So is this the next level of the Lilo meltdown? Is she giving us front row seats to her brand new reality show? Is this a giant tease, watch me meltdown on the OWN network.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOHAN: Good, good, good, good, good. And then there`s that thing in my head where it`s like, oh, time to sabot sabotage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You woke up yesterday to her mom getting a DUI.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Lindsay feels like she has been tricked, it`s really intense trickery for her.

LOHAN: If I were to do that, I lose and you lose. Until I (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up, you can`t assume I am going to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my God, time to sabotage. Listen, she`s 30 -- she`s 27. She has 36 names on the list and counting. I want to ask my very special guest. If I sound excited, it`s because I am. Wendy Williams, how you doing?

W. WILLIAMS: Hey Jane, how you doing?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m doing great.

W. WILLIAMS: You know, Jane, here`s the thing. The names were blacked out. I have some friends over at "In Touch". the names were blacked out because "In Touch" was teasing us for next week`s issue where they`re going to reveal the other names. It`s 36 guys that we know of, it`s the big famous ones. God only knows how many non-famous guys. I would say that it`s probably 36 and counting.

It`s a lot but believe it or not I assumed that there would be more based on how she lives her life and conducted herself -- Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree. Because 36, ok, it`s a lot but it could be 136, could be 236.

W. WILLIAMS: Based on how we see her live her life.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Well, let`s get to that because obviously this could be a way to promote her reality show on OWN called "Lindsay" which some say is just like a train wreck in action. I think Oprah has done a brilliant job of really exposing the real Lindsay.

This show is not a vanity piece, ok. I mean it`s making headlines but it`s really showing her worst moments. It even exposing her mom`s worst moments, Dina`s DUI as she was pulled over for allegedly driving drunk in New York. Do you think this is good for Lindsay to expose not only her dirty laundry but the entire family`s dirty laundry right there for the world to see?

W. WILLIAMS: I think that it`s a win for Oprah because it does well for her network. It`s a loss for Lindsay because Lindsay, remember, she just got out of rehab for it`s either the sixth or seventh time. Personally speaking I have a hard time believing she`s sober now because I know some people and the streets are talking.

I would not hire her to do a movie. You know why? She`s an insurance liability, you know. There are tons of 27-year-old actresses willing to roll out of bed sober and show up to my movie set. And if I need them to dye their hair red then that`s what wigs are for.

Lindsay Lohan at this particular point needs to go some place and sit down and get sober. I root for Lindsay, unfortunately, I saw the first episode of the docu series.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, me, too.

W. WILLIAMS: Too much. Too much information.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. TMI all over the place and not flattering and what an actress brings to the world is her mystique. And when you see her with the hair down without the makeup, with her eyes running and not -- it`s not a pretty picture. And you know, I wish her the best.

I`m 18 years sober, I`m almost 19 years sober I wouldn`t want for the life of me to have cameras trained on me when I was in early sobriety.

W. WILLIAMS: We share that in common. You know, we come from a place of addiction and I`m looking at this girl and I`m saying she needs to go sit down. And it terms of that acting career, I think it`s pretty much a wrap.

What she needs to do is, you know -- she`d be good like at hosting one of those -- remember Tara Reid had that show "Paradise" where she traveled all around the world and went to parties and drunk and falling out of clubs. Just go with your strength because, you know, focusing on sobriety doesn`t seem to be one of them.

I mean who makes an excuse because paparazzi are outside not to go to the most important meeting of your life at this point which is AA. You saw it. You just ran the clip. Who does that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy, I am so excited to talk to you next about your brilliant idea. I kept saying, why didn`t I think of this? This is a brand new show that is dropping next week. It`s your brainchild. We are going to talk about it on the other side. People, it`s brilliant.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

W. WILLIAMS: As a celebrity, you never know what people really think about you. And sometime every celebrity wishes they heard one thing, the truth.

And thanks to our amazing makeup artist we`re giving it to them. Right now, we`re going to transform two fabulously famous celebrities into everyday Joes and send them undercover so they can hear what real people think of them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you guys buy her as a Broadway actress?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We thought she couldn`t dance. When she was on "Dancing with the Stars", though.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think she can sing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. Not at all.

W. WILLIAMS: Ruthless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, Hollywood`s most famous faces go undercover in an absolutely fantastic new hidden camera reality show to find out what people really think of these stars. "Celebrities Undercover" debuts next Tuesday at 10:30 p.m. on Oxygen. You must watch it. It features a-list stars completely disguised in wigs and full makeup surprising their unsuspecting fans. And the genius behind it is Wendy Williams, the executive producer. Watch as she goes undercover in the "Wendy Williams Show" audience to listen in on the crowd.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

W. WILLIAMS: I absolutely love my Wendy watchers. And I want to find out if that devotion is a two-way street.

This is my chance to find out. So my mission is to find out if my Wendy watchers really support me or do they just show up to my talk show to get free stuff.

What we`re doing today is we are making me up to look like someone else. And I am going to be smack dab in the middle of my Wendy watchers acting out of order and I want to see just how they act when my back is turned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh, Wendy Williams, this is a genius idea.

W. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How the heck did you get this idea and I want to know you learned -- what were they saying about you?

W. WILLIAMS: Well, you know what, the idea came from me, combined with my brilliant team at Wendy Williams Productions. It is brand new and this is our first major project. And I`m very thick-skinned. Of course they say I talk too much. I have a talk show. You know I can`t dance. I was eliminated second on my season of Dancing with the Stars". But what I can do is I can take criticism because I have thick skin.

And the disguises -- I have to give it up to the makeup team on "Celebrities Undercover" because I mean, for instance, Kim Kardashian, they made her face fuller, and gave her, you know, ugly hair as opposed to the beautiful hair that she has and what not.

Joey Fatone is in it. People didn`t recognize Joey Fatone. He played a tour guide on one of the celebrity buses that goes around Hollywood. And so our job is to -- our job as the celebrity is to stir the pot to get people saying what they really feel about us. They were saying he`s the fat one. They were saying he`s washed up. Everything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well you talk about Kim Kardashian and I mean that was one of the major celebrities you snagged for the show. Reality TV princess Kim Kardashian -- we are all obsessed with her. Let`s just admit it and get it over with. Let`s look at her transformation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM KARDASHIAN, REALITY TV STAR: That is right. It is me, Kim Kardashian.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you ever get to eat on your set.

KARDASHIAN: If you like it, take.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s not even here.

KARDASHIAN: Wait, what?

Please don`t tell them that I hooked up with Eminem last night. Can you guys keep a secret?

Hello.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is the thing I find fascinating about this concept, Wendy. You say that nobody will ever tell a celebrity the truth. Why is that?

W. WILLIAMS: Because celebrities are generally surrounded by a bunch of yes-people. And even when fans see them out in public, a fan will never say, "I hate you, Kim Kardashian". Instead, they will be mesmerized by her presence and they will smile, they might even ask for a picture.

But what they say on blogs is how they really feel. And what they say when they don`t know we`re watching is how they really feel. And all of the celebrities played real nice. You know, Little Kim, Ice T -- these are people who -- they know that they have critics out there, Jane, but they also have thick enough skin to deal with the good and the bad.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What was the most shocking reaction of any celebrity from the average American that they said something that the person went oh, my god, that is what they think of me and was horrified?

W. WILLIAMS: You know, there wasn`t one particular shocking reaction, but as you saw in Kim`s, what we staged for that story line is that Kim is -- Kim`s team is interviewing for a new assistant for her. And now there they are in her computer talking about Eminem and also stealing from her. Really? So it`s just a sobering thing.

I mean listen, it was a delight working with the celebrities and getting the show done and I`m so proud of this project. And, you know, I want to thank Oxygen for airing the show. And I can`t wait to see your reaction.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I`m going to watch it religiously because I`m a fan of yours Wendy. And I`m so glad that you have me on the show every so often to just say things because it`s a lot of fun.

W. WILLIAMS: You are part of my dream team on "Hot Talk".

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I love it.

Make sure you watch "The Wendy Williams Show", obviously her big show; and also this fabulous new show of hers, "Celebrities Undercover", next Tuesday night at 10:30 p.m. on Oxygen. Write it on your hand. Write it on your hand so that you remember to watch because it is a lot of fun. And everything Wendy does turns to gold. We love you -- Wendy Williams.

Nancy next.

END