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Outrage & Anger: Families March on Embassy
Aired March 25, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Flight 370 families reacting with anger, even violence. Is this a natural expression of grief or something much more?
Plus, shocking YouTube videos that tell students how to get a teacher fired.
And the twisted rape fantasy that ended badly for everyone. We`ve got the 911 call.
CALLER: I was home alone and he broke into my house and this guy just came in my room.
PINSKY: Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.
My co-host is Sirius XM Radio`s Jenny Hutt.
And coming up, teachers -- you will not believe this -- some students out there may be trying to get you fired. And we`ll show you how they`re doing it.
But first, anger and frustration, loved ones march to the Malaysian embassy in Beijing, outraged by the handling of Flight 370. Have a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Flight MH370 ended in a southern Indian Ocean.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Outraged and fury as relatives face off with police outside the Malaysian embassy in Beijing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the beginning, they just hide everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday`s news was incredibly hard for the family members. It was out of commitment to openness and respect for the relatives.
PINSKY: Families were notified at first via text message.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To principles which had guided in our investigations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have to assume beyond all reasonable doubt that MH370 has been lost.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I don`t think that this kind of government, a liar and even a murderer, has solved anything. I don`t believe they can solve everything.
PINSKY: Joining us: Segun Oduolowu, social commentator, Michelle Fields, correspondent for PJ Media, and Evy Poumpouras, security expert and former special agent in the Secret Service.
Here`s what we know today. Right at the moment, more than 300 relatives and friends marched to the embassy, Malaysian Airlines offering $5,000 compensation for each passengers and explained in a text that in hopes if they did the text, in hopes of alerting the families before the media got a hold of the information.
The Australian defense minister says, quote, "We`re not searching for the needle in the hay stack. We`re still trying to find where the haystack is." They`re still trying to find the haystack.
Segun, these loved ones cannot catch a break. What are your thoughts on the text message?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Dr. Drew, I feel that that is absolutely ridiculous. First of all, the amount they are offering for the price of life, that`s a slap in the face. And then it feels like it is a really bad movie. In the "Dark Knight Returns", Bain says, if he`s dead, show me the body.
You`re telling me the plane is lost? Well, if you believe that it`s lost, show me some body, show me some evidence that it`s lost, as oppose to just say, we don`t know where it is. We assumed that it`s lost. That`s so disrespectful for the people mourning and waiting for real, tangible news.
I`m appalled with what the Malaysian government is doing and the airline in general.
PINSKY: Michelle, $5,000, what do you think of that?
MICHELLE FIELDS, PJ MEDIA: It`s insulting. I mean, what are they offering next? Fifty percent off coupon for their next flight? What these people want are answers.
They don`t want someone to come to them and say, here is $5,000. Now shut up. That`s basically what they are doing. They`re preventing them from protesting, preventing them from speaking up.
When all these people want are answers. That`s it. They just want a conclusion from all of this.
PINSKY: Right. And, Evy, it looks like reasonably they probably won`t have answers for some time. Maybe a long time. The latest efforts have been suspended because of the weather. What do you know about the latest?
EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: OK. Well, the information that we`re hearing now is actually the U.S. navy is sending over a new device, a TPL. So, it`s a tow pinger locator. What that will do is go to the search area and help locate the black box.
Essentially, it`s expected to arrive at Perth tomorrow. It`ll take a couple of days to install. They are going to install it on an Australian vessel. That will take probably three days. And then they`re going to sail out 1,500 miles west of Perth to the search area.
The kicker is this: it won`t get there until April 5th. So the problem is, we are running out of days. That only leaves with us handful of days to find the black box.
PINSKY: And my understanding, Evy, is that the provisional hay stack that they will lock for the needle win, is the size of -- twice the size of Texas. Is that about right?
POUMPOURAS: Yes. It`s a large size. And this vessel, when it`s attached to the vessel, it can only travel between one and five knots. It can`t go fast. So that`s a problem.
Now with the 30 days, I do want to say this. Everyone has marked the 30 days as the final end point. It is not. Those black boxes are expected to last at least 30 days.
So, depending on the expectancy, the life expectancy of the battery, it could go on an extra 15 days. We don`t know that.
But 30 days is not the exact end point. It could go further.
PINSKY: All right. We actually have an audio sample of the black box ping, so to speak. Let`s take a look and listen to that.
(PINGER AUDIO EXAMPLE)
PINSKY: My question is, first of all, is this monitored by human ears or is it purely a computer sort of simulation or even some sort of almost satellite device?
And if so, are there going to be able to zero in on a zone that they`re going towards as soon as they hit that region?
POUMPOURAS: OK. So it`s both. It can be heard by human operator and also by the technological software. What it is, it`s a 3-foot microphone attached it a cable that can run as far as 20,000 feet. It`s put into the water and it basically searches the waters.
So both human ear can hear it and also as well as the tech -- you know, the technology aspect of it.
Now, the radius depends on basically the water and what`s going on. So, you can hear between one mile and two miles. That`s the problem. If we don`t know where the haystack is, how do we get close enough to the sound to detect it?
PINSKY: That seems weird to me that it`s a two-mile radius. I mean, you would home a 500-mile or 200-mile radius. So much of what I`m learning about the technology protecting aviation, it seems sort of ancient, Evy. Can`t we do better than that?
POUMPOURAS: You know, it does. And a lot of people are complaining about technology. And you know, on one point, why is it taking so long to bring this vessel all the way over to Perth now? I mean, we could have done this earlier in the beginning. We don`t know what hold-up there was.
But if for whatever reason, let`s say the black box, the signal goes out, then they will use sonar to basically tape the sound, echo it into the bottom of the ocean, and let that sound reflect up. Then they can tell basically on the depth of how that sonar bounces off the ground level of the ocean floor. That`s what they will use to try to find the black box at that point. But it could take a long time.
ODUOLOWU: And, Evy, and no disrespect to the security agency you once worked for, but in all fairness, Tupac got shot in Vegas in front of 2,000 people and they have no idea who shot him. You are telling us, they are trying to find a plane in the middle of the ocean and we should have faith in the same people that cannot locate or have no idea where it went? Why should we believe that human ears with sonar and --
PINSKY: Is it likely?
ODUOLOWU: I mean, come on. We have no more faith in any of the agencies to do their job.
POUMPOURAS: And you raise up a good point. The things you are saying are correct. They did say, it is possible we may never find it. So, you bring up a valid point.
But the one thing is you have the United States and you have Australia, everybody working together.
PINSKY: All right. We got to leave it there.
Behavior bureau is here next to talk about the affects of families who actually marched on the embassy. There you see that.
And later, are students using YouTube to get teachers fired? We will show what you some are doing. Back with that, after this.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny.
The families of families onboard Flight 370 are demanding some real evidence that the plane crashed into the ocean. The longer they are waiting, the angrier they are getting.
Jenny, here is a tweet from Helen Wedekind. She says, "Any debris recovered yet?" I think we all know that`s no. "Taking forever on this and I understand families wanting proof. Such agony."
I understand that. Don`t you?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Well, of course, they want proof. And the best possible scenarios, Dr. Drew, they would have proof two weeks ago. But, unfortunately, that`s hard to find in the middle of the Indian Ocean. It`s a terrible set of circumstances.
PINSKY: It`s terrible. And yet, the overwhelming probability is they`re gone --
HUTT: They`re gone, Dr. Drew. They are gone.
PINSKY: Let`s bring in behavior bureau, Tiffanie Henry Davis, HLN contributor and psychotherapist, Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger".
So, you guys, again, I want to bring up what I talked about last night and you -- Cheryl and Tiffanie, you were not here. Tiffanie, one of your alters might have been, I`m not sure.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: You never know. You never know.
PINSKY: But this is yet a new one. Nice to meet you, Tiffanie.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, POP TRIGGER: The hair looks good.
PINSKY: Awesome, by way. As they all do. All of your alters, I don`t know how you pull that one off.
HENRY: Hair and make-up team here, honey. I look like Medusa when I come in. They pull it all together.
PINSKY: Just another alter, evidently.
But I want to -- let me start with you, Tiffanie, which is yesterday, I was asking, how do we as a helping professional, help someone who might be dealing with this grief, and when we can`t say for sure the people are gone. If they were to come to you and said, Tiffanie, I want your help, is it real? I`m testing reality, are they gone? And what do you say? I think so?
HENRY: Well, I think you meet them where they are. That`s what we do as clinicians. You know, if someone is in the stage of denial, you meet them right there where they are in denial, and say, you know, I understand why you are feeling this way. And, look, they have a reason to be in denial right now because they don`t have any concrete evidence. No facts about what actually happened.
Some of them may have moved to the place of acceptance, where Jenny is, and saying, you know, these people are gone. But that doesn`t mean that they still aren`t angry, that they still don`t want proof, that they still are depressed, they`re anxious about the outcome.
These people deserve answers. And I think it is very cavalier and dismissive of airlines to just say, here is $5,000. Now, go on and don`t ask any more questions. Don`t protest.
PINSKY: Cheryl, what are your thoughts.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, what we do know is that the absolute worst time is being in limbo. There is nothing worse than not knowing. You can`t get busy coping with whatever the inevitability is.
The other thing is trauma is 10,000 times worse when it`s done by a human being making a decision. So, if this was done by terrorism or by someone making a choice to make this happen, that has very big implications for people`s coping. Whereas if it was a mechanical failure that`s nobody`s fault, that`s something else.
So, I really think these people have gone through torture emotionally the past couple weeks. I understand their rage.
PINSKY: But, Cheryl, that`s my question. We understand it. But how would you -- now, Tiffanie, said she would meet them where they are, if they`re in denial, delusional, whatever. But would you be able to reassure them and begin them in the grief process by saying, I think they`re gone and that`s that.
Or because this is still such an uncertain situation, are you left in the same limbo as the family?
ARUTT: Well, I would start out meeting them where they were be as Tiffany said.
However, I do think, at a certain point, when people are stuck in that kind of limbo and refusing to grief, after a long period of time, failure to grief causes depression an all kind of other problems, and I think I would explore with somebody what the cost is to them to continue to focus on staying in limbo rather than focusing on the people who are still here and their lives and coping and helping -- encourage them to realize that they are alive and their lives are going on and they need to be able to mourn and be here.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, I have a question for our clinicians.
SCHACHER: To be able to be a voice for your family and to be an advocate for them, as these family members are doing while they`re protesting, I would imagine that it`s helping them at the moment, because it`s better than the alternative of being silent and helpless.
That doesn`t help the grieving process.
PINSKY: Hang on a second. You are asking two questions in one. A, one, does it help the grieving? And the other is, in a way, they sort of feeling as though somebody has to advocate for my loved one just in case they are out there somewhere, right?
SCHACHER: Just to get answers regardless.
PINSKY: There is a reality -- I understand. So, answers even if it`s a tragedy, defend them if they need help and also help in my own grieving.
Tiffanie, what are your thoughts?
HENRY: I absolutely 100 percent agree. If you think after case like Trayvon Martin, his family did not stop. Jordan Davis` family, they did not stop. Kendrick Johnson, the kid that was wrapped up here in Georgia, his parents did not stop. They want answers.
I think that`s what these folks have to do. The great thing about this is not one of those folks is alone. They have other people that are going through the exact same thing they are going through. And there is strength in numbers. There is a little bit of comfort in having those numbers there.
PINSKY: We saw they all marched on the Malaysian embassy last night. I mean, they`re actually -- there is a group aggression developing too. It`ll be interesting to see how that plays out. I don`t know quite where that is coming from. I wonder if it is something to do with -- a cultural thing, about the relationship with the government or authority. I don`t know. We`ll have to see how that play is out.
Behavior bureau is back with our experts answering your questions after this. You can tweet us @DrDrewHLN #370Qs. We will get to your questions after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POUMPOURAS: I was at the World Trade Center in September 11th. I was there when the first plane crashed to the second tower collapsing. I endured the whole thing. And to this day, I am not afraid of flying.
So, whether this is a mechanical error or maybe it`s terrorism or hijacking, we can`t live like this. I can`t live like this. So, my thing is, you know what, this is just the way it is. We have to endure and be brave and we can`t be fearful of living.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt, as well as our security expert whom you just heard there, Evy Poumpouras, and joining the behavior bureau, along with Tiffanie and Cheryl.
And, Evy, I wonder how your experience, having been there and witnessed 9/11 is informing your understanding of this crisis.
POUMPOURAS: You know, all touched on something earlier with the behavior bureau. You talked about how, when you`re going through something like this, when have you others going through it, it is easier to deal with. And as far as for myself, regarding what you just played about my experience, it was easier for me to cope and deal with because there were so many people that endured what I went through.
And so having others, and I also volunteered for search and rescue efforts for weeks following that. That actually helped me cope. Being around other people, facing the same problems and the same issues.
PINSKY: Let me specify what you just said. It is not just that you were reaching out and connecting to others. You made sense of your experience by being of service to people who were suffering in the circumstances, sort of a way of, making sense of the whole thing.
POUMPOURAS: It also gave me peace, it kind of gave me an outlet and kind of made -- helped me deal with it, as far as making amends with everything. Absolutely.
PINSKY: Does that make sense to you guys, Cheryl?
ARUTT: It really does. It also really helps with the powerlessness. When something like this happens, people feel so powerless. When they can do something constructive to help, it helps them heal.
PINSKY: Doing something, for the powerlessness, and also, Tiffanie, being genuinely of service to people to help, which is tremendously the healing.
HENRY: Of course, at that time of the moment when you can`t make sense of any of it, it`s important to find some sense of service. And if all you can do is help someone else and realize you are in this situation because you are supposed to be of service to someone else, that may be all that folks have to go on and it totally will make everything a lot better.
HUTT: For the rest of us, Dr. Drew, who aren`t thankfully having family members on the plane or at 9/11, there is still a tremendous amount of fear surrounding what`s happened. Whether a hijacking, whether it`s mechanical failure, why do bad things happen, and how to we, Dr. Drew, how do we manage the fear and anxiety that comes from this sort of crazy unthinkable event?
PINSKY: Do you guys -- let me ask the other professionals, I`m not sure if this is the kind of thing that shakes our sense of security, because people can just not fly. Those of us that do fly, I mean, Evy says she doesn`t concerned about it. I`m not concerned about it.
What do you think, Cheryl?
ARUTT: I am hearing from my people in therapy that they have more anxiety about flying. They may be more anxious any way. But I do think that this does -- when people see it in the news, it does make it seem more likely or more immediate that something could go wrong. >
PINSKY: Even though it is unlikely -- Evy, give us that data again.
POUMPOURAS: Yes. They did a research study in 2012. They documented approximately 281 people died in a plane crash. And about a hundred of those were not even commercial. In 2013, 34,000 people died in car accidents alone. Those numbers are staggering.
So, we have so many more people dying in car accident. But yet, you know, we don`t think of it that way. But with the plane, and I think psychologically, with regard to the plane, that sense of that you`re not in control. You`re not flying the plane. It`s large number of people in a small confined space. So, it`s a little bit kind of freakish.
PINSKY: Yes, it is that, Evy, it were to happen, it would be 100 percent, it would be so horrible, the process would be horrible. But it`s also a cognitive distortion, Jenny, to answer your question, that we are more likely to die in a car crash than any plane. And it`s really about helping people adjust that thought.
ARUTT: They still worry about it. People say, I know it is safer.
PINSKY: Listen, it goes back things that people say, you know, one person dying is a tragedy, a hundred is an incident. Our brains do that. Our brains has crazy way of star distorting things. Let`s get to some tweets from Fareeha -- she`s actually a journalist in Pakistan. "MH370 has also exposed how unsafe and afraid we are, so still years of war post-9/11 have not made us any safer."
Again, that`s a distortion. Evy, don`t you agree?
POUMPOURAS: Yes. I mean, it somewhat is. But at some point, as far as security measures, you would have thought after 9/11, certain things would have been a little bit more sophisticated and secure, with regards to flying, the transponders, all these things, which I think will change now as a result of this Malaysia flight. We`re going to have technology updated and certain things will change significantly.
PINSKY: Next up, we are moving on to a disturbing story that surfaced on YouTube. Kids may be instructing other kid on how to get their teachers fired.
And later, a sex game that went really wrong and ended up with the person who planned it in big trouble. We have a crazy 9/11 call after this.
PINSKY: Jenny and I are back. Videos have been posted on YouTube in which students brag about getting their teachers fired and even give advice, Jenny, to other kids on how to get rid of one they don`t like, crazy.
PINSKY: I know, here we are.
Just one of the videos we found here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED KID: So, we`re going to tell you guys about how we got our first grade teacher fired.
She didn`t like us. She really didn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: We hated her.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: She hated us.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: And we hated her back.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: We got her pretty good. But they said we didn`t show that much evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: So we got like a lot more. We got people to sign, like who want her out. Like out of the classroom.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: We just kept doing it, even if we got in trouble.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: It was pretty cool. We got more tape recorders and finally they just threw her out.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: I think she quit.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: I don`t know. We gave her a lot for her to handle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Michelle, Segun, also joining me Gina Grad, host of "Pretty Good Podcast." She`s also the co-host of a podcast and my own wife called "Calling Out," and on the phone I`ve got Steve Perry, principal and founder of Capital Preparatory Magnet School. Steve, are you seeing this and what do you make of all this?
STEVE PERRY, EDUCATOR: I`m seeing it and it`s unconscionable. It`s the Salem Witch Trials without the flair for the - for the dramatic. It just rips apart the lives of these teachers whose only crime is coming in and trying to deliver a world-class education. There`s nothing socially redeeming about this.
PINSKY: And my understanding is you actually had a particular case where a kid like videotaped something his teacher was doing, it went viral and ruined the teacher`s career.
PERRY: We didn`t have a situation - it did happen we had a situation in which that was threatened to happen, meaning that a child did do a videotape of a teacher and did post it because as soon as they videotape it, they post it. And in both context and in content, it`s mean-spirited. And both the child and the school as a result of really disgusting conduct.
PINSKY: Segun, you were a teacher. Can you imagine this going on? And by the way, it`s really - it`s bullying of teachers.
SEGUN ODUOLOW, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Dr. Drew, not only can I imagine it, I`ve seen it before. And there`s certain rules when I was teaching. For example, I would never lecture a student after class without the door being open. There are so many ways that you have to double and triple check yourself because kids nowadays - and I`ll be very honest - I blame a lot of this on parents who - back in the day when your child got a bad grade, you would talk to your child and not blame the teacher.
ODUOLOW: Nowadays parents blame the teacher for anything that goes wrong in a classroom, and because of that -
PINSKY: I absolutely agree with it. We`re not holding on, Michelle, what`s next?
MICHELLE FIELDS, CORRESPONDENT, PJ MEDIA: Look, I`m going to pick the unpopular position here and say that we don`t know the backstory. We don`t know whether these are bad students or this was a bad teacher. It may be an unpopular fact, but the truth is there are a lot of terrible teachers in America that do not get fired because they have a lot of protections from unions. So to assume that these are just a bunch of punks I think is unfair because we don`t know what exactly happened. They said that they filmed some stuff and showed it to the principal. We don`t know what it was that they filmed of the teacher doing.
FIELDS: So I think it`s unfair to jump to conclusions here.
ODUOLOW: No, actually, -- whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second -
PINSKY: Hang on, hang on (inaudible). What`s that`s Segun, what`s the deal?
ODUOLOW: Well first of all, every school has a policy that cell phones shouldn`t even be allowed in the class. So the fact that they`re filming a -
FIELDS: OK, then but that`s the teacher`s fault -
ODUOLOW: -- hold on a second -
FIELDS: -- that`s the teacher`s fault.
ODUOLOW: No, no, no, no. If their kids are bringing cell phones into classes when they`re not supposed to, they`re already breaking a rule. So you`re asking me to believe a rule breaker?
FIELDS: But if the teacher did something inappropriate, if the teacher did something inappropriate that led to her firing, that`s not the student`s fault.
ODUOLOW: In front of 30 students?
PINSKY: Hold on.
PINSKY: Hold on. Jenny, you have school aged kids, what do you say?
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY AND HLN CO-HOST OF THE "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: Yes, I was just going to say to Segun - Segun, a parent should talk to a child about a bad grade and potentially the teacher too -
PINSKY: Yes but don`t blame the teacher.
HUTT: -- sometimes teachers don`t (inaudible) -
PINSKY: Do not blame the -
HUTT: -- hold on.
PINSKY: -- teacher. Parents are altogether too likely to blame the teacher for child`s performance.
HUTT: You know what - and first of all - and in terms of the cell phones in the classrooms -
FIELDS: You don`t even know what happened here.
HUTT: -- I don`t have a problem with that, Segun because in today`s world I`m happy -
ODUOLOW: No child, no child should have a cell phone.
FIELDS: You can`t blindly defend this teacher.
ODUOLOW: Well, let me ask you this - all you on the panel --
FIELDS: -- when you don`t even know what happened.
ODUOLOW: All of you on the panel -
FIELDS: there`s no way -
ODUOLOW: -- did you bring a cell phone to class? All of you on the panel -
FIELDS: I would have.
ODUOLOW: My point is -
PINSKY: I would`ve had to bring a rotary phone to class if I brought something to class when I was in grade school. But Gina, I`ve not heard from you yet. What`s going on?
GINA GRAD, HOST, "PRETTY GOOD PODCAST": Yes, first of all, I think there is some sort of a crime being committed in class, the fact that we have technology and that kids can record instead of being this little, tiny person against an authority figure and just playing he said, she said, I think it`s amazing that -
GRAD: -- little people can stand up for themselves. However, if this is going to ruin a teacher`s life, ruin an adult`s life, it`s not just about the adult at this point. This is putting tons of children at risk who are actually being preyed upon who nobody`s going to believe because there`s been so much crying wolf, there`s been so much suspicion, now you`re going to have cases like, you know, what`s going on with Miramonte with all of these things and people are going to go, well wait a second - did something really happen or did you just get a bad grade? So these little kids who were already victims --
ODUOLOW: This is quite possibly - this is quite possibly the worst argument I`ve ever heard adults give about teacher`s in a classroom -
GRAD: Come in.
FIELDS: You don`t even know - wait, wait, wait - you don`t even know the whole story, you don`t even know the whole story.
ODUOLOW: Have any of you - wait - have any of you been teachers?
FIELDS: Wait, no, let me talk - you`ve been talking.
ODUOLOW: Have any of you been teachers?
FIELDS: It`s very difficult for me to believe - it`s very difficult for me to believe - that these two kids just came up with this video that got this teacher fired -
ODUOLOW: Have you ever been a teacher?
FIELDS: -- it`s probably a combination.
PINSKY: Hold that thought both of you. Michelle, Segun. Per our producers - here`s what I - hang on - meshuga, hang on a second. I`ve not been a teacher, Segun, to answer your question. But hold on a second. I would like to be able to continue this conversation in the next block. Can we go on and do (ph) that? Keep this panel together, we`re going to keep this going in the next block - the same group - and we`re going to have also a police report that for the police files you just can`t make up. It`s crazy. A rape fantasy turns into a nightmare for a woman who thought the whole thing up - yes - I know it`s hard to follow, but I will show that to you after we finish our - after we answer Segun`s questions, frankly. Back after this.
PINSKY: Jenny and I are back with Segun, Michelle, Gina. We`re discussing videos that have been posted on YouTube in which students - young students - brag about getting their teachers fired. They even give advice to other children on how to get rid of someone they don`t like. And before the break, Segun was asking my charged-up panel here if any of us been teachers, and the answer to that is no.
ODUOLOW: You see but - and Dr. Drew, here`s what makes me so mad about the argument that these ladies gave. I didn`t say that they`re there aren`t good teachers or bad teachers, but these kids in this case were bragging about how to get a teacher fired. So their motivation is so off -
FIELDS: Well, this case - hold on -
ODUOLOW: -- that you could you defended them is ridiculous.
FIELDS: I have not, I have not been -
FIELDS: I have not been a teacher but I have been a student and there have been terrible teachers who have tons of protections because of unions and do not get fired despite their terrible performance.
PINSKY: Well I think we learned Michelle had a bad experience with teachers. I`m going to get to that in a minute. But, Gina, were you a teacher, Gina?
GRAD: I wasn`t a teacher, I was a camp counselor for seven years. I was in charge of little people my entire life. And I love them to death and I would do anything for them. I`ve grabbed things out of - you know - kids` mouths and I`ve done CPR and I`ve done - I would lay down for any of those kids and do anything for them.
GRAD: But I
Female: But (LAUGHTER).
GRAD: - but obviously I`m not going to, you know, go quietly if you know I just you know - I had to take somebody`s finger paints away and then I get accused of something heinous. Obviously, Segun.
ODUOLOW: With all due respect, a classroom and a camp counseling situation is very different. You`re talking about trying to educate -
GRAD: But I`m still - no, no, no, no.
ODUOLOW: You`re missing my point.
GRAD: I`m still in charge of children.
ODUOLOW: If I give a kid a bad grade - if I give a kid a bad grade and they don`t like the grade, they can say I verbally -
FIELDS: You`re not going to be fired for that.
ODUOLOW: You would be surprised - OK. OK,
PINSKY: Listen, but then what if -
ODUOLOW: None of you have been in a classroom.
PINSKY: -- yes, what if Segun got upset, they taped that then they misrepresented the context. But, Michelle, what happened to you, Michelle? What went on? Where`d get so - you seem like you`ve had a lot of schooling. How bad have teachers been to you?
FIELDS: No, I`ve had great. I have - I have had amazing teachers. However, I`ve also had really bad teachers in the LA Unified School District system, so I know what it`s like to be powerless -
FIELDS: -- and a lot of these students do feel powerless. They want to get rid of these teachers and the teachers don`t go. They have tenure and they don`t leave.
PINSKY: All right. Hold on. Hold on, everybody, hold on. And Steve Perry is still with me. Steve, Perry, you heard where this conversation turned, what is your thought?
PERRY: Well, I`ll say this. I think that there`s something valid in one of the - in what each of the panelists are saying. There are many teachers who are protected by unions. This is not, however, about protection against - about unions. This is the intent of what the children are doing is in fact bad. Their intention is to cause harm.
ODUOLOW: Thank you, Mr. Perry.
PERRY: I do think - I do also think that it`s important that we take into consideration children`s perspective.
PERRY: When I let teachers go, when I let teachers go, it most often is because kids complained to us. There is a process in place -
PERRY: -- that when the - when the administration does their job, teachers are removed regardless of whether or not they`re union.
PERRY: I do, however, think that what these young people are doing is preying upon teachers and -
PINSKY: Or bullying - or bullying at least.
PERRY: -- it`s the same way in which if someone videotaped us scolding our children, we would look like bad parents.
ODUOLOW: Thank you, Mr. Perry.
PERRY: They`re not looking to capture -
PINSKY: However -
PERRY: -- they`re not looking to capture the full extent of what these teachers have to offer, they`re looking at them at their very worst.
PINSKY: Thank you, Steve. Jenny, you`ve come over to Segun`s side, is that what I`m seeing?
HUTT: No, I will not come over to Segun`s side.
PINSKY: Oh it looked like it.
HUTT: Because I think. No, no, no, it did not look like - I was agreeing with what Steve just said that sometimes teachers are bad and they take it into account. In this case - this specific case - those boys are mean-spirited. But I`m not going - Segun, I think, Segun, you`re a little bit defensive on behalf of the teachers and I think this panel loves teachers and just doesn`t love the bad teachers.
ODUOLOW: No, it`s not about bad teachers, Jenny, it`s about the motivation of the kids in this case. You all came at me and said there are good teachers, bad teachers -
HUTT: But you don`t know what the teacher did bad.
ODUOLOW: No, no, no, but the kids -
HUTT: You don`t know what motivated these students.
ODUOLOW: -- the kids in this case - the kids in this case were malicious as the principal said. They were telling other kids how to get teachers fired. That`s wrong.
PINSKY: All right, yes, all right, so let me settle this. So, Segun, I agree with you bullying is not OK if they`re bullying teachers and there`s due process - just let the administration do their job. Michelle, I agree with you - teacher`s union do get in the way of certain things and that`s a bigger -
PINSKY: -- conversation and God bless you for surviving the LA Unified School District. My friend -
PINSKY: -- my friend Adam Carolla - my friend Adam Corolla, not a dumb guy, came out of there unable to read. Thank you, LA Unified -
Female: Oh my God.
PINSKY: -- has not forgiven them that, so they have some `esplainin`` to do. All right, panel, I want to bring out "Behavior Bureau," they`ve been standing by. And later, a rape fantasy turned into a nightmare -
PINSKY: -- for the woman who thought the whole thing up. Back after this.
PINSKY: A frantic 911 call from a woman claiming she was raped.
Wife: Help me! Help me!
PINSKY: But it`s not what you think. It was a sex game that didn`t go down as intended. Cops say this woman arranged for a man she met on Craigslist to come to her house and act out a so-called rape fantasy. What she didn`t expect was for her husband to walk in right as this kinky fantasy was playing out. The wife then accused the man of actual rape and even called 911.
Wife: Someone broke in my house and my husband just got home. He had me tied up!
PINSKY: Back with Jenny, -
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: : Ah!
PINSKY: -- Tiffanie, Sheryl and Sam.
PINSKY: Oh, boy. Police eventually discovered she was lying when she - when the man that was - had her tied up - showed the police the text and e- mails that she had sent detailing what she wanted done to her. She was then forced to pay $5,000 and sentenced to a 100 hours of community service. Sam, you`re saying "uh huh, yeah, uh huh" - what do you mean?
SCHACHER: Well, here`s the thing, Dr. Drew, I`ve actually researched -
PINSKY: Oh, stop right there. You`ve actually what?
SCHACHER: I`ve actually covered a case very similar to this on the Young Turks Network, and what surprised me is that women - a lot of women - have - it`s more common than you would believe - that they have these near- rape or rape fantasies.
SCHACHER: -- and a lot of them feel guilty about it, but here`s the thing. Because they feel so ashamed, they may reach out via social media or via Craigslist to a stranger because they`re ashamed of the fantasy and that`s what happens.
PINSKY: All right, hold on, wait, wait. Wait, but, Jenny, you`re --
Female: Wait, why - who`s saying (inaudible).
PINSKY: -- before we go to the - before we go to the clinical side, I want to go -
SCHACHER: I`m telling you what I`ve found.
PINSKY: -- and, you`re right - you`re not wrong, Sam. You know Jenny went `uh huh, of course they do." Jenny you want to ring in on this?
HUTT: Yes, I think everybody could have different -
HUTT: -- sort of wanton fantasies, Dr. Drew, and that`s all OK in a safe, consensual environment. However, this lady is - I don`t - is a `blank hole.` That`s what she is. Crying rape.
PINSKY: All right, well. All right. Hang on. Let me go to the - Sam, why? Sam, why are you upset?
SCHACHER: OK, you`re missing my point. The point is the reason why - and I`m not condoning it -
PINSKY: No, I get the point -
SCHACHER: I`m not condoning it -
PINSKY: -- the point is - Sam, Sam, the point is it`s a fantasy people feel ashamed of so they do it anonymously. There`s more going on though when -
PINSKY: -- people are exiting a marriage to cheat -
SCHACHER: Of course.
PINSKY: -- to act out a fantasy and then get into a rapturous state. I want to play the 911 call for you, and then our clinicians are going to ring in on this. So, the husband walks in, the wife then claims she`s being raped, calls 911 - listen to this.
Wife: Help me! Help me! My husband just got home and he was trying to hurt me. Someone broke in my house and my husband just got home. He had me tied up and the guy, he was trying to say I wanted him here and he`s trying to show my husband and (inaudible) - I never wrote him. I don`t know who this guy is!
Operator: So there`s a guy there that`s trying to say that you know him or are involved with him somehow? So you and your husband are there with this one other male?
Wife: I was home alone and he broke into my house and this guy just came in my room.
Operator: Can you please tell me what`s going on?
Husband: So this guy`s in my house and he says he has e-mails from my wife saying that she`s into some kind of rape fantasy.
PINSKY: And there it is. Cheryl, you`re anxious to give us an opinion here, go ahead.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D.: Awkward.
ARUTT: Oh, my goodness. OK, here is - here is the thing - that - where do we even begin? Rape fantasy. You are the one who`s casting it, directing it, totally in control, the opposite of an actual rape. Here`s the problem - when somebody does something like this - and that upset by the way on that call was absolutely real upset -
ARUTT: -- but it was upset because, oh my God, my husband caught us. That`s what that upset was. But when you do this, you end up undermining all of the people who actually are - actually
ARUTT: -- victims.
ARUTT: -- and destroy their credibility, you know? If women could be - be OK with being sexual and not have to construct a rape fantasy to not have to take responsibility -
ARUTT: -- for being sexual -
PINSKY: Yes, yes.
ARUTT: -- and just take responsibility for whatever they do, we wouldn`t be here.
ARUTT: But my concern is this hurts victims.
PINSKY: All right, so there`s that. That`s one possibility is that all of that upset was that she - the husband caught here. That`s - to me that`s sort of the more Jodi Arias-esque kind of borderline behavior. Will you agree with that, Tiffanie and Cheryl? Nod your heads yes kind of borderline stuff?
ARUTT: For sure.
ARUTT: In the heat of the moment, yes.
PINSKY: Tiffanie, the other possibility though is that she actually re-traumatized herself, flipped into some kind of weird dissociative rage and really believed she was being raped.
ARUTT: No way.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST AND HEADLINE NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: No.
PINSKY: No, you don`t - Tiffanie, Tiffanie, no way? No way, OK.
HENRY: Child, please.
ARUTT: She didn`t want to be investigated.
Female: Didn`t want to get caught.
HENRY: She was upset that she got caught, that her husband came home --
Females: Right, yes.
HENRY: -- for lunch when he wasn`t supposed to. She had it all planned out. She got caught. She was like oh, crap, I`m going to call the police and play along with this, and the bottom line is you`re not smarter than the police. At some point this was going to come out.
Female: They`re going to know.
HUTT: How about how smart the guy was?
PINSKY: Wait a minute. Hold it.
ARUTT: A very risky game to play
PINSKY: Keep this conversation going. Back after this.
Husband: So this guy`s in my house and he says he has e-mails from my wife saying that she`s into some kind of rape fantasy. He`s still here. I want him to stay here. I want the copes here to figure out what the f***`s going on.
PINSKY: Back with Tiffanie, Cheryl, Sam, Jenny. We`re talking about a rape fantasy gone bad when the husband walked in on his wife acting this thing out. I suggested that she had re-traumatizd herself by engaging in a rape fantasy. You all attacked me for that one.
PINSKY: But, Cheryl, people that really need these sort of rape fantasies - these sort of aggressive fantasies - sometimes have trauma histories in their childhood and can re-traumatize themselves, right?
ARUTT: They can re-traumatize themselves. One of the things that really baffles people with an actual rape is it`s not uncommon in an acquaintance rape situation for the victim to go back and sleep with the rapist on purpose -
PINSKY: And -
ARUTT: -- and people get shocked -
PINSKY: -- and, Cheryl - become hypersexual for months afterwards.
PINSKY: And the victim, confused by it, not understanding why she is reenacting the trauma.
ARUTT: Can we say why though?
PINSKY: Go ahead.
ARUTT: Because this is something where it`s like wanting a do-over but to make it come out differently. It`s like wanting to master it. `This time I meant to do that` or `sex doesn`t mean anything so nothing really valuable was taken away from me.` It doesn`t mean she wasn`t raped originally. It`s something that is a reenactment of the trauma and there are multiple reasons why. The why -
PINSKY: And there are neurobiological reasons -
PINSKY: -- our brains do that do us. Tiffanie.
HENRY: You know, Dr. Drew, I thought it was very interesting how calm the husband seemed on the phone call. And it made me wonder if he kind of thought maybe this was some kind of joke or the wife actually set it up. Like, why was he home for lunch for lunch that day if he never comes home for lunch? Like did he suspect his wife was cheating -
HENRY: -- to begin with and, you know - he held the guy there.
HENRY: I know if my husband came home - yes, if my husband came home and caught me in that kind of position, he`s beating, he`s kicking butt and then making a call later.
PINSKY: I`m just -- I`m just wondering which of Tiffanie`s alters would make that 911 call. I`m just saying, I`m just saying. I`m just saying (LAUGHTER).
ARUTT: At least the guy wasn`t shot. I mean, why goodness.
PINSKY: But let`s go back, Sam, to what Tiffanie`s saying, is that this - listen, I think this is the Jodi Arias zone. This is a personality disorder, this is something -
HENRY: I agree.
PINSKY: -- that creates chaos. This is somebody who is sort of in some way gratified for all this spin that she creates.
SCHACHER: I think you`re right. And I think that this husband already knows this about his wife, hence why he wasn`t all that angry and surprised. And he was not quick to doubt the other man that was there. He wanted to wait for the police to get there as well and hear the whole story unravel. So I think that this wasn`t all that of a surprise for the husband too.
HUTT: Yes, or this wife - like I said before - is just a jerk, Dr. Drew, and she was stepping out on her husband, she was playing out some fantasy in her head and she got caught and she panicked and she threw the guy under the bus.
SCHACHER: Well that too.
HUTT: Not OK and not cool.
PINSKY: Well, I think that`s same thing we`re saying, we`re just using a little different language.
ARUTT: That Craigslist guy though is in kind of a dangerous business, so don`t you think that`s kind of a dangerous hobby -
ARUTT: -- to go breaking into people`s houses just to satisfy their rape fantasies?
PINSKY: Well that`s a - I think a question people are wondering is how common is this? Is this something people - go head, Sam.
SCHACHER: Well is it - OK, from what I have researched prior from a totally different case -
SCHACHER: -- from what I saw, it`s a thing - it is quite common. And it`s not that deviant. So I know that some people may be reenacting this fantasy, near rape or rape fantasies because they`ve suffered some sort of trauma. But can people have that fantasy -
SCHACHER: -- and still be healthy and well?
PINSKY: Sure, of course -
PINSKY: -- I mean, however, what Cheryl`s saying is that sometimes women need to do this in order to feel as though they`re not responsible for their own sexuality. Somebody`s taking control and it`s an unhealthy thing. Although I am hearing that Tiffanie may be making one of the 911 calls. Sam is carefully defending rape fantasies. I think we have a forensic file underway. So at least - maybe two different forensic files we`ll be hearing about soon. But it`s an important topic. And let`s just - with Tiffanie and Cheryl - very quickly, I`ve got less than a minute left. The importance of understanding trauma and its effect on our relationships. Trauma is a really common thing today and it causes us to reenact these sort of -
PINSKY: -- problems in our relationships - in our intimate relationships particularly. Thirty seconds, Tiffanie, Cheryl.
HENRY: Certainly, certainly when you don`t treat it, when you don`t deal with those traumatic issues, they tend to come up and they come up at the most inopportune times when you least expect it, and when you can`t control it. And sex is one of those ways that it does come out oftentimes.
PINSKY: Cheryl, --
PINSKY: 15 seconds.
ARUTT: It - trauma is treatable. If you`re getting triggered and having problems in your behavior, get help. And this is not about consensual stuff with a partner. This situation we`re talking about here was something else -
PINSKY: Yes, and by trauma -
ARUTT: -- trauma`s treatable.
PINSKY: -- and by trauma it`s interpersonal trauma, sexual abuse, physical abuse and neglect. Thank you guys. "Forensic Files" begins right now.