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Bizarre: Newlywed Murder Trial; Judge Joe Brown Explains; Gwyneth Paltrow Offends Working Moms; Nick Cannon`s "Whiteface" Instagram
Aired March 27, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, cops say he murdered his bride after three days of marriage. Now, he`s on trial and cross-examining his ex-girlfriend who is accused of helping him plan the crime.
Plus, order in the court.
JUDGE JOE BROWN: You want to get into this then let`s get into it. This sorry operation needs to stop.
MAGISTRATE: Twenty-four hours Shelby County jail for detention. You may have a seat.
PINSKY: Judge Joe Brown is here to explain.
Then, hating on Gwyneth Paltrow.
And your twitter reaction to this.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Black people in secret want to be white.
PINSKY: Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host is Sirius XM Radio`s Jenny Hutt.
Coming up, we were discussing Jenny the fallout from our last show, Ms. Ali last night made some sensational comments about Nick Cannon and Nick Cannon in white face and everybody seemed to have an opinion about it.
Jenny, you may or may not be surprised, mostly angry at Ms. Ali, but not exclusively so.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Right, yes. Well, Dr. Drew, what she said, which you`ll share later, was quite inflammatory.
PINSKY: We`ll see. We`ll see what people saying about it. We`ll get into it.
But, first, a man on trial for murder, his wife found bludgeoned after only three days of marriage. Is this some new trend?
HUTT: So soon.
PINSKY: He`s accused of planning with the ex-girlfriend, so he -- they, could collect the life insurance policy. And now, in a bizarre twist, he has decided to act as his own lawyers. And I know our lawyers have something to say about that.
So, take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say Escoto plotted with a girlfriend to murder his wife, charges that he drugged his newlywed wife and choked her death to collect on her $1 million life insurance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But he`s acting as his own lawyer and having a rough go at it.
ESCOTO: So, even though we --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection, Judge --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was uncomfortable to watch as he questioned his ex- mother-in-law.
ESCOTO: Do you think that I could kill Wendy?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never thought you would be capable of something like that. You were her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Being able to cross-examine this mother in court, it makes my blood boil.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He sued the life insurance company, claiming that he should have gotten the $1 million faster. That`s when police in 2005 actually charged him. Then, they found this ex-girlfriend and they got her to flip on him as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He grabbed me, he threw me on the bed and he started choking me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She allowed her boyfriend to practice drowning her in the bathtub? She was the model?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If she knew that the boyfriend was killing the woman for money and it didn`t matter to her.
PINSKY: Joining us: Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, Segun Oduolowu, social commentator, and Leeann Tweeden, social commentator as well.
And let us take a key look at the players. We`ve got the husband accused of murdering his wife of three days. His ex-girlfriend who you saw in that tape who helped plotted is now testifying against him.
Segun, help me make sense of this. What`s going on here?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Dr. Drew, you know in the legal profession, they say that anyone who represents themself has a fool for a client. And this is just madness. Only in the state of Florida would this be allowed.
The fact that he murdered the really hot one and left -- let me stop there because that was a joke that only I`m going to find funny.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: It`s funny.
ODUOLOWU: I think it`s ridiculous that he`s allowed to, by our legal system, to cross-examine a grieving mother. That`s just stomach churning.
PINSKY: And to be clear, he had that girlfriend, as I understand it, during those early days of his marriage. That was his play toy.
ODUOLOWU: That was his side piece?
PINSKY: That was his side piece.
ODUOLOWU: His side piece looks like that? That`s never what your side piece, I don`t have side pieces --
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s terrible. Segun, stop.
PINSKY: But let`s stay away from that issue, but, Anahita, this guy being his own lawyer, as Segun says, buffoonery.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think it was Abe Lincoln, excuse me, that actually made that statement. And he is a fool. You never want to represent yourself, Dr. Drew, especially when you`re a defendant facing a murder one conviction. OK, he`s facing life in prison here.
I have to watch some of this trial and he was just stumbling. He was asking questions that made no sense. He was incoherent. I think he was essentially securing his own conviction here. On top of that he`s frustrating the prosecution. He`s pissing off the judge and he`s pissing off certainly those jurors. And that is going to backfire on him.
PINSKY: Leeann you`re shaking your head and nodding your head both.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: The guy is absolutely insane. I think we know that. The girlfriend, I read she said she did those things and went along and let him practice killing her and the method that he was going to use because she was so hurt that he went off with this other girl, got married and that she was still into him.
So, let`s think about that. When you`re in an unhealthy relationship, both people have to be crazy. So, obviously, she was, too, and so is he. Now she`s coming clean.
PINSKY: Segun, I got to interrupt you because I`ve got to take a break, believe it or not.
But, Leeann, you make an interesting point about the collusion of that girlfriend and the pathology of this gentleman who is defending himself in court. We`re going to bring our behavior bureau together to discuss exactly what this is.
And later, a Christian school says a little girl -- this is another -- speaking of crazy, another wild story. Little girl with short hair needs to act, quote, "feminine," unquote. And she`s been dismissed from that school. We`re going to get into that after this.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: So awful.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ESCOTO: Because there`s an objection I cannot ask you what she said.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection, Judge.
ESCOTO: So even though we --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection, Judge, asked and answered.
ESCOTO: Would that have been a subject that I was comfortable with?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection.
ESCOTO: Would I --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection.
ESCOTO: Did Wendy communicate to you --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Same objection.
Objection to relevance, Judge. Objection as to relevance.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny. We`re talking about the man accused of murdering his bride of three days to collect $1 million life insurance money.
Later in the show, I`m going to remind you, we`re going to be addressing the -- I don`t want to use, too strong a word, but let`s use it -- scandal that Ms. Ali caused yesterday.
PINSKY: She made strong comments. You all have been reacting in social media.
But, first, let`s bring in the behavior bureau. Wendy Walsh, psychotherapist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox", Samantha Schacher, social commentator, host of "Pop Trigger", Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal".
Danine, what do you make of this guy? You`re the criminal person on my panel. What the heck!
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Look, Dr. Drew, innocent people do not represent themselves in murder trials. Only guilty people do that. So, let me put that out there, first.
PINSKY: Let`s put that -- that`s a truism should write on -- put that -- write that on stone. OK, we got that established, good.
MANETTE: But I really think this is a case of "he who gets to the D.A. and cuts a deal first wins." I don`t buy anything she`s saying about not being involved in this more than she`s claiming to be because her whole thing is she felt bad because the mother lost her daughter and she wanted to come clean, but why did she wait three years to do that? I mean, you think she would have felt bad a little sooner.
She didn`t feel bad until the police started knocking on her door, which usually makes people feel bad.
PINSKY: OK. And the previous panel, Wendy called him -- they use the word "insane." We would not use that word --
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, POP TRIGGER: I would say dumbass.
PINSKY: That`s in the Sam DSM again, Sam diagnostic manual.
But, Wendy, Arrogant. He thinks he has special abilities. He`s a little aggressive and grandiose. That has a name, right?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, he`s definitely has a personality disorder whether he`s narcissistic, borderline, whether he`s -- I don`t know, I haven`t seen him perform --
PINSKY: But that zone, that narcissistic zone, right?
WALSH: Narcissistic zone for sure. You know, this whole idea of thinking, hoping that he`s going to cross-examine the girlfriend who has already cut a deal with the D.A. and she`s suddenly going to be totally on his side, you know, it`s all sad all the way around.
PINSKY: But it`s magical thinking, it`s thinking things are going to go his way because he has special abilities -- Jenny.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, I`m so tired of you and clinicians giving these horrible, evil disgusting people clinical term like he`s a narcissistic personality. He`s evil.
WALSH: It doesn`t mean they`re innocent just because they have a name. I mean, they`re fit enough to stand trial. We have to understand the difference between mentally unstable and unable to stand trial and having a mental disability.
You can still go to jail. It`s suggested that one-third of people in jail have a mental illness.
PINSKY: That`s higher than that.
But, Danine, you`re smiling at the evil comment.
MANETTE: Yes, because I agree with jenny in that respect. We are so quick to put labels on people. But there is something wrong with this guy. I mean, there`s obviously something wrong with him. Clearly, he`s got a problem.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, I have a real problem with his ex-girlfriend who clearly was an accomplice, who clearly plotted out the murder with him. I have a real problem that they were able to just let her off scot-free in exchange for her testimony. There has to be a better way.
PINSKY: Right. And she might be the guilty party here. Danine saying she might -- she`s alluding to the fact that this woman could be the problem.
And, Sam, is this becoming some kind of weird trend? Am I missing something here? We have the cliff bride pushing her husband -- that was a three-day marriage, too. What is it with you ladies and three days? Is there something magic about that?
SCHACHER: Brian was eight days.
PINSKY: Eight days, OK.
SCHACHER: There is breaking news with the cliff bride story, if I can share.
SCHACHER: So, with the cliff bride story, you guys all remember her, Jordan Graham, 22 years old. She pushed her husband off a cliff after eight days of marriage. Well, just three days ago, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: There`s that three again, Sam, see what I`m talking about?
SCHACHER: She wanted to take back her guilty plea. Well, today, the judge said no way. He sentenced her to 30 years in prison.
WALSH: Hey, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Wendy.
WALSH: I want to remind you that I host a show on Investigations Discovery Network called "Happily Never After", about brides and grooms that kill each other and we`ve filled three full seasons with content. So, this is definitely a trend that`s been around.
PINSKY: My concern is -- I imagine the men are at the losing end of this, right?
WALSH: No, more often the grooms that kill brides. Way more often grooms that kill brides.
HUTT: Yes, women die.
PINSKY: Wendy, you had a certain amount of glee when you reported this. And I figured that men were the ones at the losing end.
WALSH: I have great compassion for men. What do you think, I`m a man hater? I love men, Dr. Drew.
HUTT: We know.
PINSKY: We`ll leave it there.
Next up, I have Judge Joe Brown here. He had been cited for contempt of court in the same vicinity where he`ll be running for D.A. We`ll let him have a chance to explain himself. I`ll give my panel a chance to examine him themselves.
And later, a Christian school lowers the boom on an 8-year-old girl who doesn`t look like they think she should look. We`ll get into that after this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you believe, former TV judge, Joe Brown, was arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brown, fresh out of jail, after being held in contempt of court after a courtroom argument.
BROWN: You want to get into this, let`s get into it. This sorry operation needs to stop.
MAGISTRATE: Twenty-four hours, Shelby County jail for contempt. You may have a seat.
BROWN: Excuse me? You need to straighten yourself up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Got really ticked and started yelling at the judge.
BROWN: I`ll tell you what, I`ll be out of here very shortly on a petition of habeas corpus and I`ll bring up all these problems. And guess what? You might not be operating tomorrow.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m talking about your tone.
BROWN: Just listen, listen, my tone was appropriate.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny, Anahita, Danine, and Judge Brown himself. Judge Joe Brown who was actually sent to jail after those outbursts in the courtroom.
So, the judge -- we`ve seen what happened. Can you explain why you did what you did?
BROWN: I was outraged at the injustices that were being done to citizens. I hadn`t even gone over there for anything other than to see how the prosecutors were behaving there with the light of who I`m going to retain or fire when I get into office.
Now, a woman came out and asked me for help. And I said, OK, lady, I don`t do this. Haven`t done it for 20-some years, 24 years.
She said, judge, I thought you protected womanhood. I said you got me. I went and looked it up. I was rather outraged at what I saw in terms of the systemic thing.
I went in there and I saw a circus. I went in the back, read it, and I saw, interestingly enough, a remote relative of my opponent in this election back there having a chat with the referee in question. They were discussing how they might cause me some, let`s shall we say discomfiture.
PINSKY: So they were actually plotting against you in court --
BROWN: Yes, I heard it, in the corridor in the back.
PINSKY: OK. I`m going to give my panel a chance. I`ve got an attorney on the panel. I`m interested to hear what she has to say -- Anahita and Jenny, too, an attorney as well.
SEDAGHATFAR: Judge, I certainly know what it feels like to be in front of an incompetent judge or judge that`s disrespectful or makes an erroneous ruling, but I don`t think you handle these situations in this manner. Now, having looked back, would you have handled this differently now that you`ve heard the tape and relived the experience?
BROWN: Not one bit unless he issues an apology to myself, the client I had and everyone in that courtroom who was embarrassed by his disgraceful conduct as a judge. See, that isn`t even an accurate record of what happened.
There`s video to it. They erased it. They edited that. It`s out of context.
You don`t hear me threatening to report him to the court of the judiciary.
PINSKY: Did you do that?
BROWN: Well, I will. He`s already been publicly reprimanded for the same behavior.
BROWN: So this is not the first time.
PINSKY: Got it.
BROWN: He`s been found all out of line. He`s not a judge. He`s a lawyer who two days out of the week, he --
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, he`s a magistrate.
BROWN: Well, yes, but there`s an interesting difference. There`s some technical things down here that came from the fact that the long-term judge of this court didn`t even have a high school diploma, and he could not hear cases because the state Supreme Court wouldn`t let it.
SEDAGHATFAR: Is it your position, though, that this judge did not have authority.
BROWN: No, he didn`t have the authority to do what he did. He did not have the authority to give me any jail time for contempt. He could only fine me.
BROWN: The only thing is he couldn`t put me in jail. It had to be only the elected judge or a special judge. You know what they did to get me in there?
They violated the law for putting me in there for failure to pay child support, and then he falsely affirmed that he was in fact the judge of the court and he signed it that way, they put me in less than 30 minutes, five judges had ordered me free but they couldn`t fine me for 6 1/2 hours because he had entered erroneous documents.
Two days ago, yesterday, he tried to revise that again. They wanted to arrest me one more time, but it`s in another court. They don`t even have the same jurisdiction.
So, the bottom line is, you know, a good defense lawyer, trial lawyer has to be ready to occasionally go to jail or be found in contempt. At least let me be found in contempt by a competent judge.
PINSKY: Danine, I want to give you a chance. Go ahead, Danine.
MANETTE: Yes, I think the same thing as a doctor is the worst patient possible. I actually think that goes along these things.
But, Judge Brown, I`ve watched your show and I`ve seen you kind of run people around that courtroom pretty seriously. I`m wondering if someone came into your courtroom and addressed you the way you addressed this judge, would you have not done the same thing?
BROWN: You didn`t hear the rest of it. They cut out three-fourths of what actually happened. They edited it.
You see, what`s crazy. Have you, counselor, ever heard of a court releasing to social media something like this or else come in and come up with a so-called addendum, a correction of the record, and then send it out by fax to all of the local media? Not the prosecutor, not a lawyer, but the court itself?
PINSKY: Jenny, I want to give you the last word there.
HUTT: Is it your assertion that the judge is the one who was doing something improper by consorting with someone who was a relative of the other attorney? So that you believe --
BROWN: This isn`t even a judge.
SEDAGHATFAR: A magistrate.
HUTT: OK, the non-judge, the magistrate.
BROWN: What happens is this is, yes, now, this is the order of public reprimand. This is no form, et cetera, Harold Horne, that you have been found liable for a public reprimand and one is so issued for the following. You have been engaged in eroding public confidence in the integrity of the judicial process, further engaged in depriving those with interest in the proceedings the right to be heard, further, your most recent entry to correct the record order contains factual assertions not provided by the --
PINSKY: Judge, I`ve got to get to a break, but that is your complaint to the judiciary, is that right?
BROWN: No, that`s the public reprimand from the state against this particular referee for what he`s done.
PINSKY: Got it.
BROWN: He was doing the same thing.
PINSKY: I`ve got to take a break. I`m so sorry. Justice Brown, thank you for joining us.
A school questions a girl answer gender because of short hair.
Later, we will address Facebook and Twitter backlash to Ms. Ali`s inflammatory comments about Nick Cannon right here last night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sunny Kale (ph) is 8 years old. She`s got short hair and a huge heart and as far as her grandparents are concerned, is a completely normal little girl.
Doris and Carol Thompson are Sunny`s grandparent. They adopted and raised the little girl and took her out of Timberlake Christian School when they received this letter from the K through 8 principal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re probably unaware that Timberlake School is a religious, bible-believing institution.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The letter goes on to say that students are confused about whether Sunny is a boy or girl, and specifies that administrators enrollment for condoning sexual immorality, practicing a homosexual lifestyle, or alternative gender identity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you label a child 8 years old or discriminate against an 8-year-old child?
PINSKY: Back with Jenny, Anahita, Leeann. Joining us, Ginger Gonzaga, actress from ABC`s "Mixology", and Jim Jefferies "Legit", which I had the great privilege of being a part of.
The grandparents of 8-year-old Sunny have removed her from that private school. She now attends --
PINSKY: Well, but I`ll tell you, she`s not so happy with it, the girl misses her friends. Here`s what Sunny told a local reporter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNNY: I should just be able to be me and not let them worry about it.
REPORTER: Do kids ever ask you if you were a boy or a girl?
REPORTER: What did you say to them?
SUNNY: That I was a girl.
REPORTER: Did it hurt your feelings that they would ask?
PINSKY: See, I look at my panel, and I say all these lovely women beneath me and beside me, all of you undoubtedly had a period where you had some -- I don`t want to say confusion, but some exploration. Oh, Leeann, you.
SEDAGHATFAR: Short hair.
PINSKY: Perhaps we have a picture of Leeann, in fact. Let`s see if we can throw that up. There`s Leeann.
TWEEDEN: I had the short boy cut permed hair do and I`m also from Virginia. And what I have to say is -- when I was 8 years old my dad taught me how to shoot a shotgun. I didn`t play with Barbies. I played with boys out on the field, out in the green. I learned how to play tag football, I learned how to play baseball, I played sports. I was never a cheerleader.
I was considered a tomboy. That`s why my podcast --
PINSKY: So, Leann, OK, so you`re -- a pox on you. We can`t be with you. You violated some serious principles that are laid out in the Bible.
So, done with Leeann.
TWEEDEN: No, the problem is, she`s a child. Let her be a kid.
PINSKY: Listen, kids. I`m going to bring in the behavior bureau here in minute. You`re gonna see that kids normally, normally go through these sorts of periods. Ginger, you too, right?
GINGER GONZAGA, STAR, "MIXOLOGY": Oh, I mean, Ninja Turtles. I refused to do ballet. I asked to be in Boy Scouts. I wrote a letter to the baseball team asking why girls had to play softball instead of baseball. I wanted to be a boy. I wanted to play soccer. I had -- I never brushed my hair. I had short hair. I dressed like a boy. Loved it.
TWEEDEN: And you turned out OK.
PINKSY: And now -- yeah, right. And now, -- well -- and by the way, even if you continue to identify as a male, you would be OK.
But Anahita, how about you?
SEGAGHATFAR: I never went through this phase, Dr. Drew.
TWEEDEN: Me either.
SEDAGHATFAR: And really, kudos to these grandparents for supporting their granddaughter and allowing her to express herself. But I`m gonna tell you, I think the school was well within the rights to do what they did. Because --
SEDAHATFAR: Well, let me explain. This is a private, Christian school.
PINSKY: OK, OK, stop. Anahita, I`m going to read you more of the letter that was sent to Sunnie`s grandparents.
PINSKY: And you tell me why it`s OK.
PINSKY: "We believe that unless Sunnie --" Here`s the letter. Quote, "We believe that unless Sunnie, as well as her family, clearly understands" -- they`re dictating this, "that God has made her female and her dress and behavior need to follow suit with her God or deigned identity that Timberlake Christian School is not the best place for her future education."
SEDAHATFAR: Right. It`s a --
PINSKY: What do you mean right?
SEDAHATFAR: -- private school. Well, I`m telling -- I`m gonna explain why. You may not agree with that opinion, I may not agree with that, but that`s the mission of the school, OK?
So they have a policy that they expect girls to dress a certain way. They have every right to do that because other parents, Dr. Drew, are sending their children to this school so that they can be taught this particular set of morals and beliefs. Again, you might not believe in it. I may not believe in it, but they are --
PINSKY: I believe that this is normal developmental --
TWEEDEN: You`re talking about them going to school to be taught, why are they putting the onus on an 8-year-old girl when they should take this as a lesson and teach other kids about tolerance?
SEDATHATFAR: Well, look, if you`re going to a Jewish school --
PINSKY: Ginger, hang on. Ginger!
SEDATHATFAR: Let me respond.
SEDATHATFAR: Let me respond. I`m not placing a moral judgment here. I`m just saying legally, they can do this. If you`re sending your kid to a Jewish school, you don`t want them teaching your children, you know, Bible verses or Buddhism because you want your children to be raised with a certain moral --
GONZAGA: The language did not say that there is a dress code for how they dress. It said if she doesn`t identify with being female. She specifically says, "Yes, I am a female, and this is how I dress." And what a beautiful child for being so confident and knowing exactly who she is.
TWEEDEN: And you know what? Angelina Jolie`s youngest daughter, the one she had with Brad Pitt, dresses like a boy. She even says she wants to be a boy. She keeps her hair short. And she dresses like a boy. I don`t think anybody is saying Angelina Jolie`s daughter is gonna have --
PINSKY: OK, I`ll tell you what the school has a right to do. They have the right to have me read a statement that they have released.
TWEEDEN: It`s not right or wrong.
PINSKY: And I will read that. It says, quote, "We have a duty to create an environment that is supportive of these Christian values. We cannot have conflicting messages because it will confuse our students and frustrate the parents who have entrusted the education of their children to us," unquote. So sayeth -- so agreeth Anahita. So we`ll leave it that.
SEDATHATFAR: I agree.
PINSKY: I`m gotta bring in a behavior bureau because they have some significant -- there`s some choice words for the school. Because the fact is --
PINSKY: -- the school is trying to dictate development.
SEDATHATFAR: It`s a private school.
PINSKY: They`re trying to dictate -- listen, we`ll get into it. What if they dictated people that they had to have certain attitudes or had to believe certain things that were --
SEDATHATFAR: They have a right to do that, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: There are limits to that.
TWEEDEN: Where does it say in the Bible that girls had to have long hair?
SEDATHATFAR: Don`t send your children there.
PINSKY: And later Gwyneth Paltrow says that being a mom and a movie star is just too tough and, you know, being an office mom is really much, much, much easier. We`ll talk about that and more.
CARROLL THOMPSON (PH), GRANDDAUGHTER ASKED TO LEAVE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL FOR DRESS: Sunnie realizes she`s a female, but she wants to do boy things. She wants to play rough, tough. To claim that we are condoning sexual immorality in our home is nonsense. If my child grows up to be a homosexual or a transgender, I love that child that much more.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny and the behavior bureau. Wendy, Sam, and Danine. And 8-year-old girl with very short hair and affinity for toy swords and baseball is told she is no longer welcome at her private Christian school.
And I think the way -- the reasons (ph) have me so stymied -- and Wendy, help me out with this -- is that there`s so much, let`s call it what it is, ignorance involved with this.
They`re conflating a number of issues, gender identity with sexuality. I know according to the last panel, we clearly established that Leeann and Ginger are gay and Godless.
PINSKY: We clearly established that according to these guidelines. So Wendy, help us. Help people understand -- there`s are -- there`s a normal process of gender development and sexual identity and personal identity, and it`s all good.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D.: OK. Let me break it down into three simple concepts for you, Dr. Drew: Gender identity, gender role, sexual orientation. Three distinct concepts that are not necessarily connected one way to the other. So gender role is what you do, what toys you like to play with. Gender identity is how you feel you are. And sexual orientation, of course, is which gender you`re attracted to.
Now, we have to understand that gender lies on this long gray school. We`re not only male or female. We can be anything along the way.
PINSKY: Listen, I`m going to show you something. Sam, you`re holding your hand up because --
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST, POP TRIGGER: Yeah.
PINKSY: But before -- let`s put Sam up here on the screen here. And I`ll show you. Do I have the older --
SCHACHER: Are you showing that picture?
PINSKY: Do I have the picture of Sam as she was in her native state?
SCHACHER: Oh my God.
PINSKY: There`s Sam. Now, when I went -- which one is Sam?
SCHACHER: That`s me on the right. That`s me rocking the bowl cut in the blond hair.
PINSKY: That`s three kids with bowl cuts. Which one is you?
SCHACHER: The blond, the little one.
PINSKY: The little one is you. OK, so clearly you two join Leeann and Ginger in a Godless soup where your gender identity is confused and never going to be resolved. I mean, Wendy, help, help, help. This is so ignorant.
PINSKY: Sam, go ahead.
SCHACHER: Could I say something? Because this, to me, is so hypocritical coming from a Christian school when they`re being so discriminatory and judgmental.
And Dr. Drew, this is so destructive. Let`s say the child is gay or becomes Gay, it`s no coincidence that teenagers who are gay or lesbian are three to four times more likely to commit suicide than average kids. It`s because schools like this, people like this shun them and shame them to the point where they feel like they have no other avenue but to take their life. People are dying. This is not OK.
PINSKY: That`s right. And Jenny, that`s why when Anahita says they have a right to do this, that`s where I have concern.
PINSKY: You have a right to free speech, but you can`t yell fire in a crowded theater when it hurts other people.
HUTT: Listen, Dr. Drew, you`re right. It`s awful. It`s within their legal right. But they`re clearly ethically, morally out of bounds here. Because this is about a child`s well-being and a child who is expressing herself. Who cares what she identifies as? Does it matter? She`s a beautiful little girl.
PINSKY: What I love -- what I love -- I love having Danine just sitting there smiling like a Cheshire cat just waiting to have at us. So go ahead, Danine.
MANETTE: Well, you know, personally, I find this offensive because basically Peppermint Patty couldn`t have gone to this school. And that`s just sad.
But as Anahita said, they have a constitutional right to enforce their dress code. And they`re a parochial school, and they have a constitutional right and the freedom of religion to enforce their dress code. And if their dress code says that this girl has to wear a dress and have a certain appearance, then they have the right to do that, because it`s a parochial school whether it`s right or wrong --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re teaching intolerance.
PINSKY: I`ll tell you what --
MANETTE: I understand that. But they have a constitutional right to do it.
PINSKY: I have someone who`s gone through this very vividly. Her name is Cheryl Kilodavis. She`s the author of "My Princess Boy," a book inspired by her now 8-year-old son Dyson, who likes wearing dresses and the color pink. And I`ve met this entire family. They are delightful. Cheryl, you had a strong reaction to the letter written by the school. Tell me why.
CHERYL KILODAVIS, AUTHOR, "MY PRINCESS BOY": Well, I have to tell you -- thanks for having me, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: You bet.
KILODAVIS: I was -- one of the things that I do when I go around the country talking about accepting differences is I try to tell people, you know, put yourself in the other person`s shoes.
And when I try to put myself in this grandmother`s shoes, I was appalled. I mean, the audacity of this principal sending this letter. The letter didn`t say anything about, well, you know, we`ve had several conversations. We`ve met about this before. We`ve gone through -- you know, we`ve done all these kinds of things, and then to have in the note say this -- that her dress behavior are not following suit with her God ordained identity is just baffling to me.
PINSKY: Could you imagine, Cheryl, somebody -- you must have had nonsense like this sort of directed towards you or your son. Have you not?
KILODAVIS: No. I mean, I mean, I`ve had -- you know that we -- I certainly had people question my parenting choices and if I`m doing the right thing for my son, but as you know, I`ve never asked for agreement. I don`t need agreement and neither does his grandmother. What we need are acceptance.
PINSKY: Here`s my -- here`s the thing that bewilders me more than anything else -- put the panel back up there for me. Yeah. Because the -- isn`t acceptance and love and inclusion really the Christian value?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
PINSKY: Don`t people end up acting in non-Christian ways in order to get conformity to get things down to the letter of what they think things ought to be? There might be a better way. Even if they want compliance with something, still in a Christian fashion, I think, might be better.
WALSH: You know --
PINSKY: Who is talking?
WALSH: Dr. Drew, it`s Wendy here.
WALSH: I want to remind all the loving, good Christians out there that this particular school does not represent certainly what Jesus (inaudible). And you know, he was all about accepting those that were outcasts, that were different.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
WALSH: He was all about, "Do not cast the first stone." You know, he was all about healing and helping and accepting.
PINSKY: Let`s leave it there.
Next, we`re gonna go from healing and accepting and being healthy to hating, hating on Gwyneth Paltrow. There`s a lot of that going on these days. She implied that being a movie star mom is, well, it`s tough, you know. It`s tough. Tougher than --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s very misunderstood.
PINSKY: She wishes she could be like the rest of us. The # officemoms has just inundated Twitter. And remember, you can find us any time on Instagram at DrDrewHLN. We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny and Danine and my heathens Samantha and Ginger. And a reminder that we`re going to get to the Miss Ali stuff. You`ve got to see this just in the next segment so please hang around for that. Miss Ali caused a little bit of a firestorm today and so did Gwyneth Paltrow.
I wonder if you saw the #officemoms on Twitter. Yes, she infuriated working moms in her latest interview. She implied that being a regular working mom, she implied it would be so much of a relief if you could just have a regular job. Here`s what she said and we have a reenactment by one of our staffers. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GWYNETH PALTROW, ACTRESS: I think it`s different when you have an office job because it`s routine and you know you can do all the stuff in the morning and then you come home in the evening. I think to have a regular job and to be a mom is not -- of course, there are challenges, but it`s not like being on set.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Right, Jenny?
HUTT: Yes, poor, poor, poor Gwyneth. Look, I think, Dr. Drew, we have to treat her with compassion. She`s getting divorced and it`s devastating regardless of who you are. That said, Dr. Drew, I think part of the problem she has this bit of affectation where she has this -- I could hear her saying that with that sort of mock English accent thing she does. So she adds salt to the fire -- or it just --
PINKSY: Well, Ginger, you`re an actress. And you can imagine how stressful and terrible it would be to go to Paris to do a role in "Iron Man".
GONZAGA: Yes, be paid to go on these free vacations, it`s very daunting. When you`re an actor, your life and your hours are crazy, but the glamour kind of balances that out, how well you`re taken care of. And, yes, you might not have a normal 9 to 5 schedule, but that doesn`t mean that their jobs aren`t important.
The problem with Gwyneth is that every time she is affirming who she is, she`s offending working class people. She for some reason can`t just describe her life without doing that. She`ll say things like, oh, I can`t live my life like I make $25,000.
PINSKY: I read that, too. That was the thing that jumped out at me in some of the things she`d been saying. That is a kind of a wild thing to say. Sam, I`m sure you saw that on social media.
SCHACHER: Oh, yes, there`s a huge reaction and huge backlash. And you know what? I get it. Here`s the thing. She lives a very privileged lifestyle. She gets to do what she loves every single day. She makes a lot of money. And she said she makes one movie a year and then the rest of the year she gets to spend with her kids. That`s awesome. More power to you. But the reality is the majority of working moms don`t get that luxury, they have to work two to three jobs just to put the food on the table. And just don`t compare yourself to them because it just doesn`t look --
GONZAGA: And by the way, one movie a year is about three months of work, by the way.
PINSKY: I understand. I get it. The kids could join her on the set because she doesn`t make $25,000 a year. Danine?
MANETTE: I`m going to come to her defense. Look, I work a regular job and I do television. I get more stressed out having to go away for days at a time doing television because my whole home becomes disrupted. A lot of times I have to bring my daughter to the set with me just so we can have dinner together and do homework together. And to take me away from home for weeks and days on end is very stressful. I would much prefer doing my regular nine to five job.
SCHACHER: But you`re juggling two jobs.
GONZAGA: But Danine --
MANETTE: But it`s hard to be away from home for all those --
PINSKY: But let me ask this, you know what? But the point well taken, Danine, but do you think she maybe has done this to yourself by just being so special? You know, she`s --
MANETTE: Well, she should not have compared herself to everyday people.
GONZAGA: But that`s her habit. She has a habit of that. I`ve seen her on late night shows and they`ll say, "Oh, so why did you do Iron Man 3?", and she`ll say things like, "Oh, well, you know, because I was broke." That`s so offensive to regular working class people because she`s not broke.
PINSKY: Jenny, what do you say?
HUTT: It`s just -- I think it`s her delivery, Dr. Drew. What Danine just said was accurate; it could be stressful to live her life. However, it`s that comparison that you pointed out, Dr. Drew, that she should have just said, "I`m stressed out with my life, I hate being away from my kids and I want to be around them." If she just said that, no one would be angry.
PINKSY: Yes, yes.
HUTT: But "it`s harder for me than the working mom" is offensive.
PINSKY: But there`s a reason that she is phrasing and formulating her version of reality the way it is being presented to us. It`s a special version, don`t you know, and the fact is we`re all just humans, we`re all struggling, we all have the same issues. And that probably would have struck all our ears much, much better.
GONZAGA: Perhaps she`s like Hillary Clinton when Hillary said, I could stay at home and bake cookies all the time and all of a sudden she`s offending every stay-at-home mom.
PINSKY: That`s pulling back something from the `90s. Way to go. Way to study your history. But here`s the deal. I`m going to go from one offensive statement to the next.
PINSKY: This one is from our own Miss Ali where she says that black people secretly want to be white. That`s what she said last night and there`s still a lot of craziness going on on Twitter because of her comments. We will get into this after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI: Black people in secret want to be white. Now he`s married to Mariah Carey. She`s a very beautiful light-skinned, fair-skinned woman. He`s got two little light children and her mother is white. And that`s not enough. He wants more, the same way Kanye does. It`s just never enough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny, Danine, Anahita and Segun. And, of course, no guest generates more commentary on Twitter or Facebook or social media than our dear Miss Ali. She may have set a record for reactions last night when she ripped into Nick Cannon for his whiteface photo on Instagram, there it is, where he`s making fun of suburban white males who want to be black.
Now, Segun, I`ll start with you. Is there anything in what she`s saying? Do you thing there are African-Americans who secretly want to be Caucasian?
ODUOLOWU: I don`t know. I mean, I don`t want to. You can ask any other person on the panel. I`m kind of happy in my own skin. As it pertains to Nick Cannon, let`s just put it on the table -- if this was Eminem or Justin Timberlake dressing up in blackface and doing something similar, I mean Twitter and every place would explode. It would be a horrible thing, so, yes, there is a double standard. Is it brilliant marketing? Yes. But it`s wrong.
PINSKY: But hang on, the double standard is based on a historical precedent. Anahita, do you agree, there really kind of should be a double standard?
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree. Well, I don`t know that there should be a double standard. I can get what Segun was saying, that if it was someone in blackface, I can see why people would be offended. But let`s call this what it is. Let`s cut through the crap. This is genius marketing.
SEDAGHATFAR: Nick Cannon did this for the sole purpose of this, of having people talk about it, creating controversy. Dr. drew, I didn`t even know Nick Cannon was a singer. I always thought he was just like a TV host. Now after this whole controversy, now I know he`s a singer. And guess what? It worked. He`s laughing his way to the bank.
PINSKY: Perhaps. Danine?
MANETTE: I watched Miss Ali last night. And honestly I don`t completely disagree with what she had to say.
MANETTE: But it`s not so much that I think black people want to be white. I feel like a lot of blacks are looking for a particular thing of culture, an identity that was taken from us when we were brought here. The Chinese people have China, the Europeans have Europe; we don`t quite have Africa because it`s so removed from us.
PINSKY: Segun, that`s what Miss Ali said. She refereed to that; she specifically referred to that.
ODUOLOWU: Here`s the problem with that.
ODUOLOWU: That`s not right.
PINSKY: What`s the problem?
ODUOLOWU: The problem with that is to say that is to imply that black Americans don`t have a culture of their own.
MANETTE: No, that`s not what I said. That is not what I said. I`m looking for a --
ODUOLOWU: You said they were searching.
MANETTE: A defining face (ph), and unfortunately the European culture is what has been in front of us and we were stripped down --
ODUOLOWU: Not in front of me.
MANETTE: -- to that culture. Well, I`m sorry, but it`s in the media, Segun, and it`s all over the place.
ODUOLOWU: Wait a second. But you`re making it sound like a crutch.
MANETTE: We don`t know the language in Africa.
ODUOLOWU: You`re making it sound like crutch.
MANETTE: It`s not a crutch. It`s a reality.
ODUOLOWU: Yes, you are. Because when you say --
MANETTE: A lot of people are searching.
ODUOLOWU: Well, here`s the first thing. The first thing is that`s just sheer ignorance --
ODUOLOWU: Because Africa`s a continent.
PINSKY: I got to protect my guests here a little bit.
ODUOLOWU: But it`s not a country, it`s a continent, which means that there are multiple countries, multiple languages.
MANETTE: I understand that, Segun.
ODUOLOWU: You can do like Alex Haley and go and research your roots. You can`t just make a statement that say black people want to identify with something.
MANETTE: I did not say that black people want to be white. I`m just saying that we have spent a lot of time searching for something to make our own. We came here with nothing.
ODUOLOWU: Who`s the we?
PINSKY: Hang on, Segun, Danine, first of all --
MANETTE: Everything was taken from us, Segun. We`ve tried to rebuild ourselves.
PINSKY: Danine --
MANETTE: Not you because you didn`t come from the same place. You came from another place.
PINSKY: Danine is stating a fact, and everyone who was hating on Miss Ali yesterday, we will now direct your attention to Segun and Danine and we`ll report on that next week.
SEDAGHATFAR: Not me.
PINSKY: Anahita, you`re still getting it from the Joe Brown thing. But Jenny, you were trying to say something.
HUTT: Just what I want to say is, Danine, I understand your point of view, Segun, I understand yours. I think the issue I had and many have with Miss Ali is the fact that she was saying that black people, a majority of black people don`t want to be black. And that is inherently offensive because I think people are happy with who they are.
PINSKY: Well, no, I don`t think she said that.
ODUOLOWU: More than offensive, it`s utter foolishness.
SEDAGHATFAR: You think nick cannon wants to be white?
PINSKY: No, I don`t.
PINSKY: I think he wants to make money.
SEDAGHATFAR: That was a rhetorical question. Because my thing is Nick Cannon could care less -- I`m not going to speak for him, but I don`t think he`s doing this to make a statement about race relations. He wants to sell albums, you guys. That`s why he`s doing it.
ODUOLOWU: Dr. Drew, here`s the ugly, ugly truth -- it`s brilliant marketing, but it is offensive. And if it was reversed, I know black people everywhere would lose our collective minds if a white person did this.
HUTT: You should. That`s different.
MANETTE: Of course, Segun, because historically, because historically we have been --
ODUOLOWU: And Miss Ali`s comments as a blanket statement --
PINSKY: Guys, great job. We`re going to have to leave it right there peacefully in peace and love, everybody. Peace and love. We`re going to leave with a Christian attitude, unlike that school. "FORENSIC FILES" start right now.