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Deadly Shooting at Fort Hood

Aired April 2, 2014 - 23:00   ET


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: When he was engaged by the female officer, he pulled it from under his jacket and shot himself. That is according to the military commander.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. It is the top of the hour, 11:00 p.m. Eastern here in the United States. I want to welcome our viewers, of course, in the United States and around the world.

We are following the breaking news out of Fort Hood, Texas, where several people have been killed and also injured. We were told that there are three victims plus the shooter are dead. And then there are at least 16 injuries. People who are being treated at the hospital now.

We're told that a member of the military opened fire 4:00 p.m. local time, using his own .45 caliber semiautomatic gun. On the military installation. Opened fire, shooting people, getting back -- getting into a car, going into another location, and then shooting again. Eventually being engaged by another member of the military, but then this man took his own life, according to a press conference that just happened a short time ago live here on CNN.

Also according to that press conference, this man served in Iraq in 2011, supposedly four months. When he came back, he reported having trouble and he was being treated for that, being treated for behavioral health and mental health issues but not PTSD, not post traumatic stress disorder.

I want to go straight to Spider Marks, who is a general. And you can talk about what the commanding officer talked about. You walked us through what would happen at this press conference and that's exactly what happened. What do you make of what happened on this military installation, at Fort Hood, and also talking about the mental health issues that this man was being treated for.

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, the key point that General Milley pointed out is that he was being diagnosed or he was being treated for behavioral health issues. And when you walk down the path, he goes through a certain diagram and you end up with PTSD as one of those potential options. So he hadn't -- the diagnosis had not reached that point.

And that was not necessarily an inevitable outcome that this soldier suffered from PTSD. But it could have a result of his experiences and where he was in his current status in terms of his medical status.

LEMON: So let's go through this. OK. I'm going to bring in not only General Marks but Evan Perez, who's our justice correspondent. Also Bill Gavin who is a former FBI, member of the New York office, and also Xavier Amador, who treated Nidal Hasan who also killed people at Fort Hood back in 2009.

Let's go through it here. The general came out and said he wanted to give his condolences to the soldiers. He said this happened at 4:00 p.m., someone firing shots near the medical area and then within 15 minutes the military responded and engaged the shooter. The shooter died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

He doesn't believe at this point that it's related to terrorism but he is not ruling it out. He's saying the ATF, federal agents, is involved, the FBI. And at the local level the Texas Rangers, the Texas State Police and also local law enforcement.

Three victims, he said, were killed in the shooting, plus the shooter. Sixteen being treated at local hospitals and they are focusing now on the families of the killed and injured. The FBI and other law enforcement, they're being asked to be called if you have any other information.

The people who live on this base and work on this base have been dealing with Iraq and Afghanistan for the last 13 years, General. And they need to feel safe at home as the president said. They're not feeling safe at home I would imagine now, and now all over the country, if not the world, they will be examining security measures on military bases because of this.

MARKS: They will, absolutely. There will be a very, very in-depth review of what took place. And it will promulgate across the force, not just the Army but all the services and all federal agencies certainly as well. And these new -- what was identified as the potential concerns may not be new. We may, in fact, be reinforcing what we're already doing. In this particular case, it might have been aberrant, it might have been a very simple event, where he had a weapon shoved it under the seat of his car, drove on post --


LEMON: That's what I was going to ask you.

MARKS: Nobody was the wiser --

LEMON: The general said you should not be allowed, you should not be allowed to carry concealed weapons on a base. How do you get a concealed weapon on a base?

MARKS: Just as I described. You bring it on the post. You're authorized to have a personally owned weapon if it's registered on post. So you've got to through the procedure to make sure --

(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Stand by, General. I need to get in because we need to go to Scott & White Memorial Hospital for a news conference going on now. Let's listen.

DR. GLEN COUCHMAN, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, BAYLOR SCOTT AND WHITE MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: Good evening. Are we ready to start? Good evening. I'm Glenn Couchman, I'm the chief medical officer at Scott & White Memorial Hospital --

LEMON: We're seeing a press conference now at the hospital where a number of the injured were taken and the doctors there are giving -- are giving us an update. We've just heard from the commanding officer at Fort Hood just a short time ago, telling us that at least 16 victims were being treated at local hospitals. Three victims killed, plus the shooter.

And the doctors there are giving us an update. And if we can -- we're having a bit of trouble -- technical issues.

COUCHMAN: First, I'd like to extend my condolences to the victims and their families tonight. We know there's been a lot of people suffering with physical injuries and the emotional trauma of what has been going on.

So far we have received -- we have accepted nine patients who have been sent over from the Fort. We have eight of them are currently in our facility right now receiving care, and there's still one more who should be arriving shortly. So this situation appears to be at this point pretty well contained and that's the extent of the folks that we are anticipating and getting in our facilities for further care.

All these patients are in our ICU or will be there very shortly. Three are in critical condition and the remaining are all seriously injured. We have seven male patients and one female patient with us.

We are adequately covered in that regard and we're providing attention to the families, trying to give them as much support as they need to help them through this. And we've had a lot of our volunteer staff come in to help and help us through this. And at this point, the patients are doing as well as can be expected for the severity of the injuries that they have sustained. So with that, I'll -- we will take questions and see if we can give you some more information.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Could you talk specifically about some of the injuries you've seen?

COUCHMAN: Yes, let me ask my colleagues to address some of those for us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So I'll be happy to address that. We have seen a variety of injuries, ranging from mild and superficial to life threatening. These have been involving extremities to neck, chest and abdomen. I won't go into too many specifics about individual patients but we've seen several different types of injuries this evening.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are they in need of surgery at this point? (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There have been two that have undergone surgery here at Scott & White and both -- one of them is out of the O.R. and is in the ICU in critical condition. The other is just finishing in the O.R.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not aware of all that. Some of the patients' names we're not -- we don't have yet but we are working with our chaplain service and the army to make sure we have identities for everybody. Obviously some of these young men and women are serving a good distance from home so we don't have immediate family a lot of the time. But we are working to get that. We have the majority of them, we just don't have all of them yet.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Was it true that they were all soldiers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the best of my knowledge, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are they alert and talking?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Several of them are, yes. Three of them are currently on the ventilator and so unable to speak right now.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Those that have been talking, have they said anything that stands out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I think that for the most part it reminds me a little bit of the way they -- the way the soldiers have been in the part when we've taken care of them on the routine basis, as well as when we took care of them in 2009. They're resilient and they're always a very positive group of people to be around. And it's always an honor to take care of them.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Were you one of the doctors here in 2009?


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Reflect on today having been here then.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We thought about that a lot over the course of this evening. And, you know, I was very proud of the way this hospital handled that in 2009. You know, I think it shows really the communality we have here and the culture we have at Scott & white. I will say that we have continued over the course of the last two years to engage our partners at Darnell and across the region to make sure that we are always continuously improving our response to emergency and to disasters such as this. And I feel like those efforts this evening have paid off with huge dividends.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I'll -- you want to address that one again? I think that there's a tremendous amount of human resources that go into that. And we have a very well coordinated command center that we utilize whenever we have incidents like this. And that was activated again tonight. There are a certain core group of people that come in to help man that every single time that's activated.

Then we call in certain core people. And then of course, we also have just the good people that work here who are interested in helping, volunteering their time, coming in from home, giving me phone calls and asking if I need anything. I know that Glenn and Harry have gotten the same requests, as well. So the community, as well as the staff here at Scott & White have been extremely generous and they're showing it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is there anything you need from the community?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I think at this point, from a hospital resource perspective, we're doing fine. We don't have any need for any ongoing blood for this specific event. I would always encourage the community to donate, because you never know when these situations is going to occur. And we are always looking for healthy donors.

In terms of other community support, I think that we'll see over the coming days what we need in terms of families and in terms of the support for the soldiers who have been affected by this.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You talked about the two in surgery. The other one is (INAUDIBLE) care, do they anticipate eventually going into surgery?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are a couple that are still under evaluation. At this time, I can't comment on those. The remainder of them appear that they will not need surgery.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You said three were in critical. Does that mean that six aren't serious or five aren't serious?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me make sure I don't mess up my math here. Three are definitely critical and then we have the remaining -- the five here I would classify as serious, we'll probably consider downgrading them in the overnight period or upgrade them I guess would be the correct term to a better condition.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The one on the way, do we know anything about that patient?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've been told that it may be a facial injury but I don't have any more information on that.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, to be honest, we really didn't have to. This happened kind of at the end of our normal business day, and so we actually had a fair number of staff in place. We were fortunate on the timing with regards to that. We definitely had a large number of doctors who contacted us to make sure that we had our staffing needs that were -- that this challenge presented. We're obviously a training facility and we had multiple trainees that were available to help, as well. And we had -- we did have a few key individuals coming from home specifically on the command center and some of those folks who came in from outside to make sure they were here.

COUCHMAN: Yes, people were calling the command center immediately. So we had ample staff. We had a large number of folks that chose to stay through the evening hours. Many of them just to kind of be extra hands on deck, if needed. But we were amply staffed from the moment the first patient arrived.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In addition to the doctors, it was the nurses and the O.R. staff, the anesthesiologist. It was a very impressive group that rose to the occasion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say the majority suffered from what appears to be single gunshot wounds.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What is it like to be in your shoes tonight knowing you're trying to save their lives (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, that's probably a little bit hard to put into a quick sentence. But you know I think we all feel indebted to the men and women who serve our country and who put themselves in harm's way. And it is heartbreaking to be so close to such a tragic event as this. And I think all of us here at Scott & white, I know I can speak to everyone, feel invested in the community with the soldiers we have across the way at Fort Hood.

We feel a true community sense with them. And I think that any time they hurt, we hurt, and we feel -- we feel indebted to them at baseline and we obviously want to help whenever they're struggling. It's important.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Conversely, what does it say to you that this community has now dealt with two soldier-on-soldier attacks?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you know, I'm probably not the qualified person to answer that. I think there are some folks over at Fort Hood who may have some better answers and --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I live here. Certainly. You know, but I think that the -- you know, the internal workings at Fort Hood, how that goes on, I would leave to those folks to answer those discussions. I would say that this community by and large is very safe, you know, and I don't think it's a reflection on the general community.

I know Glen has any further thoughts on that.

COUCHMAN: I really don't. I think it's a tragic event that can happen any time when you have a large number of people together and they're in a stressful environment. And it's unfortunate that occurred but I don't think it's a condemnation of Fort Hood or our military.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So to recap, can you both relay the numbers just one more time so we're all clear. Two are going to surgery?




UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And you said five were in serious --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five are in serious and we have one that's being transported right now.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So that's a total of 10?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nine have been accepted, eight are currently here.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And three are on a ventilator?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. They're on a mechanical ventilator.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How many men and women?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One woman, the rest are all men.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And they're all soldiers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as I'm aware, yes.

LEMON: OK. Press conference being held at Scott & White Memorial Hospital on this Fort Hood shooting. Nine patients in the ICU, three in critical condition. Three in critical condition. We're told that nine were accepted, eight are still there, three are on a ventilator. It's seven men, one woman, five are now in serious condition.

We're also being told that there were a variety of injuries including neck, chest and a facial injury. Two people have undergone surgery, one now is in ICU and one is still in the O.R. expected to go out of the O.R. and be put into ICU.

And a few are there -- are expected to be treated and some will not need surgery. Some will not need surgery. That's the situation happening in the hospital.

We're also following some developing news that's happening with Flight 370. Another news conference, this one in Perth, Australia, from the Malaysian and the Australian prime ministers with a statement on the hunt for Flight 370.

There is new information. We're going to bring you that in just a moment. But right now I want to get back to CNN's justice correspondent Evan Perez, former FBI assistant director Bill Gavin, military analyst Spider Marks, James "Spider" Marks, I should say, and on the phone with me now is Xavier Amador.

Dr. Xavier Amador, you treated or at least you were able to speak to Nidal Hassan after 2009 and you heard what the commanding officer there, General Mark Milley said about him. Said that he was in the process of transitioning, that he was being treated for behavioral -- health and mental health issues, that he had not officially been diagnosed with PTSD.

He also fired the gun at other officers -- at other members of the military, killing three of them, and also killed himself. What do you make of what you hear?

DR. XAVIER AMADOR, TREATED PREVIOUS FORT HOOD SHOOTER NIDAL HASAN: You know, first, I was very surprised by the level of detail Commander Milley can give us. And you know the question of whether it's PTSD or not is basically the difference between 12 or a dozen. He did confirm that he was being treated for depression. He was being treated for anxiety.

LEMON: A self-reported traumatic brain injury coming back from Iraq in 2011?

AMADOR: Exactly. And -- but I mentioned depression and anxiety in particular because they're core symptoms of PTSD. So, you know, it may be part of the picture. It may be related to his serving in combat and theater or not. But the point is, there's mental health issues here. But I would like to say something right at the outset.

You know, you've been showing that the shooter was wearing combat fatigues, as if that explains something about his intentions. You know, Commander Milley at the press conference was also wearing his BDUs. I've been on the base, your other guests have been on the base. A lot of people are in combat fatigues.

Same thing with mental illness. Just because I was right in my prediction that mental illness might somehow be associated with this shooting doesn't mean it was the cause of it. What I will say is this, however, that the army has done a tremendous -- really a much, much better job at identifying this as a critical, important health issue and a safety issue. But he was being assessed.

He had just cycled into Fort Hood. He'd been there less than two months, according to Commander Milley, and he was already being treated. He was on some psychotropic, some psychiatric medication, we've been told. And unfortunately, I think he may be fitting more of what I suspected one of the possibilities would be, which is that of untreated or poorly treated mental illness does often result in self- harm, suicide and violence. So not mental illness itself, but when it's not fully treated.


AMADOR: And by Commander Milley's account, he was in the process of being evaluated and the process of being treated and evaluated further. So I --


LEMON: And, Doctor, there's still a lot of -- a lot more information to come out of that and we'll continue to discuss that with you and with all of our experts here, and especially our military experts and our justice correspondent.

But I need to tell our viewers this. There's more breaking news to report to you tonight. A 7.8 magnitude earthquake struck off the coast of Chile just a little while ago. That's just one day after an 8.2 magnitude quake rocked the region and caused tsunami waves.

We're going to bring you more on that just as soon as we get it.

Also, we're going to continue to follow this story, as well as the information coming out of Perth, Australia. The Australian prime minister, the Malaysian prime ministers, both about to hold a live press conference. We'll bring that to you live. Much more on our three breaking news stories when we come back.


LEMON: Lots of breaking news happening at this hour. Tonight, a 7.8 magnitude earthquake struck off the coast of Chile just a little while ago. That's just one day after an 8.2 quake rocked the region, caused tsunami waves, tsunami watches and tsunami warnings.

We're waiting for a press conference as well in Australia -- in Perth, Australia with the Malaysian prime minister as well as the Australian prime minister. We have been reporting here on CNN, the Malaysian prime minister would visit Perth to get information and assessment on the investigation. And the search of that missing Flight 370, Malaysia Flight 370, so Tony Abbott will come out and also Mr. Razak will come out from Malaysia and give a press conference in just a short time.

But also, we're following breaking news on three people who were killed today and others who were injured at Fort Hood, Texas. The gunman, a soldier turning the gun on himself, that makes four people dead. Sixteen injured, taken to local hospitals.

We just got an update from the hospital just a short time ago. And also a short time ago, an update from the commanding officer, the commanding general at Fort Hood.

I want to bring in now my panel of experts. Evan Perez, who's our justice correspondent. General Spider Marks and also Bill Gavin, former FBI in New York, and also Xavier Amador, who had a chance to assess Nidal Hasan who also opened fire killing 13 people back in 2009 at that same military complex.

So, Xavier, Dr. Xavier Amador, I cut you off because I needed to get to the breaking news here, but you were talking about the challenges that our men and women in uniform face and I think you were sort of alluding to the -- to the stigma that has -- that sometimes involved with this. But you said just because he was in a military uniform, that that may not be -- we should not read anything into that.

AMADOR: Absolutely. And again, the kind of the focus on PTSD right away by the reporting for what the press conference, as well.

Look, this man, whoever he was, has a life story. Obviously he has some mental health issues. He was in treatment for mental illness of one kind of another. Depression and anxiety are what the base commander told us. You know, we have to wait and see. He is a human being first. He's serving our country in the military a close second.

LEMON: Yes. I want to get to Bill Gavin.

Bill Gavin, the FBI and ATF are involved in the federal level, Texas Rangers are involved, the Texas State Police, local law enforcement as well as law enforcement in the immediate area and on the base.

How -- I would imagine it's a huge coordinated effort, but how might the FBI -- what do they do at this particular juncture?

BILL GAVIN, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: At this particular time, the spirit of cooperation is unique. There are no personal, this is my case, this is your case. This is one case to be handled by all law enforcement together. They're going to look, as was said earlier, they're going to be in the apartment, the house of the individual who was the shooter, to try to figure out what might have happened there.

They're also going to be doing -- ATF will be doing tracing the firearm. That also with the general telling us it was a .45 caliber semiauto Smith and Wesson, that will tell us all why there was so much murder and so much carnage. That's a powerful weapon and can do a lot of damage in the short amount of time.

LEMON: General Marks, he was assigned to the WTU, what is that?

MARKS: He was not assigned to the WTU. He was assigned to the 13th Sustainment Command which is a logistics command, commanded by a general officer working director for General Milley, that has all the responsibility for all the logistic activities on the post and in a deployed environment.

He conducted this heinous act in the vicinity and in the motor pool area, as we understand, of the medical brigade, which is contiguous to the Darnell Hospital. It's in the same vicinity. And the transportation battalion. So he shot some folks, jumped in a vehicle, drove across the parking lot, and shot some more folks, and then killed himself.

LEMON: Evan Perez, our justice correspondent, let's talk about that. They're saying that members of his family have not been properly notified, that he was assigned obviously to the area. His family was based in the area. Still no motive. What do you know about this shooter?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, you know, that's one of the things that's now starting to work on. You've got military CID -- Army CID at the scene there. You have state officials, you have the FBI and the ATF all on the scene there, at the apartment that is believed where he lived there in Killeen, Texas.

And now the work begins to try to determine, you know, how much -- how much premeditation he had, what was on his mind, they're going to be talking to his wife, the kids, I'm not sure how old they are, that the general mentioned in the press conference. So they're going to be talking to all those folks to see obviously with the fact that he's dead, they're not going to be able to know what exactly was on his mind when he got on base today.

But they're going to be able to ask those folks to see if they can explain any of this. We know again from what the general said that, you know, he had some mental health issues. We know that he bought a gun just recently in the local area. But he's only been on base since February. So we don't know how long he's been planning. We don't know what his motivations are, and those are the key questions that the federal investigators and the local officials are going to be working on in the next few days.

These things are obviously, you know, they're impossible to explain. They're not explainable, especially to the people who've been wounded, people who've been killed. But, you know, they can try to put together a picture of what was going through his mind before he went on base today.

LEMON: Hey, Bill Gavin, I want to ask you this because, you know, the general said, Lieutenant General Mark Milley said, you know, at this point, there's no indication that it is terrorism, but they're not ruling anything out or anything in.

Listen, Nidal Hasan was a member of the military against a member of the military and it was deemed to be terrorism. Why not this one?

GAVIN: Well, that's because Nidal Hasan told them it was terrorism, told them what -- the reason for doing this was both religious reasons and the fact that he didn't want to go be deployed. In this particular one, as the general said, and rightly so, he's not ruling it out, but he's not saying that it is terrorism either. This needs to unfold as they peel the onion and get down to what really happened in this particular case.

LEMON: All right. Everyone, stand by. When we come right back, a statement from the prime ministers of Australia and Malaysia on Flight 370. What new information might we glean from that?

Right after the break.


LEMON: I'm Don Lemon.

We're going to stay with our breaking news in the deadly shooting at Fort Hood, in Texas.

But right now, I want to go to CNN's correspondents for the very latest developments on Flight 370. We're awaiting a news conference at any moment from the Malaysian prime minister and the Australian prime minister.

First to CNN's Matthew Chance, who is in Perth, and then we will get to Sara Sidner, who is in Kuala Lumpur.

Matthew, the search area has shifted yet again. Tell us about that.


There's been some refinement in the exact area that they have been searching. They have moved into about 1,000 miles off the coast of Perth. That's the general area it's been for the past week or so. They have moved it slightly to the north. It's still a vast area, some 85,000 square miles that's being looked at, at the moment.

There are something on the order of eight consecutive and nine ships from various countries, including the U.S., that are engaged in that search. And shortly a nuclear submarine, the HMS Tireless from Britain, will be joining that search as well. It's equipped with very sophisticated search and detection equipment.

There's a time frame in all of this, of course, because the pingers on the black box flight recorders on board Malaysian 370 are certified to last for 30 days. That runs out on about May 7 -- April 7, rather. And so there's just a few days left for them to get to that, although specialists that we have spoken to say the pingers could last much longer.

But, nevertheless, there's a sort of deadline on this, getting -- getting to the bottom of this and trying to some debris. The important thing at the moment is that they haven't found any sign in any of the areas they have been looking at of debris from this disappeared flight. And so it is still very much a mystery, Don.

LEMON: Can you talk to us about this press conference? What can we expect? Any new information out of it?

CHANCE: Well, there's already been a couple of statements made by the two prime ministers, Najib Razak of Malaysia and Tony Abbott, the Australian Prime Minister, but nothing really that sheds light on the state of the investigation.

They have underlined how difficult the search is. They have underlined the friendship between their two countries. In the next half-an-hour or so, there's going to be a joint press conference with the two prime ministers in Perth itself. We're on the Pearce Air Base, a short distance from the city, where we hope that they will be asked questions which will give us a bit more clarity on what the focus of the search is at the moment, Don.

LEMON: All right, Sara Sidner in Kuala Lumpur.

So, this -- here's what they say. As for the criminal investigation and who are responsible, officials say some people have been ruled in and some people are ruled out, while others remain under the microscope.

Who are they focusing on?

SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, they have ruled out the 227 passengers. So now the focus is again on the crew, but not just those who were on the plane, like the pilots and the flight attendants, but anyone who got anywhere near this plane, for example, anybody that was involved in putting things in the cockpit, in the cargo hold, anything to do with this plane.

They're looking at each and every person that may have come in contact with this plane before the fated flight. So they have got a lot of work to do. And we heard from the inspector general, who said this is going to be a really long process. It's going to take a while because they're looking at so many different people at this point, Don.

LEMON: And so they're looking at so many different people, but, again, and the focus has been on the pilots. The family of the pilots are not happy about that, especially the daughter speaking out.

But I wonder how the families of the people on board feel. Are they concerned about that? Or do they think that they should be looking at every single person or are they with the family of the pilot?

SIDNER: Well, look, I think the families in general just want to know what happened. They want to know what happened, number one, to the plane with their loved ones, and they want to know why it disappeared.

And they do not have the answers to those questions. The investigators do not have answers to those questions. And, frankly, the families are beyond frustrated. Their frustration is off the charts. They're asking a lot of questions now. Now, there was a briefing here in Kuala Lumpur yesterday. They talked to officials.

They had military brass there. They had an ambassador there. They had someone from the aviation ministry. But the bottom line is, they were not able to give them the answers that they wanted, a lot of frustration, Don, as you might imagine. This happened back on March 8. We're now on April 4 here in Kuala Lumpur, and still no one is getting the answers they want.

But, as you heard, the search is difficult. There's a lot of area to search. They don't have enough information to extrapolate exactly where they think this plane may have gone down in the Southern Indian Ocean, Don.

LEMON: All right, Matthew Chance, Sara Sidner, stand by. Thank you very much. We're awaiting that press conference to happen in Perth, Australia, in just a little bit.

Also news of an earthquake rocking Chile, that's breaking news, as well as breaking news in Fort Hood. We will be back with that and more on the hunt for Flight 370 right after this quick break.


LEMON: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Don Lemon.

The breaking news here on CNN, there's a shooting at Fort Hood in Texas.

I want to bring in now CNN's justice correspondent, Evan Perez, Bill Gavin, who is a former FBI member, in New York, Spider Marks, General Spider Marks, Tom Foreman, and also on the phone is psychologist Xavier Amador.

Tom Foreman, I would imagine since that press conference was held and we have new information on the shooter, where he went on the base that you have been able to assess that and give us new information.


Really, the commander's comments have narrowed down what we're looking at. Remember, this is the base stretching out this way. This is the main gate coming down here. And it seemed to really focus on a relatively small area here.

If we move in past the main gate, we go into the big medical center complex here, which General Marks talked about a short while ago. If you look at the whole complex, remember what the commander said. The shooting began over in this area. The gunman then got into his car and he moved towards what the general referred to as the motor pool area.

You really get to the motor pool area, a very short distance off, you start seeing right here a lot of military vehicles over here, typical of the motor pool, the transportation folks there. And then you move further down the way, you come all the way down to more of it down here. This is all, as we thought all day long, along what's called Tank Destroyer Road here.

So it looks like, Don, we're going to be talking about fairly limited area in terms of where all this happened, right up here by the hospital, right over into here, maybe a little bit further, but, nonetheless, a fair distance. You would have to go all the way down here and then up into this area to get to where the Nidal Hasan shooting took place, so still on the same base, fairly close. But this is going to be where a lot of focus is going to be tomorrow -- Don.

LEMON: And, Tom Foreman, I just want to say that the president departing, getting off of Air Force One, now in Washington, D.C., where you are. The president was in Chicago earlier and gave a statement on this shooting in Texas, saying that these members of the military deserve to feel safe at home. And, of course, they can't feel that way when these things happen.

And this is the second shooting in five years, the first one, Nidal Hasan back in 2009, killing 13 people, injuring 32. He was convicted on 13 counts of murder and 32 counts of attempted premeditated murder. And now we have another member of the military killing three people and himself now.

I want to go to General James "Spider" Marks. And we have been communicating by e-mail and you have been talking about pre- and post- deployment medical screening. And that would indicate something to you?

MARKS: Absolutely. Before a soldier deploys, he or she goes through a pre-deployment medical screening, and you get into all the details that might be affecting that soldier, physical, psychologist, whatever it is. And it has to be done online and a doctor has to validate all that.

Then, when that soldier redeploys, you go through the same process. And so what you have is a before and an after view, and you want to overlay those two to see what the discrepancies are. What might have affected this soldier during that period of deployment?

So what happened with this soldier, as indicated, he deployed in 2011. If he went through the process, as he should have done, he would have come back, and within short order, probably a month or so, it would have been diagnosed that he was in the midst of some issues. The only thing I would raise at this point is that, if he was having behavioral issues and they needed to be diagnosed, remember also, he just moved to Fort Hood.

You think he would have stayed where he was, be stabilized, so he could have a continuity of care, so that he might emerge, then get a better diagnosis, and he might emerge from that. He would either stay or he would go on with his military career. But in the middle of that diagnosis, he was PCS. He had a permanent change of station.

Again, I would ask that question to figure out why that happened.

LEMON: OK. Let's go. I'm going to go a little more through your e- mail, if that's OK with you, if I share it.

MARKS: Sure. Sure. Sure.

LEMON: You said, so because of this, you said pre- and post- deployment medical screening would indicate behavior issues and/or suicidal tendencies. And you say, Army knew he was broken and he was doing what it could -- and was doing what it could.

He went off the rails.


The Army has a process that's in place., exactly getting their hands around what these potentialities might be. The Army was doing what it could to try to get this soldier in the right place mentally and physically so that he could continue to be a good soldier, if that was the possible outcome.

Nobody in the militaries wants to set anybody up for failure. We want these young men and women to have a successful outcome, to do well and make a contribution. So, the Army was doing that. It appears that this young soldier -- young soldier -- that this soldier had some issues. He probably was broken. He was going through this diagnosis and then something went sideways.

LEMON: He was married and has a family in the base area.

He had been deployed in Iraq for four months in 2011, came back, had a self-reported traumatic brain injury, and was being treated for behavioral and mental health issues, but not being treated for PTSD.

We're going to pick up our conversation shortly here, so make sure you stay with us.

We have several big breaking news stories happening tonight, the hunt for Flight 370, the deadly shooting at Fort Hood, and also an earthquake off the coast of Chile.

We will be right back.



TONY ABBOTT, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: If I may say so, it is the grace of the man that he should come here to Australia.

LEMON: A joint press conference being held in Perth right now between the Malaysian and Australian prime ministers.

Let's listen.

ABBOTT: ... personnel involved in the search for flight MH370.

This is probably the most difficult search ever undertaken, the most difficult search ever undertaken.

Even though we are constantly refining the search area, even though the search area is moving north, it is still an extraordinarily remote and inaccessible spot, at times subject to very difficult sea conditions.

But I can assure people that the best brains in the world are working on this. And, every day, working on the basis of just small pieces of information, we are putting the jigsaw together, and every day we have a higher degree of confidence that we know more about what happened to this ill-fated flight.

As I said, it is a very difficult search, the most difficult in human history. But, as far as Australia is concerned, we are throwing everything we have at it. And we are confident that we have, ourselves, the technical capacity, or that we can obtain the technical capacity from our friends and allies to ensure that we get the best possible outcome.

We do owe it to the families of the 239 people on board. We do owe it to our good friend Malaysia. We owe it to the people and government of China. We owe it to the troubled citizens of the wider world to do everything we can to solve this extraordinary mystery.

I say to the family members of the people on that flight, please be patient. I know this is an extraordinarily difficult, indeed devastating time for you. But we will not let you down. And when the time comes for you to visit Australia, we will extend to you the warmest possible welcome in a very difficult period in your lives. We cannot be certain of ultimate success in the search for MH370. But we can be certain that we will spare no effort, that we will not rest until we have done everything we humanly can.

I do pay tribute to all of the countries involved in the search. Apart from Australia and Malaysia, we have China, Japan, Korea, the United States, the United Kingdom, and New Zealand. This is an extraordinary piece of international cooperation. It really is an extraordinary effort, including an effort that's been joined by countries that aren't used to cooperation.

So, it is an extraordinary international effort that's been taking place here. And I say to anyone who might be inclined to pessimism about international peace and harmony, this is an antidote to pessimism. This is an example of how the countries of the world can work together.

This is one of those times when we are all citizens of one world, and we are all global citizens.

So, Prime Minister Najib, thank you for coming to Australia. Thank you for the generous tribute that you have paid to all involved in the search and recovery effort. This is...

LEMON: All right, press conference being held in Perth, Australia.

And here's the information that we have coming from Prime Minister Tony Abbott. He said, this is the most difficult search ever undertaken, the most difficult search ever undertaken. That's a statement to be heard. He said it was an extraordinarily remote and inaccessible spot.

Now the Malaysian prime minister is speaking. Let's listen.


Over the past three weeks, hundreds of people have journeyed thousands of kilometers to help. They have searched through stormy seas and freezing water. They have sailed through storms to find the plane. We owe them each a debt of gratitude.

This has been a remarkable effort, bringing together nations from around the world. When MH370 went missing, dozens of countries answered the call for help. Their commitment will not be forgotten.

In a time of great tragedy for the countries with citizens on board and the families whose loved ones are missing, this cooperation has given us all heart. Differences have been set aside, as 26 nations have united behind a common cause.

The disappearance of MH370 is without precedent. So too is the search. This morning, I met sailors and air crew at the Pearce Air Force Base. I also spoke to the commanders of the seven nations who are here to search for MH370. They told me of the difficulties of a search like this, of distance and weather and of maintaining morale over a long period. As I speak, 10 aircrafts and nine ships are searching the Indian Ocean for any sign of the missing plane. The search area is vast, and the conditions are not easy. But a new refined area of search has given us new hope.

And I believe that the courage of the crews is more than equal to the task. Once again, I thank them all for what they're doing.

I would also like to thank Prime Minister Abbott for hosting us here in Perth, for formally agreeing to lead the search operations in the Southern Indian Ocean, and for accepting our invitation for Australia to participate as an accredited representative in the investigation.

We're continuing to work closely with the Australian government to draw up a comprehensive agreement on the search. At this difficult time, Australia has proven an invaluable friend. The Australian authorities, like so many others, have offered their assistance without hesitation or delay.

I would like to sincerely thank Australia for all they have done and are doing to find the plane. We are -- we're also grateful to those who have brought the expertise to bear on what Prime Minister Abbott rightfully -- rightly called one of the great mysteries of our time.

The disappearance of MH370 has tested our collective resolve. Faced with so little evidence and such a Herculean task, investigators from Australia, China, France, Malaysia, the U.K., and the United States have worked with a force to reveal the aircraft's movements. Their collective efforts have led us here.

We are here today, but our thoughts are thousands of kilometers away, in the cities and countries around the world where families of those on board wait, and wait desperately for news. And in the vastness of the Indian Ocean, where MH-370 awaits. I know that until we find the plane, many families cannot start to grieve. I cannot imagine what they must be going through. But I can promise that we will not give up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prime minister, Najib, but given that -- of the information (INAUDIBLE).


LEMON: OK, so, taking no questions there in Perth. But good evening, everyone. This is a CNN special report. I'm Don Lemon. We are staying on top of our two big news stories, tonight's briefing on the hunt for Flight 370 and the deadly shooting at Fort Hood. I want to begin with the very latest on the missing plane. You just heard Australia's Prime Minister Tony Abbott say that the search is "the most difficult in human history". And Malaysia's prime minister also spoke about the extreme difficulty of that search. I want to go to CNN's correspondents who are out in the field. CNN's Ed Lavandera joins us now with more breaking news. This is the breaking news at Fort Hood, Texas, here in the United States. What do you have for us, Ed? ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, various government sources confirmed to CNN tonight that the name of the shooter, the suspect in this case, is specialist Ivan Lopez. We have -- CNN crew has spent some time at an apartment complex here in the Killeen area, where we saw military officials surrounding the apartment complex. We are told, waiting for FBI investigators to show up at that apartment complex as well. We spoke with one neighbor who told us rather a rather fascinating story that inside this apartment complex, as news of the shooting this afternoon was breaking around the Killeen community, there's an apartment complex where various military families live. That many of the families there were standing outside, watching and talking and hearing about this news. And it was then that one of the local stations had reported the name of the suspect. And it was the wife of the suspect who had been standing there. And that was how she had first heard that her husband was involved in the shooting. That neighbor tells us that this was a woman who didn't speak English very well, had just moved into the complex.

And according to Fort Hood officials here tonight, they say that Ivan Lopez had just been assigned to the Fort Hood installation back in February. But a great amount of detail that a Fort Hood officials here have already released, they say that the suspect in this case had been undergoing treatment for mental and behavioral issues. That he had not been fully diagnosed with PTSD, but had been deployed to Iraq for four months back in 2011. And that there were behavioral and mental issues that he was undergoing treatment as well as medication as well. Fort Hood officials also say, that the handgun, a .45 caliber handgun that was used in the attack today was bought several days ago, at a location just off of Post of Fort Hood -- Fort Hood officials say, it was a gun that wasn't registered with officials here at the installation. So, a great deal of investigation, a lot of moving parts here tonight done in a Killeen areas. Investigators continue to do a great deal of work. Fort Hood officials say, three people in all killed. 16 others injured. And a great deal of work being done at local hospitals as well, because several of those victims are still listed as being in critical condition. So, we'll continue to monitor that as well.

LEMON: All right. Ed Lavandera, thank you very much. We've been reported that at standby, because I want to bring in my panel of guests now. And CNN correspondents and experts Evan Perez, our justice correspondent is in Washington, General James Spider Marks joins us, and also Bill Gavin, they'll join us in just a little bit here on CNN to update us on the information. I want to stick with Ed, and we'll get those guys up to talk a little bit more about the investigation. Ed. Ivan Lopez. Do we know an age? We're also hearing that he has married and has a family, in the base area. Do we know anything more about him?

LAVANDERA: Well, we were told that he has a wife and kids, the exact detail on ages of those kids, for example, we do not know yet. But we do know as I mentioned that at the apartment complex, where he and his family lived, there's a great deal of work that is about to be under way there, as we imagine. FBI agents will be rifling through his apartment, going through computers, belongings and that sort of thing. And we're also told by a neighbor that the wife did leave the apartment complex area with military officials this evening. So, we were able -- we weren't able to talk to her, but -- and we are also told by Fort Hood officials here that they are going -- pouring over this suspect's medical records. As we mentioned, they say that even though he hadn't been diagnosed officially with PTSD, that there was anxiety issues, mental and behavioral issues that they will be examining closer.

The Fort Hood officials say that the suspect arrived here at Fort Hood in February, so he hadn't been here very long. In fact, that neighbor that we spoke with, say that they had moved into this apartment complex about a week ago. So, this -- not really an opportunity for many of the people that they lived next door to really get to know them. And on top of that, it appears that the wife, at least didn't speak English very well. So, probably very hard for, you know, their neighbors to get to know them all that quickly. So, we'll continue to follow up on that. We're also told by Fort Hood officials that one of the things that they are doing, they wouldn't tell us which military installation this suspect was transferred to Fort Hood from. But they did say it was another military installation here in the state of Texas, but then one of the things that they were doing, was going back to that installation, going through the medical records and starting to analyze or begin the process of analyzing the treatment history that the suspect was going through. So, clearly, Don, here, tonight, the question of an issue of PTSD, mental health. And, of course, many people raising the question of, if this was someone who was going through this diagnosis and this -- these treatments, how was this person able to purchase a weapon off post here in the Killeen area just a few days ago? And that is also, a great deal of legwork that will be done by Federal investigators as well. As they track down the history of that weapon.

LEMON: And that weapon is a .45 caliber Smith and Wesson semi- automatic. .45 caliber Smith and Wesson semi-automatic. I have no doubt it will be used in this investigation.

We've got where he purchased it and how. Thank you very much, Ed Lavandera. We are going to get back to you, but update within this hour a little bit later on.

Now, on the other breaking news story, the hunt for Flight 370. We have just heard from the Australian and the Malaysian prime ministers. And they gave a joint press conference. I want to bring in now my team of experts. First, Jeff Wise, he's the author of "Extreme Fear: the Science of Your Mind in Danger," Jim Tilmon, a retired American Airlines pilot, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Kay, former advisor to the U.K. Ministry of Defense, a military pilot and tactical instructor. David Soucie, author of "Why Planes Crash" And Les Abend, a 777 captain.

You know, I want to get your reaction to the press conference that we just heard just a short time ago. This -- this statement stood out to me. When -- when the prime minister said, obviously he said, this is the most difficult search ever undertaken. That's a big step. But he says, "We cannot be certain of an ultimate success in the search, but we will not spare any rest or any effort." Jeff Wise, he's saying, they may never find this plane. JEFF WISE, AUTHOR, "EXTREME FEAR: THE SIGNS OF YOUR MIND IN DANGER": Yeah, it was really remarkable. And he also emphasized that this was the most difficult search in human history. So, really -- not being very optimistic. In fact, he did talk about optimism, in the context of the optimism of human beings working together to cooperate, to search for a plane, but he didn't mention optimism in the context of finding the plane.

LEMON: Yeah, David Soucie, you know, the search zone moved again tonight. They referenced that a bit in the press conference as well. What does this move tell us about the satellite and the ping data that they're using?

DAVID SOUCIE: Well, I think that it's again, just a matter of the assumptions that they are making. They are adjusting the assumptions, the math they are using, they are keeping it. They are adjusting their assumptions based on other information they're getting, that, of course, we don't know. So, I think that's the only thing that it tells us really at this point.

LEMON: You know, Mike, officials earlier said that the search area moved because they were spotting very few new objects there. How do you decide when a search area has been fully exhausted, considering ocean currents or continually changing moving?

LT. COL. MICHAEL KAY, FMR. ADVISOR TO THE U.K. MINISTRY OF DEFENSE: That's a great question, Don. And I think, you know, because of the vastness of the area, that they are searching, they really have to make a quick decision. If they feel sort of 75 percent confidence that they covered most of that area, they have to move on. Because there's physically so much area to actually cover. Now, the slight good news in this new area moving east, is that it's slightly closer to Perth, and what that means is this is the transit time, so that P- 3s, the P-8 and the Ilyushins has been almost cut in half. If you go back down to that original search area, that we have from the very first satellite image that was something like 1,600 miles away. This is now 900 miles away. So, the transit times are going to be cut down to almost a half, which will hopefully mean more loiter time and more expedited searching in that area. But the thing for me, Don is, I'd really like to see the northern area. Tracking back up that arc that we've seen.

LEMON: You keep talking about that northern area. Why is it?

But tracking up north, in the Indian Ocean.

KAY: No, no forgive me. Not the northern area, but tracking up north. North from ....

LEMON: The Indian Ocean, you mean.

KAY: Yes.

LEMON: Not the northern track that was previously got ...

KAY: Absolutely. So, here's my question then. And that leads me to the next question, Mike. Should we expect the search zone to move every couple of days?

KAY: Well, I mean if they get to this new search area, and they manage to cover it fairly expeditiously, and that's going to be with the airplanes, by the way. The maritime surveillance aircraft, it's not going to be with the ships. The ships are just not designed to cover vast amounts of area. They travel at 15 knots. Just to put that into perspective, it would take a ship three days to cover 1,000 miles. It would take a P-8 two hours. So, they are not designed to do that. So again, you have to get into this new area, depending on weather, get the air craft off that, clear it all, and then move to the next location.

LEMON: Yeah.

Listen, there's a question from Jennifer. We'll get back to that. Pardon me, we'll get back to that. So, Jim Tilmon, as a pilot, you -- I'm sure you were paying close attention to the Malaysian and also to the Australian prime minister, and he's saying, listen, we owe this to the larger worldwide flying public. Not only to the families, but to get to the bottom of this. Do you agree? I'm sure.

JIM TILMON: I do agree very much. I mean people all over the world are looking at this, people who have no relationship whatsoever to the folks involved directly. They want to know what's really going on there. This story has really done a thing that has been remarkable in terms of getting the attention of the entire world. All of us want desperately to find the solution to this. And I suppose that's kind of -- one of those areas that we are going to have -- have to have a lot of luck. I seldom use that word, but we do need it.

LEMON: David Soucie, Tony Abbott often speaks directly to the families, he said to the families please be patient. We will not let you down. Tremendous pressure here.

SOUCIE: Yeah, and he said that we won't do anything -- we'll keep on this until it's humanly possible. The best efforts humanly possible. Well, there's a point, at which it's not humanly possible. And I think that's approaching with winter coming up. But one of the things to that -- that I want to make you clear, in my mind, is that we are dealing with these -the families and what they are going through right now. They are not looking for efforts. Although they're Herculean efforts. And it really (INAUDIBLE) those efforts, which is definitely do. These families are looking for results. That's how -- that's their measure. That's their measure of success. It's not the effort. Although it's amazing. But it does need to be mentioned. But they would need some results.

If we can't get that to them, then the next thing they are going to look for is what are we doing to make sure it doesn't happen again. And as Jim Tilmon mentioned, we have the world's view right now. They have the world's view. So, this time, uniquely, let's take this information and start now, and start putting some things forward, some fixes. For example, the 30 days versus 90 days on the pingers. That's still doesn't have a regulation. That was six years ago. Perhaps it will be a little different this time, and maybe this time, it will force governments to take action on the recommendations that come out of this investigation. Whether we find the aircraft or not or when we find the aircraft, the time is now to start moving forward on things that these families can know that they are making a difference. That their voices are being heard.

And that's being supported by the governments that support them.

LEMON: All right. Stick around. Lots more analysis to come when we come right back. More on the breaking news for the hunt for Flight 370. Right after this.


LEMON: Welcome back. I'm Don Lemon. We're live with a special report on the hunt for Flight 370. And I want to bring back my team of experts. Jeff Wise, author of "Extreme Fear: The Science of Your Mind in Danger," Jim Tilmon, a Retired American Airlines pilot, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Kay, former advisor to the U.K. Ministry of Defense and military pilot and tactical instructor. Steven Marks, an aviation attorney, and Les Abend, a 777 captain. OK, I want to read this new folders and new poll out, which asks, what most likely happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 370? The reason -- root poll finds that 35 percent of Americans say it crashed due to mechanical problems. 22 percent believe it crashed -- intentionally, it was crashed intentionally by pilots. 12 percent say it was destroyed by terrorists. And nine percent believe the plane landed safely and is in hiding. OK, so 35 percent of Americans still believe that this was a mechanical problem, with the plane. Have any of you changed your mind somewhat about the likelihood of that? I'll start with you, Les.

LES ABEND: Don, you know, my answer to this question after all the time we spend together. No, I'm with the 35 percent that think it's honestly a mechanical problem. I would just like to see us head in the direction of more specific search areas. Dave Soucie and I and Mike -- Mike Kay and I, all discussed this over a period of time, and I think narrowing down the search area is very important. I think the speculation over who done it is best left to investigator authorities. Let's get this airplane and let's find the airplane and let that process go on its own.

LEMON: You want to focus on the search so that you can get the investigation out of this as to what happened as soon as possible. Let's talk about this, Steven, a little bit more. Where do you fall on this? 22 percent say it was crashed intentionally by the pilots. Is there any sort of possible motive for this, you believe?

Steven Marks? OK. We don't have Steven Marks. Then I'll ask you about that, Mike Kay?

KAY: I think, Don, the problem is, that we don't have enough evidence to completely eliminate any of those four options. And so, as Les was saying quite wisely, we just need to keep putting the jigsaw puzzle together. We need to keep eliminating the data that supports various theories, and we need to corroborate the data that looks at the most likely scenarios. For me, the most likely scenario, just because of history will tell us that it's mechanical failure. You don't often get terrorist acts like 9/11. They are very few and far between. But again, all cards on the table, because we don't have enough evidence to eliminate any of them at the moment.

LEMON: 22 percent -- Again, I want to get this to Jim Tilmon, who said it crushed intentionally by the pilots. Any sort of possible motive for that?

TILMON: I've been worrying about that quite a little bit, but it worries me, too, that we may be looking at the wrong place. I'm curious to know if we do have definite ideas about last heading that airplane took before it went out of sight. I'm curious to know if we're really on the right side of the ocean. Because I don't really feel confident, frankly, don't feel confident that we're going to find what we're looking for where we're looking for it. I think we'd better go back to square one, to where we absolutely knew that we know where the airplane was at that point, and it didn't work from there. I think otherwise, we may just be spinning our wheels.

LEMON: Well, you know, I think the Australian prime minister may agree with you a little bit. He said they may not be able to find out, to solve the mystery, at least to find the plane, but he said, that they would spare no expense and that they wouldn't would go without rest until they found -- at least for the families to try to get to the bottom of it. But this plane may never be found. Let's go to the other scenario where nine percent said the plane landed somewhere and is hiding. Our viewers asked whether the plane could have landed somewhere on many islands in the regions like the Christmas Islands, or Diego Garcia. Or Western -- here's what some of you are tweeting. Western 777 says, "I still wonder why Diego Garcia has remained silent." They had a state of the art radar. What's up with that? Who is investigating, Jeff Wise?

WISE: Well, we know that it didn't went up in Diego Garcia. But, you know, to answer Jim Tilmon's question, there actually was some news about this today at apparently -- at a press conference -- at a conference between the authorities and the Chinese family members, it was reiterated that the last known heading of this plane was to the Northwest. This was towards the Andaman Islands. And so, you know, this is an important piece that really has been overlooked, I feel, like in reporting over the last few weeks.

There's now currently no known information known to the public, known to us that would determine that the plane went in one direction rather than the other.

LEMON: OK. All right. Hold that thought.


LEMON: Because you're saying this. Jim Tilmon is saying, he is not even sure we are looking on the right side of the ocean. Jim, it's even in the right ocean?

TILMON: I'm not so certain about that. I've never been able to get a definite answer as to whether airplane was the last time we knew. LEMON: OK.

TILMON: About its whereabouts and the heading that it took when it left there.

LEMON: Mike Kay is saying, he thinks that they should look further north. So, I'm not sure, not sure about you, Les, but are we in consensus, here? Are you guys in consensus? That we are not even -- we may not be in the right search area?

ABEND: Well ...

LEMON: I think -- you know, I certainly felt that way. Les Abend?

ABEND: Yeah, Don, I'd like to think that, you know, there are greater minds than I'm that at least we are calculating this up appropriately. My question is, yeah, I'm kind of with Mike K., with reference to moving the search area a little bit further north, because of my theory that at this 12,000 foot altitude, you're still in play. And that might mean greater fuel burn at a lower speed, and therefore, it went lesser distance. So, you know, I'm still leaning that way, but, you know, I'm not there, on that part of that investigation.

LEMON: Listen, you guys, have been, you know, exploring this more than probably most, except for the investigators who are -- in the middle of this -- actually doing the investigating for their search. And if you don't believe it's in the right place, if you are not sure, imagine that we are just spinning our wheels and all of those apparatus, all the personnel, all the men and women who are out there, looking in the wrong place? Imagine that.

We're going to be right back with more on the hunt for Flight 370. Including a look at what it would take to put cameras in the cockpit. When we come right back.


LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. Breaking news tonight, more on the search for Flight 370. The mysteries, a worldwide obsession. But what if the whole thing could have been solved with the push of a button on a cockpit camera? Convenient stores have security cams. Policemen have dashboard cameras. Why aren't we monitoring cockpits? Here's CNN Stephanie Elam.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are just saying that 3,000 ..

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As pilots guide commercial planes across the skies, everything they say is recorded.


ELAM: But unlike other modes of transportation -- we can't see what's happening at the controls. Cameras have shed light on accidents, like when this bus driver was caught on surveillance camera texting just before rear ending an SUV. Cameras are also keeping an eye on train conductors. And now the mystery surrounding Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 has reenergized the debate of putting cameras in the cockpit.

MIKE KARN, COALITION OF AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION: The amount of information that are driving right now from the aircraft exceeds anything in the other transport industries.

ELAM: Mike Karn of the Coalition of Airline Pilots Association says cameras would be intrusive.

(on camera): Why not put cameras in the cockpit of commercial airliners?

KARN: I want the pilot worried about flying the aircraft. And the second thing is, current technology allows you to monitor so many more parameters of the aircraft, that it's not necessary. You're going to know the altitude, the speed, the configuration- everything mechanically about that aircraft.

ELAM (voice over): In 2000, the National Transportation Safety Board recommended the Federal Aviation Administration require airlines to record electronic images. Data that would be included in two redundant cockpit data recorders. One in the front of the plane, another in the rear. But in the last 14 years, that recommendation has gone nowhere beyond being a suggestion.

JIM HALL: This information would be limited to accident investigation use. And otherwise, would not be available for viewing by anyone.

ELAM: Jim Hall was chairman of the NTSB when the recommendation was made.

After the investigation of several crashes found there wasn't enough cockpit data to determine what went wrong.

HALL: The cameras wouldn't be on the face of either of the pilot or the co-pilot. They would focus on the instruments and on the manipulations that were made.

KARN: We constantly see they are edging and edging more towards taking where the privacy of the pilots. We are performing our job up there. I would rather be focused on doing my job than what people see.

ELAM: Yet Hall sees passenger safety as a higher priority than pilot privacy.

HALL: I hope that we won't wait until we have a similar incident involving a United States airline and United States citizens to take the action that's necessary to provide for the safety and security of the traveling public.

ELAM: Stephanie Elam, CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: I want to bring back my team of experts now. Jeff Wise, the author of "Extreme Fear: the Science of Your Mind in Danger," Jim Tilmon, a Retired American Airlines pilot, Lieutenant Colonel Mike Kay, a former advisor to the U.K. Ministry of Defense, a military pilot and tactical instructor. And Les Abend, a 77 captain. Jim Tilmon, to you first. Many people have been somewhat surprised that there are no camera in the cockpit already. Should they be mandatory moving forward?

TILMON: No. And I say that because -- I think to begin with the airline pilot is a member of a profession that is scrutinized more carefully and completely than any other profession on the planet. They know everything that's going on that we are doing. Every move that we make because if it's recorded, in terms of how it's effective, they know that we have moved the controls the certain way. They know that we moved the certain power settings. We know that they -- we are applying for certain altitudes.

You know for that.

LEMON: But not -- you're saying all of that. You're saying all of that, but not in this case. We don't have that information in this case.

TILMON: You wouldn't have it if the camera was there, either. You can't find the rest of the ...


LEMON: If the camera had streamed, we would have that.

TILMON: Well, now we are talking about a different level of technology. You are talking about streaming information out of the cockpit.

LEMON: Yeah.

TILMON: You know, all of these things, they are wonderful ideas, but this is not original. This didn't just start today. I kind of tell you, if you took a poll of the airline pilots across the world, and to find out whether or not they have any interest in having a camera in that cockpit, I think you'd be amazed, you know, how few would say, yeah, OK, very few would say that.

LEMON: OK, I understand that. But -- I understand that, you're pilot and you -- but listen, when I walk in this building, when I walk out of this studio or in -- obviously, there are cameras around me, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven cameras on the television. When I walk out of the newsroom, there are cameras there. When I turn the corner to go to the hallway, there's a camera. When I go in the elevator, there's a camera. When I'm sitting in the back of the plane, there are cameras from people who are sitting there. There are cameras all over. Les Abend, why should there not be cameras in the cockpit? Simply because some pilot is worried that his privacy may be interrupted or destroyed? Or be taken away from him? Why can't that camera be on the instruments in the cockpit? Why shouldn't pilots have cameras up there?

LES ABEND: Well, Don, Captain Tilmon's statements -- I agree with a lot of them. It's intrusive. You know, we can all agree with that no matter what our work environment is.

LEMON: I understand that. It's intrusive. But it's intrusive in every work environment.

ABEND: But let me explain it further.


ABEND: It's left to misinterpretation. In other words, you can see the actions of a pilot building some -- there's no way you can get the pilot out of the picture despite what Mr. Hall says. It's left to misinterpretation. Years ago, Captain Tilmon would agree with me that aboard some of our airplanes we had cameras to be filmed or in the takeoff process. And it -- it was a fun thing for our passengers to see in public way, but we eventually took it off the airplane because we ended up with misinterpretations of that by passengers and attorneys. And it just got -- it just got out of hand. So, whether this really helps our situation, I don't know.

LEMON: What is misinterpretation? I don't understand.

ABEND: Well, you know, we are -- what -- the pilot is actually doing movie, flap levers movie, controls -- it's -- it possibly, put in public hands, can be misinterpreted. And ...

LEMON: But it won't be put in public hands unless there's some sort of investigation. It's just like -- it's just like the surveillance video from a convenience store ...

ABEND: Well ...

LEMON: The surveillance video that is on -- on one of the city cameras that are located all over the streets of every major city, that is not public unless there's some type of investigation and usually, if there's in it, to get the video.

ABEND: I get that. And my -- unless there are safeguards in place that this cannot be used for disciplinary purposes, you're never going to get any pilot to sign off on it. Now, we have used this type of stuff for the information off the digital flight data recorder. And that's for useful information because we are catching safety trends, but we are keeping it anonymous so that it doesn't matter that this is occurring by one specific pilot. But it could be by many. And we change our procedures according to that. So, the same thing with the cockpit voice recorder, excuse me, with cameras in there. If we have safeguards, we may start to reconsider that -- that process.

LEMON: We have to get you a break here, but Jeff, are they fighting a losing battle here, do you think?

WISE: You know, it's the way society is going, isn't it? There's -- you know, we are being watched more and more, everything being automated more and more. The technology definitely exists to stream, which, I know is a definition with this idea of information constantly being streamed, constantly being surveyed.

LEMON: I think people will say, if everyone in every single situation, in public, and even at their job, everyone is on camera. Why shouldn't pilots be on camera? Why is their profession differently? And that's why. That's why I challenged you, guys, on that. Stick around, because it is afternoon in Australia now and the search for Flight 370 is well under way. We're going to have the latest live when we come right back.


LEMON: We're back now with the breaking news for Malaysian Flight 370. There was just a joint press conference in Perth the short time ago with the Malaysian prime minister and the Australian prime minister. On the pickup where we left off, we are talking about cameras in the cockpit, and it's parked a very heated discussion here on CNN among my panelists. Joining me now is Michael Kay, Jim Tilmon, Jeff Wise and Les Abend. So, and -- I don't know if any other profession in the world, any other place in the world can someone who's an employee of someone else say, I do not want cameras on me. Even in operating rooms, even in court rooms, every once in a while, you will not have cameras in certain courtrooms. But why should pilots be any different, Michael Kay?

KAY: Well, I think we need to have this argument to debate in the context of MH-370. If you got cameras in the cockpit, and they are not being live streamed, and we'll talk about live streaming in a second, and they are being recorded onto a black box or some sort of data recorder, we are in exactly the same position now.

LEMON: But we are not. Let me tell you why we're not. Let me tell you -- let me tell you.


LEMON: Because if it's streaming to the point, where it gets over the ocean, and there's no capability of live streaming, at least you have the information up to the point where there's no more live streaming. Go on.

KAY: So, basically, you're telling me that every single jet, and there are thousands of jets that cross transoceanic flights every day, will live stream for the whole flight. I just don't think, a, there's a ...

LEMON: It will live stream to the point where ...

KAY: There's not ...

LEMON: It will live stream to the point where it can't live stream anymore. I can -- anyway, go on. Finish your thought.

KAY: Yeah, I'm just saying, the guys are only just picking up, let's go to computer data linking system, which allows them to talk through the ACARS. The other point is, if the ACARS can be turned off, which isn't supposed to be turned off, anyone that looks -- wants to do something subversive within the cockpit, will disable the camera. CCTV, as we know, isn't the bill and angle to solving crimes.

LEMON: Well, maybe we should have cameras and transponders and ACARS that cannot be turned off? That would solve that problem, wouldn't it?

KAY: You mean?

LEMON: Jeff Wise?

TILMON: Why don't we -- why don't we just ...

WISE: And I think you're wrong in saying that not everybody has -- everyone else has cameras on it. You know, the president of the United States used to record all of his conversations. And then it didn't work out well for Nixon.

LEMON: The president of the United States has cameras following him every day. He had ...

WISE: No, no, I'm saying ...

LEMON: Photographer that follows him. And there are video cameras as well.

WISE: When he's doing his job in Oval Office, Richard Nixon is still tape-recorded.

LEMON: Well, that's different. When Les Abend is at home, he doesn't have to have cameras on him. But when he is at work, in the cockpit, why shouldn't he have cameras on him?

ABEND: Don, Don.


ABEND: Let me- how is this going to increase safety levels if you have a camera in my cockpit?

LEMON: Well, you guys keep saying that. But in this particular case, this may have changed. OK, listen, we've got to move on. We'll get back to this discussion. I appreciate all of you. I want to get the very latest now, live on the search for Flight 370. Joining me now on the phone is squadron leader Leon Fox of the Royal New Zealand Air Force. Can you give us -- tell us about the search operation? How it's going? We know that it has been moved. What can you tell us?

LEON FOX, ROYAL NEW ZEALAND AIR FORCE: (INAUDIBLE) Not much more than that, actually. The (INAUDIBLE) aircraft airborne today has moved slightly north based on updated information that (INAUDIBLE) has provided us. We're continuing to drop data boys, on the air to help us seize drift, to make sure the modeling is correct. Apart from that, we've got to correct. We are continuing. There's a ... LEMON: Squadron leader Fox, you know, again, the search area has been moved a little bit. How are you -- how confident are you, you know, that you're in the right area? It doesn't matter. You're going to continue to search. I would imagine, regardless if you feel near in the right area or not, it's your job just to search that area.

FOX: That is correct. (INAUDIBLE). We're confident that the area we -- will eventually lead to finding something. The area is absolutely massive, and we have to systematically break it down and search it day by day to cover entirely. If we were to do it quickly, there's a high chance we would miss that. So, we are confident we are -- (INAUDIBLE), we just take -- you know, time to get there and narrow it down.

LEMON: New Zealand director, Peter Jackson, said that the jet is also assisting you in that search. It's a Gulf Stream jet. Is that playing helpful in the operation, do you think?

FOX: Yes. They are helpful. (INAUDIBLE). So we have them helping coordinate some of it communications back to SEC and we have others ones that have been helping with the search earlier on, it's a visual search. And we have another Royal Australia Air Force pick up -- helping with the (INAUDIBLE) as well. Let me bring (INAUDIBLE) helpful.

LEMON: Squadron leader Leon Fox with the world New Zealand Air Force, thank you very much, we appreciate you. And when we come right back, much more on today's search for Flight 370. Can we learn important lessons from another missing plane?


LEMON: We're back live now with more on Flight 370. What happens when a moment of crisis lasts for 27 years? Weeks after advantage, not -- advantage, not one piece of evidence as to the fate of that plane. All that investigators behind the scenes need is one break from the search zone. CNN's Miguel Marquez has more.


MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What went wrong, not necessarily with the plane, but in the eyes of many with the investigation?

(on camera): Were the Malaysians more quick to recognize that something may be wrong here and shared that more broadly within the international community, would that have helped?

SOUCIE: Well, I think it would have helped. In fact, I got an inkling that it was happening that way when they first hanged the search area to the other search area.

MARQUEZ (voice over): One thing investigators say, better organization, communication and sharing of resources in the early days could have focused the search. Searchers now redoubling efforts to find any shred of debris. A critical piece of the puzzle. ANGUS HOUSTON, JOINT AGENCY COORDINATION CENTER: If we could find a piece of the wreckage, some debris, we would then be able to narrow the search to a much smaller area.

MARQUEZ: Like a trail of bread crumbs, floating debris could lead investigators to the plane.

COLLEEN KELLER: We can take that wreckage and we could backtrack it to where it came from using detailed computer stimulations.

MARQUEZ: Colleen Keller helped locate the wreckage of Air France Flight 447, not with the ships and planes, but with math and every scrap of data no matter how weak flagged into a numbers crunching equation.

KELLER: The ACARS hits off the satellites, and the last radar and the endurance of the plane -- we weigh everything and we assess the uncertainties. And we come up with what we call probability map.

MARQUEZ: Currents wind patterns can help point the location of the plane, starting from where the floating wreckage is found. This is the actual area and simulated currents where searchers are now looking.

Here, the current is flowing very strong this way, very strong that way, very strong this way. I mean literally, three different ...


MARQUEZ: You describe this as a washing machine.

KELLER: Yeah, I looked at this -- and the first thing I thought was it looks like a big swirling cesspool or a washing machine.

MARQUEZ: Modeling so far shows debris moving very little from the place it entered the water.

(on camera): So, wherever that debris is, it could be very close to where the wreckage is you are saying?

KELLER: Right. Right. And if you find debris in this box, it probably came from the box originally.

MARQUEZ (voice over): In the case of the Air France Flight the plane's last known position, that tiny diamond in the middle of all that red, that's the most likely place to find the plane, floating debris was found along the top of the circle. That area there is blue. The actual plane found two years later, just a short way from its last known location.

(on camera): That was the last known location picked up by either ACARS or the (INAUDIBLE)

KELLER: It was the last position, transmitted by ACARS. They actually transmitted it a lot.

MARQUEZ: And that was the actual location. So, we are talking maybe seven or eight miles away.

KELLER: Yeah, seven or eight miles. Didn't get very far.

MARQUEZ: The hunt for MH-370, tougher. So little data, such a vast area. Miguel Marquez, CNN.


All right, Miguel. Breaking news tonight here on CNN. Planes and ships are crisscrossing the search area for Flight 370 right now, in Malaysia, Malaysian officials have brought up the plane's disappearance as criminal -- a criminal act. All passengers have been cleared. They have ruled it, I should say, a criminal act, and all passengers have been cleared. I want to bring in my team of experts now to talk about this. Probably a less animated conversation than cameras in the cockpit. But an important one, nonetheless. How could they have cleared all 227 passengers in this -- and what does it mean that they haven't cleared the crew, Michael Kay?

KAY: I mean, this isn't my area of expertise. In terms of sort of the FBI talk approach on the investigations. And doing the background checks on every single passenger on board. In terms of the crew, I think that's a more likely area to focus on. I think it will be easier to narrow down whether there were abnormalities in any crew behavior, either prior to the flight, or in previous flights. Something that we haven't, actually, learned a lot of. What were the previous flights of the pilot and the co-pilot? Where did they do their last sort (ph). Who were the cabin crews who actually worked with them on those last sorties, and how they spotted anything on toward to anything, you know, that wasn't normal. So, there are -- logical questions that can be answered. You don't have to be an FBI investigator to sort of, you know, delve into possible scenarios.

LEMON: I ask you the same question, and Jeff Wise, why rule out the passengers, but not the pilot and the co-pilot and then say it was not a criminal act?

WISE: They are clearly signaling where they're going with this investigation. And this is really, you know, that they've been heading from the very beginning. And we really have two pieces to this puzzle. We have the path that the plane took shortly after it deviated from its assigned route. And then we have these pings that tell us more or less where we are found out. And that's all we've really got. And if you look at the flight route, it was maneuvered through a rather intentional, and zig-zag pattern. So, it was not -- Zombie phenomenon that's become very popular over the Internet. And what the Malaysians are clearly saying, is that this was an intentional act, it was a criminal act, and by -- I think by saying that they've cleared the other passengers, which seems a rather monumental task and how can you completely rule out behavior by a human being, anyway, but they are really kind of a putting the hammer on this idea that they believe it was the crew.

LEMON: OK, and let's get this question, this is from Jennifer, who tweets, what does Malaysia know that we don't? To pursue criminal charges, we haven't found anything. So, what do you think the Malaysians know? Or do they know something you think we don't? Jim Tilmon?

TILMON: Apparently, they do. And a matter a bit surprise, and actually, I suppose -- for any normal investigation, they should keep some of these things to themselves until they get some firm data. That they can go to the banks on. But you know, we have so many questions that are so important, from so many people now, this may have to be one of those investigations where they open up and become a lot more transparent.

LEMON: So, Malaysia Airlines changing security procedure, where the pilot and the copilot can no longer be alone in the cockpit? How big of a deal is this? I mean aren't these rules already in place in the United States, Les Abend?

ABEND: Yeah, that's why that communicate kind of surprise me, because, you know, they are an international career, and it's more or less a regulation of sorts or procedure. That's been in place shortly after 9/11. So, that really surprised me, to tell you the truth.

LEMON: All right, guys. Stick around. We're going to be right back with more live coverage of today's search for Flight 370.


LEMON: We're back now with more on the hunt for Flight 370. I want to bring back my panel of experts. And thanks there for staying up with me tonight. It is Jeff Wise, gentleman, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Kay and Les Abend. I want to ask you this. This is from the Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott. He says we cannot be certain of ultimate success in the search, but we will spare no rest and no effort." What does that mean to you, Michael Kay?

KAY: I think the -- I think there's been so much inconsistency and discrediting information coming out of Malaysia, that I think Australia have salvaged this in terms of the credibility of an investigation. Right from the prime minister, all the way down to the military and the civilian search operation. So, you know, I personally think that Tony Abbott is doing a fantastic job in leasing this investigation on its national level.

LEMON: OK, we can't be certain of the ultimate success, Jim Tilmon.

TILMON: Well, we can't be certain of the ultimate success. We can't even be certain that tomorrow is Thursday or Friday. We can be certain of the fact that we really have the intention of making their very best effort so that everybody involved can be reassured that no one could do it better.

LEMON: Jeff Wise, I'll give you ten seconds.

WISE: He's cooling us off. He's getting (INAUDIBLE) for the whole thing to find down.

LEMON: Les Abend?

ABEND: The ultimate success is finding an absolute probable cause or probable causes in -and that's what he may mean. We'll find the airplane.

LEMON: Thank you, guys, I'm Don Lemon. Thank you for staying with us tonight. Live through all of our breaking news coverage. CNN live coverage of Flight 370 and the shooting at Fort Hood continues now with John Vause and Natalie Allen from the CNN Center in Atlanta. Good night.