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Seven Dead Babies in Cardboard Boxes
Aired April 14, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, seven dead babies found in cardboard boxes. Did their own mother kill them?
Plus, a shooting rampage. A neo-Nazi, a member of the Ku Klux Klan arrested.
I will take this on with the behavior bureau.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. We`ve got a lot to get to tonight.
First of all, Jenny Hutt who sits next to me every evening decided to move on to new projects. She`s been a tremendous asset to me and this show for the last year. We really do wish her the best.
Tonight, I`m bringing someone else to sit by my side. I`m pleased to have Sam Schacher sitting next to me.
Welcome, Sam. Appreciate you coming. It`s going to be fun.
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Thank you. I am honored, beyond honored.
PINSKY: Well, here we are.
So, we`ll start with a light fair (ph), like 39-year-old mom who cops say confessed to killing six of her own babies. According to police, they`ve been strangled and wrapped in towels. Tiny bodies discovered in cardboard boxes. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over the course of 10 years, police say Megan Huntsman gave birth who then killed at least six babies. Remains were found inside this home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say 39-year-old Megan Huntsman gave birth to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Huntsman moved out of the house in 2011. It belongs to the family of her estranged husband.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Megan`s ex-husband back in town after serving some eight years in prison on a drug-related charge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were cleaning out the garage and apparently going to take a lot of it to the junkyard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Came across this suspicious package. Had kind of a pungent odor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That led to a full-scale search in which police found the remains of seven dead babies.
PINSKY: Joining us to discuss: Michelle Fields, correspondent for PJ Media, Vanessa Barnett, social commentator, host of hiphollywood.com, and Loni Coombs, former prosecutor, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell."
Loni, police say this woman has rejected counsel. First of all, (a), does that tell you something about this woman`s state of mind? If you were called upon, (b), how would you defend her?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I`ll tell you, absolutely. Here she is facing multiple charges of first-degree murder and she doesn`t want counsel? There`s something off in this woman`s brain obviously. As a defense attorney, I would not be surprised to hear some type of defense evolve where it is obviously going to be some type of legal insanity.
Perhaps she was hearing voices. Perhaps these voices are telling her some type of twisted religious dogma like --
PINSKY: Loni, across 10 years or eight pregnancies, all this time actively hallucinating? I don`t know if I buy it.
COOMBS: But let me finish giving my defense, your honor.
Let`s say she`s hearing these voices and the these voices are telling her you need to go forward and multiply and replenish the earth. So, she gets pregnant, she has a baby.
Now, the voice tells her you need to sacrifice the baby like Abraham did with his son. She`s doing this over and over again to show she`s obedient to the voices. The voices tell her keep this secret because --
MICHELLE FIELDS, PJ MEDIA: Very good story tell.
PINSKY: Counselor, counselor -- OK, counselor.
COOMBS: That`s what a good defense is. You give the jury a theory to be able to understand the behavior. And now that she`s standing up and saying I don`t want counsel, she`s confessing to the police everything she did. She`s telling them in detail. It shows you that she`s not quite right in the brain.
PINSKY: Well -- or she feels so damn guilty she wants to feel some sense of relief. She`s been keeping this secret for years.
Michelle, you actually looked little nauseated during Loni`s defense.
FIELD: Yes. I mean, look, she knows the difference between right and wrong. The fact that she did this and then went and hid the babies in boxes shows she knew what she was doing was not right. But something`s off about this story. Something seems a little fishy. How do you get pregnant seven times and no one notices?
She had three daughters living with her at the time. How did they not notice that mom was pregnant, that mom was pushing out babies every single year? How did they not smell the odor of a dead body in their garage?
Something seems strange. I wouldn`t be surprised if, perhaps, some of these babies belong to her daughters.
PINSKY: Oh. That`s interesting.
Vanessa, what say you on this topic?
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOPHOLLYWOOD.COM: I think we`re missing something very big. We have a drug charge. I would love to know how this factors in. This husband pled guilty to possession of chemicals that can be used to make meth and that was in 2005.
So, we have so much in this story. We have drugs. We have hidden babies. There`s so much that I don`t care about this insanity defense that she`s trying to bring up. There are bigger issues. What about this drug charge?
PINSKY: Yes. Sam has been looking to those bigger issues. What did you find?
SCHACHER: Yes, Vanessa, not only was it a charge for the possession of chemicals to manufacture marijuana --
PINSKY: Marijuana? Meth.
SCHACHER: I`m sorry. Meth.
PINSKY: If you figure out how to manufacture marijuana, though, you`d be useful to pharmaceutical industry.
SCHACHER: Maybe perhaps I wouldn`t be sitting here.
But the fact of the matter is he did -- he was sentenced to nine years in prison. And he did try to appeal all three times of that sentence. But also, if you look back at his background report, he was sentenced to forcible sodomy as well as rape back in 1991.
PINSKY: OK. So go ahead, Loni.
COOMBS: That raises a whole other defense. I want to remind you, I`m a prosecutor. I`m not a defense attorney.
However, you`re asking me to think of defenses. Now, you`ve got the possible defense that this was an abused wife, that perhaps she was under the influence of drugs while this was going on.
FIELDS: Abuse? Her guy wasn`t hope.
BARNETT: There`s not enough --
COOMBS: Let me clarify -- when she was pregnant and killing the babies, he was in home. Be clear about that.
PINSKY: The whole ten years? I thought he was in jail part of that time.
FIELDS: How did he not know that she was pregnant?
COOMBS: That`s a good question.
PINSKY: One at a time. One at a time. Everyone`s very excited.
There are seven dead babies. I get it. I get it. Everyone`s very upset about this.
But here`s what I want to do -- I want to bring in the behavior bureau. They`re here. What do they think about the cardboard box mom, as we`re going to call her?
And later, the shooting at the Jewish community center was more than a hate crime. I`ll tell you what I mean.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the babies found were born between 1996 and 2006. At least seven pregnancies neighbors say were kept hidden.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would have never guessed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was one that would gain weight and lose weight and, you know, one of those that would kind of go up and down a little bit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We always thought she looked skinny.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was always a good baby-sitter because she baby-sat my grandchildren.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe she was just depressed.
PINSKY: Oh, my God. We`re back with Sam Schacher.
We`re talking about the mom so-called who cops say murdered at least six of her seven newborns. All found dead in boxes in their garage. Can you imagine, Sam, having been the woman that had that woman sitting her grandchildren? It`s like, whoa.
SCHACHER: I can`t. This story is bizarre. It`s morbid. It makes my skin crawl.
PINSKY: Yes. OK, it`s clearly struck a chord with our panelists because the last panel I couldn`t hear what anybody was saying. They were screaming at each other.
Let`s bring in the behavior bureau. See if they behave better.
Erica America, Z100 personality, psychotherapist, Tiffanie Davis Henry, HLN contributor and psychotherapist, Cheryl Arutt, forensic psychologist.
And if you`d like to join our conversation, you can tweet us right now @DrDrewHLN #behavior bureau.
Sam has the Twitter feed right on her lap.
SCHACHER: I do.
PINSKY: First up, Erica, she allegedly told cops she killed the babies immediately after they were born. What do you make of this?
ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO: That`s something known as neonaticide, when it happens the first 24 hours. Now, what kind of jumps out at me is not only did this happen once but it happened seven times which to me, I`m thinking mental illness. I am. Some sort of psychosis. Some sort of delusions or maybe post-partum depression, to be able to do it that many times.
And think about it -- she`s been lying to everyone in her life for ten years. That`s pathological in itself.
Now, at the same time, do I think that that means she didn`t know what was wrong? And that she should not be held accountable? I`m not saying that.
We need to know what she says her motives are. We need to look into this further. Also Loni said this earlier, not wanting a lawyer, that`s showing she`s not all there.
PINSKY: Weird, or she`s so guilty, she`s relieved to be able to tell somebody what the hell happened.
SCHACHER: I think she`s as evil as they come. And if this is somebody that either is evil or either is suffering from sort of mental illness, how over the span of 10 years was she able to mask her symptoms to the point where nobody tried to enforce treatment on her?
PINSKY: All right. Let`s find out. Keep going on the panel
Cheryl, what do you say?
CHERYL ARUTT, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think this is the million- dollar question, Dr. Drew. How did people not know? How did her husband sleeping with her not know through multiple full-term pregnancies? How did this woman give birth --
ARUTT: -- in a house with these people multiple times? That`s a messy, messy business to have nobody know.
And this is not the way that post-partum depression works. People don`t make their whole pregnancy a secret. They don`t do it over and over again. I think there are some very, very serious mental illness issues here.
PINSKY: Like chronic. Other than related to the pregnancy. Some sort of thought disturbance.
Tiffanie, agree with that?
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: I do agree with that. What I agree in particular with is that people would have known, even if they didn`t know about the pregnancy, they would have known that something was wrong in other areas of her life. It wouldn`t be just with the pregnancies and just with hiding the babies. We could see this psychotic or mentally ill person.
PINSKY: Yes, you wouldn`t have an old lady sitting there saying she was a lovely baby-sitter. She`s sitting my children routinely --
SCHACHER: Oh my gosh.
ARUTT: Is everybody in denial?
PINSKY: Let me add up a score. Let me float a theory. That the husband has been, what, was he convicted of sexual assault? He`s a drug addict who manufactured meth. That`s what was going on in this house as well.
She thought it was a good idea to get involved with that guy. That guy is in prison. How long has he been in prison for? Mostly eight years.
What do you guys think? She has no source of income. She may be a drug addict. Her grown children flee the household. There`s a bunch of dead babies.
Anybody think she might have been making a living creating babies so to speak and not have the money to protect herself against pregnancy? Anybody believe that theory?
ARUTT: The genetic testing would reveal that. I also wonder because I think he was in the house when she got pregnant with those babies. I also wonder, Dr. Drew, was she trying to get back him. Was she punishing him by going through this in a ritualistic kind of way?
PINSKY: Tiffanie --
PINSKY: -- you look kind of --
HENRY: We don`t know if those babies are his.
PINSKY: I don`t think they are.
HENRY: Yes, I don`t think they are, either. I think that would be a plausible reason for why she might have felt like she needed to get rid of them or --
PINSKY: That`s right.
HENRY: -- if like what Loni said, if he does have this sexual past and sodomy and stuff with the kids, maybe she felt like she was saving these kids from this guy.
PINSKY: Oh my God. So, it can get really messy.
Erica, last thought.
AMERICA: Yes, no, I mean, some of these stories we deal with here unfortunately are worse than the worst TV show we can think of. So, all we can do is just pray for the best and that`s all we can do.
PINSKY: Let`s leave it at that. Thank you, panel.
A 9-year-old who is kicked to death by his own mother --
PINSKY: We have a new -- yes, it`s Omaree. We have a new 911 call where you hear her unbelievable distortions and lies to the operator.
And later, cops call the shootings at two Jewish community centers. Again, Sam, a little light for you tonight.
PINSKY: These are hate crimes, but that`s not all. Someone who knows the suspect will join us.
We are back after this.
STEPDAD: Shut the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) before I really (EXPLETIVE DELETED) pop you hard, man.
MOM: You caused this on yourself, Omaree.
OFFICER: The 911 lady sent me the call. She said if I want to hear the call how bad it was.
PINSKY: Parents were able to lie their way out of this or manipulate their way out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just because they don`t listen and I was stressed out. I was having a bad day.
PINSKY: Six months later who you heard on the tape --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His mother Cynthia Varela Casaus was charged with killing her 9-year-old son.
PINSKY: She said, quote, "I kicked him the wrong way."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any time someone is associated with hurting a child, there`s a special place in hell for them. One officer has been fired. One officer has been suspended.
SAM BREGMAN, FIRED OFFICER`S ATTORNEY: The police in this particular incident are, especially my client, is a sacrificial lamb thrown under the bus by the chief of police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A teacher at Omaree Varela`s school notified authorities after the child told her his mother beat him with a phone and belt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They felt it was not necessary to remove them from the situation, either. So, the officer was suspended.
PINSKY: Back with Sam Schacher.
Now, 9-year-old Omaree was stomped to death by his own mom. Her excuse, quote, "I kicked him the wrong way." Unbelievable that those words could even come out of a woman`s mouth.
SCHACHER: Unbelievable. And she stomped him to the point, Dr. Drew, where I guess with her excessive force, he fell over twice and hit his head.
PINSKY: Now, Twitter, you told me is really reacting here.
SCHACHER: Absolutely. We`re inundated with tweets.
I have a tweet from Ms. T, she reads -- she writes, "Omaree was definitely failed by the system. As a result, lost his life to monsters masquerading as his parents."
I want to read one other tweet, from Baflame, he writes, "And to think how we used to complain about our parents. My heart cries for this precious child who lived and died a nightmare."
PINSKY: Very interesting. Let`s bring in, Loni -- I like the way they say it. No one should be complaining about our parents. Absolutely true.
Bring in the panel. We now have a new 911 call from the day Omaree died. After this, again, I have trouble calling her mom or mother.
SCHACHER: We need to remove that title.
PINSKY: Well --
SCHACHER: A waste of a flesh of a human being. That`s what we should call her.
PINSKY: She calls 911 and she lies to the operator. I want to show you a full screen of what she says.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
VARELA-CASAUS: My son was playing on a metal horse, like a rocking horse. My 2-year-old pushed him off, pushed him off the horse and it looked kind of like he was having a seizure or something so I was trying to do CPR and pushed on his chest and tried to get him --
OPERATOR: What address are you at?
VARELA-CASAUS: He`s really out of it.
OPERATOR: And he was pushed off a metal horse?
VARELA-CASAUS: Yes, well, he was playing on it and my little boy gets real aggressive and doesn`t like to share.
OPERATOR: He hit his head. Did he stop breathing?
VARELA-CASAUS: No, he hasn`t stopped breathing but he hit -- I tried to pour cold water on him.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: I want to get Vanessa on this, because Vanessa looked really saddened by this. Go ahead, Vanessa.
BARNETT: I am. I`m just infuriated. I`m beyond pissed. I almost don`t have the words. I said almost.
I do not believe in the death penalty. I believe in an eye for the eye. This mother should be kicked and stomped like she did Omaree. Kicked and so she can`t breathe, and kicked and so she`s unconscious. She blamed this young child for his own death.
He fell and hit his head? I poured cold water on him? I am disgusted. And if I could, I would kick her myself.
PINSKY: And, Loni, she`s admitted she did this. Is this now a plea bargain, a defense? What does she do?
COOMBS: Well, I don`t know if she`s trying to plea bargain it. But I`ll tell you, Dr. Drew, this is a disturbing trend. We seem too hear the stories more and more. We had the one with the mother and grandmother beat the boy with a belt on the videotape. I kicked him the wrong way.
The sentence before that was I was disciplining him. I was disciplining him. They think this violence and this intimidation and humiliation is appropriate parenting, and, Dr. Drew, I think it`s such a dangerous and extreme trend that parents seem to think this is an OK way to try and teach your children and it`s not.
BARNETT: There`s no right way to kick a child.
PINSKY: You strike a child, you damage their development and their brain. I don`t care what you say. There`s always, always a better way to discipline a child. The word discipline does not include striking.
FIELDS: Well, this just shows what a terrible mother she is. I mean, if you listen to the tape, she`s trying to pin the blame on the other child. So, not only is she lying about killing the child, she`s lying about who did it.
As a mother, your instinct should be to protect your child always. Instead, she`s making one a murder and she`s killing the other. They need to lock her up and throw away the key. This woman is disgusting.
SCHACHER: Yes, let her get hers in jail. Please.
PINSKY: Vanessa, I think the dad has not been charged with anything. Loni, I can`t imagine that we --
BARNETT: The phone call alone, the police all that Omaree made --
PINSKY: Yes, not only that, we hear him emotionally abusing him in ways I can`t believe one human talks to another human, let alone a step dad to a stepson. Loni, how is that possible? He`s still out.
COOMBS: Well, let`s wait for the investigation. There`s rumors there`s a second suspect yet unnamed and apparently he was at home when this was going on. And like you said in the tape before, it was so horrible, but he says, you want me to be your dad? I don`t want to be your dad. I would never want to be your dad.
I mean, there are so many ways he just hurt this little boy physically, mentally, emotionally. He needs to be arrested and he needs to be treated the same way as the mother.
BARNETT: There could be things in their past because one breath he`s like I f-ing hate you and next breath if you listen to this call, he`s like, we do this because we love you.
PINSKY: Oh, please, that kind of nonsense is so destructive to kids. You have no idea.
Let me ask you guys one thing. We`ve done a lot of talking on this program about whether or not the police are to blame, the Child Protective Services are to blame. Are we less putting the blame at the feet of the people who are trying to help? I mean, they`ve had more consequences than this dad has had.
COOMBS: Yes. I agree.
FIELDS: Everyone needs to be blamed here.
SCHACHER: Absolutely, Dr. Drew, yes. Are these parents absolute monsters? One hundred percent.
But, hey, this child cried out twice not only to his teacher which appropriately did alert the police. He had injuries on him. He had a burn marks --
PINSKY: That was at his autopsy, right? At the autopsy --
SCHACHER: Do you want to hear about some of those injuries from his autopsy?
PINSKY: Go ahead.
SCHACHER: He had burn marks on his lips, on his chest, on his back. He had cuts on his head. He had bruising to his genitals.
But even when he did go to school, Dr. Drew, he had injuries present there and the teacher alerted the authorities and the authorities did not do anything.
And then, again, we know with the 911 tape, this child was failed. Omaree failed. Omaree should still be alive.
PINSKY: You guys, for some reason this conversation is the most disturbing we`ve had so far.
SCHACHER: I agree.
PINSKY: You really see just -- I guess it`s continued to unfold and we have this dad --
SCHACHER: It`s nauseating.
PINSKY: Let`s leave it. OK. Thank you, panel.
Next up, we`re going to talk about a neo-Nazi accused of three murders. Hate crimes? We`ll see.
And later, a former FBI operative who knows this suspect, who knew him. He will tell us why he believes this man behaves like he did.
Back after this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the eve of Passover, a lone gunman opens fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four, five shots have been fired into front door. There`s a male with a shotgun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe that his motivation was to attack a Jewish facility.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A white supremacist and former Ku Klux Klan member is charged with killing three people outside the Jewish community center.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police arrest Frazier Glenn Cross.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a terrible, terrible kind of individual, exactly the kind of hate that you see percolating on the fringes of our society, but really erupting in this blaze of violence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As he`s being taken away, he shouts a neo-Nazi slogan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Heil Hitler!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve got two down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody can say they didn`t see this coming.
PINSKY: Back with Sam Schacher.
Now, the man who opened fire on two Jewish facilities was active and vocal in hate groups during his entire adult life.
So, how do people get that way?
Let`s bring back our panel. Michelle, Vanessa and Lani.
Loni, he became an outcast within the white supremacy movement. What else do you know about him?
COOMBS: Well, he`s not just a white supremacist, he was a big leader of a white supremacy group. He started the Carolina Knights, the KKK in his area. He was the president. He founded it. And it had to close down because Morris Dees went after his organization and had him prosecuted for running an illegal paramilitary organization.
And then he got arrested and he went to prison for plotting the assassination of Morris Dees and weapons charges.
Now at that point, he struck a plea bargain. He turned in 14 other white supremacists so he only had to go to prison for three years. So he was considered a race traitor amongst his own people.
He kind of went underground for a while. But in 2005, he kind of came back out. He started this newsletter...
PINSKY: Do you think, Loni, do think this was an an attempt to sort of reestablish himself within that community?
COOMBS: I think it very well could be. He`s tried to run for Senate a couple times on racist dogma. And now he`s doing this. I mena, this will make him a hero amongst the white supremacist. He did it right near Hitler`s birthday, 04/20 which is a very significant time. He did it on the eve of Passover. So there`s a lot of significance in the Aryan Nation for what he did. And he will be considered a hero for this.
PINSKY: Vanessa, your thoughts?
BARNETT: I`m just perplexed. I have so many thoughts. First, I wonder, is this just a hate crime? I know -- I think I read that he went out, he asked these people if they were Jewish and they still responded that they weren`t and he still killed them. So, I`m wondering, is there are more to the story that we don`t know and there`s more that`s going to come out about the level to which he is angry and is just -- it takes a certain type of person to go from hating someone to actively killing people.
PINSKY: Yes. And to be hating -- to be killing randomly, not even the people he allegedly hates.
BARNETT: Exactly. Exactly.
PINSKY: So, Michelle, your thoughts?
FIELDS: I think this was a man who wanted attention. He craved recognition. That`s why he ran for office. He did radio shows. He had a newsletter. And I think he`s getting old and he realized that he was not recognized within the country and within his crazy fringe group. And he wanted to do this to get recognition.
And what bothers me is I think the authorities dropped the ball on this. This was a guy who was on Howard Stern a couple years ago saying Hitler was the greatest man who was ever on the planet. This is a guy who had grenades in his home. Why weren`t the authorities looking at him?
You have got the NSA looking at all these innocent Americans. Focus on this guy.
PINSKY: Vanessa, that`s my question, too. How do these guys -- how can they walk around the world?
But listen, I tell you something, I have someone on the phone who is a former FBI operative. His name David Gletty. And he had infiltrated extremist groups.
You actually had met this particular suspect. So can you explain that to us? How -- I assume you saw all this horrible -- this planning and this horrible violence. How come something couldn`t be done about it?
DAVID GLETTY, FRM. FBI OPERATIVE: Absolutely, we witnessed that working in an undercover capacity. There`s so much of it, as so many times before, as your other sguests stated, that law enforcement drops the ball, because sometimes they`re overwhelmed with so much information because there`s so many of these people out there. And quite frankly, sometimes it comes down to not enough resources.
PINSKY: Yeah, it`s so hard for me to imagine that that there`s that many of these people...
BARNETT: What are they supposed to do? When does it cross over from free speech into a law issue where they can actually do and do something? If he hasn`t committed a crime, where do they get to step in and where can they prevent it before it infringes on our rights.
PINSKY: David, maybe you can help us with that.
FIELDS: Wel, he had weapons illegally. He had weapons illegally, so he was doing it there.
PINSKY: How about that, David?
GLETTY: Well, yes, when -- I met him in a place in South Carolina, Lauren, South Carolina, I was introduced by Sunny Hodges, and at the same time I was introduced by a Mr. Von Bruins. And I was told Mr. Miller was coming back out from the underground because of some of his past and he was considered a race traitor but he was considered a hero by others because I heard tail that some of the people he turned in were rats, anyway.
But this guy, you know, when I met him, I think he was 60, 63 or whatever. But he was considered a hero at the meeting I was at in Lauren, South Carolina because he was a former prisoner of war. You know, he went to prison, I believe, for a couple years. Once you go to prison as a white power person, you`re considered a hero, a white power person.
And I know it`s sickening, but they compare it to, like, a badge of honor, a medal of honor in the military.
PINSKY: That`s some weird parallel universe.
GLETTY: It is, yes.
SCHACHER: Can I ask David a question?
SCHACHER: David, you heard one of our panelists, Michelle, describe him earlier as somebody perhaps who`s craving attention. When you met him, did you see him as a narcissist, somebody with a boisterous personality? How would you describe his character?
GLETTY: That`s what I noticed about him is he wanted to be in charge, but he was holding back. And now I know -- I didn`t know why he was holding back, but now I know why he is, because of his past.
But he was -- I was told he wanted so much -- and I was told by Mr. Sonny Hodges who was heavily in the Klan, he`s from Georgia, that he was -- Sonny didn`t like him, but Sonny was telling me that he was wanting to regain some of his old power. He used to be a big leader.
PINSKY: This may be another attempt to do that.
Thank you, Mr. Gletty.
We`ll bring in The Behavior Bureau next.
And later a half naked thief run off with some boxed wine. We have the video. We`re back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a horrible act of violence. And my dad, our dad, and my son, were at the wrong place at the wrong time for a split second.
MINDY CORCORAN, DAUGHTER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: My name is Mindy Corcoran. I`m the daughter of this gentleman who was killed. And I`m sthe mother of the son who was killed. And I want to tell you how much I appreciate you all being here. I heard there was going to be a vigil and we all grieve in different ways.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know what, he was with us for a wonderful 14 years. He had a really full life for a 14-year-old. People keep saying, how come you`re so strong? And I`m strong because I have family. I`m strong because I have faith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam. And, of course, that is the woman who lost her father and her son in the Jewish -- shooting at the Jewish Community Center.
Lots of people can`t believe -- I`m one of them -- how composed she was just hours after her family members had been violently killed.
Sam, I don`t know, I certainly wouldn`t be like that. And I would suspect -- I knew she was going to say faith, I knew she was going to say important relationships but I also expect she`ll collapse in some sort of terrible pain soon.
SCHACHER: Right. I think she`s in some sort of shock. Maybe this is her self-preservation mood. I have no idea what I would do if I was in that position. I feel like I would have to be hospitalized. But Dr. Drew, I have a...
PINSKY: I might be, too. Let`s be fair.
SCHACHER: I know.
OK. So question for you, and I know that Vanessa asks this on the previous segment going from being a hateful bigot as this man was and spewing out hatred. How do you go from living it and then actually creating harm on someone?
PINSKY: Here -- I`m so glad you brought that up, because I -- when we bring in The Behavior Bureau, it`s my greatest concern that I want to discuss with them which is that all this incredible aggression, as you get older, many other reasons we can talk about, too, but one that concerns me as you get older, your frontal lobes are not as effective in containing impulses. They`re not so effective anymore. So, you tend to be more likely to do impulsive things. YOu know, old men sometimes grope and do things -- and they just do.
And if you have so much violence in you, you may not able to contain that at a certain point, or if you have a certain amount of what`s called small vessel vascular disease, you have little strokes or something, that would certainly bring it out as well.
Behavior Bureau is back. Let`s bring them in. Erica, Tiffany, and Cheryl.
So, the question we`re asking is how are people like this shooter created?
So I gave you guys one scenario how it might happen. Of course, also something he might just have a bad day and have a fight with somebody and start acting out. But more than why that day, I`m wondering from you guys, how do you create this kind of hatred? I can`t understand it.
Erica, how do you create it?
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHEROAPIST: Well, this is just a nauseating story to me and I`m sure a lot of people to think a person in 2014 can have so much hate that they will literally lash out onto strangers who ended up not even being Jewish if that was his intent.
So I just want to say I hope the full weight of the law does, you know, go upon him at this point. But, yeah, I just -- I think it`s something that`s slowly cultivated. I mean, this guy was an active member of the KKK. And I know this is a whole other issue, but why these groups should even be allowed to exist. I know it`s about the first amendment, freedom of speech, and of course, I`m all for that. But the fact that it`s cultivating over years, similar to like terrorism groups. Why is this any different than that? It`s slowly getting people to have such hatred to people they take it to the next level.
PINSKY: Or, or, Tiffany, maybe not the slow percolation, but these guys may arrive to these organizations with having been, I don`t know, the hatred beaten into them by their family origin.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Could be. It could be completely cultural. It could be completely from their family of origin like you`re saying.
But I kind of think this guy -- he appeared pretty highly functional. I mean, he`s run for Senate. He`s done a lot of things in and around this community.
But that religious preoccupation that he seemed to have had over the years and that the bigotry, the hatred, almost has formed into more of a delusion. And just being preoccupied with it, that it is a fixed delusion that he`s had that now he`s acted on it in a way maybe he wouldn`t have several years ago.
PINSKY: And, again, Cheryl, Tiffany brings up an interesting point, which is whether that delusion comes because somebody is bipolar and they`re getting more manic, or because they`re just getting older and having little strokes, or having frontal lobe disruption, whatever it is, sit ain`t good.
CHERYL ARUTT, CLINICAL AND FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, you made a point about how when people get older their brains change sometimes that disinhibit them and make them act out.
But there are other things that disinhibit young men and make them act out impulsively and it seems to be...
ARUTT: ...on both ends of the spectrum -- drugs and a number of other things. I think what`s important here to understand is that psychologically, people can project their own hostility and hatred and aggression out on to an other, whatever that group is going to be, and then they think that other is coming at them and they channel all of their aggression and justify it by claiming that it`s coming back at them.
This is somebody who used all of his hatred and aggression to go out and attack people, calling them threats when they weren`t threats.
ARUTT: And this is a man who`s been doing this his whole life. IU don`t think these are brain changes. And he targeted paramilitary groups.
PINSKY: Again, I can`t understand where it comes from, this magnitude of hate. It`s -- they`re made in the lab, they`re not just born. And I want to look at the family and the communities where these people come out of.
But let`s leave it there, because I`m going to go now to a different kind of story. S woman who throws off her drawers and steals boxed wine from a convenience store. There`s that video.
Reminder, you can find us any time at Instagram @drdrewhln. We`ll be right back after this.
PINSKY: I am back with Sam Schacher.
A woman walks into a store, steals boxed wine, then walks out without her pants. Needless to say, you`ll never guess where this happened.
PINSKY: Funny thing. Florida.
She is still on the loose. Here`s the woman they are looking for. There she is.
And I`m a little more concerned by the boxed wine than the lack of drawers.
But be that as it may, let`s bring in our panel, Erica, Tiffanie, Cheryl. They`re all back with us.
Erica, your reaction.
AMERICA: Yeah, well, there was another woman who was on camera without pants last week and everyone thought it was so hot, that was Rihanna. This was a little bit different, OK, this is in the middle of the day.
Yeah, she`s stealing boxed wine. It has to be either that she`s inebriated or intoxicated or she`s having some kind of psychotic episode, she`s off her medicine. Thankfully no one was hurt except the people who had to view that at the time.
SCHACHER: Just a typical Saturday night.
PINSKY: Or adjust the amount of alcohol she`s consuming.
But Erica, you and Rihanna, I was at the MTV Movie Awards yesterday and I was watching Rihanna and your Istagram was going off with Rihanna pictures while I was watching her.
SCHACHER: She`s on top of it.
AMERICA: I`m on top of everything. I love my pop culture.
PINSKY: Cheryl, your thoughts?
Dr. Drew, I think we need to consider it`s possible this woman didn`t carefully read the sign above the supermarket. Publix and took it literally, right?
ARUTT: Seriously. I think she had a shirt, she had shoes, maybe she thought she was good.
PINSKY: Cheryl, hold on, there`s a tweet next to you. We`re going to put it back up again. It`s hysterical. It said basically, "my mom has embarrassed me for the last time." There it is.
Tiffanie, what do you think?
Apparently she was arrested last month on a battery on a firefighter and resisting arrest. Sam, what do we know about this?
SHCACHER: Right. OK, first of all, she`s a 35-year-old woman. And back on March 2, she showed up to an apartment complex pool and she was she was yelling obscenities and she was creating a ruckus and so somebody alerted the authorities and they came to just check on her wellbeing and what had happened was she then resisted their assistance and that`s why she was arrested.
PINSKY: So, Tiffanie, we`re building a case for pretty significant trouble here. Really a mental illness. This poor woman may not be somebody who should be even out of a structured environment.
DAVIS: And she definitely don`t need to have any wine.
HENRY: You know?
SCHACHER: Boxed wine at that.
HENRY: But you know what, I want to take a poll on this panel because I think that one of the first things that most women do, especially if you have big boobs, the first thing you do when you come in the house is you take your bra off and get loose. I think she got loose in the wrong order.
PINSKY: Well, hey, Tiffany, I would be the first to say that`s for sure what I do. It`s the first thing. Thanks for checking the panel. First thing I do every time.
HENRY: I mean, she just wanted to get loose. She just did it in the wrong order.
ARUTT: You`re take a poll about what we take off when we get home?
HENRY: You got to take something off and pour the wine.
SCHACHER: Dr. drew, how -- OK. How can we -- we`ve had a number sof different stories where people have removed their pants, but it wasn`t only attributed to mental illness, it was attributed to the guy driving was attributed to him drinking. They didn`t test that he had any other drugs in his system. The guy who was fleeing the cops.
PINSKY: But I still see that as substance abuse is a mental illness. I think we maybe use that term generically, but Erica is saying, yes, we use that term, we include that under that umbrella.
SCHACHER: Substance abuse and mental illness.
AMERICA: We can see inhibition, the inhibitions are lowering in all these people and that`s why they`re kind of running around.
But it`s funny with the stories they`ve been getting progressively worse. First we had the guy with no pants. Then the woman in McDonald`s with the thong. and now it`s completely off and now it`s -- what`s next?
PINSKY: Interesting you bring that up, because next up, IK want to discuss whether or not these things are becoming more common. Here`s the McDonald`s episode right there. Or do we just have more cameras out to capture it? Talk about it after this.
PINSKY: A man slams his car into a school bus then takes off his pants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oftentimes when I`m driving thinking about you ladies I take my pants off.
PINSKY: A crazed topless woman destroying the interior of McDonald`s restaurant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s topless in her panties. She has blond hair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, she`s stealing wine, but she forgot her pants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Samantha, Erica, Tiffanie, Cheryl. We`ve covered a few stories in the past couple weeks involving people...
SCHACHER: Sans pants.
PINSKY: Well, just sort of understood burdening themselves, they unburden themselves, and then they go ahead and break the law after they`ve unburdened themselves of their drawers or their bras or whatever else.
Now, I believe there`s something specific happening here. Well, I`ve got a couple of ideas. But I want to give my panel a chance to give their opinion about this.
Sam, I`m going to start with you. What do you think this is? Is there more cameras? Are people were crazy or both?
SHCACHER: That`s the million dollar question. I often think is it that our society is deteriorating, or is it the fact that there are surveillance cameras everywhere, or somebody has a smartphone? I don`t know the answer to that.
PINSKY: And Cheryl, there`s cameras on the police cars, there`s cameras on their lapels, there`s cameras in our hands. So certainly you`ve got to be recording more, but by the same token, I don`t know about you, but I have been concerned about our country.
ARUTT: I`ve been concerned, too. If there`s bad behavior out there, we`re going to capture it. Somebody`s going to film it.
But I think -- a, I think people are really wanting some attention and there`s no better way to get attention than to take your pants off in public and let people -- I`m not recommending this. I`m just saying it grabs attention.
PINSKY: Erica, you agree with that?
AMERICA: Yes, well, I`m someone who naturally looks at both sides of the equation. So I think it`s just that. Some of it was always there, there`s more cameras. But then there`s the fact people with the smartphones and wanting to get that validation and that ego support by getting likes online are doing things more as well. So I think it`s a little bit of both going on.
PINSKY: But Tiffanie, what we keep reporting on, correct me if I`m wrong, we keep reporting on there`s major mental illness in these cases we`re seeing. The lady in McDonald`s was bipolar. The guy with the bus was loaded on some kind of drugs. This woman with the box of wine, there`s a lot of history there.
These are serious mental illness. And the clothing thing is one little symptom.
HENRY: clothing is optional, Dr. Drew. You choose to wear it on TV. I don`t know why, but you do, so we live with it.
However, I think that -- I think there`s a lot of mental illness, a lot of substance abuse going on. But I think the overarching fact is that there are more cameras that capture this type of stuff and so we`re all seeing it, more aware of it now.
PINSKY: And by the way, there`s a tweet up next to you that says, she needs to have a psych evaluation. That`s not normal. Has to be some kind of mental illness. No pants? Really?
But there is another interesting thing about this, Sam, which Adam Corolla and I used to have a game, we called it Germany or Florida. Whenever something bizarre would happen, we would test ourselves -- it`s got to be one or the other. And strangely enough, most of these stories we`ve been reporting on have been in Florida.
SCHACHER: Is there something in the water? No disrespect to our Floridian viewers, but is there something in the water? Really?
PINSKY: I love -- my children all have friends that are Floridians. I love the state of Florida. I believe Florida is closer to California culturally than some people say. They may not want to own that, too, that`s maybe something they want to disavow as well.
But the thing I see in Florida is a lot of substance abuse -- Erica.
AMERICA: Yeah, I just want to say the great thing about these stories where people are wearing no clothes is...
PINSKY: The great thing? They`re not wearing clothes.
AMERICA: No, where that`s too. But I`m just saying no one was hurt yet so this can still be directed in the proper way where they get the treatment before they accidentally kill someone or do something like that. We talk about a lot of serious things on this show and it`s nice to be able to laugh sometimes.
PINSKY: That`s right. And as we`ve said over and over again, people, get help before you hurt yourself or somebody else. If you have strange thoughts, if you have trouble functioning, if you`re a drug addict and you need to stop, you need to do that with treatment. It`s required. It doesn`t get better by itself.
Last thoughts, first Cheryl then Tiffanie. Real quick? Cheryl.
ARUTT: I think this woman who stole the line, it looks like what we used to call hebofrenics, schizophrenia possibly, like a disorganized schizophrenia. These are serious things. And, yes, we do want to laugh sometimes. A little nudity didn`t help anybody. But please get help. If you`re having a problem, don`t do it alone.
HENRY: It certainly speaks to where we are with mental illness in this country that, you know, our first reaction is to say, you know, she must be crazy, we want to laugh and all that. But it really is sad that these things can go unnoticed in our community and it`s because we have this stigma, this, you know, overwhelming fear of mental illness that we can`t continue to do that.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. Good panel.
Forensix files is next. Tonight, a blood-soaked bedroom and a woman who was stabbed more than 100 times. Forensic Files starts right now.