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Dead Babies Mom Jailed: $6,000,000 Bond; The Man Who Interviewed Frazier Glenn Miller; Fighting in Schools to Go Viral?; U.S. Airway`s Twitter Gaffe
Aired April 15, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, cardboard box mom -- the woman who admits to suffocating at least six of her own newborn infants and disposing of them in cardboard boxes. I`ve got an exclusive with one of her neighbors.
Plus, the neo-Nazi Ku Klux Klan member accused of murder. Where did he learn to hate?
The behavior bureau will answer that question.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host, of course, is Samantha Schacher.
And we begin with breaking news. Miley Cyrus is in the hospital. Her people say she`s had a, quote, "severe reaction", unquote, to antibiotics.
She is -- unclear what that means, unclear what they`re doing, but she`s in the hospital. She recently tweeted she`s not been well, citing a fever and cough that wouldn`t go away. Her concert in Kansas City tonight was cancelled. There she is in the hospital bed -- a picture she tweeted of herself in a hospital bed, hospital gown.
You look surprised, Sam.
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: I had no idea and usually follow all this, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: You`re behind. I`m ahead of you, fantastic.
SCHACHER: But that`s so annoying to me.
PINSKY: But I want to tell you something. This kind of stuff, medical reporting drives me insane, because people -- many of our producers, people online are saying, oh, she a severe allergic reaction.
SCHACHER: How common is that?
PINSKY: Well, first of all, does she have an allergic reaction or just sort of untoward effect of antibiotic? Allergic reaction is rash, shortness of breath, shocky. Untoward reaction --
SCHACHER: What`s shocky?
PINSKY: Like shock, like low blood pressure.
PINSKY: And untoward reaction to an antibiotic would be diarrhea, vomiting, that kind of thing. That`s just untoward.
But it`s just a reminder for everybody, don`t get antibiotics needlessly. She`s sick, with fever, she probably had a viral illness. Viruses don`t respond to antibiotics. Don`t take antibiotics needlessly, you`re more likely to have problems, not only antibiotics -- making bacteria resist antibiotics. You`re more likely to have an adverse reaction that something positive from those antibiotics.
So, I`ve said my piece, good to know. And I also feel gratified I was ahead of you with pop news.
SCHACHER: It`s not going to be often, so bask in it, as right now in this moment.
PINSKY: I like how you put me on notice. This is not going to happen again. Okay, first story tonight. We have new details about the mother who`s told cops she killed her own babies. We may know more about the reason the tiny bodies, seven corpses were found wrapped in towels and packed in boxes in the garage.
Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jimmy Brady has been dating Megan Huntsman for about two years. She moved into his home West Valley City home just last year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He shared one picture with us that he`d taken with Megan Huntsman. He wouldn`t show his own face. Total shock, he said.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anything about her that would indicate anything?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, nothing at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbor Josh Flowers says he`s known Megan since she moved from her pleasant grove home. Flower says he trusted her implicitly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s babysat my daughter, 2-year-old, 7-year-old, 10- year-old daughter, my 3-year-old nephew. She made cookies for all the kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Huntsman made her first court appearance.
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: Ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your response?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s fine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That same woman making cookies for kids answered "that`s fine" to her bail amount, $6 million, $1 million for each child prosecutor she admitted to killing.
Joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, Segun Oduolowu.
Welcome back Amy Paffrath, host of "Hollywood Minute" on Bite Size TV.
Segun, I have not heard your thoughts on this case yet. You know the details. What are you thinking?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Dr. Drew, first let me say, Sam, I love where you`re sitting and keep it warm until I snatch it from you.
PINSKY: We saw your tweet, by the way. We saw the tweet. We got it.
SCHACHER: Is your tie in a bunch tonight?
ODUOLOWU: Actually, I am a bit upset because this story and what bothers me about it, she`s crazy. She killed the six kids, but what bothers me are the neighbors that didn`t notice she was pregnant seven times, and I said last show for evil to happen, good people need to do nothing. How do all these good people in this community look the other way when she`s pregnant seven times?
Is she a magician, hiding pregnancy so well no one noticed her giving birth seven times? No one sees the baby? I mean, it boggles the mind that nobody knew anything and she was able to basically serial kill.
SCHACHER: Yes, serial kill.
PINSKY: Anahita, do you have any sense something more is going on here? Is it possible these are from her daughters and she`s covering from them?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s some speculation.
PINSKY: Oh, really?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, there`s some speculation. I`ve heard those rumors that maybe these are her teen daughters` kids and she was trying to cover for them. I`ve also heard these are children she had with the man she was having an affair with. Remember, she`s technically still married with her estranged husband.
PINSKY: Hold right there. Anahita, I`m going to have you stopped right there, but I want Sam to take us through the timeline of what went down, then I will give Amy a chance to respond.
AMY PAFFRATH, HOLLYWOOD MINUTE: Thank you, lots to say.
SCHACHER: Yes, this is a little bit of a confusing timeline, let me go ahead and break it down.
Between 1996 and 2006, she lived with her husband and three daughters in the house where the babies were found. Now, this is also during the same timeline of the pregnancies and alleged murders.
Now, in 2006, this is when her now estranged husband goes to prison on drug charges. His parents move into the house --
PINSKY: Stop, stop. Wait, wait, wait, by 2006, all these babies are dead and in the garage?
SCHACHER: Yes. Stored in boxes.
ODUOLOWU: And no one smells anything?
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s another thing.
ODUOLOWU: No one smells anything, no one sees anything?
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s definitely perplexing, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: The family forcing her out, the husband is with his family giving them the house, right?
SCHACHER: Right. It`s their house and they are beginning to nudge her out, then in 2011 they finally kick her out because of the very fact that they believe she`s having this affair.
PINSKY: And she goes and lives with that guy.
SCHACHER: Nope, then she goes and lives with her mother. I said this is a confusing timeline. Then she goes and lives with her mother, then she goes and lives in the mobile home with the boyfriend that we`ve all heard about. And then, Dr. Drew, her estranged husband then gets out of prison, gets out of his halfway house. That`s when on Saturday, he went back to his parents` home and that`s where he started to unpack the garage and found that first killed baby.
PINSKY: Supposedly, Anahita, I get it.
ODUOLOWU: His parents when they kicked her out of the house they never smelled anything?
SEDAGHATFAR: Why do you keep blaming other people? Dr. Drew, I have a problem with this. But look, is anyone going to say, oh, no, everyone is innocent. Of course, people should have known, her husband should have known, people should have known, but why are we not focusing on this woman herself?
PINSKY: Anahita -- hang on, Segun. Couple things, I want to get Amy`s response, then to a phone call, because I`ve got one of Megan`s friends and most recent neighbor.
But, Amy, your thoughts first.
PAFFRATH: I`m with Segun, how did no one notice her being pregnant seven times? I`m one of seven children and I knew every time my mom was pregnant before she was even showing. You can tell. There`s differences in a woman when she`s going through those hormones and she`s with child.
So this is a whole group of people who just pulled the wool over their eyes and looked the other way. I feel someone had to have known. And no one went looking for Christmas decorations?
PINSKY: That`s what I thought.
ODUOLOWU: Amy, that was brilliant, Amy.
PINSKY: By the way, because you agree with Segun, of course, it`s brilliant.
Remember, these infants have been in the box almost 20 years, so they are going to be skeletons now, what are we talking about here? Let`s bring in someone who was Megan`s friend and recently a neighbor, Josh Flowers.
Now, Josh, we know you were shocked about this, as well. What are your thoughts on it, first of all?
JOSH FLOWERS, MEGAN`S FRIEND, NEIGHBOR (via telephone): Well, my thoughts, I`m still shocked. I had no idea that little her and how nice she was to everybody could do such a heinous crime.
PINSKY: Do you think these were her babies?
FLOWERS: As far as I know she admitted to them. Myself, I don`t know. I only knew her the year she moved into my neighbor`s house. That`s when I got to know her.
PINSKY: That`s when she was living with her boyfriend, is that correct, Josh?
FLOWERS: That is correct.
PINSKY: How`s the boyfriend doing?
FLOWERS: He`s in shock. He feels betrayed, lied to. That Saturday morning before all this unfolded, he was getting ready to go to his mother`s funeral and come home to this. So, he`s all over the place right now.
PINSKY: Do you want to ask him something?
SCHACHER: Well, as Segun said, how did nobody know? It`s almost as if Dexter, not to trivialize the whole situation, but how does somebody go and pull the wool over everybody`s eyes, but meanwhile, committing murder after murder after murder.
PINSKY: Here`s the deal: while Amy is agreeing with Segun, I`m sort in Anahita`s camp.
ODUOLOWU: Why would you do that, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: I`m just saying, seems there`s some missing information. Don`t you get that feeling, Josh?
FLOWERS: Yes, I do.
ODUOLOWU: No one should be in Anahita`s camp.
PINSKY: Well, thank you for joining us, Josh. Thank you, panel.
Imagine living next door to a garage filled with baby corpses and never having known it. The person that`s done that is here with me. I`ll talk to him in a minute.
And later, what makes someone hate so much they want to kill? We`ll have that story and more after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did this woman give birth in a house with these people multiple times? That`s a messy, messy business.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had three daughters living with her at the time. How did they not notice mom was pregnant, than mom was and pushing out babies every single year? How did they not smell the odor of a dead body in their garage?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She lived there for about 15 years, and she was a good neighbor, as far as we knew.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, we`re talking about the mom of three, well, actually ten, charged with having murdered six of her newborn, I guess there were nine.
Let`s bring in the behavior bureau: Dr. Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox" and Kirsten Haglund, former Miss America, founder of the Kirsten Haglund Foundation.
And if you want to join our conversation, tweet us right now. Sam is watching us. The tab is in her lap. There`s the iPad. You can tweet us @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau.
Wendy, this story has got -- it`s hard to imagine this, this woman everyone thought was so great, was getting pregnant repeatedly during a 10-year period and stuffing fetuses in her garage.
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: OK, can we say something else before she stuffed the fetuses into the garage? She strangled them and smothered them to death, little crying babies who are taking their very first breath in life, Dr. Drew, can you imagine? Let`s get past her for a minute and think of the loss of these children.
PINSKY: I can`t. I can`t get my head around it.
SCHACHER: How did she spare some of the children?
PINSKY: The three older ones and why suddenly did she go on the rampage?
Makes me worry, Wendy, that it`s maybe not her children or there`s something more to this story.
WALSH: Exactly. There are other things. It could be her teenaged daughters` children. It could be she was working as a midwife, maybe she was performing some weird late-term abortions in the neighborhood. Who know what her sideline is?
PINSKY: Just makes me so uncomfortable to think about.
WALSH: I want to see DNA and assure these babies were full termed.
PINSKY: Kirsten, what are your thoughts on the story?
KIRSTEN HAGLUND, FORMER MISS AMERICA: I think that the DNA test is going to be really interesting here, because you see the husband has come out today and he said I swear that these were not mine. But he was living in that house for the entire time that these pregnancies and, unfortunately, these murders were occurring.
So, you know, he worked a construction job, but all the neighbors said he was there every night. What`s his role in this? I think he`s going to be a really key part in understanding more of the questions raised. Really, it all comes down to more and more questions.
There are no answers here, and I think that husband is going to be a really interesting person to examine more thoroughly in this case. It`s not just her -- you know, it`s the husband, the estranged husband.
SCHACHER: That husband who also was charged with sodomy and rape. Let`s not forget that.
PINSKY: Yes, sexual assault.
And, Judy, Megan`s dad recently committed suicide. What do you know about that?
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Megan`s dad committed suicide a few months ago and right now Megan herself is on suicide watch. She`s having 15-minute check. She`s having a psych come and visit her 24 to 28 hours, like a revisit to look at her psych status.
So there`s some concerns she may have dealt with something that`s very, very traumatic and this isn`t something new. But I wanted to talk about the husband for a second. There was another thing that he was arrested for. And those are meth possession or maybe meth selling charges.
HO: So, Megan herself has actually -- there`s been reports she`s an alcoholic. She has an alcohol problem.
But what about this meth problem? I mean, most of the times when you`re married to somebody who`s selling meth and dealing with it --
PINSKY: You`re using.
HO: -- partner`s using, too. There`s something to that. There might be something like an methamphetamine psychosis for some of these babies. I`m not saying all of them.
PINSKY: Or maybe she was using and they became premature, they were born in who knows what kind of condition.
I want to bring in another tone call, this is Kathie Hawker. She lived next door to the house where the babies` bodies had been found.
Kathie, Megan actually babysat for your grandchildren. This must be breathtaking for you.
KATHIE HAWKER, MEGAN BABYSAT HER GRANDCHILDREN (via telephone): Yes, it`s very hard to believe, because she was a good person, to my knowledge.
PINSKY: Can you help us? We`re trying to get our head around this, we just can`t put all the pieces together. Do you know anything, have you seen anything, have you made sense of this in some way we haven`t thought about yet?
HAWKER: No, we were wondering ourselves what she was into, because she didn`t seem to be into anything. She was a good babysitter. She babysat my grandchildren. We just thought she was a very nice person. We liked her a lot and we liked her husband and her children, and we kept in contact with them.
PINSKY: Were you surprised by the meth allegations or the meth conviction, methamphetamine?
HAWKER: Well, to my knowledge, Darren wasn`t on meth. He just got kind of suckered into a deal by a coworker he had that talked him into --
PINSKY: Kathie, I don`t know about that. Judy and Wendy and I, all three of us that have dealt with this are shaking our heads, all got sucked into it.
SCHACHER: I was starting to believe her, really, not guilty?
PINSKY: Well, it`s possible, you never know. I mean, at least Anahita is not here to defend him. But I have my concerns. Thank you very much for joining us, I appreciate it, my dear.
Listen, please, interview your grandchildren and make sure they are OK and didn`t get exposed to something untoward.
Next up, a mother puts her baby on the roof of a car and then just drives away. There she is, another good mom. We`ll tell you how that one ends up.
And later, a tweet from an airline`s corporate account included a pornographic image, so what are they saying about it tonight and how does it link, so to speak, with that MH370 flight? We have some thoughts about that after this.
PINSKY: Hi, I`m back with Sam.
Our next story is a woman who accidently drives off with the baby on the roof of her car. Take a look at this.
REPORTER: Do you want to give your side of the story about what happened?
MOM: I`ll give my side of the story in the court.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say that mom Catalina Clouser drove to a friend`s house to continue partying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Upset over her boyfriend`s arrest, went to her friend`s house to smoke more weed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant had smoked marijuana prior to getting into her car and placing her infant child, 2-month-old, in a car seat on top of the roof of the car and she drove off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And didn`t realize until she got home, some 12 miles away. The baby was found by another motorist in the intersection.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We looked him over. He didn`t have any cuts, bruises, or bleeding, so that was a big relief.
PINSKY: The mother got 16 years probation, three months` time served.
Let`s bring back the behavior bureau, Judy, Wendy, and Kristen.
Kristen, do you think this is appropriate or sufficient punishment for what this woman did?
HAGLUND: You know, I think our first reaction is, oh, my goodness, you know, she needs to go to jail for a long time, but what this woman, what this girl needs, is treatment. I think with the increasing, you know, legalization of marijuana in this country, people think that marijuana isn`t addictive, it`s not that big of a deal.
But this clearly shows it is a big deal and there are countless teenagers, young people, and people of all ages all over this country who are addicted to marijuana and it causes things like this to happen. She was under the influence, that needs to be addressed and this woman needs treatment.
PINSKY: We have reenactment of what went down. Take a look at this. She puts the baby after she drives the car to a friend`s house, she puts the baby on the roof of the car, then she goes in the house to go get high, yes, then comes out and forgets the baby`s there, gets in the car, drives off, bye-bye baby.
Thank you, mommy, well done. Well done, mommy.
SCHACHER: Who forgets a baby on the top of their car? I forgot a coffee on the top of my car, but a baby? That`s insane!
PINSKY: Stoner with the pink hair, pink body, in this case.
SCHACHER: Nothing wrong with the pink hair, Dr. Drew, I`ve rocked pink hair before.
PINSKY: Oh, really? Some day we`ll show your tats on the show, too. Here`s what the judge -- yes, Wendy?
WALSH: I just want to say, I understand that she definitely needs to also have been sentenced with some drug treatment.
WALSH: But we need to talk about what she was doing putting toxins in her body, drugs, when she should have been nursing an 8-week-old child, the fact she doesn`t have a bond with the child enough to even remember that it`s on the roof of their car disturbs me and I`m not sure that this is a good house for this baby to be in.
PINSKY: Judy, you`d agree, the attachment to the baby. Not just the lack of breastfeeding, but the fact infants need a consistent sustained attachment for a long period of time, right?
HO: That`s right. So, what was going on with this baby and the mother before this -- you know, I mean, clearly, this is not the first time that something this egregious happened. It`s just the first time she was caught, but it`s something I want to point out is the fact that I`m not going to judge the fact she wants to get high, but can you get some education that maybe this is when you should call in a babysitter if you want to get high on a Saturday and leave that baby with somebody who might have of sound mind?
PINSKY: Here`s what the judge said at sentencing, quote -- no, she said this to the judge -- I just want to say I know what I did was horrible, and she apparently is pregnant again, however, we hear that she is -- Kristen, she is apparently trying to get sober. The mom said that she`s had an incident where she slipped up, done drugs a few times.
WALSH: And she`s got a baby in her body and she`s using alcohol or drugs?
PINSKY: Which is --
HAGLUND: That poor child.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Kirsten, I would think a violation of her probation, call me crazy.
HAGLUND: Of course. That`s what the mother said in e-mails apparently, but I don`t know what evidence we have of her own mother, you know, Catalina`s mother, being a great mom if this is the kind of crowd she runs with and kind of activity she`s engaging in. So, I don`t know how much we can trust her own mother. The judge said there hasn`t been any evidence consistent with her going back to using drugs.
You know, I think -- I hold to the fact that this woman needs consistent care and treatment.
PINSKY: She does. You`re right.
HAGLUND: She needs to surround herself with positive people.
HO: And the screening process of having children. Adoptive parents have to go through so much to adopt. Why do biological parents get to skip that step?
SCHACHER: Amen, Judy Ho for president.
We do have a number of tweets rolling in. I want to read one, Kayla Van Treese (ph). She writes, "She looks like a baby herself. Man, these mothers tonight are ridiculous." Exactly to Judy`s point.
PINSKY: I`m kind of getting -- I`m getting a terrible feeling telling these stories. It really is awful.
People do not understand, we cannot talk enough about the importance, we affect one another and no one affects another person more than a parent affects a child, particularly the earlier you are in development. These are plastic brains. They are exquisitely affected by the relationship with mom. Where is dad in all this, by the way?
So, if you are loaded, if you are using, you are having an impaired relationship with your child, you don`t even have to leave on the roof and not breastfeed them, the relationship is impaired. Please, I agree with Kirsten, this young lady needs to get help on behalf of the next generation, and don`t damage the child that is in utero now.
PINSKY: Next up, this guy`s accused of killing three people. What we have learned about his past may interest you.
And later, what an airline is saying tonight about a tweet that shocked Twitter verse -- shocking, shocking, I tell you, and we`ll get into it.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take a good look at Frazier Glenn Miller.
FRAZIER GLENN MILLER: I served 20 years in the United States army, two years in Vietnam, and 13 years in the Green Beret paratroopers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was Miller heading up a march in Raleigh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Active in white supremacist groups since the 1970s.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Frazier Gleen Miller urges white men to unite and, quote, take our country back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have been tracking Frazier Glenn Miller since the 1980s.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who do you hate more, the Jews or the blacks?
MILLER: Jews, a thousand times more. Compared to our Jewish problem, all other problems are mere distractions.
PINSKY: I am back with Sam. We`re digging into the background of that man, who opened fire on two Jewish facilities on Sunday. Frazier Glenn Cross, a long history with hate groups, including the KKK, white supremacists, and the Neo-Nazi and we`re now learning about his own family. Sam can you fill me in on that?
SCHACHER: Yes. No. 1, his wife suspected that he was drinking possibly at a casino the day of.
PINSKY: I thought more than just suspect; I`ve heard he had a long history of it.
SCHACHER: He does have a long history of being an alcoholic, but on this very day, he was loaded.
Now, two sons, both if them are deceased. Back in 2008, his son Jesse was killed by the police. He was in a car accident, a good Samaritan came to help him out and then he just, boom, shot the good Samaritan and the police intervened.
PINSKY: Wait a minute, he pulls over, and someone tries to help him, and this is this guy`s son and he shoots the guy that tries to help him?
SCHACHER: Shoots the guy that tries to help him, the police intervene, those are the details that we know. And then a shootout took place, killed his son.
Now his other son at age 19 back in 1998, Michael, was in a car accident. Now, don`t know the details of that, but what is interesting is that Frazier wrote a book, a self-published book, and in it he claims his son, quote, "fire-bombed a Negro crack house and went to prison for it."
SCHACHER: Lots to be proud of.
PINSKY: Yes, lots to be proud of in his family, the offspring that he`s so kindly brought into the world. Back with us, Anahita, Segun, and Amy. This guy is so disgusting, this whole situation. I`m going to bring a behavior bureau back after this little block and I`ve got some grave concerns about why we let guys like this walk around, Anahita.
PINSKY: With defense attorneys that get in the way of him being put away, because should he keep drinking and his frontal lobe doesn`t work so well, this hatred can become horrible, bizarre behavior.
SEDAGHATFAR: It has been and I`m not defending this one, Dr. Drew. This isn`t mental illness, this isn`t him being drunk, this is absolute, pure evil. This was premeditated murder, and there is no doubt in my mind, Dr. Drew, that this was a hate crime. He should be charged with a hate crime. He was a life long white supremacist, he wanted to kill Jews, he wanted to African-Americans and minorities. He targeted two Jewish centers. He basically when he got arrested yelled out, "Heil Hitler," and thought his victims were Jews, which by the way they weren`t, which shows how stupid and ignorant this man is. So if that`s not a hate crime, Dr. Drew, I don`t know what is. I`m not defending this one.
PINSKY: Amy, what do you say?
PAFFRATH: Dr. Drew, I actually -- I`m embarrassed I grew up in Missouri where this man is from.
PINSKY: Interesting. Do people talk about him, do people know about him in Missouri?
PAFFRATH: Not that I`m aware of, but I can tell you this is alive and well in very many rural pockets of the state.
PINSKY: I can`t believe it.
SEDAGHATFAR: All over the world. Anti-Semitism exists everywhere.
PISNKY: Segun, I am so naive, I`m a naive human, I really am.
ODUOLOWU: Well, here`s the thing, Dr. Drew. We can agree the man was evil, but the key thing to me was that he was a former Green Beret and fought in the Vietnam war. And of all the wars that we`ve had, those soldiers were probably treated the worst by their government and by the people when they came home. So his disenfranchisement with the society is how people like this can fall into groups and fall into disrepair.
SEDAGHATFAR: No way. No way. That`s an excuse. This is pure evil, Segun.
ODUOLOWU: You can talk over me if you`d like, but the bottom line is --
SEDAGHATFAR: You`ve made your points. I`m disagreeing with you.
PINSKY: Hold on, Anahita. Finish your point and -- Segun, I`m going to bring in a former Neo-Nazi, who`s going to talk about this, so quickly.
ODUOLOWU: There are the haves and have notes, and when you don`t have, you look at someone to blame. And yes, he says he blames Jews. And typically you look at that as a rich power structure.
SEDAGHATFAR: He`s in the majority. He`s in the majority.
PINSKY: Hold on, Anahita. Anahita, hold on.
ODUOLOWU: I`m telling you right now, there`s more to this than you think.
SEDAGHATFAR: You need a whistle.
PINSKY: Not you, too. Shh, quiet. On the phone, Frank Meeink, he`s a former Neo-Nazi and author of, "Autobiography of a Recovering Skinhead." Sir, what do you know about Frazier Glenn Cross from the standpoint of people that were in these groups?
FRANK MEEINK, FORMER NEO-NAZI (via telephone): Well, if you look back on his history, he actually was known as a snitch in the movement. He did testify against a couple people back in `88, maybe.
PINSKY: Was that to save his own skin, was he somebody who really had a feeling that he wanted to report some of these people?
MEEINK: No, he was trying -- he`s what we call an interrogation room changer. He changed once he got caught up. And once he got out, he tried to -- he (inaudible) for a long time and then came back up and in the movement, and tried to make a name for himself, but the snitch label kept following him, so now he really was trying to prove himself more and more.
PINSKY: Frank, I have a question for you. You`ve gotten yourself out of this. You`re no longer a part of all this. What do we do with these people who are walking around? My grave concern is that this guy is filled with this hate and rage, and then he`s a drinker, now his frontal lobes don`t work as he gets older, and he`s now -- and he has COPD and he`s a smoking, smoked cigarettes, has small strokes, all the things that smokers and drinkers get. And now his frontal lobes don`t work so he can`t contain his rage anymore and he acts out on it. So the fact that we allow people to walk around with hate like this, it predicts that somebody like this is going to end up behaving in ways that are extremely dangerous. What do we do with these people?
MEEINNK: Well, what we do have to do is sometimes -- you have to -- depends on the individual, but sometimes we have to show them still empathy. And I know that people are --
SEDAGHATFAR: No way.
ODUOLOWU: Show them empathy?
MEEINK: I`m not going to be part of the screaming match. I want to give you my example.
PINSKY: Frank, hang on. I`m bringing in a behavior bureau next and I`m going to have them respond to what you`re saying. Actually, this panel, you may be surprised to find out, I think they`ll be able to make something of what Frank is saying. So finish up, then I have to go.
MEEINK: Thank you. You know, sometimes we have to have empathy, even for the haters.
ODUOLOWU: How does somebody --
PINSKY: Hold on, Segun. You guys hold back. Let`s hear him out. Finish up, Frank.
MEEINK: So now when we have -- because we have to do something that`s positive, we can`t keep fighting the hate with hate. That never wins, so when you have guys like this who are going through their mental illness, but look --
SEDAGHATFAR: Stop saying that this was mental illness.
PINSKY: Hold on. I`ve got to go to break. But, Segun, this is what you were saying basically.
ODUOLOWU: No, no, I`m saying you can`t reform hate. Like, you don`t wake up the next day and say, you know what, I hate Jews and blacks, but today I actually like them. I don`t buy that. What I`m saying, this guy has seen it and is living it because of how he feels.
PINSKY: You said he was disenfranchised, which suggests he can`be reenfranchised.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s so ignorant.
ODUOLOWU: That`s so ignorant.
PINSKY: You guys, this guy`s been in the hate crimes, he`s been in the Neo-Nazi and now he`s out, and he`s giving us some info. Let`s take it in.
ODUOLOWU: So you think that I actually believe what Frank just said? That I believe Frank hated me and called me names yesterday and today he`s been rehabilitated? I don`t buy that.
SEDAGHATFAR: No, there is no rehabilitation.
PINSKY: Fine, guys. I want to bring a behavior bureau in and see what they think about what he said. Thank you guys for your opinion. We`re going to talk to a man who came face to face with a killer, as well, alleged killer.
And, later, are these kids fighting because they are mad at each other or are they just looking to go viral? Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MILLER: All the big Jews discriminate in favor of other Jews. That`s why there`s so many Jews in the mass media, for example. Jews control the mass media in this country, Jews control the United States federal government, and they control the federal reserve bank. Everybody`s afraid to step over the line called political correctness, and the Jewish media has established what that line is.
DAVID PAKMAN, RADIO HOST: And where is that line?
MILLER: Well, you don`t criticize the Jews, for one thing. So you`re not powerless, you`ve got your own damn radio show, you own 70 radio stations. Do you call that powerless?
PAKMAN: Believe me, I have no power.
MILLER: Yeah, right. That`s what Howard Stern said, and he`s a Jew liar just like you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sam and I are back. And you just heard there from the man who opened fire on two Jewish centers and killed three people. Frazier Glenn Cross is his name. He`s a Neo-Nazi, Klansman, wannabe politician even. And we will talk to the radio host who just interviewed him in a second.
But, first, bring in our behavior bureau, Judy, Wendy, Kirsten. White supremacist group that shunned him called Frazier an alcohol-driven blowhard. Wendy, this is what you and I were talking about last night, which is he has this hate, then he drinks, then his frontal lobes of his brain don`t work right and so he acts on horrible impulses.
WALSH: Exactly. So the alcohol knocks out his prefrontal cortex, which is usually the thing that would regulate his behavior, and when you talk about years and years of alcohol abuse -- but I want to mention one thing about racism. I believe there are three things that need to happen, a perfect storm, to make this kind of racist person exist. One is, it`s got to be taught. It starts in early life. Secondly, a personality type that externalizes. In other words, the outside is the problem, not me. And, thirdly, some event where they feel disenfranchised, the loss of a job, (inaudible), so they can point fingers.
PINSKY: Judy, what about what the former Klansman or former Neo-Nazi said in the last interview, that empathy could get through to these people, do you agree with him?
HO: I really don`t agree. Because with this type of extreme person, there are things they are being served with their white supremacist ideas, and those are psychological benefits and social benefits that he gets from being a white supremacist. The psychological benefits are the downward comparison. When your life is down, it`s kind of like just what Wendy said, it`s nice to say, you know what, it`s because these immigrants are the ones who took my job or at least I`m not a Jew and my life is better.
There`s a social benefit, too. There`s so much historically we`ve seen in our own government that politicians have actually been at every place in office being able to use their fear and the hatred of their constituents and they`ve been able to get there also.
PINSKY: I can`t stand this. Kirsten, I have very limited time. Do you agree with this? I mean, new thoughts to add?
HAGLUND: Well, you know, we have to have hope that people can change. I don`t know if I --
PINSKY: Do you believe that? Well, here`s where I`ve seen change. Because I`ve got to tell you, I`m glad you said that, because hope and faith are things that do change people. He`s an alcoholic, maybe if he wanted to get sober, he could have changed. I`ve only see crazy horrible personality stuff change in recovery.
I`m sorry, I have to go to the phone, because I`m tight on time. I have David Parkman, who interviewed Frazier Glenn Cross. You saw him in that time. I`m sorry, Pakman. I need to apologize, David, on a couple fronts. First of all, I know you`re Sam`s friend and she was mortified, first of all, I mispronounced your name, it`s Pakman. Secondly, we put your face up while talking to someone else and we really do apologize about it. You were the guy who interviewed this man in that opening video we saw. What were your thoughts about him?
PAKMAN (via telephone): That`s right. The interview took place on that program, was based in Northampton, Massachusetts, right down the road from your alma mater, of course.
PINSKY: Yes, indeed, thank you for that.
PAKMAN: It was a crazy interview, but the thing is, thinking back to it, I interview a lot of extremists and there was nothing other than the fact that Miller said he personally hated me, which most of my guests don`t do, that stood out in terms of an extremist. In other words, I didn`t have a sense that he, versus any other extremist I had talked to, was ready to translate his rhetoric into real world violence.
PINSKY: I think it`s the brain stuff. That`s why I think these things are so dangerous to allow people to walk around with these kinds of thoughts. You never know when they are going to develop a medical problem or a mental illness that then causes this stuff to be expressed in the most horrific ways. Kirsten, I want to give you a chance, I have a second here for you to express yourself.
HAGLUND: I just -- my heart goes out to these families who have lost loved ones, and I think we need to offer them our empathy, first and foremost. But we need to take a look at the changing demographics in this country and in Europe with massive immigration and the demographics changing, you`re going to see more and more lone wolf attacks. And we need to keep our eye out and protect our community.
PINSKY: All right, fair enough. Next up I`ve got, in school, more fighting. Students aren`t the only ones -- aren`t only hitting the books, they are hitting each other, and they seem to be doing it to go viral.
Reminder, you can find us any time on Instagram @DrDrewHLN. Be right back after this.
PINSKY: Back with Samantha. Disturbing cell phone video of brutal fights between students seem to be out of control at a Ohio high school. Warning now, this video is pretty harsh to look at. So here we go. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A female student is dragged by the hair by another student, punched repeatedly in the face. In this video, two students square off, one tying her hair back for battle as the other threatens here with a belt, a belt she doesn`t hesitate to use. He`s shooting before the first punch. It begins with a body slam, wrestling on the ground as other students cheer. Finally, a security guard arrives and tries to pull the combatants apart. In the background, a student yells out where to find the video on Instagram.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with us, Judy, Anahita, and joining us now, comedian Adam Ray. I want to ask a question, I`ll start with Adam since you`re a newcomer to the panel. Are we just seeing more videos because there`s more cameras out there, or is there more violence in high schools?
ADAM RAY, ADAMRAYTV.COM: I think it`s a little bit of both, Drew. I think, first of all, we live in an age where people are obsessed with capturing live moments as they are happening.
PINSKY: Listen, that`s what we heard in the video, they`re saying, make sure you put it up on YouTube. Are you kidding?
SCHACHER: And the fighters want the notoriety.
SEDAGHATFAR: They do. Dr. Drew, I totally -- I blame social media for a lot of this bad behavior that we`re seeing with teens, because it seems they are engaging in these types of fights and purposely recording them just to post it on YouTube or Instagram.
PINSKY: Judy, do you agree?
HO: I definitely think that we`ve become more of a voyeuristic society and we`ve seen that in a lot of stories, but I also think that the teachers and the school districts have been very slow to catch up to the fact that social media is really such a huge factor now.
PINSKY: Well, it`s hard to keep pace with this. But, Adam, I`ve got less than a minute, Adam. You were the object of bullying when you were a kid. People might not realize looking at you now, but you were a fat kid.
RAY: Yes, totally, totally.
SCHACHER: Oh, nice, Drew.
PINSKY: That`s how he identified himself.
RAY: I think the teachers need to be stepping in. And not all the teachers, but like --
PINSKY: You were the object of a lot of bullying. Did you get into fights, was it it the same as we`re seeing now, where we`re just watching it now?
RAY: No, I kind of took a lot of -- I was too concerned with how many Pop Tarts I could stuff in my mouth. Quite honestly, if these teachers would step in -- not all the teachers but if 75 your old (ph) Mrs. Witherspoon got in the middle, all the fights would stop because nobody wants to knock her to the ground and spill her almonds, you know?
PINSKY: All right, next up, got to go. Next up, I`ve got a tweet everyone is talking about, an airline, well, let`s say the airline was caught with its pants down. And we`re using a lot of innuendo to explain what this is, but we`re going to get into it after this.
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Judy, Anahita and Adam, and we`re talking about a Twitter gaffe. U.S. Airways apologized after accidentally tweeting a pornographic picture in response to a customer complaint. Sam, it`s not good. Sam, tell me about this.
SCHACHER: Oh, good. So you`re going to have me tell you about this. Where`s Mike Catherwood when you need him?
PINSKY: I brought Adam. He`ll back you up a little bit maybe.
RAY: I`ve only seen two pictures in my lifetime. Just didn`t make it to the Internet.
SCHACHER: All right. This is a very graphic photo. May not be graphic in Mike Catherwood`s terms, but basically, you have a woman, and first of all, let me paint the picture that this image originally came from German amateur porn. OK?
PINSKY: So did somebody hacked U.S. Airways and put this thing in?
SCHACHER: Somebody tweeted it to U.S. Airways. That`s what first happened.
RAY: Might have been a promotional tactic.
SCHACHER: Maybe, maybe. That is in speculation. But somebody first went ahead and tweeted this image to U.S. Airways. They flagged it, screencaptured it, and that accidentally got tweeted to one of their disgruntled passengers.
PINSKY: And we can`t show the image, because it is a pornographic image. You can go ahead and describe it.
SCHACHER: I will go ahead and describe it.
PINSKY: I know you`re a delicate flower.
SCHACHER: I am a delicate flower, yes, not really. OK, so basically this woman, and keep in mind this is coming from German amateur porn. This woman is in a dimly lit bedroom and she`s seemingly, well, she`s lying down.
PINSKY: She`s spread out.
SCHACHER: Her legs are high up in the air, spread out. Very comfortable.
PINSKY: Akimbo, akimbo as you might say.
SCHACHER: I don`t know what akimbo is, Dr. Drew. Learning a lot about you. And she`s taking an airplane toy --
PINSKY: Oh, she`s doing it?
SCHACHER: And inserting it into her hooha.
PINSKY: Got it, got it. So, there`s been a lot of complaints and comments on Twitter. But some of them are actually kind of funny, right?
SCHACHER: Most people are making fun of this. I have a couple tweets here. For example, CNN spent one month straight speculating about the plane but they never once thought to look there. #USAirways
PINSKY: There you go. Wait a minute, Judy, you`re the one laughing the most heartily at this. Go ahead, Judy, have at it. What do you make of this?
HO: I`m sorry, you know what, I really think that in the end U.S. Airways is actually going to get more customers from this, because any attention is good attention. This is taking our mind off the more serious topics that we`re dealing with right now.
PINSKY: It`s been a rough night. Anahita, your thoughts.
SEDAGHATFAR: I wish I never saw this picture and I`m so traumatized, Dr. Drew.
SCHACHER: Oh Anahita, come on.
PINSKY: Oh stop.
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s disgusting. But I don`t agree that is all publicity is good publicity because I can`t imagine this is good for the airline. I mean, this isn`t the type of publicity they want.
PINSKY: Did they have any liability in this?
SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think there was any liability, nobody was damaged or injured besides me, I guess. I`m emotionally traumatized.
HO: You can sue them, Anahita. You can sue them.
PINSKY: Ooh money for the attorney, go Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think this was, like, part of the promotional, like, scheme or whatever. I think this was an accident.
PINSKY: Adam, make sense of this one for me, please.
RAY: Yes, I think we`re coming down too hard on her. I think maybe she was trying to be a flight attendant for U.S. Airways, and she`s like how can I show my level of commitment other than just getting the safety announcements correct? I`m going to put a plane inside my hooha and then people will be like, man, she lives and breathes U.S. Airways all the time.
SCHACHER: I guess so.
PINSKY: I`m just saying, all the tweets about black boxes and looking for the plane. There`s -- use your imagination to where these people took these. I`m surprised Adam haven`t gone there.
RAY: I have, it just hasn`t made it to the Internet.
PINSKY: You`re a newcomer. You`re afraid to bring it to air.
RAY: I could show a picture right now, first live look at this.
PINSKY: No, it`s all good. Let me say, I`m going to show you U.S. Airways did apologize for the Twitter mishap, saying, quote, "We apologize for an inappropriate image recently shared as a link in one of our responses. We have removed the tweet and are investigating."
SCHACHER: An hour later, FYI.
PINSKY: In the meantime, those like us have taken out after them and made fun of the whole thing.
Thank you, guys, thank you for joining us tonight. It`s been a very interesting show with a lot of difficult material. Thanks for being here.
SCHACHER: Ups and downs.
PINSKY: Yes, I`m glad there was somebody in the room with me for this one. This was tough.
"FORENSIC FILES" is next. Tonight a college student vanishes without a trace. What does a fire, and this fire is now hundreds of miles away, what does this fire have to do with the disappearance? "FORENSIC FILES" starts right now.