Return to Transcripts main page


Mouthy Mom`s Ex-Husband Testifies about Her Behavior; Police Officer`s Girlfriend Calls Shooting an Accident; Beyonce`s Big Family Feud

Aired May 13, 2014 - 19:00:00   ET


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the real Raymond Winfield. It was all about him. He was just cold-blooded.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Trending tonight. More shocking developments in the big brawl between Jay-Z and Beyonce`s little sister, Solange. We`re going to tell you what may have made Solange so fighting mad.

Plus, the live-in girlfriend of a dead cop claims he accidentally shot and killed himself when they were tussling. So why on earth did she go on the run, lawyer up and still to this moment refuses to talk to cops?

And Dean McDermott spills his guts about why he cheated, blaming his wife, Tori Spelling. You won`t believe what the couple said about their sex life.

But first, a jaw-dropping day in the Mouthy Mom courtroom, as killer mom, Julie Schenecker`s, now ex-husband takes the stand, testifying his two teenage kids begged him to protect them from their own mother. The very soccer mom who eventually executed them. Did these kids sense what was coming?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live. Thanks for joining me.


COL. PARKER SCHENECKER, FATHER OF VICTIMS: They`ve asked for protection from their mother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sane people don`t shoot and kill their children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She raises the gun up. Bam! Shoots her in the back of the head.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her daughter and her son.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened yesterday?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calyx, she gets it first, bam, the sassy mouth as the defendant calls it. You may think she looks crazy.

What she did and why she did it.

"Calyx drove me to drink."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much alcohol did you have about?

J. SCHENECKER: Three or four glasses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The children are dead at the hands of their own mother.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Julie Schenecker is charged with two counts of first- degree murder. Cops say she planned the murder of her own two gorgeous teenaged children, 13-year-old Beau and 16-year-old Calyx, buying a gun and then shooting them both in the head and then additionally in the mouth because they were, quote, too mouthy and sassy.

Well, today, Julie`s now ex-husband, Parker Schenecker, testified about how he tried to protect his kids from this monster mom who would eventually shoot them. Listen to him read an e-mail that he wrote to his wife just a couple of months before she killed their kids.


P. SCHENECKER: "We will forge a way ahead with or without your participation. The kids are saying that there`s not much change in you, and although I try hard to temper their expectations" -- in parentheses -- "(as no one can completely change overnight or in a two-week period)" -- closed parentheses -- "they expected that you`d at least be participative. What they do see is their mom in bed all day, and in their mind, she`s choosing to do that instead of being involved in their lives. It`s cut and dry with them. The kids have asked me to preclude you from driving them anymore. The kids are asking this of me because they still don`t feel safe with you driving. Not because they`re mad at you. I MUST" -- in all caps -- "protect them. They are telling me that they feel unsafe. There is no way in the world that I can just let this go. They`ve asked their father for protection." In parentheses, "(The hard part of this, is that they have asked for protection from their mother)" -- closed parentheses.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, the defense argues the stay-at-home soccer mom is insane and therefore not responsible for this evil, horrible deed. But does this e-mail reveal a rational motive for murder? Did she feel betrayed by her kids for complaining about her?

Plus, we learned she was furious at her husband for sending her to rehab and thought he`d divorce her. Is this simply a woman who feels double crossed by her kids and her husband and wants revenge?

What do you think? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

We have a feisty Lion`s Den debate panel ready to hash it out. But first straight out to HLN producer Alexis Weed. Alexis, you were in court today. There is breaking news to report. Bring us up to date.

ALEXIS WEED, HLN PRODUCER: Jane, huge news. The defense rested their case today, and it was a particularly emotional day. We had Parker Schenecker on the stand for most of today. He was the second-to-last witness. And Parker Schenecker detailed the entire relationship that he had with Julie Schenecker.

And you`ve got to ask -- you`ve got to wonder, how many points the defense really scored by putting him up on the stand. It looked as if Julie Schenecker really emerged as someone who was really capable of lying in order to avoid paying for -- paying consequences of her actions.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, he has been described, Alexis, as unemotional. He is a military man. And indeed, he was serving our country when his wife was back in Florida killing their kids. Did you sense any kind of emotion today? In other words, he has control over his emotions. But did you sense a point where it just looked like he couldn`t keep it contained anymore, despite being a former colonel, a retired colonel?

WEED: Well, I`ll tell you, the emotions came through the e-mails that were read, that were between Parker Schenecker and his wife before the killings. The e-mail showed that Parker Schenecker was making great efforts in order to try and save the marriage, save their family, and really, outlined these e-mails that he was able to read portions of in court showed that he was seeking treatment. He wanted family counseling. He was trying to make the family better.

So despite how stoic he might be on the stand and how reserved he might be, he really was able to read through these e-mails and show what kind of guy he was, what kind of family guy he was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. We`ve got some of the e-mails right now that we`re going to tell you about. In the months leading up to the killings, Julie`s behavior was getting more and more out of control. We`ve already heard testimony that she had a car accident, allegedly while under the influence. She slapped her daughter, Calyx, and cops actually showed up, but they didn`t go through an arrest. I wish they had had.

Julie Schenecker`s husband, Parker, now divorced, testified that he was at his wits end, and he describes as you just heard, an e-mail he sent to his wife`s family. Listen.


P. SCHENECKER: And I had said that -- I think I asked, "Have any of you ever lived with a 50-year-old who has the judgment of a 10-year-old?"

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your perception at that time is she`s low- functioning.

P. SCHENECKER: That was my perception, yes, ma`am.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Parker is trying to clean up his wife`s messes. But -- and I want to throw this to Dr. Judy Ho, forensic psychologist. Is that another way of saying, despite his good intentions, he`s enabling his wife?

I want to go back out to the Lion`s Den. Could Parker have been in a codependent relationship with Julie, and thereby providing some kind of safety net that allowed her to continue to deteriorate and get worse and worse?

DR. JUDY HO, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s a great question, Jane. I think loved ones of people who are mentally ill often deal with this discrepancy. So how do they provide the support that their loved one needs but not go overboard and actually end up enabling their illness so they never get better. But do you really walk away from that situation? Would that actually be solving the problem or are you just leaving them out to dry?

I think Parker has really had a really difficult time with this, as you can tell, with his e-mails. He`s trying to put the boundaries down, but then he can`t, because she`s so needy. And then he tries to take things away from her, because she can`t be responsible for them. But then he`s not really putting all the support in place so that he`s not the one having to solve her mental illness problems.

And so I think that`s where things started to crumble, is because he started to deny how sick she actually was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sick or just a really bad person? I want to go to Anna Quincoces, star of "Real Housewives of Miami," also an attorney.

Anna, the big debate of this entire trial is, is she, A, just a drug addict and an alcoholic? And we`ll document that in a second. She had a huge drinking and -- problem and also abused prescription drugs.

Or is she completely insane, and therefore not responsible at all? Or behind door No. 3, is she just an evil person who had a hatred of her kids, and there is evil in this world?

ANA QUINCOCES, REALITY TV STAR, "REAL HOUSEWIVES OF MIAMI": I`m going to say a little bit of both. I think that, you know, they define insanity -- and an insanity defense is not as commonly used as people think it is. It`s really more a battle of the experts than anything else.

I think you can be evil and insane. I think that it`s hard not to know right from wrong when you`re putting a gun in your child`s mouth. But the impetus to pull the trigger, you have to be pretty messed up to do that. So I think there`s a little bit of both.

As far as what the -- and I want to make a point about what the other guest was saying about Parker. And I think the fact that Parker was a military man, there is this sense -- my brother is in the military. And a colonel. You know, that Parker was. This whole sense of doing the right thing and standing by the family, you know, I don`t believe that he was planning to divorce her, necessarily. I believe that he was trying to do right by his children, right by his wife, and basically suck it up, even though she was either crazy, evil or combination of the two. And, you know, I think that`s -- that`s what we got from today`s testimony.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Dmitri Lucas, let me jump in with this, pop culture expert. Because as a person in recovery from alcoholism with 19 years of sobriety, I do know a lot about enabling.

In other words, somebody who is there, like you said, this good guy, this colonel, there to help his wife, no matter what. Isn`t that classic codependency? Doesn`t that enable the person to really get out of control, because they`ve got that invisible safety net that`s going to catch them, no matter what?

Perhaps if he had said, "Honey, you`re on your own. I`m divorcing you. I don`t care if you`re a nut job, a boozer, a drugger, bipolar or what, I`m out of here." She might have been off somewhere in some gutter somewhere, but these kids wouldn`t be dead.

DEMETRIA LUCAS, POP CULTURE EXPERT: Well, I think if he totally bailed on the situation and taken responsibility for the children, would they probably be here now? Absolutely.

But I think we`re looking at this in hindsight, which is always 20/20. But I think in the moment, you`re talking about his wife; you`re talking about the mother of his children. He wants to make the best decision possible. I think he probably did what he felt was best at the time. I don`t think, by any means, he meant to be an enabler to the situation.


DHANI JONES, HOST, SPIKE TV`S "PLAYBOOK 360": He did what anything`s possible? He said he was at his wits end. What do you think the kids were at? I mean, this woman is crazy! Who in their right mind would ever take a gun to their own children? You know? She was -- she was -- who also -- might also be said to say she`s evil, she`s crazy, and the alcohol and the rest of the things that she took enabled her to be even that much more sinister, and that much more crazy. I mean, when I sit and look at it, I mean...


JONES: No. Just the fact that the way that I look at it, she`s crazy. And she`s evil. Point blank, she needs to go away for -- for forever.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I understand what you`re saying. Yes. That`s what one of the defense psychologists said. Anybody who kills their kid has to be crazy. So we`re going to give everybody who kills their kid a pass? Saying you can`t do something like that unless you`re crazy?

What about a cousin? If you kill your cousin, do you have to be crazy? What about a distant relative? Where does it end WHEN we open that Pandora`s box and say, "Oh, you have to be crazy to kill your kids"?

Why should this woman get a pass and spend the rest of her life in a psychiatric hospital instead of behind a prison wall?

We`re just getting started. And you won`t believe what this nightmare of a soccer mom was doing on the gambling front, destroying her family`s finances as her husband was serving overseas.

Later, Twitter exploding over this Jay-Z attack in an elevator by Beyonce`s little sister. Is this just the tip of the iceberg in a very nasty family feud?

But next, more from this huge day in the so-called "Shaky Mom" trial.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you active in her medical treatment?

P. SCHENECKER: No, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Were you aware of any kind of medications that she was taking?

P. SCHENECKER: Yes, ma`am, I knew she was taking some meds. But I did not monitor them.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You drink any alcohol or anything last night?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He you did? How much alcohol did you have about?

J. SCHENECKER: Three or four glasses.


J. SCHENECKER: Beer. And then I switched to wine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Three or four glasses of beer and wine. And that was last night at what time?

J. SCHENECKER: I can`t remember.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Later in the evening, or early in the evening?



J. SCHENECKER: After dinner.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Today a defense psychologist diagnosed Julie Schenecker as having bipolar, with psychotic features. And she was taking a lot of meds. You can see the many meds she was taking. Some of them heroin-like strength. Oxycodone, hydrocodone.

And she was also drinking, which they all say on the label don`t drink. And she was abusing alcohol like crazy at the same time.

Now, is she not to be held responsible for her abuse of alcohol and drugs, because she has this diagnosis, when we know that many people with bipolar lead functional lives and actually take their meds correctly?

So let`s go on to the phone lines. Debbie, New York. What do you have to say, Debbie in New York?

CALLER: hi, Jane.


CALLER: Jane, I`m going put some of the blame and the onus on the father, because I believe that he knew these tendencies were going on for a long time. I don`t know what he thought he was going to do from afar. And I believe she murdered those children to get back at him, because that divorce was in the works before these children were killed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Sierra Elizabeth, attorney, he testified that he was not planning to divorce her. But I think she did the math. He told her, "Look, I`m not going to put up with your drinking and drugging. You`re going to rehab."

She got out of rehab, proceeded to -- it didn`t take, let`s put it that way -- lock herself in a room, drink and drug. so of course she`s doing the math, saying, "He`s going to divorce me." I believe she chose alcohol and drugs over her family.

SIERRA ELIZABETH, ATTORNEY: Jane, I have to respectfully disagree. I think, as you know, alcoholism is a disease, and it`s very hard to get over.

And I think this husband did what he was supposed to do. I mean, he put her in rehab. He wrote letters to her family. And do you think he really thought that this woman was going to kill their children? I mean, there`s a difference between somebody saying that they`re going to commit suicide or harm themselves or drink a lot of alcohol, but to kill the children that you birthed? I mean, I think that`s a separate step.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t think anybody can predict that, except the kids did, Dhani. Go ahead.

JONES: Yes, but at -- but at the same time, he could have took temporary leave from his job to come home and handle the business appropriately. You know, he knew some of the stuff going on.

ELIZABETH: He was an absentee husband.

JONES: And he should have -- he should have gone down the road and made sure that she stayed in a mental health rehabilitation center in order to get her mind right. Because in the end, the whole family was completely destroyed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And, you know, one of the problems is, you cannot necessarily stick somebody in an involuntary hold, unless they meet certain thresholds. How this woman couldn`t, I don`t understand.

I`ve got to get to the gambling quickly. Julie...

JONES: She reached -- she reached all the thresholds.


JONES: She was drinking. She was doing drugs. She was spending the family`s money.


JONES; I mean, she was all over the place.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, she was gambling like crazy, spending thousands and thousands of dollars. He sent her to rehab. She stayed for 21 days, and Anna Quincoces, attorney, star of "Real Housewives of Miami," she was furious, absolutely furious with him that he didn`t take her out of rehab after four or five days. What do you make of that?

QUINCOCES: Well, I think that there is definitely an element here of her getting back at the husband. Clearly, the husband wasn`t around that much.

I do have to agree with the caller, that there is a little bit of responsibility that should be on his shoulders. Letting his mom leave because she said that she would get out of bed when his mom left. When she -- he must have known there were suicide attempts. There was constant talk of suicide. She had already been diagnosed with illnesses. She was on medication. He knew. He has to have known that he couldn`t trust this woman to consistently take her medication.

Of course, he didn`t think that his children would die. But that he should have been a little bit more careful, yes.

And was there an element there that she was trying to get back at him? Absolutely. I think he was neglectful. Did he deserve for his children to die? Of course not.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this...

QUINCOCES: I`m not 100 percent with whether or not the defense is going to stick here. There is an element of evil, and there is an element that she knew what she was doing. But the husband should have known better.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s already paid the worst possible price one could ever pay. The loss of his own two children at the hands of his then-wife.

Nancy Grace, so much more on the Julie Schenecker trial tonight, 8 Eastern, right here. HLN, just a couple minutes.

Meanwhile, a Miami cop found shot to death, and his live-in girlfriend says, "Well, we were tussling and the gun just went off.: But then she goes off. So was this self-defense? Or was this murder?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police car belonging to Miami police officer Carl Patrick was driven away from his house Monday afternoon, as the investigation into his shooting death continues, with a new twist emerging. The attorney for Patrick`s girlfriend, Tiniko Thompson, said that his client and Patrick fought on Friday afternoon. But that one thing is clear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not shoot the officer.





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I noticed that the police were jimmying the police car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The officer, Carl Patrick, was shot and killed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next thing you know, police started showing up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think all of us are still in shock.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And every time I get sick, he`s there for me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Started becoming a little overwhelming.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police look into what exactly happened inside Patrick`s home, and who pulled the trigger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never thought anybody could do something like that to my son.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a veteran police officer`s death inside his home is shrouded in mystery after a deadly shot rang out. His live-in girlfriend went on the run for two days. She has now resurfaced, lawyered up and claims her boyfriend was physically abusive. Of course, he`s dead; he can`t speak for himself.

She says he accidentally shot himself as they fought over his gun. Does her story add up? Police don`t know, because she`s refusing to talk to them.

Officer Carl Patrick`s body lay inside his Miami area apartment for two days before he was discovered. Live-in girlfriend, Tiniko Thompson said, quote, "He fell, he slipped," and "We were tussling with the gun and it went pow! That`s it."

She says, well, she changed out of her nightgown, washed off the blood and then in fear drove around for 48 hours, even sleeping in the car.

Cops won`t tell us where Patrick was shot, but he was reportedly hit in the leg and bled to death after being hit in the leg.

Now, if he had physically abused his girlfriend as she claims and the shooting went down as she says, why did she flee? And here`s the big question. Had she stayed and called 911, could his life have been saved?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a struggle, and the gun went off during the struggle. But he had his finger on the trigger. She did not.

Law enforcement was not spoken to my client at all.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: In the next breath, the attorney says his client acted in self-defense. Well, which is it? Did she shoot him in self-defense, or did the officer accidentally shoot himself?

Lion`s Den, and I`ll start with Dhani Jones, host of "Playbook 360" on Spike TV. Did this attorney slip up when he said self-defense? Or maybe it`s a sign there`s a whole lot more to the story that his client is revealing.

JONES: First of all, I have to say, you`re going on the run for two days, 48 hours, sleeping in your car, trying to get your story straight. She`s absolutely, you know, guilty regardless.

If she would have stayed in the house, and even if he had slipped up and accidentally pulled the trigger as she might have accidentally pulled the trigger. And he didn`t bleed out but the paramedics showed up and he went to the hospital, well, maybe he would have been able to talk about exactly what did happen.

Now half of her stories are all sealed up, and they`re going to have a tough case ahead of them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL; Well, Miami police are not calling the girlfriend a suspect. They`re being very tight-lipped about the crime scene, the condition of his body. But at least one of his colleagues is publicly calling, quote, B.S., on the girlfriend`s story. Listen.


SGT. JAVIER ORTIZ, POLICE UNION PRESIDENT: I knew Carl personally. I know he`s not going to pull a firearm on himself. And when it comes to the evidence, it`s going to prove that what she is stating is a bald-faced lie.

If she really feels that this was self-defense, the police is open 24 hours a day and she could have come at any time to explain her side of the story.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s right, Demetria Lucas, pop culture expert. Her attorney says he has photos of injuries she got from her boyfriend: a cut on the chin, what looks like some bruising. But her credibility is under fire because of what she did, fleeing for 48 hours. and she`s still not talking to police.

LUCAS: Yes, Jane. It doesn`t make any sense. Like, I totally get, LIKE, if you were in a scuffle. She`s got the bruises. She`s got something on her chin, something on her arm. So clearly, she was in some sort of altercation.

But if that was the case, if there`s a domestic violence situation, if the gun does go off, whether he shot himself, whether she pulled the trigger, whoever pulled the trigger, if he`s shot in the leg, why not call the police? Like why not call an ambulance to come take her care of him? The fight is done. It just doesn`t make any sense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She says, well, because her boyfriend was a cop, she was afraid that the cops responding would be angry and maybe she would end up losing her own life. I don`t know if I buy it.

LUCAS: Jane, that doesn`t make...

ELIZABETH: Don`t buy that. Don`t buy that. One of the most important pieces of this story is that this woman is a public service aide to police officers. She works with police officers day in and day out. She knows how criminal investigations work. And that`s why she needed to buy time. She needed to buy time to clean herself off, to make sure that he was dead, and to come up with her cover story.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, wait a second -- yes. I want to go...

JONES: At the same time, she would have known some of those officers, as well, so that she might have actually had some relationships with the officer not to be so afraid that they might do something to her when they show up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. There`s so many questions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unless she did something wrong.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: There are so many questions, but listen, for one second. I want to go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, who`s a famed forensic scientist. And it`s a very key question.

Dr. Kobi, if indeed he had been shot in the leg and she flees -- first of all, if you`re shot in the leg, couldn`t you drag yourself to a phone to say, "Hey, 911?"

B, if she fled and he wasn`t dead yet, it raises the possibility that, had she stayed and called 911, he might be alive today in the hospital recovering.

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST (via phone): Well, I think it depends on what happened, where that bullet ended up in the leg. The major artery that feeds the leg is the femoral artery. And if that bullet severed that artery, Mr. Patrick could have been dead in a matter of minutes.

The body has about five liters of blood. When you lose about half of that to two-thirds of that, death follows very quickly. The brain will die in a matter of three to five minutes without oxygen.

So you need to call 911 almost immediately.

On the other hand, if that bullet did not hit the femoral artery, if it hit the tissue, then, you know, death could have been five to six hours later. And certainly, he could have survived if somebody had called 911.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, so we won`t know until we get all the information on the autopsy and also until cops have a chance to fully process the crime scene and also grill her.

We`re going to stay on top of this. This man was a police officer for 25 years. And he is not here to speak for himself and defend himself. But something doesn`t smell right, because everybody says this man was absolutely straight-up, well-respected, well-regarded and there is no hint that he ever had any trouble in the past that we can find.

Now, this is the elevator fight that is just burning up Twitter and Facebook and -- everything else.

Why did Beyonce`s little sister go off and attack -- physically attack Jay- Z? We`ve got new information on the other side.





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m shocked to see this happen.

JAY-Z, MUSICIAN: Either love me or leave me alone.

SETH MYERS, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": -- which brings Jay-Z`s total to 100 problems.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, we`ve got breaking news we`re going to tell you about in a second. Because the Twitter-verse is going crazy over this now infamous elevator fight between hip-hop mogul Jay-Z and Beyonce`s little sis, Solange. Everyone dying to know what on earth did the rapper say to trigger this vicious attack.

And tonight we`re going to tell you why Kim Kardashian`s name has been dragged into this family feud -- alleged. We covered this story when it broke and it`s trending bigger -- much bigger today. This unbelievable surveillance video recorded in the elevator at the Standard Hotel where Met Gala A-Listers gathered for an after party.

TMZ got the bid. It appears to show Beyonce`s sister, Solange violently punching and kicking at her famous rich brother-in-law, Jay-Z. Watch as the elevator door closes. Solange starts hitting and kicking Jay-Z. Her purse goes flying. Jay-Z grabs her foot to stop the attack while a bodyguard restrains her and hits the emergency stop button, trying to keep the doors closed.

Now, here is Beyonce and Jay-Z all smiles courtside at the Mets basketball game just hours after the surveillance video leaked. We`re going to show you that in a second. You`ll see them sitting courtside. Now the "Hollywood Reporter" says Solange has deleted nearly all photos of her sister, Beyonce, from Instagram. Could there be some kind of long- simmering sibling resentment rivalry? Wow.

I want to go straight out to Mike Walters, news manager at TMZ. You`ve got breaking news. What do you got?

MIKE WALTERS, NEWS MANAGER, TMZ: Well, Jane, I agree with you. You would think that whatever happened in that elevator is now going to be a gigantic problem where this family is torn apart.

But I can tell you, we just published a story on that Jay-Z and Solange were together today. Literally 30 minutes ago, these two were together in a jewelry store in New York, looking at women`s jewelry. We`re not sure if they were there looking for something for her, for Beyonce. They didn`t buy anything. They didn`t even try anything on. They stood there, they were quiet. They didn`t say much to each other, but they were looking at jewelry.

So whatever they were doing together today makes me obviously believe that this fight that happened, although very violent and unbelievable, was -- whatever problem it was, wasn`t something --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait Mike -- I`ve got to ask you this question. You know, we all know about PR moves that stars make to send a message. Could this be a big PR stunt to try to quiet this all down? You`re saying Jay-Z and Solange, the one who was kicking him, they`re shopping for jewelry together?

WALTERS: It absolutely could be a PR stunt. I agree with you. The issue is, so far I haven`t seen any photographs of them together there. Usually in this situation, Jane, we have done this together many years -- you would see a big nice glossy photo of them getting out of the car together, smiling. It is breaking news, it just happened, so it`s possible you will see that photo by tomorrow`s show. But right now, I don`t see any gigantic press release or photograph that was set up to show that. So for now -- I`m not sure if it`s actually publicity or just real life.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. What do you make of it, Demetria Lucas, pop culture expert? You would know.

DEMETRIA LUCAS, POP CULTURE EXPERT: You know, Jane, I think that this is a family drama. Family issues run very deep. They`re multilayered, and sometimes you run high, sometimes you run very low. I think what you see in that elevator is a very low family moment. But, you know, Jay-Z has been in Solange`s life via her sister for approximately, what, 12, 13, 14 years now? There is a lot of emotion there. Clearly that was a bad night. I would imagine that they`re leaving a party, there may have been some liquor involved.


LUCAS: Bad family moment. But it does happen sometimes. And it seems that they are hopefully -- let`s say hopefully -- hopefully they have patched up those issues and they`re doing better as a family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, you know it`s a big story when the "New York Post" and "The Daily News" -- I don`t know if you could see this. They both have the exact same headline. This rarely happens, and the same photo. And it`s Cray-Z, Cray-Z.

QUINCOCES: I have a theory.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, go ahead.

QUINCOCES: I have my theory. First, I think it`s very clear from the video that Solange was kind of speaking on behalf of Beyonce, I think. Beyonce has that very southern stand by your man, never let him see you sweat attitude, and then she goes ahead and does her little passive aggressive lyrics on songs, like, you know, very subtle. Like calling an entire song "Resentment".

I think that the fact that she did not for one second seem -- like she knew it was going to happen. She didn`t seem afraid that Solange would get hurt, that Jay-Z would get hurt, she just stood there, she fixed the train of her dress. It`s very, very telling to me that it was something that Beyonce was not willing to stand up for herself, that Solange had finally had it.


LUCAS: I don`t know about that.


HO: I have to agree -- I have to agree with Chelsea Handler on this one where she says that blood is thicker than penis.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Dr. Judy, quickly, because I want to -- let me do this first. Let me do this first. We drag up some extraordinary footage of Solange six years ago right after Beyonce married Jay-Z, who, by the way, is worth over $500 million. Ok? Watch as Solange -- and Beyonce -- she is rich herself. Watch as Solange explodes in anger when a TV anchor dares to reference her super-famous sister and brother-in-law in the introduction to her. Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Solange, good morning. And thanks a lot for joining us.

SOLANGE, SINGER: Good morning. I have to say that was not a very professional introduction before. Please don`t tie me into family and my brother-in-law`s establishment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ok, well, we do apologize.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know if we talked about your brother-in-law`s establishment. You`re talking about with TMZ?

SOLANGE: No, no. I`m talking about just a few minutes ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That wasn`t live, Solange. That wasn`t on TV.




VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. Dhani Jones --

HO: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- that to me says jealous, jealous, jealous, D-lister syndrome.


LUCAS: Oh, wow.

JONES: Absolutely. That`s the younger sister coming out saying, look, don`t talk about me -- don`t talk about my sister. If you want to talk to me, you want to talk to me. I mean at the same time, people are going to paint the picture about Solange and some of the issues that she`s had in the past. And that`s definitely one of them.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t think you can indict her for an interview.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead, Dr. Judy.

HO: Well, thank you for showing that video, Jane. Because that just shows exactly what I think is going on here behind the scenes. She has been trying so hard to make herself separate from the identity of her sister. Now her really famous sister married this really, really famous rapper, talent. He`s another piece of this story is that there is that underlying resentment. And Solange has been dealing with this for a long time.

She has acted out before. This is just one of the first times that we have seen her in an aggressive way, but there has been other reports of her being a little bit unstable in this way whenever her sister and Jay-Z are being mentioned. And so I think she is --


JONES: Yes, but she was kicking him.

HO: -- her own identity which she never achieved because her sister is Beyonce.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. You know what -- we promised our viewers --


JONES: With her stilettos.

HO: I don`t understand why Jay-Z is to blame. She has her own record label. She`s with EMI.

LUCAS: Oh he`s not to blame.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen. I`ve got to give our viewers the Kim Kardashian angle here. All right? According to the "New York Post" Solange was like a pressure cooker waiting to explode at the Met Gala after party. Sources claim Solange yelled at Kim Kardashian`s best friend, fashion designer, Rachel Roy, earlier in the night, and that was before the fight.

So, you know, there were also reports she was drinking. That certainly adds to it, that she was drunk and belligerent. I have no independent confirmation. That`s what it says in "The Post" and again, she was a pressure cooker. Yes, I`ve got to say, it almost seems like she just can`t handle how darn successful her sister is, and then --

LUCAS: Whoa.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I mean -- and then her sister`s husband is even -- I mean he`s a -- practically a billionaire. She is on the cover of "Time".

HO: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I just don`t think she can handle it.


LUCAS: You know that`s wild speculation Jane. That`s wild. You can`t make that accusation when there`s no -- you can`t hear anything on the tape. You don`t know what they`re fighting about. So you`re projecting on to Solange like the very classic sibling rivalry. But Solange had the display that one interview long ago doesn`t mean that that`s what Solange`s issue is. It very well could be another issue in the family.

JONES: There is stuff written down in the lyrics about how Solange feels.

LUCAS: I`m sorry, what lyrics are those?

JONES: The stuff written in lyrics. The stuff written in lyrics about how Solange feels, saying that --

HO: If you listen to her music.

JONES: "I`m not my sister".


LUCAS: Ok. So she`s not her sister. That doesn`t mean because she wants her own identity doesn`t mean she is jealous of Beyonce. I don`t know any person who doesn`t want their own individual sense of self from someone else.

HO: Listen, we can`t hear -- but the identity issue --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on, one at a time.


JONES: -- throwing her stilettos around and Beyonce to stand by?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think this is what I think. Alcohol, ok? Jealousy. A lot of pressure. The Met Gala is one of the most prestigious social events of the season. I mean that`s -- that`s a huge combo.

And guess what? We`re going to stay with this on the other side, because we`ve got more information coming in and the phone lines are blowing up. Stay right there.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is so good -- I`m not a huge fan of that one drunken love song though.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That one just doesn`t do it for me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Carrie, what`s he talking about?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing. He`s joking -- right?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell them you wouldn`t say something bad about Beyonce.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s too late. They`ve come for us.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s "Saturday Night Live" doing a skit about how really it`s not ok to say anything negative about Beyonce. Meanwhile, the Internet is just floating with tons of theories about what set Solange off. The #whatJayZsaidtoSolange is trending all over Twitter and so are these Vines as fans speculate what the super famous rapper might have said that sparked such a reaction. These hilarious memes all over the Internet, as well, poking fun at the incident.

Here`s one calling Jay and Beyonce`s upcoming tour the "Run from Solange Tour" -- that`s kind of funny; and another calling Solange Jay-Z`s 100th problem, a reference to his song there. Blair Texas, what do you think?

BLAIR, TEXAS (via telephone): Oh, my God, Jane. Thank you so much for taking my call, by the way.


BLAIR: My opinion about this is that Solange must be jealous as heck of Beyonce and Jay-Z`s relationship. I`m a massive Beyonce and Jay-Z fan and Solange needs to basically shut up about this whole situation. Because, you know, Beyonce is married to Jay-Z. And Jay-Z is Beyonce`s, not Solange`s.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ooh. Girl, you just hit on something very deep. Oh, my gosh. All right. I`ve got to ask -- well, Ana Quincoces, you`re the star of "Real Housewives of Miami". You know about sexual intrigue and you`re also an attorney. She is raising -- this viewer is saying, hey, maybe Solange is secretly got sexual chemistry or has a crush on Jay-Z, and you know, when you drink, those crushes come out in different ways. I know from 19 years ago.

QUINCOCES: You know, I -- I don`t know about that one. I don`t know. I think Jay-Z has other trouble. And I`m going to disclose first that I am not a huge Jay-Z and Beyonce fan. I`m Cuban, I`m not happy with the visit, I`m not happy with the Che Guevara T-shirts -- I`m just going to put that out there.

But I think that because there is no voice in this video, we have to go by the actions. And the actions are that a few days later, Solange and Beyonce left together to Kelly Rowland`s wedding in Costa Rica, and everything was peachy. And, you know what? The benefit of this right now is that a lot of people are saying Solange, Solange -- nobody knew who the hell Solange was five days ago.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

LUCAS: Well, listen, you can`t (inaudible) about Solange.


QUINCOCES: Maybe you know who Solange was --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Ok. You`ve had your say.

LUCAS: She`s a known figure. She`s had magazine covers.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, we`re going to will give everybody else on the panel their say.

Stay right there. We`ve got more to say.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Her world tours are record-breaking. Dhani, at the end of the day, it can`t be easy to live in Beyonce`s shadow.

JONES: No, absolutely not. I think at the end of the day, it is all about selling tickets for their tour.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You think this was a set up, this whole fight? We can show it again, in the elevator, with Solange.

JONES: How in the world does a Standard Hotel, how does a Standard Hotel release this video? They have a reputation to uphold and all of a sudden they release this video? Which, by the way, I don`t --


LUCAS: I don`t think they are ok with it being released. It is a security breach.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Dr. Judy?

JONES: You think it is a security breach?

LUCAS: I definitely think it was. They made a statement.

HO: I think there`s some real issues here in this family.

JONES: So you`re saying, somebody was sitting on the side of the road, they got the feed and then they send it out. Or you`re saying somebody just leaked it?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Judy, quick.

HO: Yes. I think that there are some real issues in this family. Like every family, they kiss and make up and things resolve. That`s probably what we saw today with these reports that they are shopping for jewelry together.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Demetria -- 10 seconds.

LUCAS: I think Solange has always been Beyonce`s biggest protector and Beyonce`s biggest advocate. I definitely don`t think it is sibling rivalry. I think it`s a family issue. There`s no audio and we should not speculate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to leave it right there. I think Beyonce can take care of herself.

Thank you, fantastic panel.

Nancy Grace is up next with the latest on the Schenecker trial.