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Brothers Accused of Sexually Molesting Sister; Defense Witness Backs Insanity Defense for Mouthy Mom; Too Sexy for Prom

Aired May 14, 2014 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, this beautiful teenager kicked out of her own prom because the adult dad chaperones just couldn`t handle her sex appeal. Does she now have a lawsuit? I will talk to her sister live tonight.

Plus drama in the courtroom as the prosecution launches its rebuttal case in the Mouthy Mom murder trial. It`s a vicious battle over Julie Schenecker`s state of mind. Was this mom legally crazy when she butchered her two teenaged kids? Prosecutors say unh-uh.

And Dean McDermott spills his guts about why he cheated, blaming his wife, Tori Spelling for his having cheated on her. You won`t believe what the couple reveals about their sex life.

But first, a disgusting, deeply disgusting, shocking story. Six very religious brothers, accused of raping and molesting their own little sister for a decade, from when she was 4 years old until she was 14 years old inside their extremely isolated North Carolina home.

Cops say their own mom witnessed the horrific abuse of her own daughter by her own sons at least once and just walked away. Cops say she never did anything to stop it. A house of horrors for over a decade.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live. Thanks for joining me.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Jackson brothers sexually abused their younger sister.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not normal. You don`t have a relationship with your brothers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the brothers came forward after confessing to his pastor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family had problems.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I knew that they were sort of an anti-government, anti-schools.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric confessed to it all. The suspects, the six brothers.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look at these suspects. Eric, Jon, Matthew, Nathaniel, Benjamin and Alan [SIC] Jackson. The Jackson brothers.

Cops say this repulsive crime stretched from January 2003 through December of 2012. That`s when the oldest brother, 27-year-old Eric Jackson, went to his family`s pastor and said he needed to, quote, "walk in the light" and confess his sin to save his soul.

Cops say the pastor then reported the allegations to police and then took Eric to the sheriff`s office. Cops say Eric confessed to them and then two more brothers, Jon and Matthew, came forward; and they also admitted they sexually assaulted their own sister.

But then the Jackson parents, who friends describe as extremely anti- government and strictly religious, prevented authorities from speaking to the victim, their daughter. And then they fled to Colorado with most of the family. Here`s the pastor.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wanted those things in the family to healed because the family had problems. He told me even then that there were some things going on that at home that he couldn`t talk about but he could talk to me about at some point in time. In December of 2012, he came to me and said that he had gotten permission from his father. He needed to confess this sin and make restitution in ways that he can. And one of the ways he could was to go confess to the authorities so that the things that were happening in his house could be stopped.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The six brothers and parents finally turned themselves in. Very recently, just last week, the parents bonded out of jail, facing felony child neglect. Should they be facing more? We`ll debate it tonight.

And tonight, the six brothers are still behind bars, some charged with rape, some charged with first-degree sex offense, others a litany of charges. We`ve attempted to reach the mother and father and the attorney, anybody in this family. We have not heard back. They`re invited on any time. Boy, do we have questions to ask them.

Again, we`re not naming the victim, but we cannot protect her in this case, because the siblings have been identified by cops.

What do you think about this horror story? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

We have got a fantastic Lion`s Den debate panel tonight. But first straight out to WAVY reporter Liz Palka. Liz, how could this have gone on for a decade without anybody noticing that something was very, very, very, very, very, very wrong?

LIZ PALKA, WAVY REPORTER (via phone): Well, the truth is, Jane, people just did not know this family well. This is a very rural area. They lived in Perquimans County, North Carolina. There are neighbors nearby. They would see the kids outside, but they were all homeschooled, and I say quote, unquote, "homeschooled." They really didn`t have a whole lot of formal education, didn`t have any friends outside the family, for the most part.

The neighbors would see them working in their yard and just hanging out in the area, but they just did not know what was going on inside that house.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But let me ask you a question. The father is described in some news reports as a preacher. Well, if they never leave the house, who the heck is he preaching to?

PALKA: Yes. That`s a good question. As far as talking to neighbors go, and talking to the sheriff, I don`t think they really knew what he did.

The sheriff, Sheriff Eric Tilley, is familiar with the father, and as soon as this case came up, he knew that he wasn`t going to be cooperative, because they had had some county issues with them before, nothing related to this case. And so he knew that they were going to be tough, tough to work with, and it was going to be hard to figure out this information.

But as far as them interacting outside their own home, I mean, they might say hi to their neighbors. They might go to...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they did go to church, yes. They went to a church, I guess, because the pastor says he knew them. And this young man who did eventually go to the pastor knew of the pastor to go to.

But the -- stand by for a second, Liz. Neighbors say the Jackson family isolated themselves, as you mentioned, inside this very remotely located home in North Carolina. And they even put up a fence as soon as they moved in. You can see that there`s a fence surrounding the property.

According to a close family friend, which is shocking that they even have a close family friend, frankly, the father, who`s facing felony child neglect charges, was a church preacher who had very strict religious views.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe in what the Bible says. You know, we`re living in end times, and this just proves it.

So Sunday morning service, you have children`s Sunday school. He wouldn`t let the Sunday schoolteacher that was appointed by the church to teach his children.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight local authorities report the Jackson parents went to Colorado after they bonded out, leaving their six kids in jail. Deputies say one of the brothers told them his mother once witnessed the abuse of his little sister and just walked away and did nothing.

Out to the Lion`s Den, which we`ve got a fantastic panel. Want to start with Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor. Should these parents have been charged with a whole lot more than just felony child neglect?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, it`s not just the mother. I mean, come on. The father was a preacher? The family was, quote, "very religious"? What was it, the Church of the Holy Erection?

Are you kidding me? It`s not just the mother. These kids were isolated from the real world, raping -- not having a relationship with -- raping a little girl over and over again for ten years. Of course, these parents know what`s going on. They didn`t go to school.


MURPHY: This is a red-flag family. When you think about homeschooling that number of kids, you need to be pounding on the door, not because everyone who`s homeschooled is getting raped or raping somebody, but they`re not subject to public oversight. CPS (ph) should have been here. The parents should be in jail right now.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask a very provocative question, and let me set it up. But the question is -- and we`re going to debate -- did these kids even know they were doing something wrong if they were isolated?

Now after Eric confessed, two other brothers -- we`re talking about Jon and Matthew -- came forward to investigators, and they backed up Eric`s claims. They said, "Yes, we had sex with our sister." Cops say all six brothers were completely emotionless when they turned themselves in.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They hadn`t been taught different. So I don`t -- I`m not sure when that`s going to sink in exactly what you`re doing was wrong. I don`t think they knew the magnitude of what this -- what they`ve done, because I don`t think they knew it was wrong.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Out to the Lion`s Den. Dr. Gabe Crenshaw, psychologist.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, if they`re living in this house isolated, one of the young boys could barely -- young men could barely sign his name, not educated. They see -- I guess this is passed down from brother to brother. Can that be a defense? Is it possible that some of the younger ones anyway, because it`s the eldest brother who confessed, didn`t know they were doing anything wrong?

CRENSHAW: Well, absolutely, Jane. I`ll tell you this, and I think that what we`re going to find is that the father and the mother were not only complicit, but probably where did the boys learn it from? We need to get really clear about this. It`s almost as if it`s some sort of ritualistic abuse happening. They learned it from somewhere.

This is clear-cut social learning theory. And it`s just basic. You have behaviors modeled to you, and it`s rewarded in some way. The reward was the level of secrecy. The pay-off was "we are a family," the spiritual notion.

The silly religious dogma that sort of overtakes you that, you know, sometimes people who are doing these kinds of abuses feel like -- they teach we`re getting closer to God. You`re getting closer to love. You teach that to children, and before children have a sense of what`s right or wrong, there is that mechanism inside of all of us that, left unchecked, will naturally do the right thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Jordan Rose, I want to...

CRENSHAW: It becomes convoluted.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As an attorney, do you think these young men, 19-27 - - we can put up all their mug shots, all these Jackson brothers -- can use as a defense that, "Well, I`m living isolated in the house. I can barely write my name. The older brother`s doing it. He`s telling me, well, yes, I did it and so does the one above him and above him. I didn`t know I was doing anything wrong."

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: Jane, they`ll sure try. You`ve got to believe their defense attorney is sure going to try.

But talk about the decline of family values and bad parenting taken to an incredibly new and heinous level. These kids were under the influence of lunatics, and these people should be thrown in jail forever.

And if they want to use the excuse that their parents taught them this. And this was a modeling of behavior, well, the jury`s going to look at that. I suppose that it`s just so awful. And they knew enough to go to the pastor, and thank God, literally, thank God, that that pastor told them to go to the authorities, and they did.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s interesting is the pastor went to the authorities. The pastor, Dhani Jones, called the authorities. And then Eric came back, the young man came back, and he said, "We`re going to the sheriff`s," and that`s when he confessed.

Now, you know, you always see in the movies that the pastor hears all sorts of things -- "Oh, I murdered so and so" -- and he never says a word. But in this case, he felt it was his obligation to go to the authorities, because there was a girl who was still in danger.

DHANI JONES, SPIKE TV: He`s a mandated reporter. I think it was his obligation. But it was also -- also the law that he had to go and be able to talk to the officers, on my impression.

And at the same time, did you see the smug look on the mother`s face when she was getting arraigned? I mean, when she was taking her mug shot? I mean, it looked like she had already been through this and know it had been going on for such a long time, as it stated throughout the different records of the interviews and such.

But the fact that they stood by and they let this happen, I mean, a social matter built within the family. It had to be passed down.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. You are so right, Dhani. Look at this mom`s face. She`s smiling. What the hell is she smiling about? What is -- wipe that grin off your face, lady. You live and you raise a house of horrors.

On the other side, we`re going to go to Pete Dominick, Sirius XM host, and the calls are lining up. How is this allowed to go on? And what about this poor girl who`s now 16, who was allegedly raped, sexually assaulted by her own six brothers by a decade.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the things in the family to be healed, because the family had problems.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the house where the Jacksons lived, and it`s where the Perquimans County sheriff says a teenaged girl was sexually assaulted since she was 4 or 5. The suspects, the six brothers.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They first moved here, we did have them to dinner a couple of times. They seemed like very normal people, normal children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To have something like this and for the parents to be able to allow something like that to happen, you know, it`s really heart-breaking. Really heart-breaking.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: They always say that: "They looked so normal." No, they were not normal. This was a house of horrors. A little girl from 4 to 14 sexually assaulted by six of her brothers, say cops.

And the only reason it stopped is because one of them, the oldest brother had a moment where he really felt guilty and went to his pastor and confessed. The pastor called cops. The next thing you know, the six of them are in jail; the parents have also been charged with child abuse. But should they be charged with more?

Now cops say the Jackson parents had such a strong resentment of the government and were very deeply religious, and they homeschooled all six of their boys and this poor daughter of theirs. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I knew the family. I knew that they were sort of anti-government. They were anti-schools. The kids didn`t go to school. Their education seems to be very limited. So I wasn`t surprised.

You`ve got that many kids living in a home like that. And I seen it on a smaller scale, of course, not nothing like this, but it really didn`t surprise me.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now Pete Dominick, there are homeschooled kids who really excel and overachieve. These are not some of them. The cops said one of them had a hard time even writing his own name.

Where was Child Protective Services? Aren`t there any rules and regs you can`t just keep your kid isolated in some kind of rickety compound and nobody from the government that they hate comes and checks?

PETE DOMINICK, SIRIUS XM HOST: That`s a fair question. I mean, when you hear that a family is anti-school and anti-government, that usually raises a red flag.

Jane, I haven`t seen a family this isolated, this walled off and this -- misinterpret religion so badly since the bin Laden family was captured behind walls in Pakistan.

And how come every time, by the way, a Muslim person does something like this, we call them an Islamist, a militant Islamist.


DOMINICK: But this guy`s a preacher. How come we don`t call him a Christianist? How come we`re not blaming religion for this?

And by the way, if you never let your boys outside your house, they might start eyeballing their sister.

And lastly, the one thing about religion I`ve never understood about Christianity, is how come there`s no commandment is No. 2 or 3, at least, that says, "Thou shalt not rape, especially my sibling."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor`s wife. This doesn`t even get to the neighbor.

ROSE: This is not right in the house. Criminal -- this is a family...

DOMINICK: Everything to do with religion. It has a lot to do with religion. Yes, it does.

ROSE: It has nothing to do with religious. That`s an excuse, and that`s crazy.

JONES: That`s true. I don`t think that`s anything to do with religion, either.

ROSE: These are crazy people. They`re turning their kids into a criminal enterprise.

JONES: I`ll say this...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead, Dhani.

DOMINICK: When it`s a Christian...

JONES: I have to ask this question, if they`re anti-government, and they`re anti-school, it also seems like they`re anti-birth control, as well, right? So here`s a family that has seven kids. Is it possible that something happened with the daughter, as well? Did she not possibly get pregnant during this time, as well? Would that be something that could be a possibility that hasn`t even risen to...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we do know, according to the pastor...

CRENSHAW: I`m not so sure that the father is...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... the father did not want them to talk, did not want cops to talk to the daughter.

CRENSHAW: Because he`s in on it. I think when this is all said and done...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time. One at a time.

CRENSHAW: ... we`re going to find that the father is equally as guilty.

MURPHY: When you keep a child behind closed doors, it`s rather convenient to be anti-government. And for anybody to suggest that they were very religious, can we just stop saying that? Because there is no religion, no religion that recommends the systematic raping of a child, none.

CRENSHAW: It is, they`re called cults.

MURPHY: ... respect of being religious.

CRENSHAW: No, that`s not true. They`re called cults. They are called cults. And they do have a religious...

MURPHY: That`s called organized crime.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on a second. Pete Dominick`s point is that when somebody from a religion that is not a part of the dominant -- you know, dominant in our culture does something, then they`re immediately identified as a Muslim or whatever.

And if this man happened to be -- and I don`t know what his religion was -- but they were very involved with the Bible. So if he did happen to be, for example, a Christian fundamentalist, should that be looked at?

You know, I just watched "Son of God," starring Diego Morgado, I think his name was. I was struck by "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."

I wonder, I do have to ask, if it`s possible, Dr. Gabe Crenshaw, that at least the younger sons, because they were brought up in this very sick, crazy environment, where they saw their older brothers, really didn`t understand. Because I have a little compassion for them.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, they`re growing up in this upside-down world where they`ve got these sick, demented parents who are looking the other way, allegedly, according to cops, at least the mom. And they`re watching their brothers do something. Are they, in a way, also victims?

CRENSHAW; Of course they are, Jane. You know what? I`m with you on this all the way. And psychology really tells us this. There is coercion, even though they are the perpetrator. In fact they played a dual role as the victim, as well.

So then you say what`s the age of consent? What is the age of accountability? But you`ve grown up in this. You put religion on top of it, it becomes learned behavior. And before you know it, you are now convinced that wrong is right and right is wrong. You just don`t really know exactly what`s going on. I think, when it`s all said and done...

MURPHY: If they were raised to think it`s OK to kill, would you blame God, too, if they were raised to believe killing was acceptable?

CRENSHAW: What is wrong?

MURPHY: Where do we draw the line? Let`s stop with the sympathy.

CRENSHAW: Religion...

MURPHY: It doesn`t take a genius to know that you do not rape a child.

DOMINICK: The responsibility falls on the parents.

MURPHY: They probably had iPhones. And they know what they did was wrong.

JONES: Dhani. I agree.

MURPHY: Please.


JONES: It falls on the parents. The two people that should be behind bars are the parents, and no matter how old the kids are now, it`s a hierarchy system that they`re assisting living in the house. It`s an isolated -- it`s an island.

CRENSHAW: I agree. Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The parents bonded out and left the kids in jail. That shows you how they feel about them.

CRENSHAW: ... kids and telling them exactly what they needed to do. Exactly. Exactly, Jane.

MURPHY: This is not -- this is not a desert.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to...

ROSE: These parents that kept their...

CRENSHAW: There`s a level of guilt, and we`re going to find it at the top.

ROSE: ... kids isolated so that they had no outside influences. They had no school. They had no one to tell them right from wrong except those parents.

CRENSHAW: Except the executive function.

ROSE: I don`t know, psychologically, if you can determine right from wrong at that point but wow.

CRENSHAW: They essentially trapped them in a house.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We got to go. We got to go. I wanted to get to Bob from Pennsylvania. Maybe you can hang on for the next story, Bob. So sorry.

Is a soccer mom accused of gunning down her two children in cold blood mentally ill or just evil? We`ll go inside court next.


COLONEL PARKER SCHENECKER, ESTRANGED HUSBAND OF DEFENDANT: The problem at hand was a chemical and substance abuse problem. It was alcohol, and then I found out while she was in rehab that it was drugs, as well.




JULIE SCHENECKER, ON TRIAL FOR KILLING HER CHILDREN: The last straw, my daughter, my 16-year-old, was just mouthy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you want to shoot her in the mouth?

J. SCHENECKER: Because it angers me so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An all-American family with a sick member.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know what kind of condition they`re this?

J. SCHENECKER: They`re a mess.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re a mess? Are they alive or dead?

J. SCHENECKER: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact that she was experiencing symptoms of severe and persistent mental illness at the time of the offenses. She did know that she was killing her children, that she killed her children, and she did know that that was wrong.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, shock and drama in the Mouthy Mom murder trial. It`s the courtroom battle of the shrinks as we barrel toward the dramatic crescendo of this case.

After the defense put on a psychologist who insists that this soccer mom is crazy and should not be held responsible for slaughtering her two kids, the prosecution launched a searing rebuttal, putting expert after expert on the stand to say Julie Schenecker was sane and knew right from wrong.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did not find that she was legally insane under the law in Florida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite the fact that she was experiencing symptoms of severe and persistent mental illness at the time of the offenses, she did know that she was killing her children, that she had killed her children, and she did know that that was wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is my opinion that in both offenses she was legally sane at the time of the alleged offenses.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This woman, Julie Schenecker, charged with two counts of first-degree murder. Cops say she planned the murders of her beautiful two teenaged children, 14-year-old Beau and 16-year-old Calyx, buying a gun, shooting them both in the head and in the mouth, because she said they were too mouthy and sassy.

Now the defense psychologist insisted she had to be legally insane, crazy.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I firmly have the opinion that she was insane at the time of the crime.

Sane people don`t shoot and kill their children. They don`t kill their children. Even psychopaths don`t kill their own children.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So which is it? Is she crazy or not?

Straight out to Alexis Weed, HLN producer. You were in court today, and you`ve got breaking news for us. Tell us.

ALEXIS WEED, HLN PRODUCER: Jane, big day today. The state rested its case, and that means that the jury could get the case as soon as tomorrow. We expect closing arguments in the morning, but today it was all about the state`s expert testimony.

They put on their rebuttal case, and each expert -- they had three of them -- they all testified as we expected. They said Julie Schenecker was not insane at the time of these crimes. And what they looked at were some of the things that she wrote down and what she said to police officers, to different psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, all around the time of the murders. They said that those were the most reliable records that they could look at.

And according to those records, she used words like "evil." She said she was planning a massacre. They said that these showed that she knew what she was doing, and she knew that it was wrong.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. As one of the prosecution psychologists said, it`s not like she was walking down Main Street thinking she was a princess or hearing the devil or the angel command her to do something. She may have been mentally ill to a certain degree with bipolar, but that doesn`t mean that she was so crazy she doesn`t know right from wrong, according to the prosecution.

Now, let`s listen to what her husband said. Now remember, this happened, her husband was off serving as a colonel in the Army in Afghanistan. And he was concerned about leaving her with the kids. Listen to him.


P. SCHENECKER: I reminded her, I`m leaving in a few days. I just wanted to make sure that everything`s OK. Are you going to be OK with me being gone for a couple of weeks? The defendant at that time looked me squarely in the eye and said, "I got this."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, she got it all right. She killed both of the kids.

Alexis Weed, you were in court. There were gruesome, gruesome details revealed today about what Julie Schenecker did with her daughter`s body?

WEED: Yes. So we heard today, and this was the first time that we`ve heard this, that after she killed both of her children -- remember it was Beau first, Calyx second. Calyx was murdered in her bedroom. Now Julie Schenecker told one of her evaluating psychologists that she hugged her children and that on Calyx, she -- the way they put it was, she manipulated Calyx`s mouth into a smile. This is all after the kids are dead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my God. Jordan Rose, attorney, Phoenix, Arizona, you and I were covering the Jodi Arias case together. You know, this idea that the defense psychologist said, "Oh, well, she killed her kids, she has to be crazy, because no sane person" -- yes, they do.

ROSE: That`s exactly right. This person may have been insane by the kind of just conversational, oh, she`s insane. But the definition under the law is did this woman know what she was doing and did she think it was wrong? And here we have experts that say she knew what she was doing. and she admitted it was evil.

And more importantly, Jane, we have her husband who knows her the best and her family saying she was calculating, she was cruel, she was evil. She knew what she was doing. This is no one who should deserve the insanity defense -- this person`s going to prison for life.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Join us tomorrow right here, we`re going to bring you the very latest on closing arguments, that`s tomorrow. Oh, my gosh.

On the other side -- this story also makes my blood boil in a different way.

A high school senior kicked out of her own prom for being too hot. You will not believe this story. I`m going to talk to the girl`s sister next.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Frustration over being kicked out of an area home school prom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It blew up a lot faster than we thought.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It all started when someone made a comment that his girlfriend`s dress was too short.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fathers believe that she would provoke impure thoughts in the boys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pulled to the side and told she was dancing to provocatively.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Trending tonight -- uproar as a 17-year-old fires back after she`s kicked out of her senior prom because she claims the adult dad chaperones were checking her out. This gorgeous girl says she did absolutely nothing to deserve getting thrown out when she claims she got to the prom for homeschooled students, which was held at a church, by the way. She said she was told her sparkly silver dress was too short, but there she is proving that it passed the fingertips dress code guideline because the hem line was below her fingertips. That`s the rule, she was let in.

Then a little while later, the teen says she was asked to leave because the dad chaperones thought she was dancing too provocatively.

In a post on her sister`s blog, she writes quote, "Mrs. D again approached me and gestured me off the dance floor. She took me into a corner in the hallway with another woman who I`m assuming was a parent chaperon and told me that some of the dads who were chaperoning had complained that my dancing was too provocative and that I was going to cause the young men at the prom to think impure thoughts."

But the teen claimed she`d barely started dancing. She said, "I was told that the way I dressed and moved my body was causing men to think inappropriately about me implying that it`s my responsibility to control other people`s thoughts and drives."

Straight out to my primetime exclusive guest -- this young lady`s sister, Hannah Ettinger. Hannah -- Hannah thanks for joining us. First of all, how upset is your sister over missing this once in a lifetime moment, we all remember our prom and she was denied the opportunity to fully experience this, how is she feeling about that?

HANNAH ETTINGER, SISTER: You know, honestly, she`s actually less upset about the prom than she is about the fact that these men were trying to control what she was wearing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who are these men? These dads who were acting as male chaperons and essentially she says that they thought their sons would get impure thoughts. You know what I think? It means that the dads were getting impure thoughts and why is that her fault for being a beautiful girl? Maybe they shouldn`t have dad chaperons, maybe they should have their wives chaperon if these guys are so overcome by a pretty girl?

I mean my God, the theme of the entire prom was "twilight in Paris, so she shouldn`t dress like a farmer`s daughter, she`s dressing in what a Parisian woman would wear.

ETTINGER: Right. Well, you know the thing is that in this culture, the dads are the heads of the households. And because the parents organized the homeschool prom, because this is not a school event and they had to come together and go independently, all of the parents who were asked to semi-volunteer for something and a lot of the parents volunteered to be chaperons at this event the evening of.

And, you know, the dads happened to be able to get away from their family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Would you say that in this culture, the dads are the heads of the households. What are you talking about? Is this -- I mean, you know, we`re not in the "Father Knows Best" era anymore. I mean we have people, adults who make intelligent decisions hopefully, and they make decisions as equal partners in a relationship.

What are you describing here? Because I`m wondering this prom was held in a church, which I don`t think is a great venue for a prom, frankly. I mean, you know, proms are about flirting, dating, dancing, and church isn`t about flirting, dating and dancing. So I don`t think -- I think that`s oil and water right there. But is there a particular community you`re talking about here? Is this a religious community or not? And I don`t know, honestly.

ETTINGER: It was not a Christian event, specifically. However, I think the majority of the people represented there would identify as conservative Christians, they would identify as, you know, adhering to old- fashioned family values, kind of 1950s complementarians (ph) where the father is the provider and the instigator and the leader and the mom stays at home and takes care of the kids and does the schooling and the cooking and the cleaning and supports his career.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. You know what -- if you could stand by, I have got to get our panelists in on this.

I don`t even know where to begin with this one. But I have to maybe begin with a quote that we have from the teenager, who was thrown out. She goes, "Enough with the slut shaming, please. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I`m not responsible for some perverted 45-year-old dad lusting after me because I have a sparkly dress on and a big (inaudible) for a teenager. If you think I am then maybe you`re part of the problem."

Gee -- honestly, Dr. Gabe, what`s with these dads?

DR. GABE CRENSHAW, PSYCHOLOGIST: You know what -- honestly, I read it and I thought they`re nasty. You know what the dads are just good and nasty. And if they`re that concerned about what`s going on -- I mean I question why they should be there in the first place, but I mean come on. You know what -- church is the place as we have really seen in the last decade where sex and lust and all that happens even more so. You know -- it`s all that pressure.

PETE DOMINICK, RADIO HOST: And Jane it wasn`t -- it wasn`t -- it`s not like they were dancing in the pews under a crucifix. I`m sure it was a church hall. And I have to say Hannah and your sister, Claire -- you go, girl. I mean generally, where I come from, any man who employs the phrase "impure thoughts" is usually on the wrong side of an argument.


DOMINICK: It`s just a silly, horrific, patriarchal thing to say. I`ve got two daughters -- if my daughters grew up to be like Hannah and Claire, I`ll be proud of them.



DHANI JONES, FORMER NFL PLAYER: Yes but don`t -- don`t forget this is --


MURPHY: -- Jane, let`s not go too far, because we haven`t seen what the other girls were wearing. If everybody else looked like Granny Clampett, and she showed up like a Kardashian that could be offensive --

CRENSHAW: Well, no, she said they didn`t --

MURPHY: To the religious values -- however.

JONES: Look, I keep coming back to this and this is the point I`m trying to make --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time. One at a time. Wendy, finish your thoughts and then we`ll go on.

MURPHY: -- she`s beautiful.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go on. Wendy just finish your thoughts just one at a time. Go, yes.

MURPHY: I`m trying to make a simple point that just because she looked sexy and we think she looks beautiful doesn`t make it right for the religious values of the people around her. And talk about confusing to a girl, she`s going to this place where the values are men rule the roost and men are in charge of women and in a male-dominated culture, they want girls to look like that sometimes, have you not watched television and MTV and so forth. So these girls get confusing messages. I`m supposed to wear a Granny Clampett outfit to a church dance.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. All right. Dhani --

MURPHY: In the real world I`m supposed to dress like a slut and then --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, hold it.

MURPHY: How do you figure that out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy we got your point. Hold it.

DOMINICK: Dressed like a slut? Dressed like a slut? Did I just hear a woman say dress like a slut on TV? Really? You`re slut shaming a young girl -- really?

MURPHY: Did I shame her or did I use the word that she used?

DOMINICK: A woman -- a woman -- wait. You just said that women who dress a certain way -- forget her. You said that women that dress a certain are sluts?

MURPHY: I said women get mixed messages, Dude? Granny Clampett dressed in a miniskirt, how do you do that in this world? How do you do that?

DOMINICK: She met the regulation. She met the regulation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Dhani.

JONES: The fact that they were at a church, the fact that they`re at a prom -- that elicits impure thoughts right off the bat. It`s almost a rite of passage. She left her house saying that she was going to be like Marilyn Monroe, so she was trying to attract that sexual energy that would come from both those boys and as well as those men. And are they responsible for their thoughts? Of course, they`re grown persons. They`re grown men. You should be able to keep those in check.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me tell you something. There are young -- there are girls who are just beautiful and they have sex appeal, they can`t do anything about it, nor should they have to. And if these men are having such a reaction, to me, it says a lot more about them than it says about her.

I`m wondering what`s going on in the home with these guys, you know what I mean. Are they getting their needs met?

More on the other side.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fathers believed that she would provoke impure thoughts in the boys. It`s sexism. They`re saying you`re making us feel certain things so you have to do what we tell you to do. And that`s not right.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, by the way, this young woman at the heart of all this is 17. She`s doing dual enrollment at the local community college and finishing up her last year of high school. So she`s no dummy, ok? She`s smart -- probably smarter than some of the guys who were chaperoning her. This young man`s girlfriend, ok, the man you heard from, she`s 5`9", this girl at the center of this controversy. So she`s model tall. She`s a beautiful blond with long legs, she`s not to blame for her height.

Listen to what she said. She goes quote, "I didn`t look like most of the 13 to 15-year-old girls there, I looked like a woman. And I am so tired of people who abuse their power to make women feel violated and ashamed because she has an ass or has breasts or has long legs."

I think she has a great point. Pete Dominick, she`s really making a great argument. Indeed, I`m wondering could she possibly take legal action? I mean this was a homeschool organized prom, and by the way, we reach out to the prom organizers and they`re invited on our show any time. We would like to hear their side of the story. They took away this night that she can never get back.

DOMINICK: That`s true, and you know, I`m not a lawyer, Jane, I can`t really answer that. I mean there`s something --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll answer it. Anybody can sue for anything. The question is will you win? Continue on.

DOMINICK: Right. That`s true. You know -- uniform law. But she`s meeting the requirement that she was asked to meet and that`s all that matters. She absolutely met the requirements she was asked to meet. And yes, there are 13 to 17-year-old girls that look like grown women. It`s up for us men to be responsible about our own thoughts, our own fantasies and keep them to ourselves.

I`m raising two strong, confident women, and I don`t like the idea. And I used to -- I`ll be honest -- I used to objectify women just like any man -- often many men do. But when you see life through a girl`s eyes the way a father of daughters does, you see things differently. It`s my responsible to control myself.

CRENSHAW: Well, you should. You should.

DOMINICK: If I have impure thoughts and by the way, thinking about sex is not impure, it`s as natural as urinating and we don`t tell our kids not to think about that, do we?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go to the -- I think -- go ahead.

CRENSHAW: I applaud her for her feminist approach as well. This sort of patriarchal society that I see wherever she is, I think that`s a problem too. And I think the onus is on the men, it`s not necessarily the 17-year- old. I love her voice for where she is in the world. I hope girls are listening to that. Don`t ever think that you have to adjust who you are or what you wear and bring your dress down. You know what -- because you know what, because if they`re going to touch you or rape you they will do it whether you`re dress is floor length or whether it`s to your thigh. It has nothing to do with that. Control yourselves, man.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to go to the phone lines, guys one second because Mel North Carolina has been waiting. Mel, weigh in, my dear.

MEL, NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Jane, how are you doing?


MEL: I think the school was wrong. I`m 64 years old. She followed the rules -- damn the school.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? I agree with you. You know, short and sweet and to the point.


DOMINICK: This is religion too, by the way.

MURPHY: Can I just say one thing. Let`s be careful not to ignore the fact that girls are propagandized in this country to render themselves sexually exploitable and they are rewarded for subjugating themselves to this manner of being that is not respectful. I mean I`m not saying --


MURPHY: -- listen, I`m not saying girls shouldn`t dress how they want. But let`s not be stupid when they dress in ways that are disrespectful to themselves --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We can`t all talk at once. We got your point. Now let Dhani weigh in.


JONES: She knew she was going and she said she wanted to look like Marilyn Monroe. She knew when she was going into that room she was dressing up to look like Marilyn Monroe.

MURPHY: Oh goody. Why are you celebrating that? Marilyn Monroe was a drug addict who was exploited by everybody.

JONES: Look, here`s the point I`m trying to make, one of the things they probably should have done, anatomically speaking, was measure the dress, not from the finger length but also from the length from the knee. Right? So if you want to kind of take --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. I`m sorry, Dhani. I love you, but I don`t think that you should be penalized for having long legs. Ok? If you have got a hot set of long legs, you should not be penalized for it. That`s wrong.

She`s 5`9". God made her 5`9".

MURPHY: Nor should you be rewarded for having your ass hanging out. Why are we so --

JONES: Exactly.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ll be back in a second.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The main reason they said for her getting kicked out -- it started with her dancing too provocatively. And then it changed. They went back to it being about the dress. And then we already said we addressed that. And then they said that we were just being -- we were just causing too much of a problem. And we needed to leave.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that is the boyfriend. Now, we have an exclusive primetime interview with Hannah Ettinger, the sister of the young lady kicked out of the prom. Now, you updated your blog saying that people were suggesting that maybe this had to do with the fact that your sister was part of an interracial couple. Do you think that`s a factor? Because the young man, the boyfriend said, he didn`t think that was a factor?

ETTINGER: No. And the reason that James said he didn`t think that was a problem was because he -- he wasn`t standing with her, they weren`t acting as a couple, they were standing with a group. And when she got pulled aside, they really weren`t -- they weren`t looking like they were together at that moment. And so, she was pulled aside independently, he later came and joined her in the hall. And at that point, I think the coordinator realized that they were together. But they were already in the process of asking her to leave.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, your sister is a very independent minded young lady. And I think it was her spirit that may have threatened these men. She is highly intelligent. And she was not playing the game. She was being an individual. And I think that was what rubbed them the wrong way or the right way. As it were.

Nancy Grace is up next.