Return to Transcripts main page


Mom Who Drove Kids Into Ocean: `I`m Not Crazy`; Alone and in Labor Behind Bars; Brad Pitt Attacked by Notorious Prankster

Aired May 29, 2014 - 19:00   ET


JOEY JACKSON, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the case that horrified and captivated the nation. A pregnant mom accused of having a mental health breakdown. Hearing demons and trying to murder her three children. She drove them right into the Atlantic Ocean.

Well, that mom has now given birth to a precious newborn inside of a jail`s mental-health facility. Just hours ago, Ebony Wilkerson appeared in court telling the judge -- and I quote -- that "I`m not crazy." She isn`t crazy. She feels like herself again. But should we believe her now?

A pleasant good evening to you. I`m Joey Jackson filling in for my good friend, Jane Velez-Mitchell.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When a mom took her vehicle and accelerated towards the water, she put her family and herself in danger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need a wellness check.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She thinks there`s demons in the house?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The two in the back seat was crying with their arms out, saying, "Our mommy`s trying to kill us. Please help."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three counts of attempted first-degree murder. You`re also charged with three counts of child abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not going to help.


JACKSON: Wow. Ebony Wilkerson is charged with three counts of attempted first-degree murder and three counts of third-degree felony child abuse. And just hours ago, we finally heard Ebony speak in court. Listen to this.


EBONY WILKERSON, CHARGED WITH ATTEMPTING TO MURDER HER CHILDREN: I feel like I`m back to my normal self, and I`m feeling like my old self, like old Ebony, yes.


JACKSON: So the judge decided to reduce Ebony`s bond from a whopping $1.2 million to only $90,000. But does this bond fit the actual crime?

Remember her children were ages 3, 9 and 10, and they told police that as mom drove toward those waves, she locked the car doors, rolled up those windows and she said, "You know what? Close your eyes and go to sleep."

Rescuers say that Wilkerson, she then tried to fight them off as they struggled to save her and her children from drowning.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A kid on her lap fighting her for the steering wheel. And the two in the back seat was crying with their arms out, saying, "Our mommy`s trying to kill us. Please help."


JACKSON: So should the judge have reduced the bond? I want to hear from you tonight. Call me at 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1877-586-7297.

Of course, we have a fabulous Lion`s Den panel. They`re standing by, and they`re ready to debate. But before we get to them, I want to first go to Mark Starling.

Mark, you`re a reporter and anchor for News 96.5. I know you`ve been covering this from day one. There was a big proceeding in court today, Mark. Take us through and give us the very latest.

MARK STARLING, REPORTER/ANCHOR, NEWS 96.5 (via phone): Well, essentially Judge Leah Case lowered the bond for Ebony Wilkerson today from the $1.2 million to $90,000. That`s $25,000 for each of the second-degrees murder charges and $5,000 for each of the third-degree felony child abuse charges.

Wilkerson has to report to pretrial release services. She won`t be allowed to leave Volusia County, and she won`t be allowed to have any contact with her children. Now, that`s not something that I think will come to a shock for anybody.

She`s also going to have to attend therapy with a psychiatrist as well as take medication. She will be tested weekly for that. Wilkerson is being treated with the -- a prescription drug called Haldol.

Now, what we still don`t know is if Ebony Wilkerson can actually pay that bond. It`s going to be roughly $9,000 for her to make that bond of the $90,000.

And as far as the children are concerned, they remain in DCS custody as far as the kids that were involved in the actual incident. Now this newborn that was born in the mental institution just a couple of weeks ago, that child is actually with the father and the estranged husband, Lutful Ronjon. He has been taking care of that child, yet, he has -- he does not have any rights to see the other children at this point.

Now, there is a -- this all took place -- the beginning incident took place March 4. And again as you heard in the clip, Wilkerson saying she felt like her old self again. Well, I think it might it be her old self that kind of got her into this mess.

JACKSON: That`s a good point, Mark. Go ahead.

STARLING: Sure. No, I was just going to say as far as what happens from here, you know, what was her mental stability prior to this? Because like I said, if it was her old self, then what in the world -- you know, where do we stand now? Her old self tried to drive her children into the beach and kill them. So...

JACKSON: Mark, to your point, Her old self was not too mentally stable. But let me ask you this, Mark, because we know the bail went from 1.2 to $90,000. Did the judge give any indication at all what accounted for such a drastic reduction in that bond?

STARLING: You know, I think what it was more than anything, and let`s look at it this way also. Even with this $90,000 bond, it`s 10 percent in order to get out. So that`s $9,000.

She has not even $2 to her name. The husband, Lutful Ronjon, says he has $2,100 that he could contribute to it. So I think it was just -- I hate to say it, but it really just seems like they kind of did it to make things a little more fair for her or to give her a better chance as being able to get out. But honestly, I just don`t see -- we just don`t see how it`s going to happen at this point. She has no money.

JACKSON: You never can tell what family will jump in and what they`ll do in an effort to perhaps, you know, bring her back to her good mental health.

But Mark, thank you so much for your report. I know you`ve been following this from day one and you`re going to continue to follow it for us as we move forward.

So you know, Ebony`s sister called cops just hours before the mom of three tried to drive her van into the Atlantic Ocean. Ebony`s sister wanted a well-being check, saying that her sister Ebony was hearing demons.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t understand why you need a well-being check?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because she`s like having psychosis or something.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like what is she doing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s talking about Jesus and that there`s demons in my house and that I`m trying to control her, but I`m trying to keep them safe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She thinks there`s demons in the house?



JACKSON: Oh, boy. Now we have a caller. We always welcome your calls throughout the night. Bertina, are you with us? You`re from Virginia?

CALLER: Yes, I am.

JACKSON: Go ahead, Bertina. Good to hear from you.

CALLER: OK, well, first of all, I think that all of the children that she do have and the newborn should never go in her possession until she get some serious help and prove that she is a well fit mother.

JACKSON: That`s a very fair point, Bertina. Is there anything else you want to add?

CALLER: Also, that I think that the bond is -- should be set at $90,000. The $1.2 million was outrageous. And if she can`t make it, then she need to stay in there until the family come up with the money.

JACKSON: We always thank you for your comments. Appreciate the call. OK?


JACKSON: Into the Lion`s Den. Now what I want to ask the lions there before they start roaring is could this whole thing have been prevented?

Now, we know that cops did a well-being check, and they decided that they didn`t have enough to hold Ebony, but should cops be making that call? I mean, the problem is, you know, you have officers, and these officers there, are they actually skilled enough to make the evaluation to say, "You know what? I`m going to keep you"? That`s for a mental health professional. I mean I would think.

What say you? So let`s go right out, and I`ve got to start with Simone Bienne -- Simone.

SIMONE BIENNE, BEHAVIORAL EXPERT: I completely agree with you, Joey. Cops cannot give somebody the once over that it would take a psychiatrist hours if not days to assess somebody. So I don`t think cops are equipped to do this.

And what we`ve got to do in this country is we`ve got to see the disease of the brain as relevant as any other disease. They need EFTs close by with at least some kind of psychological, you know, ability to evaluate.

JACKSON: Right on. Wendy Murphy, do you agree or do you disagree with that proposition?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Look, I think that probably some cops are very good at making these kinds of assessments, because they do it all the time. And when a damn, you know, problem case arrives and there are kids in the car, you don`t even really have to think that hard.

I mean, if you`re a cop with a high school diploma, you say kids are in the car. This woman is apparently unsafe. I`ll err on the side of safety.

But look, here`s what`s funny about you asking us the question, Joey. Why don`t we ask the damn cops who let her go and almost drown the kids? Why are we speculating? What don`t we say to those idiots, "What were you thinking? What were you thinking?"

JACKSON: Well, Wendy, here`s what I`ll do. I`m going to go to Marc Harrold, who`s a former cop and now an attorney. But Mark, let me say this to you. I`m not calling police officers idiots at all. I think that they`re overburdened. You have a very difficult job to do. And I just think there`s other people who are mental-health professionals who may be in a better position to make that judgment than an officer who just looks and says, "Hmm, you look OK to me."

So what`s your view on this whole thing, Mark?

MARC HARROLD, ATTORNEY/FORMER POLICE OFFICER: Well, obviously, if the resources were put into it where somebody could be right close by, they could immediately come out and respond, that would be great. You can give increased training to law enforcement officers.

Bottom line is, the law enforcement officer is the one at the other end of that 911 call. They`re the ones that are dispatched with the training that they have. They do the best they can usually. Obviously, there are law enforcement officers that make mistakes, but you`ve got to remember in this country, deprivation of liberty is a big deal. And the way the laws are written to take somebody into protective custody is not just a flip of the coin where you err on the side of caution, take them out, and take them against their will somewhere. Obviously, that`s going to put you for criminal or civil liability on the other side.


JACKSON: Let me get to Ana.

HARROLD: You can blame the cops. But until they change the system, the cop`s in an impossible situation where he`s just supposed to say, "This looks like a bad situation" and take all these people into protective custody.

MURPHY: They could have taken her. The cops could have taken her, and they wouldn`t have gotten in trouble.


JACKSON: I know you guys are rambunctious. Can we take a time-out?

Ana Quincoces, weigh in. Tell me what your point of view is on this. I see you shaking your head. You`re dying to get in here.


JACKSON: Go ahead.

QUINCOCES: I am dying to get in there. Because, you know, first of all, in order to Baker Act somebody or, you know, whatever -- it`s civil involuntary detainment, there are certain criteria. And those criteria cannot be determined by a police officer with, you know, probably not enough training in determining mental illness.

JACKSON: Exactly.

QUINCOCES: You need to be able to say that this person is, you know, incapable of, you know, living their life without supervision. There`s, like, ten different things under this Baker Act, and that kind of thing.

So either they give somebody very special training within the police force -- and I think that would be a great specialty within the force -- but to expect a regular police officer to make this determination by just giving somebody the once-over is unreasonable.

JACKSON: I`m with you. And Anna, we didn`t forget you. All right. We`re coming back to you, Ana, on that Lion`s Den. We value what you have to say.

But coming up, a newborn dies after his mother gives birth in solitary confinement. Is it the jailer`s fault that the baby didn`t survive?

But first much more on the "Ocean Mom," Ebony Wilkerson, who we`ve been talking about. What do you think about the judge reducing her bail? And what should happen to her newborn baby and her three children? I`m taking your calls tonight.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s trying to drive, and I`m trying to stop her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ebony Wilkerson drove her minivan into the ocean with her three children inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told them to close their eyes and go to sleep.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Talking about Jesus and that there`s demons in my house.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s trying to drive, and I`m trying to stop her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ebony Wilkerson drove her minivan into the ocean with her three children inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually told them to close their eyes and go to sleep.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mom, who drove her minivan into the Atlantic Ocean with three kids inside, has just become a mother again.


JACKSON: So witnesses rescued Ebony and her kids from the van, but they said that she wasn`t acting like a normal person. Listen to what one witness said about it.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had this look on her face. I can`t describe it. It`s just an awful blank look like spaced out look.


JACKSON: Now, we`ve heard reports that Ebony`s lawyers plan to pursue an insanity plea, but will it work? And more importantly should she even be prosecuted for attempted second-degree murder?

So Anna Yum, I know you were chomping at the bit before. I get to you now. You`re a defense attorney. Obviously, her mental status is very much at issue in this case, Anna. How would you defend it in the event it moves forward to prosecution? And should she even be prosecuted, given the lapse by the police in really potentially preventing what occurred here?

ANNA YUM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right, Joey. I really think this case is going to come down to the battle of the experts, as it always is with "not guilty by reason of insanity" pleas.

I mean, at the end of the day, we have to see was there any kind of indicia of intent for her to kill? Did she really believe that she was saving her children from demons? Or did she have this intent to kill, with her diary entries in the past? Did she confide in other people that she wanted to harm her children, per se?

I think all those factors are going to come in and, of course, the experts are really going to have to test whether she knew the difference between right or wrong at the time of the attempted killing, so to speak, or whether she even knew the nature of her conduct.

I mean, the people said that when they tried to rescue her, she looked possessed. And that`s obviously going to weigh in favor of the defense.

JACKSON: You better believe it will.

MURPHY: She really was talking to the devil.


BIENNE: She was pregnant. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I have compassion for the woman, because I don`t think anybody took her seriously. And if she had sought help earlier during the 14 years of abusive marriage that she was in, then maybe this could have been avoided.

And let`s -- we don`t even know whether she had postpartum, as well. She could have had postpartum depression, PTSD, depression. There`s all these issues in there.

JACKSON: Simone, you really put it in perspective.

MURPHY: How about we save the sympathy -- why don`t we save the sympathy for some case that hasn`t yet happened and knock off the nonsense about this woman who already did her bad deed?

It`s good to understand why people do what they do, but she almost killed her children. Yes, maybe she could have gotten a tune-up sooner, but guess what? She didn`t. They almost died. That`s a crime.

OK, we don`t give out discounts because she didn`t get her medication right.


BIENNE: ... 14 years. She was a good mother. She protected those children. She could have gotten them out of the -- domestic violence situation.

MURPHY: She wasn`t protecting them that day.

BIENNE: Well, she was -- no, clearly, she wasn`t.



JACKSON: Here`s the reality. Anna, here`s the reality.

BIENNE: She was having psychological episodes.

JACKSON: Anna Yum. Listen, Anna Yum, when we look at...

YUM: I`m going to try to get a word in edgewise.

JACKSON: Can I get some order in the court? Can I get some order? Look, Anna Yum, when it comes down to it, we can talk about she wasn`t an effective mother. We can talk about she wasn`t effective that day. But Anna, there were signs here, and those signs pointed to someone who wasn`t well. And it could have been prevented. So now should we be prosecuting her for attempted second-degree murder and saying that, "Oh, she was fine. She wasn`t insane"? How should this be handled, Anna Yum?

YUM: That`s absolutely right Joey. My biggest concern with this case is that her sister -- I mean, what else could her sister have done in this situation? She took the keys from her sister to try to prevent her from leaving. She called 911. She checked herself into the hospital. She wanted to make sure that these kids were healthy and protected from her own mother, because this mother was hearing voices and thought that there were demons in the house. I mean, this is a situation that clearly, from what we can see right now, screams of mental insanity here.

JACKSON: Ana Quincoces, do you agree? Ana Quincoces, do you agree?

QUINCOCES: Yes, I agree. I think that this is different from the Schenecker case. I think that in this case, there is mental illness.

But you know, I need to go back to this seems to be a thing now. You know, trying to kill your kids. I had postpartum depression. I can talk as a lawyer and as a mom. I never wanted to kill any -- well, maybe I wanted to kill my ex-husband, but I definitely didn`t want to kill...

JACKSON: Behave yourself, Ana.

QUINCOCES: I think that we need to -- we need to find some kind of maybe a mental health assessment done after each child. This woman had four children. How does a woman with mental illness have four children?

And also she was taking Haldol. So why don`t they test her every month to determine whether she`s still taking her medication?

JACKSON: Absolutely.

QUINCOCES: My 13-year-old daughter had to take monthly tests because of Accutane and pregnancy tests and blood tests. So, you know, I think so much more needs to be done to prevent this kind of thing happening because it`s happening way too often, as we can see in the news.

JACKSON: Without question. And here`s the reality: She was mentally ill. Obviously, there was something amiss. Could it have been prevented? Certainly, what could the police have done in order to avoid this? Certainly, criminals need to go to jail, but is she a criminal in the classic sense of the word? We`re going to discuss this much more. Don`t go anywhere. When we return.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She definitely tried to kill her children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ebony Wilkerson drove a minivan filled with her children into the Atlantic Ocean.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We thought it was just a joke. You know, hey, they`re having a good time. Then it became clear, they were screaming for help.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw her bail right out the window, and the kids were still in the car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw a little kid in the back, like waving his arms around, like, screaming, "Help! Help us!"

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Watching them carry the kids out of the van was very emotional. Waves were just pounding into the water and down until it submerged.


JACKSON: So according to her lawyer, after Ebony was taken into custody for allegedly trying to kill her three children, she was caught pounding her own pregnant belly with her fist. She was moved to a mental health facility as a result. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She allegedly was beating herself on the stomach, and she`s seven months pregnant. And that prompted the jail to contact Halifax and get her over for a Baker Act evaluation.


JACKSON: Now, one of the conditions for lowering Ebony`s bail, of course, is even if she makes that bail and is released she can`t see her kids. But is she a child abuser?

So Marc Harrold, I want to go out to you. In evaluating this, clearly there`s something psychologically wrong with her. What would you do if you were representing or attempting to protect her from the state? Is she a classic child abuser? Was she having a bad day? Was she having a psychotic episode? What would be the best defense that you could put toward so that she doesn`t get hung up with an attempted second-degree murder charge, Mark?

HARROLD: Well, I think you`re definitely going to go with diminished capacity or insanity in this case, that she was detached from reality and didn`t know right from wrong.

But going back to another thing, what was mentioned before, this idea of whether she should have been charged, the charges sound correct. The probable cause appears to be there for the arrest, and they`ve moved forward. Those are affirmative defenses that she`ll likely raise. She`ll get an attorney who should raise defenses.

If they feel that they can`t meet the elements of the crime, because she didn`t have the criminal intent or she -- again, she detached from reality. She was insane, diminished capacity. The fact that they charged her doesn`t surprise me. Those are defenses that she can present when the time comes about.

JACKSON: Absolutely. Josh from Kentucky, you`ve been waiting on the line. We appreciate you. Thanks for calling.

What do you have to say, Josh?

CALLER: Well, I`ll tell you what? I`ve got all kinds of things to say, but you know, I think in the main thing, I don`t think that anybody in their right mind, no matter whether they`re having a bad day or what kind of day they`re having -- you know, I mean, like the lady up top in the corner said earlier, you know, she may have went through a 14-year abusive marriage. Well, my mom went through a 26-year abusive marriage, and she never drove us into no ocean, lake or pond or whatever. You know what I mean?

JACKSON: It`s a point well made. It`s a point well made, Josh. Simone Bienne, I want to go back to you, because he references what you have to say. Briefly, Simone, do you think ultimately she prevails on an insanity defense here?

BIENNE: I want her to get an insanity defense, and I would like to see her prosecuted but not guilty. Because guess what? Then she has a chance of making a recovery.

She needs to be tested every month. And she needs to be looked after by the mental health system. Otherwise, Joey, what we`re doing is we`re turning our back on her. If she walks away, then she`s in exactly the same situation. And this woman should not be in the same situation, nor should her children.

JACKSON: And to Simone, I say very well stated. The Lion`s Den, great work. They`re staying, not going anywhere.

But next, a mother locked up in solitary confinement gives birth, only to have her newborn die a short time later. She says she begged for medical attention and guess what? She got none. Is the jail at fault for her baby not surviving? We`re addressing it.


JACKSON: Tonight, escalating outrage after the tragic death of a newborn baby delivered inside a jail cell. This pregnant inmate says that she was locked up in solitary confinement, given only a mat, repeatedly ignored while she was in labor, and forced to deliver the baby alone.

Nicole Guerrero was arrested in 2012 for drug possession in Texas. Nine days later while in custody, a doctor told her that she was eight-and-a- half months pregnant. When she returned to jail, she claims that she started suffering severe pain and cramping in court documents.

Nicole says that she registered -- she went to the registered nurse on duty, right? She did that and after that, she said look, "I have to see a doctor. Take me to a doctor." They didn`t even believe her. They didn`t believe that she was having a baby at the time. Nicole claims she was pushed, pushed. The medical -- she pushed the medical emergency button. She pleaded over and over again but she was ignored until 3:30 a.m.

She says that officers told her that her labor-like symptoms were due to her prescription medication and then they locked her up in solitary confinement. Around 5:00 a.m. that morning a detention officer walked by her cell and helped her to deliver the baby. The inmate claims that her baby was born with the umbilical cord around her neck, not breathing and appeared dark purple. She says that no one tried to revive that beautiful baby.

We did reach out to the Wichita County Sheriff`s office, also the nurse on duty that day, and the correctional health care management facility but we haven`t received a call back.

We`ve got a fantastic "Lion`s Den" panel ready to debate. But first out to our exclusive guest; it`s Nicole Guerrero`s, attorney, it`s Rick Bunch.

Rick thank you so much for joining us tonight to talk about this issue. And I have to ask you, Rick, was the hospital, excuse me, was the facility, the corrections facility aware that your client was pregnant, and if they were aware, however could she end up in solitary confinement and be ignored as the claims are made -- being made here?

Could you take us through it, Rick?

RICK BUNCH, ATTORNEY FOR NICOLE GUERRERO: Sure. Well, first of all, she - - they certainly knew she was pregnant. She was obviously pregnant. There was visible signs of her being pregnant. And they actually took her to her OB-GYN the day before the baby was delivered and so they had guards that took her out there and brought her back so they knew she was pregnant. She had been in jail -- this had been nine or ten days when this occurred.

JACKSON: So Rick, if -- if they -- right, if they knew she was pregnant, do you just then throw her in solitary confinement? I mean what procedures were in place or lack of procedures were in place at the time that allowed this to even happen?

BUNCH: Well, to correct one part of it, she wasn`t immediately put in solitary cell. What they do is she was in general population when she first started having trouble and they made enough noise to the people that they got the jailer`s attention and they moved her to a solitary cell next to the nurses` station. But it`s a cage-like thing from my understanding. And they gave her a mat and just kind of went through the paces with her.

She had the late night nurse had come on and had lots of duties to do, and seemed to be preoccupied with other things other than Nicole`s desperate situation.

JACKSON: Well, apparently so. I mean, I have your complaint here. And I`m looking at it as we speak. You know, factually, it reads like a horror story. And so, have you had an opportunity to speak to the officials? I suspect there will be depositions where you interview and talk to people about what they did or didn`t do. What are they saying about their actions or inaction that would make a baby die?

BUNCH: Well, the county has had a history of some problems with their medical care. This is the fifth death in eight years. And, of course, the others were adults -- wasn`t any babies involved. But Wichita County jail runs about 500 inmates and the system there calls for the use of LVNs, vocational nurses to do medical care. They expect the LVNs to act as doctors, and LVNs are not supposed to (inaudible) on anything without supervision. And -- yes.

JACKSON: Right. Here`s my issue even beyond that. If you have these people who are responsible for care in the event that your client says "I`m cramping, I`m in pain, I`m bleeding, I need assistance," is that not the time for the facility to reach out to someone who`s more qualified who can get her that care?

BUNCH: Oh, absolutely. And you know, the problem is that there is -- there`s been a line of deciding what to do. It usually goes from the jail guard. The jail guard has something to ask the nurse. The nurse has to ask a doctor on call. And it`s usually the process they go through.

Here the nurse wasn`t readily available for the jail guards to talk to, until she made her rounds back down to Nicole`s cell.

JACKSON: In addition to seeking damages which are obviously monetary, it`s not going to bring the baby back, Rick, we understand that.


JACKSON: But what can be done by way of moving forward? You just laid out that five others died. In this lawsuit, what else can be done so that this never happens again? Will they change the policy? Will they change the regulation? What are they going to do in light of this?

BUNCH: Well, the county has changed their policies throughout the eight years. They`ve made some adjustments and things. But they did it kicking and screaming. But they still use the LVNs instead of registered nurses. They leave these LVNs unsupervised. And they -- they`re forcing these LVNs to make medical decisions they`re not qualified or trained to make. In addition to that, there`s been some times when nurses do things they shouldn`t be doing, and when nurses report it, they get in trouble.

JACKSON: That`s absolutely crazy.

I want to go to a caller now. We have Rhonnie from California. What do you have to say about this?

RHONNIE, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): Hello. Hi.

JACKSON: Rhonnie?

RHONNIE: Hi. Yes, this is Rhonnie Harris.

JACKSON: Hi, Rhonnie. I can`t really hear you. Can you turn the volume down so that we can listen to your comment? We`re glad you called but I want to be able to talk to you.

RHONNIE: Ok, is this better?

JACKSON: Yes, much better. Hi, Rhonnie.

RHONNIE: Yes, I personally just feel like it`s the fault of the people at the jail -- the guards. They -- part of their training is to have like basic CPR and first aid training. I think that them knowing that they had a pregnant prisoner that was near having birth, they should have prepped their self worst case scenario, do we know first aid CPR for an infant or a child. That`s a part of their job should something happen.

So they`re 100% responsible for what happened with that baby. And they should be held responsible for that.

JACKSON: Rhonnie -- thank you so much for calling, Rhonnie. We appreciate you and we appreciate all of our viewers who weigh in and who call to speak to us about these issues.

Now Nicole claims that the nurse on duty did very little to help her after giving birth. She says that the nurse entered the quote, "cage that she was in" several minutes -- several minutes later and wrapped the baby in a towel. As if that`s going to do much good then, quote, "did not make any attempt to revive her by CPR or any method at all" although the baby was unresponsive and had dark purple complexion.

Watch this national geographic documentary about pregnant inmates giving birth behind bars.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this prison, pregnant inmates are treated like everyone else.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like they`d have a whole little pregnancy area and you know just totally different. Not really mixed in with general population. I was nervous about that at first.

As it`s getting closer, it`s getting worse. I can`t do anything about it. So I have to try to deal with it.

I have to take it one day at a time.


JACKSON: So sad. Now, right now, Nicole is serving time in prison -- state prison for drug possession charges. Now, while the mother may or may not be a criminal, right, her baby was totally innocent.

So I want to go out to the "Lion`s Den" and I want to ask you, look, criminals certainly should be held accountable for their crimes, Wendy Murphy, but was enough done to save this innocent baby`s life in this particular situation -- Wendy?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, this is such an easy call for me. I don`t even know how we`re going to debate this. First of all let me clear to anybody watching, I take these cases. I`ve represented pregnant women in prison. They are so profoundly mistreated. This is a grotesque example of. And in fact, sometimes far along pregnant women how have drug addiction problems are held a little bit longer than they should be because some of these states have the policies of oh, let`s lock her up for her drug problem, get her clean before the baby`s gone which is really a bad policy, unconstitutional, frankly and it`s happening all over this country.

Of course, they did nothing right. You know how difficult it is to give birth even in good circumstances?

JACKSON: It`s horrible, I know.

MURPHY: It`s in a damn jail cell. (AUDIO GAP) That`s a good lawsuit. Wish it were mine.

JACKSON: Anna Yum, I saw you shaking your head Ana. Is there any defense the hospital has here, Anna Yum with regard to how do you defend this or do they just settle and move on?

ANNA YUM, ATTORNEY: At this point Joey, they better be prepared to open their checkbook and write a big fat check if these facts are true. I mean this is ridiculous. Why was a doctor not called to see this lady? It`s not like she`s three months pregnant and she`s complaining of labor pains. She`s eight and a half months pregnant, 34 weeks. Yet, this nurse is saying oh, it`s ok. It`s because of the prescription medication?

That`s ridiculous to me. This case makes me so angry. I think that she should be fairly compensated. Although it`s not going to bring the baby back, this sends a message that something needs to be done; that there has to be some sort of uniformity as to how prisons and jails treat pregnant women.

JACKSON: Well, stated Anna Yum.

Switching gears, next the red carpet slap seen around the world. You don`t strike the face of Brad Pitt and get away with it, do you? We`ll show you the stunt that landed an infamous prankster in real hot water coming up in a moment.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: 23-year-old David Paul has no problem handling waste -- the organic kind. His inspiration can be linked back to his rural roots in Wisconsin.

DAVID PAUL: I went to a commercial urban agriculture program in Milwaukee, Wisconsin called Growing Power. There I was introduced to the concept of this model of composting in our urban areas.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s why he started a company which redirects about 6,000 pounds of waste from local landfills into nutrient rich soil for Atlanta urban farmers.

PAUL: We prefer to do compost because it`s free if you do it yourself or work with companies like Compost Wheels.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: With a five-gallon pail, Paul manages to make a big impact. Clients simply fill it up with waste.

PAUL: The coffee grounds, tea bags, paper towel, produce scraps, fruit and vegetable waste.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Then he picks it up right at your doorstep.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for what you`re doing.

PAUL: Thanks, Patty.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But for Paul, this is much more than just turning your spoil into soil.

PAUL: We`re talking to residents of the neighborhoods that we`re in and talking about their backyard compost piles.

When asked if I`m an eco-warrior, I would say absolutely yes. I am an eco- warrior. I`m contributing to the benefit of our environment by getting rid of this organic material from the landfills and putting it into community agriculture.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It happened at the premiere of partner Angelina Jolie`s new film "Maleficent", Brad Pitt signing autographs for fans when suddenly a man swings at the superstar.

VITALII SEDIUK, RED CARPET PRANKSTER: As I said, the feeling it just first came to my mind.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vitalii Sediuk, a 25-year-old Ukrainian TV host who is notorious in Hollywood for his red carpet crashing antics.

SEDIUK: So I did all that as fast as possible and then I was kicked out.


JACKSON: Not the face. Please, anything but the face. Brad Pitt as you know voted "People`s" sexiest man alive. Not once but twice. He should really think about ensuring his moneymaker and fast.

Brad who`s best known for his blockbuster movies and being Angelina Jolie`s life partner was recently with his lovely lady at the movie premiere for "Maleficent". That`s where cops say a man jumped over a metal guardrail and attacked the actor reportedly punching or slapping him in the face.

Thankfully, Brad Pitt well, he`s just fine. Cops identified the assailant as 25-year-old Vitalii Sediuk, a notorious red carpet crasher who made a name for himself performing crazy pranks on red carpets all over the world.

Are you ready for this? Sediuk has managed to kiss Will Smith, climb under America Ferrera`s dress, crashed Adele`s Grammy acceptance speech, and awkwardly leg-hugged actors Bradley Cooper and Leonardo DiCaprio. And you know what -- that`s not even half of everything he`s done.

So how has one man managed to get so close to so many celebrities? Well, he apparently used to work for 1+1 which is a Ukrainian television station. Now, I said that he used to work, right, for that station because he was fired after his stunt with America Ferrera earlier this year.

Straight out to entertainment reporter Jasmine Simpkins -- Jasmine, I have to ask you, tell us about this bizarre attack on Brad Pitt who`s ok and the protective restraining order that`s now in place to protect Brad Pitt from this, well, there could be many choice names but apparently he`s not well. Take it from there, Jasmine.

JASMINE SIMPKINS, ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: Well, police, you know, LAPD did what they were supposed to do. The man is now, you know, under investigation for allegedly attacking Brad, and I have to say, well done. It`s about time that, you know, action is being taken place against this individual. He makes a bad name for reporters out here all over the world who really do their job and trying to do a thorough job of actually interviewing celebrities on red carpets. We`re not there to go under their dresses and needlessly slap them in the face. It`s uncalled for. I`m so excited that finally some action is being taken against him.

JACKSON: It`s so true -- Jasmine. And you think about it, I mean it could have been, you know, -- we have the pleasure of laughing about it now but what if something more severe happened or if he had a weapon or decided to do something even crazier than that? So I do agree and applause for actually getting this under control.

But could it have been prevented? I mean, could security have done something? How could this happen, Jasmine?

SIMPKINS: Well, I think what`s going to happen now is a lot of these PR companies and a lot of movie studios are going to take a closer look at who they`re credentialing to come on to carpets. They`re going to really, really take a hard look at the outlets and they`re probably going to be a little bit stiffer in who they allow to come on carpets because this thing could become a trend.

We might see more guys or gals, you know, unfortunately, trying to pull these types of stunts. It`s just really unfortunate but I think that their people are going to start putting their foot down on the side of the movie studios and beef up security.

You know, you might even see some metal detectors and things of that nature for a little while just to make sure that`s this doesn`t become a trend.

JACKSON: I hope, Jasmine, we see metal detectors for a long while because when you look at something like this and to your point, you have copycats out there who say, you know what -- he did it, he`s getting all this press and publicity. Let me try it, too. So it could get more serious.

And you really look at this and you say thank goodness that Brad is ok, particularly with that beautiful family he has and everything else. Who needs this, Jasmine?

SIMPKINS: Well, the thing of it is, is that, you know, Brad could have done the same thing that Will did. Will retaliated and he slapped him. What if Brad Pitt had actually punched the man back? I mean it could have turned into an awful situation. A lawsuit could have ensued.

I just think that thankfully Brad took the high road. He continued to enjoy the carpet and make it all about Angelina and her new movie. But it`s really unfortunate that he had to come to his partner`s premiere and have to have something so unfortunate happen.

JACKSON: Exactly. It`s so true. And what I hope Jasmine is that he moves forward. And we know, he`s a wonderful person, a gentleman and a humanitarian. What I really do hope, Jasmine, is that he moves forward with the prosecution, so that this guy, number one, could get what he has coming to him as far as jail time. And number two to send a deterrent to any other person that they won`t do this. So he really needs to follow up on this, wouldn`t you think, Jasmine?

SIMPKINS: Oh, he really does. And I`m hoping that this guy doesn`t get a job working for any outlet any time soon. I hope he`s flagged and banned not only from carpets. We know he can no longer go to any L.A. live outlet or venue. And I hope that trickles into numerous other venues and also no other outlet decides to hire him for a very long time. He`s not a true journalist, and he doesn`t represent what journalism and reporting is all about.

JACKSON: Amen to that.

It takes a bad name and it gives a bad name to all those journalists who are out there doing their work, doing it so well. And reporting and bringing us the celebrities as they have their premieres and everything else.

A lot more about Brad Pitt, a lot more about what`s going to happen to his attacker -- when we return.


SEDIUK: I just said those feelings, it just -- what first came to my mind. I tried to do that as fast as possible, and then I was kicked out.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the man lunged, security moved in, quickly taking him down. He was cuffed, police identified him as Vitalii Sediuk, a 25-year-old who is notorious in Hollywood for his red carpet crashing antics.


JACKSON: Sediuk`s attack on Brad Pitt is just the latest in a long line of recent pranks that he`s responsible for. Just last week Sediuk was in Cannes, France when he snuck on to a red carpet and managed to put his head under actress America Ferrera`s dress. That`s the prank that allegedly cost him his job.

And then earlier this year, Sediuk managed to get a little too close for comfort to actors Bradley Cooper and Leonardo DiCaprio. Just look at this picture. That`s Sediuk. His face is awfully close to Bradley Cooper -- you understand.

Ana Quincoces, I want to go to you on this. Where`s security out there on all of this? I mean, you know, this is really too close to call and I know this ended well Anna but you know, it could have been disaster.

ANA QUINCOCES, ATTORNEY: Oh God forgive me for boo-hooing this. I mean look, there are certain perks to certain jobs and I think that these people have the adoration of their fans. They have a lot of money. They can take care of their own security detail. I think it`s great to set a precedent so it doesn`t happen again. But, you know, there`s --

JACKSON: Ana, we appreciate it, we have to go.

Good night. Nancy Grace -- she`s next.