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Alaska Family of 4 Disappears; Pastor Charged with Murder, Claims Self-Defense; Inside the Minds of the Killer Couple

Aired June 10, 2014 - 19:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, breaking news as a family of four vanishes into thin air. It`s a mystery that`s confounded cops. And now

the FBI is involved. Did somebody abduct this beautiful young family, including two little girls? And even the family dog? If so, why?

It turns out the missing woman`s sister had a very ominous conversation with her right before she vanished.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live. Thanks for joining me.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no idea what`s going on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On May 27, 37-year-old Brandon Jividen, 22-year-old Rebecca, or Becca, Adams and her two daughters, 5-year-old Michele and 3-

year-old Jaracca Hundley, went missing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A missing person`s investigation, and it`s been a top priority.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... them to be found. I want to know that they`re OK, that the girls are OK. I want them home.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beautiful children. Cops say this family of four -- Brandon Jividen, his girlfriend, Rebecca Adams, and her two gorgeous

daughters, ages 3 and 5 -- went missing exactly two weeks ago today. Rebecca`s sister says she talked to the missing woman right before she



LANELL ADAMS, REBECCA`S SISTER: There are so many loose ends right now.

Her and her boyfriend`s phones have been off. Her neighbors haven`t seen her. Nobody has seen her. Their vehicles are still parked. Their

belongings are still in their home. I have a message on my home phone of her and the girls singing happy -- happy birthday. And I keep listening to

that as much as I can.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We were supposed to talk to her. We heard the FBI has just taken her phone.

Investigators say the couple left both cars behind. They did not pack any bags. They didn`t even take her wallet. They live in a rugged, wooded

area in Alaska. And they vanished without taking any camping gear. Their cell phones have been turned off, and even the family dog is missing.

In another very disturbing twist, a neighbor tells us she begged cops to check on the family, just a few days after they went missing. But she

claims cops waited several days after that to start searching for them. Did law enforcement drop the ball?

I want you to help us solve this mystery. Call me: 1-877-JVM [SIC], with your theories. That`s 1-877-586-7297. We have a fantastic Lion`s Den

debate panel ready to figure this out.

But first straight out to Laurel Andrews, a reporter for the "Alaska Dispatch." You`re all over this case. What`s the very latest? Are there

theories circulating tonight about what might have happened?

LAUREL ANDREWS, REPORTER, "ALASKA DISPATCH" (via phone): Well, right now the police are holding their daily press briefing. When I spoke with

police yesterday, they said that there`s a heightened concerned regarding their missing status. But they don`t have enough information at this time

to say that foul play is involved. And that they continue to go down all avenues of the investigation. The family has also -- I spoke with Lanell

Adams, Rebecca Adams` sister, as well, and she told me that the family doesn`t have any idea as to what might have happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, look, I`ll tell you right now, there`s foul play suspected. Let me be the first, if police aren`t saying that. Four people

don`t just disappear in Alaska without taking their cars, when they have a 5- and a 3-year-old, and just vanish into the woods with their dog. It

doesn`t make any sense.

You know, when cops say, "Oh, no foul play suspected," it actually makes my blood boil, Joe Gomez, reporter KRLD, Dallas, especially when the neighbors

said that they waited several days after she said -- begged them to start looking for them.

JOE GOMEZ, REPORTER, KRLD: Right. This is very strange, Jane. Almost like something out of "The Twilight Zone."

How could four people just mysteriously vanish all at once? The family`s cars in the driveway. Their house inside seemed to be untouched. They

didn`t bring anything with them: wallets, any food, any belongings they would need for a camping trip. So what exactly happened?

It boggles my mind. I wonder if somebody came into the house, if there was some kind of conflict, if they were perhaps taken that way. Did they just

suddenly up and leave? Are they running from something? That`s another possibility. I mean, perhaps there`s jealously involved here. Right?

Perhaps that Adams had, you know, a former lover. The biological father of her children or somebody who was upset. There`s so many possibilities.

And we just don`t know at this point. And that`s what`s so distressing, Jane. I wonder why the police are playing this so close to the chest right


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we all know, everybody who watches our show, this channel, this isn`t the first time an entire family has vanished without a

trace. We all remember the McStay family. Joseph, his wife Summer, and their two adorable young sons disappeared in February of 2010 without

packing, without -- they left food right on the table. Their two dogs left outside with no food or water.

Investigators thought they spotted the family crossing the border to Mexico on surveillance video. The family`s car was found abandoned near the


And then tragically, three years later, the bodies of all four McStays, including 3- and 4-year-old boys -- their 3- and 4-year-old boys -- were

found buried in California`s Mojave Desert. Listen to this.


PATRICK MCSTAY, JOSEPH MCSTAY`S FATHER: I`ve been consumed with knowing something happened to them, that this was not -- that the San Diego

Sheriff`s Department was out there only doing whatever they felt they could do that would fit with their little theory. And prove that they

voluntarily walked away. Because the only thing you ever heard out of them, or you ever saw, was that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The McStay murder case remains unsolved until this day. We don`t know who killed the family of four. They could have been abducted

from their home. But there was no sign of a real struggle. They could have been running away from somebody they were afraid. It turns out they

had good reason to be afraid, because they all ended up dead.

Straight out to the phone lines. Carol, Indiana, what do you have to say about this mystery in Alaska?

CALLER: Yes. I would like to know if maybe these two cases are related. Because of the disappearance is in the same manner.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s an interesting theory. Brian Claypool, criminal defense attorney, there are striking parallels. A family of four,

each have two kids. One two boys, one two girls. They both vanish, leaving their house as if they were going out to get the mail and come

right back. Is it possible, even though there are two totally different states, that there could be a connection?

BRIAN CLAYPOOL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, I don`t really think there is a connection between the two. I think it`s really, really

impossible for these two cases to be related.

Here`s what we need to do. We have a lot of information we have to gather with Rebecca and Brandon. For example, did either of them work? If they

worked, did they ask for time off from work? If they did ask for time off from work, then I don`t think this is an abduction.

Another thing we`ve got to be looking at, Jane, is was there any issue with CPS? Any issues with the children? Were these two trying to get away from

something? For example, that they`d maybe abused the kids, maybe somebody threatened to take the kids.

Also, is there any dispute going on between the two of them? Is there any dispute going on with a third person?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me go back to Laurel Andrews, a reporter with "The Alaska Dispatch." I studied this, and we`ve got our senior producer, who`s

going to report on what she found in terms of a background check in a second.

But Laurel, it definitely sounds you`re in Alaska, because there`s a little bit of crackling on the phone line. Did this guy have a job? Did she have

a job? How did they survive?

ANDREWS: You know, I`m not sure what Jividen`s occupation was. Lanell Adams told me yesterday that Rebecca Adams was a stay-at-home mother. So

that`s about all I can tell you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s all you know. You don`t know anything. Describe the area where they live.

ANDREWS: They live in a community -- the community of Kenai is southwest of Anchorage on the Sterling Highway. It`s a community of about 7,000

people, and where they lived was quite close to Cook Inlet, which is the large body of water that runs all the way up to Anchorage.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell us about the search. What are they doing? I understand they`ve got dogs, that they`re searching the woods behind the

house, because this man used to go with his dog back into those woods. Tell us about the search.

ANDREWS: Yes, that`s correct. They have a couple teams of rescue canines that are searching wooded trail -- wooded areas and trails around the

neighborhood. They also have an Alaska state trooper`s helicopter that was being used to search the area.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. And we don`t know what kind of dog. Let`s go out to the phone lines, because a lot of people are coming up with theories.

Lindsey, Alabama, what do you have to say?

CALLER: Hi. My question is this. I mean, I have a Chihuahua that would die to save my 6-year-old`s life if someone came in our house or tried to

break in. I`m curious if they had an older dog, what kind of dog do they have?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Laurel, do you have any idea what kind of dog they have? Because I know I was reading the research, did not have that question

answered in our research.

ANDREWS: I do not have the answer to that question. I apologize.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go to Selin Darkalstanian, a senior producer on this show. You`ve been digging. What have you found?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: That`s right, Jane. We`ve been digging all day on the background of both the girlfriend and the mom and her

boyfriend. We have the papers right here.

And what`s interesting is that neither of them have major criminal backgrounds. You know, in a lot of these cases, we look and we find, you

know, 20, 30 cases. In this situation, she has -- she got a fix-it ticket for a broken taillight. She was driving with a suspended license. He got

a DUI last year. But aside from those things, we didn`t find anything major.

Now, the only interesting thing that we did find when we pulled up his record, which I`m holding right here, he was an avid hunter, it appears.

He has multiple hunting and fishing licenses. He`s lived in a few different states. And every state he has been in, he`s gotten a hunting

and a fishing license.

So that makes you wonder, you know, did he own a gun? Did he have a gun on him when they went missing? You know, that kind of presents a whole

another side to this as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you make of it, Evangeline Gomez, criminal defense attorney?

EVANGELINE GOMEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: First of all, Jane, I`m very disappointed it took authorities about four days to follow up on -- a

couple days to follow up on a tip. I think this family should immediately look into hiring private investigators to try to find out exactly where

this family may be.

No. 2, what I think is really key in this situation is the conversation that Rebecca allegedly had with her sister, whereby she told her she loved

her and she also tried to dodge some truth in it. I think that`s very telling.

And the FBI is involved. So there`s something else going on that we don`t know for the FBI to get involved in this type of case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You hear and you see Dr. Gabe Crenshaw, psychologist, taking all this in.

On the other side of the break, we`re going to tell you more about the conversation the sister had with the woman who disappeared, the mother of

these two children, and get his analysis. What profile is emerging as we put together the pieces of this puzzle?

Don`t forget to check out our Facebook page. And please, do me a favor, like it while you`re there, OK? That would be something I`d appreciate

very much. Go to

We`re just getting started with this mystery. Where did a family of four disappear to? Did cops drop the ball?


ADAMS: I want to know they`re OK. That the girls are OK. I want them home.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An unusual set of circumstances surrounding the family`s disappearance, one that has police worried and families suspecting

foul play.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look at that beautiful family. Now, the missing woman`s sister spoke to her just days before she vanished. Listen to this.


ADAMS: She had called me a couple weeks ago. She sounded distressed. She had to get off the phone quickly. She couldn`t tell me what was wrong.

Told me she just wanted me to know that she loved me, and I haven`t heard from her since.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Gabe Crenshaw, psychologist, what does that tell you, Dr. Gabe?

DR. GABE CRENSHAW, PSYCHOLOGIST: It tells me foul play. I suspect foul play.

You know, there`s a lot going on here, Jane. The father with his hunting expertise, et cetera. The family`s all packed up. Theoretically, they

could live off the land, because he knows what he`s doing. I`m just wondering. I don`t want to go Hollywood with it, but there`s so many

things that could be at stake here.

I mean, they could be in some sort of witness protection that we know nothing about. There could be some sort of family pact, a ritual that they

have decided. Every family has them, as we know them. We call them rules and they`re narratives and oscillating (ph) any number of things that we

call them as psychologists.

So all of this could be going on, and we know nothing about it. They do, we don`t. It looks suspicious, maybe it`s not. But I think it is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think it`s absolutely suspicious and that`s why I get irritated when the cops are like no evidence of foul play. I mean,


CRENSHAW: Well, you know what?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen to this -- let me add a couple of facts, and I want to go right back to you, because there are some other little pieces. He`s

-- Brandon is 15 years older than his girlfriend, Rebecca Adams, who is the mother of the two children. They`ve been together for almost two years.

And he does have a very short criminal record.

He was arrested for DUI, driving while intoxicated, last year. That`s all that comes up.

So the neighbor told us he does not drive now. Any time they drive, she drives. So I want to go back to you, Dr. Gabe. Now you add, is it

possible that he has a drinking problem? We don`t know that. But if he got a DUI, there`s a good chance that he might.

CRENSHAW: Yes, he could. But, you know what? You don`t pick up your family and go walking through the woods. You know, this doesn`t make sense

to me. There`s something going on.

The police know probably more than what they`re saying right now. Maybe that`s a good thing. We don`t always know what law enforcement -- the mind

of law enforcement is.

But if you`re going to leave, and you`ve got a 5-year-old and a 3-year-old, there are things that, you know, a mother with proper attachment thinks

about. What are my kids going to do? How are they going to eat? How are we going to provide for them? Where are they going to sleep? What are

they wearing? It`s hard to live off the land.

There`s something awry, and we all know it. And you know what, given everything that`s been happening in our world these days, with mothers

killing their kids or people going off and fathers going berserk, we have every reason -- there`s a heightened sense of awareness about what`s

happening with our families.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Evangeline Gomez, the report shows that they -- that he was a hunter, so he would have weapons, very likely, because he has at

least a half a dozen hunting licenses. So that adds another puzzle to the equation, if -- I think they`ve got to find out if any of those weapons are

missing from his garage or wherever he keeps them.

E. GOMEZ: Yes. You know, did he potentially shoot somebody while he was out hunting and feel like he needs to flee, he needs to run? Maybe they`re

in hiding. Maybe they took enough cash with them to buy, you know, food for the children, clothing for the children, for themselves, and they`re

just trying to be untraceable; they`re trying to disappear.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian Claypool.

CLAYPOOL: Yes. Jane, I agree. It`s clear to me that this family is running from something. Rebecca`s comments in that last phone call appear

to me to be that she`s voluntarily leaving the home and going somewhere. She didn`t sound like she was in distress. Another thing too...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, she did. Excuse me, yes she did.

CLAYPOOL: What she said -- No, she said, "I love you."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That door was open. No, the sister said that she sounded distressed and -- here, I`ll read it exactly. "She sounded very

distressed. She told me, `Know that I love you.` And she said she had to get off the phone quickly. I asked her, `Thou shalt not lie, Becca. Are

you OK?` She said, `Don`t ask me that right now. Just know that I love you`." Come on! That says something.

CRENSHAW: That`s a call for help. And that`s a call for distress.

CLAYPOOL: That`s not a situation where she is in grave danger of being killed.

CRENSHAW: How do you know?

CLAYPOOL: That`s a situation where he has decided, "I`m taking you and the kids somewhere." And here`s another thing, Jane...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. One second, one second.

J. GOMEZ: I think we can all agree. I think we can all agree that they`re running from something. It seems like they`re fleeing from something.

I mean, the thing about it is, these two little girls have different last names. That suggests to me that there`s somebody else involved. They have

a different father.

I want to know where he`s at. I want to know, what`s his involvement in all of this? Was there some outside threat that made them leave their

house so suddenly that they would pack up?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And how it they get away? Yes, but how are they going to jet anywhere without their vehicles? They didn`t take their cars. Did

somebody pick them up?

And we have other theory on the other side. Authorities holding a news conference right now. We`re trying to figure out what they`re saying in

Alaska about this case. Stay right there.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are working hard to locate them. We don`t have any specific information to show that foul play is the cause of them being





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have no idea what`s going on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On May 27, 37-year-old Brandon Jividen, 22-year-old Rebecca, or Becca, Adams and her two daughters, 5-year-old Michele and 3-

year-old Jaracca Hundley went missing.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where is this family of four? The family vanished exactly two weeks ago. But now there`s new controversy tonight. Cops reportedly

did not move on this case and begin searching until late last week. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just trying to get a full understanding of the people that are missing, and some of their habits and some of their connections

and all those things that might help lead to us locating them. They were reported by the landlord on June 5, which was last Thursday as having not

been around or paid their rent, and that was out of the ordinary.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Selin Darkalstanian, senior producer, the landlord`s phone call wasn`t the first time cops were alerted something was wrong at

this home. A neighbor told us she called cops on May 31, because the family left a storage shed open, which is out of the ordinary.

Did cops make a mistake here? You look at -- look how many -- two weeks have passed since they vanished, and they just started looking a few days

ago, Selin.

DARKALSTANIAN: Jane, another really important thing. We spoke to the neighbor. We`ve been speaking to the neighbor since yesterday, because

we`ve been on the case since yesterday.

The neighbor told us that the diaper bag, the mom`s diaper bag, was left in the car, in the trunk. And her keys and her wallet were left inside the

house. So you know somebody mentioned earlier that a mom doesn`t just leave with two young kids, you know, doesn`t think ahead: What are they

going to eat? What are they going to do? That`s furthermore the case, that it seems like whatever it was, it was pretty sudden. Because they

always locked the storage room. The storage was left unlocked. You know, the diaper bag was left at home. The keys were left at home. So what

happened? Pretty crucial information that the neighbor gave.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And -- and Joe Gomez, the cell phones are turned off. The cell phones are turned off.

J. GOMEZ: The cell phones are turned off. That`s strange in itself. I mean, why would the cell phones be turned off? Unless they didn`t want to

have any form of contact with the outside world or somebody was trying to keep them isolated from the outside world. I mean, if they left so

suddenly, the possibility exists the batteries could have died, as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. That`s what happens to me. When I leave my home with my cell phone, I assume I`m going to be back in time to charge it. If

you leave home without a charger, because you`re racing out the door, your cell phone then dies, and then it says that it`s turned off.

I want to go to the phone lines. Angela, Nevada, what do you have to say? Angela?

CALLER: Well, I think that my -- I think the cops should have -- in the get-go, should have investigated in the first place. Not waited four days.

And I think the boyfriend had something to do with it. I think it was all about drugs.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, he has a DUI, but he doesn`t have any history of drugs, dealing or anything of that nature.

So it is a complete mystery. We`re going to stay on top of it. Hopefully we can talk to the sister in the coming days. And we`ll bring you an

update. Let`s pray that they`re found alive, those beautiful little girls, 3 and 5. My gosh.

Next, a beloved pastor. He was thrown behind bars and accused of murder. Police say he was the aggressor in a deadly brawl outside a bar. But the

pastor says, "Are you kidding me? I`ve been railroaded."

Stay right there.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no punches thrown. The man said, "well, I`m coming to `F` with you."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A hundred percent innocent. He acted in full-on self-defense.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arrested on an outstanding murder warrant --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no punch thrown.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have never had such heartbreak.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the man said "I`m coming to F with you.

ROBERT COX, PASTOR CHARGED WITH MURDER: They attacked and choked me and punched me in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of their leaders went from protecting them against an attacker --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He acted in full-on self defense.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- to being accused of murder.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a widely popular married youth pastor is charged with murder after a bizarre brawl outside a Las Vegas bar. But here`s the

strangest twist. The fight happened a year ago, and the man died six months after the fight. The pastor claims, hey, I was acting in self

defense. Tonight, his church says he`s a hero, not a murderer. So is this pastor as innocent as he claims?

35-year-old California pastor, Robert Cox, was leading a ministry trip with his wife with about 20 interns last summer when his group stopped for a

late-night dinner at a Las Vegas sports bar.

Church members say they were in this parking lot when the man who died, 55 year-old Link Ellingson, suddenly approached, threatened and assaulted

them. The man who towered at 6`8" was allegedly drunk and screaming, quote, "I`m coming to bleep with you, and do you want to bleep with me."

All right. That`s what he supposedly said.

Cops say the pastor initially revealed he punched the victim in the face and then changed his story and said "No, I never hit the other guy." The

pastor insists he only pushed him to the ground to protect his group. The man hit his head on the concrete, fell into a coma and died six months

later. Now the pastor is charged with murder. And he`s shocked -- he says he`s being railroaded.


COX: I`m an honest man so I was blindsided and totally shocked when someone says they`re going to f-ing kill me and then they attack me and

choke me and punch me in the face and then go after my students and give a student a concussion. No, I did not throw a punch.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Straight out to KLUC, Las Vegas radio host Chet Buchanan. Chet -- you`re in Vegas. A lot of people are saying these cops are on a

witch hunt, that this comes like right out of the blue six months after the guy is dead.

CHET BUCHANAN, KLUC LAS VEGAS RADIO (via telephone): This is just so weird. Did he throw a punch? Didn`t he throw a punch? Was the bigger

guy, Ellingson, was he the aggressor? Why did it take them so long to file charges?

Clark County district attorney, Steve Olson, he`s a smart guy, but apparently there was some sort of letter that was sent to the family back

in October, stating the charges wouldn`t be filed. Now there are charges filed. It`s all just a mess.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It really is very odd. The pastor`s church group claims the man who died was belligerent and he was drunk. The group says, as we

have told you, they were leaving the pub. The man confronts them, threatened he`s going to, quote, "bleeping kill them" and then proceeded to

punch five people in the group. Here is a witness.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, girlfriend, you want to f with me -- the man that approached us. And Rob immediately was like "Oh, my gosh, no."

Backed up. "I have kids here. No." And the man said "Well I`m coming to f with you."

He (inaudible) five of us multiple times before Rob could even get his arms around him to push him back. And unfortunately when he was pushing him

back they tripped and fell. It does make sense if you hear the facts, if you hear the truth, why would it even go to court?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we are very delighted to have with us the pastor`s attorney, Frank Copper. Frank -- if I may call you that -- what`s bizarre

about this, is apparently they went -- the Vegas cops went to California and went into his church and handcuffed him like he was some kind of


FRANK COPPER, ATTORNEY FOR PASTOR COX: Absolutely. It was a very ridiculous decision for them to make, since Pastor Rob had been cooperating

with the investigation ever since police first arrived on the scene and thereafter. There was no reason for them to go in and arrest him on a


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you think is going on here? I mean, it doesn`t add up on its face. He is saying, look, the guy was belligerent, he was

drunk, he came after us, he was punching five people. I defended myself. Why do you think cops are doing what they`re doing? Your client is charged

with murder?

COPPER: And that`s really the point. It`s absurd to suggest that Pastor Rob is guilty of murder, premeditated, deliberate murder against this man

that he had never met before? That just doesn`t make any sense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, Joe Gomez, the only thing I can think of, and you`re a reporter, KRLD, you`ve covered a lot of these things. He himself, the

pastor himself, wasn`t hit by this guy. And he felt perhaps that he had a responsibility to protect some of these younger interns. But can you --

you can`t really claim self defense if you aren`t being attacked, right?

J. GOMEZ: Right. I mean, that`s where this gets kind of tricky. If this guy was attacking some of his students, why was he even at a sports bar if

he`s a youth minister with students to begin with? That`s what boggles my mind. But if the guy was attacking his students and he jumped in and hew

got in a fray with this larger man, I don`t know if he can necessarily claim self defense in that case. Also, how can somebody just die of head

trauma if they just fall on the ground without being hit very hard in the face?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian Claypool.

CLAYPOOL: Jane? This pastor can assert self defense if he was --

E. GOMEZ: That`s right.

CLAYPOOL: -- in reasonable fear that the other kids --

E. GOMEZ: Exactly.

CLAYPOOL: -- that were with him were going to be attacked.


CLAYPOOL: And I`ve got to tell you something.

E. GOMEZ: And in Nevada --


CLAYPOOL: -- because they`re under his protective care.

E. GOMEZ: In Nevada --

CLAYPOOL: There`s a specific statute in Nevada --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time. One at a time.

E. GOMEZ: In Nevada, there is no duty to retreat. In Nevada, there is no duty to retreat. Under these circumstances, his attorney is going to have

to successfully prove that this was a justifiable and excusable homicide. And many times the prosecutors don`t have enough evidence, they`ll drop the


CLAYPOOL: Ok. You don`t wait until somebody punches you in the face before you protect yourself.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But hold on a second.

CRENSHAW: Yes, but wait a minute, he could have fell on the ground.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He himself was not punched in the face. So if I`m with a bunch of people --

CLAYPOOL: You don`t have to be punched.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- let`s say I have interns. And I go outside in the street. Let me just ask you. And let`s say I`m in Nevada with my interns

and these are younger kids and I feel protective. And some drunk person comes up and starts -- I have the right to intervene and knock that person

to the ground and then say self defense on my part, even though he didn`t attack me?

CLAYPOOL: Absolutely. If he`s in reasonable fear that he`s going to be harmed or they`re going to be harmed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Dr. Gabe. Dr. Gabe.

CLAYPOOL: This guy fell and tripped because he was drunk.




VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. Let Dr. Gabe speak.

J. GOMEZ: Do we know he was drunk to begin with? No. We don`t know that he was drunk to begin with.


CRENSHAW: Going off the argument -- going off the argument they said he was drunk. If that is the case, this is very biological. Cerebellum is

going to be screwed up. Because you`re drinking the balance is off. You get pushed, bam, blunt head trauma, you hit the ground, you can die.

Nobody has to hit you in the head, doesn`t have to be a fight. He could have just pushed him off because he theoretically was drunk, cerebellum is

off, (inaudible) is off. Inside the hindbrain, the dude is going down. And you know what; I grew up in the church. And I know what it`s like.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to go back to the attorney -- hold on a second, I have to go back to the attorney for the pastor, Frank Copper. Now, the

published reports say that the police report says at first he said he punched the guy, but later he said he only grabbed him by the waist and

knocked him down. His wife says he`s totally innocent. Let`s listen to her and then we`ll hear you.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was cleared, and nothing was wrong. He needs a good morale booster. He`s struggling. There was no punch thrown.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s 100 percent innocent. He acted in full-on self defense.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And here`s a picture of the pastor`s neck. His wife says you can see the choke marks. So here`s what I don`t understand, Frank.

The pastor broke a finger. If he didn`t punch him, how did he break his finger?

COPPER: Well, I`m in a position where I can`t quite comment on the facts, due to the fact you`re not supposed to try a case in the media, but --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, then we`re in trouble. Just a little humor there.

COPPER: I mean the finger easily could have been broken when he fell. And the pastor fell with Mr. Ellingson, the assailant, after the altercation

occurred. So his finger could have been caught in his belt buckle or something like that, which could have caused the injury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about this whole question that Joe Gomez raised? Why is he taking his interns to a bar in Las Vegas, aka, sin city?

COPPER: This was Las Vegas. Just about anywhere you`re going to want to eat is going to serve alcohol. I can certainly say that neither the pastor

nor his wife nor any of the kids that were with him were having any alcohol that day. They were having hamburgers.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why do you think -- do you think cops are trying to make a name for themselves? Are they legally obligated? Because there is a dead

man -- we don`t want to make light of the situation. There is a man who died and maybe he was intoxicated. So what? I`m 19 years sober -- there

are many times I was intoxicated before I got sober. It doesn`t mean I wanted to die.

COPPER: Well, I think that sometimes the cops have an attitude that they`re just going to let the courts sort it out. Here, unfortunately, we

do have a person who died. That is tragic and it`s very unfortunate. But that`s not enough to say there was a murder or that there was ever any

intention to hurt.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But now he`s going to go on trial, right? I mean this guy, who is a pastor in California, has got to stay in Las Vegas and go on

trial in Las Vegas for murder?

COPPER: Well, the next step is a preliminary hearing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we`ll stay on top of it. Thank you, Frank Copper, for giving us some details. And we don`t try cases on this

show. We just discuss them. Let`s let the criminal justice system take its course.

Next: chilling new details about the killer couple who stormed a restaurant and executed two cops who are just sitting there eating some pizza. We`ve

got new clues about what motivated their terrifying rampage and some new video that will scare you and just shake you to the core.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I`ve got five deaths on my shoulders.

I should have called the cops. Two cops who have got families that are dead. My best friend is dead, all because of the fact that he was the one.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Crazy Vid of the Day. Your worst nightmare being stuck inside an out of control elevator. Within seconds of stepping in, the

doors fly open, this man shoots up 30 stories in 15 seconds. The elevator smashes into the roof. This terrified man had head and leg injuries. He`s

going to be ok. But his next elevator trip will undoubtedly be to a lawyer`s office.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just told me to tell the cops that it was a revolution.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say they draped an American Revolution flag and a swastika on the officers` bodies. They then headed across the street

to Wal-Mart.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cops were coming, the cops are coming, everyone get out, get out, get out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got the call that he was the one victim inside of Wal-Mart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These police officers were doing nothing more than having lunch inside a pizzeria. And these two suspects walk in --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had -- I mean a cart full of just ammunition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They believe that law enforcement is the oppressor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She kept saying something about the government, like watching their every move.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight we`re uncovering frightening secrets in the dark, twisted world of the two alleged Las Vegas shooters. Cops say these self-

described revolutionaries slaughtered two police officers and a brave bystander who tried to stop them.

Now new developments giving us insight into the sick minds of Jared and Amanda Miller seen here in Facebook photos as creepy and I mean creepy.

YouTube videos surfaced of Jared dressed up like the Joker. We are learning new information about his criminal history and drug abuse.

Check this out.


JARED MILLER, COP KILLER: I`ll be able to just terrorize the entire nation and possibly the entire globe. There will be a one world order with me at

the head of it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that makes me -- that`s freaky, man. Cops say the couple killed these two brave cops in an ambush while these guys are just

eating lunch. And then they leave behind a swastika and a flag with the words "don`t tread on me" a revolutionary war symbol used by anti-

government extremists.

The shooters continued their rampage at a nearby Wal-Mart where cops say they murdered this man, Joseph Wilcox. Initial reports were that the

woman, Amanda, shot her husband before committing suicide. But now the "Las Vegas Review Journal" reports that police, not the wife, Amanda,

killed Jared. We haven`t been able to independently confirm. But the bottom line is they`re both dead tonight.

Joining me live in an exclusive interview is the male shooter`s former girlfriend, Layla Schurman. And Layla I want to thank you, and I tell you,

I appreciate you speaking out, because I know this has got to be very difficult. But we have to try to understand the minds of these people, so

that we can prevent it from happening again.

You know, the "Sun Times" for example, paints a very disturbing portrait of Jared, somebody who was expressing racist white power views, and walking

around town dressed as the Joker, talking about a new world order and spouting conspiracy theories. When you went out with him, first of all how

long ago was that and what was he like? Was he that freakish person?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hello? Wow. I`ll tell you what -- we`re going to try to get you back. But I want to go to Chet Buchanan -- you`re there in Las

Vegas -- I mean the portrait that is emerging of this guy is really, really, really frightening.

BUCHANAN: Yes, it`s scary. Although the whole -- the Joker and the Joker`s girlfriend saying that they were dressed up like that and walking

around and all that, that could have been just to go to a costume party or whatever. Or we also hear that they were among the many people that dress

up as a character that you would see in the movie, and go down on Fremont Street and charge tourists money to take pictures with them. So that`s not

the part that`s really out of the ordinary, and especially here in Las Vegas.

But the part that is weird --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, you know what this guy was? This guy was a flea market cashier -- so very mundane life. But in his mind, he was very


Now, I want to show you another bizarre YouTube video that this guy, who is now dead, who cops say slaughtered two police officers, has on YouTube.

Check this one out. It`s also scary.


MILLER: I know what it feels like. It`s me and you versus the world. It kind of is. You know, a bunch of zombies out there. A bunch of sheeple

(ph), just ignorantly working to their deaths. Don`t even care where their money goes or anything. I`m so glad you`re not like that, baby. I`m so

glad that I found you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know what, he`s high in that video. I will put my -- bet my house on it. Layla Schurman, you are the ex-girlfriend of

this man, and I appreciate you talking to us. Tell us about his back story. Did he have a drug problem? Did he ever talk to you about drugs?

SCHURMAN: Not -- no. I mean, marijuana would calm him down. But -- no. Nothing other than that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about meth? Did he ever mention to you having done meth?

SCHURMAN: He had mentioned it, but I know that he felt real regret for those days. He knows that it was a bad time for him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it got worse because now he`s at the center of this hideous storm. And the YouTube video posted, he`s clearly stoned on

something. If you could just stand by for a second, we`re going to take a short break. I want to talk to you more about how this guy went into this

downward spiral, because you knew him a while back, and something got worse, clearly.

Stay right there.


MILLER: I have dreams about you. And then I wake up pissed off because I know I`m in jail. But it`s really for the best.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Time for Pet of the Day. Send your pet pics to

Nikki -- oh, don`t be picky Nikki. And Diamond -- You are a diamond in the rough but not rough at all. Look at this gorgeous kitty. And Jake -- oh,

that`s a smile. That`s definitely a smile. Nice to meet you. And speaking of smiles, Oliver, your grin is unbelievably fabulous.



MILLER: We are approaching Indianapolis and we are for the last time going through this awful city. But we`re on our way.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are talking to the former girlfriend of the man who was involved, according to cops, in executing two cops, and then went across

the street to Wal-Mart where another man died who was trying to defend him and the people around him.

Layla Schurman, thank you for having the courage to talk us to about this, exclusively tonight. Your insight into how he became the person he was.

How long ago did you date him? And at the time, was he obsessed with creating a new world order being a freedom fighter? Was he spouting

conspiracy theories and raving with white power antigovernment rhetoric?

SCHURMAN: When him and I dated, it would have been between 2006 and 2007. Back then, yes, he had his views on the government but he had never given

any insight into ever doing something like this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you were shocked that he became this crazy, as it were.

SCHURMAN: Well, I would rather use the word "unhinged". But, yes. I believe that something must have sparked this to make him want to do

something like this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Gabe Crenshaw, as you see these videos. He`s the Joker. He`s got these grandiose theories of new world order and changing

the world -- how would you diagnose this man?

CRENSHAW: You know what -- let me tell you something Jane. Does he have a break with reality, psychotic break? I can go through my whole list of

DSM-IV as a doctor. But let me tell you -- it`s real simple.

Lock his crazy ass up and his girlfriend and everybody likes that. What I`m sick of are these white guys with these white supremacy and anybody

like them. They hate black people, the hate Jews, they hate the government, they hate everybody. Done -- out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they are dead. Jared Miller and Amanda Miller are dead. We have to take a hard look to see what drove them to do what they

did. Nation depends on it.

Nancy`s next.