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ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
Sources: Militant Fighters Seize Top Oil Refinery; ISIS Has Potentially Become More Deadly Than Al Qaeda; The Odds Stacked Against Team USA?; White House Lawyer Subpoenaed on IRS Emails; Pope Francis: Mobsters "Are Not With God"
Aired June 23, 2014 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Next breaking news, Iraq's largest oil refinery now believed to be in the hands of terrorist. We are live in Baghdad tonight.
Plus Congress grills the IRS chief at this hour over thousands of supposedly gone forever e-mails. Did they really just disappear? An "OUTFRONT" investigation.
Real life jaws. One man's story of coming face-to-face with this great white. Not the movie, it's real life. Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening, everyone. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, breaking news, a major victory for terrorist in Iraq. Security forces telling CNN, militant fighters believed to be ISIS have now taken control of Iraq's biggest oil refinery. That is crucial because that refinery would supply the fuel that Iraqi forces need to fight back.
And this comes despite claims from Iraqi government that military forces were using bulldozers to block the terrorists' advances. Now this was the scene as Iraqi forces were providing air support to keep the militants back. The latest power grab follows a move by ISIS to start imposing Sharia law.
An extreme interpretation of Muslim law in the cities and towns now in the hand of terrorist continues to grow. Radical Sunni militant by the thousands capturing at least three more towns in the western desert. They are also in control of critical Iraqi border crossing to Syria and Jordan, sort of creating in the case of Syria, one extensive area of control and in Jordan, of course, threatening the territorial integrity of a country.
This video appears to show a border crossing with Jordan. I want to emphasize appears. We haven't independently confirmed it, deserted, providing ISIS with the direct pipeline for money and weapons. As the situation deteriorates, America's top diplomat travelled to Baghdad to press for a new government. Nic Robertson is OUTFRONT.
JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: This is a critical moment for Iraq's future. NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Secretary of State John Kerry in Baghdad today. While just outside capitol, up to 20,000, ISIS forces are closing in. In the last 48 hours, substantial new gains in the north and west of the country including an Iraqi air base in the key city of Tel Afar.
ISIS now controls at least 70 percent of Anbar Province where U.S. troops waged a deadly battle against insurgents just a few years ago. On the web, ISIS showcasing their games by posting images too graphic to show on TV of bodies believed to be Iraqi soldiers burned in body bags.
Iraq trying to fight back. Targeting ISIS fighters from above. But many in its army are unable and unwilling in some cases to stop the militants. A senior U.S. defense official tells CNN there are problems with morale, leadership, training and equipment. All the more reason for Iraq to begin forming a new government by a July 1st deadline.
KERRY: It will allow Iraqi security forces to confront ISIL more effectively.
ROBERTSON: Kerry who also met with embattled Prime Minister Nuri Al- Maliki also made it clear that a new government is a requirement for American assistance.
KERRY: The support will be intense, sustained and if Iraq's leaders take the necessary steps to bring the country together, it will be effective.
ROBERTSON: Kerry also said U.S. strikes could come at any time.
KERRY: Make no mistake, the president has moved the assets into place.
ROBERTSON: And those assets will include in the coming days, the 300 maximum number military advisors. Now that the United States has agreed with the Iraqi government that they will have -- they will have immunity from prosecution. We understand there are six 12-man teams. Two of those 12-man teams already present will be made up of staff members already at the U.S. Embassy -- Erin.
BURNETT: Nic Robertson, thank you very much. OUTFRONT military analyst, Retired Colonel Peter Mansoor, executive director to General Petraeus during the surge in Iraq and Lt. Colonel Rick Francona. He performed many sensitive operations in the Middle East. Great to have both of you.
Colonel Mansoor, you are on the show last week and at that time, you are adamant the U.S. and you know, I'm quoting you, should stay on the sidelines. You weren't for airstrikes or more boots on the ground. Now you are hearing the ISIS advances. Do you still feel that way?
COL. PETER MANSOOR (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I do. I think putting 300 advisors or so on the ground, the only good that will come of that is it will give us good situational awareness or better situational awareness of the state of the Iraqi Army. And quite frankly, that's information that we need going forward. But politically it won't do a lot. We need is a comprehensive solution to the government in Baghdad.
The secretary of state hopefully is working on that along with the Iraqi elites and once they form a government that has the support of the Iraqi people, then we can think about those stronger military measures that Nic Robertson and Baghdad discussed.
BURNETT: And Colonel Francona, Nic was talking about how we've seen such a takeover in terms of Anbar, Province. That they are sort of bulldozing over towns, and when I was there, I remember it being a deserted empty part of the country. Is it and what does that mean in terms of how significant these gains are?
LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: They are reeling into the towns that the Iraqi government deserted. So the ISIS fighters can roll in there, pretty much seize the territory, declare themselves in charge and move on. That's why you are seeing this lightning move. It looks like they are just rolling across the countryside.
BURNETT: They don't have to fight anybody. Nobody's there.
FRANCONA: Very little resistance. I think it is important to get in there and assess just how good they are. But more importantly, what happened to the Iraqi Army and what situation are they in right now?
BURNETT: Colonel, there is also this issue of Sharia law. ISIS militants are going through cities and they are announcing that they are forming Sharia courts. At their extreme, it is like we saw when we were reporting on this situation in Africa. You can't have smoking music, can't get together, boys and girls have to be separate. Women have to wear a niqab in public, covering their face. A lot of people say, that sounds like something restricting people's freedom. But why should the U.S. actually care to become involved in someone else's problem?
MANSOOR: Well, we probably wouldn't just for the implementation of Sharia law. There is a lot of manifestations. It is respected form of jurisprudence in much of the Islamic world.
BURNETT: Very fair, yes.
MANSOOR: It is the way ISIS fighters implement it, which actually will blow back against them as it did in 2006 and 2007 during the surge when they alienate the Iraqi people who are really not in their nature as extreme as these Jihadis flowing in from the outside. So although this is a measure they are taking now, in the long run, it could work against them as it did back then.
BURNETT: Colonel Francona, one of the things though, is that, I hear Col. Mansoor's point, but at the same time, now for example, they've seized this crucial refinery. They are able to provide gasoline at a much cheaper price than people were getting it just a few days ago. It will provide basic services, which extremist groups have done so successfully, even in places like Egypt. You provide people what they need to live, they'll support you.
FRANCONA: They will support them anyway because there is such animosity toward the Shia. They are looking at some way to get back to Shia and siding with ISIS does that. But I think it is a temporary thing. And the colonel made a very good point. This is a marriage of convenience. They are willing to support them right now.
But just as we saw in 2006, that we had the Anbar awakening, they said, we didn't sign up for this. We don't want the AQI. We don't want the Islamic State of Iraq, which what AQI became. I think we will see maybe yet another reawakening when they achieve their goals.
But right now, they're going to cooperate because it serves their interest. Down the road, I think we are going to see the exact same thing we saw in 2006.
BURNETT: All right, thanks very much to both of you. OUTFRONT next, you know, ISIS itself without the U.S. knowing about it, well, it did. We take a look where the money is coming from.
Plus, Hillary Clinton says she is not one of those people who are truly well off. She earned her money through hard work.
And the pope takes on the mafia.
BURNETT: Following breaking news out of Iraq tonight with the country's largest oil refinery believed to be in the hands of ISIS, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. I want to show you a map. This is number of Iraqi cities that have fallen to the terrorist group. ISIS has been called the world's wealthiest terror group with more resources than even al Qaeda. Michael Holmes has a look into the bank rolling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: ISIS, Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. Experts say they have manpower, a mission, and money. They have been called the wealthiest terrorist group in the world.
GARETH STANSFIELD, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE OF ARAB AND ISLAMIC STUDIES, UNIVERSITY OF EXETER: They could have anything between $1 billion and $2 billion.
HOLMES: While exact numbers are hard to come by, the Sunni militant group amassed a massive bank roll from a wide range of criminal activities like robbery, smuggling, extortion and kidnapping. Levying so-called road taxes on trucks, allowing safe passage through ISIS controlled territory in return for cash.
And making minority Christians pay taxes to avoid crucifixion. According to a report from in the "New York Times." ISIS also cashing in on oil. Takig crude from northern fields in Northern Syria and selling it back to the Syrian government as well as threatening Iraq's largest field.
This adds up to millions of dollars for ISIS every month. Those millions then used to buy arms and pay for propaganda like this high definition highly produced recruitment video. Stansfield credits the success to the leader.
STANSFIELD: He put together a plan, a strategy he is implementing at time when nobody else has one. He is following his plan in Anbar and Syria, and fighting is ongoing. He is capturing territory. He is capturing strategic points.
HOLMES: Making ISIS even more dangerous, Stansfield says the terror group has more resources than al Qaeda.
STANSFIELD: What ISIS have is a very coherent area of operation. They have a strong narrative in those areas they are working. They have clearly defined enemies. They can see them, they have success upon success now as well. And they are working in the heartland of the Middle East and fighting against the Shia on their own turf. These are all things al Qaeda struggled to do. This makes ISIS even more deadly.
HOLMES: And increasing concern to the western world. Michael Holmes, CNN, Atlanta.
BURNETT: All right. Potentially more deadly than Al Qaeda.
OUTFRONT to break down the threat of ISIS is Philip Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst, former deputy director of CIA counterterrorism center. You spent a lot of time dealing with al Qaeda why and al Qaeda funding.
Now, a lot of these numbers from ISIS, it is impossible to confirm, a number gets thrown around, they robbed a bank, they have half a billion dollars. People keep repeating it. Most of that certainly is not exactly true, but how wealthy are they?
PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: I think they have a lot of money, not because they can export it from people. But remember, they are going to start to institute a government. That's taxes when truck going through, they will charge money for that truck.
The interesting question is not how they spend that money for operations, it is whether they spend it on programs to support people. Things like food and medicine so people start to say, ISIS isn't just a terror group that kind of looks better than Nouri al-Maliki, it is a group that is delivering governance. That's the story in the next few months.
BURNETT: And how likely do you think it is that they will do that? I mean, groups have come in, in many Middle Eastern countries, where the governments have been unable to do that, and they've done that. Basic education. Basic services. Basic food. And they get the hearts and minds. MUDD: I think the real story here will not be whether ISIS takes
land. It is whether they make that transmission talk about. There is one group, the most successful terror group on the planet that did it extremely well. That's Lebanese Hezbollah. They owned government on Lebanon. Thirty years ago, there are main life terrors groups. So the question isn't going to be whether they take an oil refinery. It is going to be, are they so harsh in their imposition of Islamic law, are they so willing to spend money on weapons but not food that they lose the support they have today.
BURNETT: And when they do that, though, do you, by definition would they become more tame? Because when you govern, you become less perhaps extremist. You become someone that U.S. says they won't deal with, but they do. Things, like, let's just say, the Taliban.
MUDD: Let me make a prediction about what is going to happen here. As ISIS succeeds, there will be people in the organization who have learned from 30 years of extremist who failed, They fail because they said, if people don't believe us, we will cut off their heads. They learn.
So some will start to say, we better govern properly. We better be careful about Islamic law. I predict there will be harder line factions who say we are ordained by God to govern. So people who don't believe us, we will kill them. And that will lose the movement.
BURNETT: So what about Sharia law? You are not as worried about it. Everyone says, these horrible things and you know, limb for limb. But you don't think that they are actually going to do that?
MUDD: I think -- the problem is not with Sharia law. If you look at polling data across the Middle East, there is a modest amount of polling data over the years. The Koran, the book of Muslims, is a book that prescribes how you live life, not how you go to church on Sundays. It is hard --
BURNETT: Right. Separation of church and state.
MUDD: So there will be a lot of people who say this is perfectly acceptable. The question is going to be how you impose it.
Let me give you a critical example. Who in ISIS sits down and says, here is a good Muslim, here is a bad Muslim. Do they start to say that some villages are bad Muslim because they don't share their views? That is going to cause friction in the villages that they now own.
BURNETT: And just, overall, in terms of governing, it is easier -- it is easy probably to take over land. Sunnis are upset with al-Maliki. They will join you for awhile. But then when you govern, that means one person is more is more power than another. That means you did the responsibility. That transition is historically hasn't been possible to achieve.
MUDD: Look at terror groups over time. We are all worried about taking over territory. Let me flip the coin here. There are disadvantages for ISIS in taking over territory. Because winning it is different than owning it. Look at groups in place like Somalia, Yemen, North Africa. When they move in, they realize that they have a responsibility to people. They can't execute that responsibility.
BURNETT: Right. But as long as they are focused on this and their war there, it is less likely they are attacking the United States.
MUDD: Correct. I know this is going to sounds awful. But the advances they are making actually made New York City, Boston, New York, Chicago more secure. Why is that? Simple explanation. When a terrorist is facing or an insurgent is facing an adversary, they are worried about where the Iraqi army is coming over the hill the next day. They are not worried about what am I going to do about New York City and exploding the car bomb in Times Square. When you have to worry is when the battle lines settle and the terrorists start to say, now maybe, I have bigger fish to fry, and those fish are in New York City.
BURNETT: All right, thank you very much. Good to see you as always.
Still OUTFRONT, the breaking news on the IRS. The chief grilled on Capitol Hill tonight. Live hearing. Thousands of e-mails that supposedly vanished. This just as we are hearing a White House lawyer has been subpoenaed in connection to the scandal as it grows.
And the U.S. soccer team tries to break through to the next round. One of its country's best numbers of crunchers gets all of the elections right. It s going to tell you where to place your bet.
BURNETT: It was close. Team USA seconds away from winning the match against Portugal but they just couldn't hold on. Portugal's last- minute score tied the game, 2-2. Now, a win would have automatically sent the U.S. to the next round. But the tie makes it more interesting.
So what are Team USA odds of winning? Neil Payne is a senior writer at 538. This is a Web site that does statistical analysis, rather brilliantly, calling elections right all the time.
So Neil, good to have you with us. OK, the USA plays Germany Thursday at noon Eastern. Now, a lot of people watching, say, Germany, aren't they pretty good? They are, right? I mean, but if the U.S. wins or ties, they go to knockout round. So they don't actually have to win, they just have to tie. What are the odds they can pull it off?
NEIL PAYNE, SENIOR WRITER, 538: Well, right now our model says there's about 36 percent chance the U.S. either wins or draws. And as you said, they don't actually have to beat Germany, which is good. Because Germany is a really good team and there is only about 15 percent chance that we would beat Germany out right.
BURNETT: OK. So only 15 percent chance to beat out right, OK. So, a tie will do it for the U.S. So, does the U.S. have a chance to get out of this round? I mean, could the U.S. go all the way? A lot of people would be skeptical of that and say, look, America is good at many things. But football as the world calls it is not necessarily one at the top of the list.
PAYNE: Well, they have a really good chance to get out of group stage as they are in right now. About 76 percent chance because they can win, they can draw, and then there are other scenarios which they can lose and still make it in based on the goal differential of Ghana in their game against Portugal. If Portugal wins in a close game then we are guaranteed to be in. So they have a really good chance still of making it in to the next round, the knock-out round.
Once we get there, it is anyone's game but the U.S.'s chances are not quite as good as a team like Brazil or Argentina or even Germany.
BURNETT: Wait, wait, can we get that screen back? Because Neil, what I just saw a 99. That actually was not the number on the screen. The number on the screen was one percent. What I saw that was 99 percent chance of the United States does not win the world cup.
PAYNE: Yes. There's a one percent chance, according to our model, that U.S. wins. But really, that's a lot better than was before the tournament started. If you look at our odds before the tournament started, we had a one in 255 chance of winning. And so, now we have one in 99 chance of winning.
BURNETT: One in 99. All right, well you know, that means if you bet and you're right, you can make a lot more money. I'm just going to find the positive side of it. But in terms of who is going to win, you know, if someone was trying to put a bet on that, what are your odds?
PAYNE: We still say Brazil is the best team. And a lot of that has to do with home field, home pitch, I guess would you call it, advantage. In the world cup, playing your games as home country really seems to matter. And it hopes also that Brazil is still seems to be the best team even though they haven't been as dominant as originally believed going into the tournament.
BURNETT: All right, we will see. Brazil, Argentina, or Germany, I'm trying to decide which one I'll bet on. Maybe, hey look, maybe I will go with the one percent odds, probably not.
All right. Thanks, Neil, appreciate it.
All right. Still OUTFRONT, the head of the IRS, under attack on Capitol Hill right now, this hearing is going on as we speak. We are watching it. And we have an investigation on whether, this is a fact, can thousands of e-mails just go missing or is that a lie? This is the live picture right now, Darrell Issa grilling the chief of the IRS.
And then it is like something out of a movie. Tonight, we will hear from the man who had a face-to-face encounter with this great white shark off the coast of New Jersey this weekend.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BURNETT: Breaking news, a White House lawyer subpoenaed about thousands of missing IRIS e-mails, as that scandal now touching the White House directly. A congressional committee investigating the IRS scandal wants the attorney to appear before a hearing tomorrow. Right now, there's a hearing live as one of several top hearings going on.
This is a live picture, as IRS hearing, as I said, going on. That's Elijah Cummings questioning. Darrell Issa was just questioning a few moments ago. And the star witness, the IRS commissioner.
The issue is thousands of supposedly missing e-mails belonging to Lois Lerner. She's the woman who headed the IRS division that targeted political groups applying for tax-exempt status. She's become now essentially at the center of the whole investigation.
And if those e-mails exist, they could determine whether the order to target the Tea Party or other groups came from inside or outside the agency. That's why these e-mails are so crucial. Republicans say if they are missing, it's proof the agency is lying, because emails can't get missing. Democrats say this is all just a witch hunt.
Athena Jones is on Capitol Hill tonight.
And, Athena, first of all, what's going on inside this hearing?
ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the hearing is just getting under way now. It started a few minutes late because of late voting. But the commissioner, John Koskinen, from the IRS is already under some tough questioning about these e-mails. We're talking about a two-year time period roughly, January 2009 to April 2011. And it's not even clear how many e-mails may have began missing in that period just because they're missing.
We have this letter here from the chairman, Chairman Issa of the House, Government and -- Oversight and Government Reform Committee that you just saw doing some of the questioning. It's 15 questions that he has posed to the IRS commissioner. But these questions have -- many have several parts.
So, it's really -- many, many questions that he's hoping that that IRS commissioner will answer tonight.
Let me play for you just a little bit of an example of some of the tough questioning we heard from Darrell Issa to the commissioner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DARRELL ISSA (R-CA), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: You, Commissioner, are the president's hand-picked man to restore trust and accountability at the IRS. You testified under oath in March that you would produce all of Lois Lerner's e-mails subpoena bid this committee. Before you testified, you took an oath you will take again tonight, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and not but the truth.
Mr. Commissioner, at a minimum, you did not tell the whole truth that you knew on that day. You gave your commitment to produce all e-mails to the committee. You
gave your word, sir, and we are just a little questioning what your word is worth, if in fact you cannot enlighten us about what you know that is germane to our inquiry whether or not it is explicitly asked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: So that's just one example of the kind of fireworks we could see later on tonight. Also, the same hearing, same committee has another hearing on the same matter tomorrow morning. So this is not a subject that's going to go away. And, of course, we are still waiting it hear the white house response to this subpoena from the committee.
They have asked this lawyer, who worked for the IRS and now works at the White House, to testify tomorrow. We'll have to see whether the White House responds and whether they produce her -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Athena, thank you very much.
Darrell Issa testing how many times can he say the word lie without actually saying it.
Tom Foreman is sorting through the fact and fiction for us.
So, Tom, this issue of the e-mails, whether they are gone or not, is it possible?
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Possible? Possible? Yes. Let's look at this.
If you were to crack open your computer and you look at the hard drive, what you find something that looks like this. If you open that up, what you find is this. A stack of shiny spinning disks with arms over here that magnetically write information on them. When people talk about the hard drive, this is what they are talking about.
This is what the IRS says failed inside one of their computers and some in Congress believe that hard drive may have shown that there was an illegal conspiracy against conservative groups and who directed that campaign.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why should anyone believe you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't believe you.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Let's turn back in 2010, IRS officials now admit that's when they were giving special scrutiny to request from the Tea Party and other conservatives for tax-exempt status, which was routinely granted to others. By 2011, conservatives were complaining, especially about Lois Lerner the boss in charge of that division.
Republican congressional investigators suspect she wrote e-mails about the matter but she won't talk and the IRS says her hard drive crashed later that year, taking with it the only copies of an unknown number of messages. And at least a half dozen other computers crashed too.
Possible? Maybe. Say cybersecurity experts like Brian Cunningham.
BRIAN CUNNINGHAM, CYBERSECURITY EXPERT: But it's very hard to believe that there would have been no recoverable data and it would have happened on so many different computers in the same investigation.
FOREMAN: Computers may stop functioning, some data may be lost, but those little electronic messages written on the surface have a stubborn way of hanging on.
CUNNINGHAM: Even drives that have been burn had, soaked in water, damaged, visually beyond all repair, competent engineers can still recover meaningful amounts of data from them.
FOREMAN: Why not reexamine Lerner's drive now? Too late. The IRS says it was destroyed.
What about a back-up file? The IRS had one when all this is happened about it was a tape system that was erased every six months. So, by 2012, the lost e-mails were gone, even though it took until this year to tell Congress, spurring even more suspicion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Lois Lerner preemptively crash her hard drive?
KOSKINEN: All of the evidence is to the contrary.
FOREMAN: Now, to be fair, the IRS has produced 750,000 pages of documents in this case and have been able to recover 24,000 of these e-mails from Lois Lerner who is no now retired by accessing e-mail of other people. But that has done precious little to quiet the accusations. Politically motivated or otherwise that IRS is hiding something and blaming it on a bug in their computers -- Erin.
BURNETT: Thank you very much, Tom.
And joining me now, Sunny Hostin, Margaret Hoover and John Avlon.
All right. John, here's the thing. On this show, we sent a cell phone in a pressurized container to what would be the bottom of the Indian Ocean. In case it was on MH370, and every text came off it. They said, in 300 years, we can still get every text off of it.
So, do you buy these emails were gone?
JOHN AVLON, THE DAILY BEAST: It doesn't look real good. I mean, here's what I don't -- Dems shouldn't be in denial about this. I mean, this takes to high heaven. Nobody loves the IRS from the beginning.
And when people say, oops, you know, hard drive is gone, it's the tech equivalent of the dog ate my homework.
So, there's a hard road to climb. And I think a lot of Dems, frankly, are in denial about how serious this scandal can get. The problem is that whenever Darrell Issa does something, it doesn't look like the pursuit truth. It looks like partisan hackery and grandstanding.
BURNETT: It galvanizes.
AVLON: Exactly right. And so, therefore, the whole pursuit of truth aspect, where we should be, gets lost in the wind.
BURNETT: All right. I have to -- there is something else I have to talk about that happened because this caught my attention, and it was about Hillary Clinton, right? Did you guys see this "Guardian" interview that was in Britain's "Guardian". They asked Clinton about her wealth, which is extremely large, and whether it would be a problem with income equality becomes an issue, because, yes, she is running as Democrat but she's wealthy.
OK. So, here's what she said. She said, "They don't see me as part of the problem," she protest, writes the paper, "because we pay ordinary income tax, unlike a lot of people who are truly well-off. Not to name names and we've done it through dent of hard work." She says, letting another burst of laughter, sorry, "If past form is any guide, she must be finding my question painful."
OK. Sunny, unlike people who are really well-off. Bill Clinton has earned an estimated $100 million since he left office. There are a lot of oligarchs and Barry Diller, and people like that put that to shame.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And there are other people that are, I think her words, truly wealthy, that only pay capital gains taxes, right, and sort of hide their money in offshore accounts. I think that's what she was referring to. Certainly, it was inartful, no question about it.
But I'm so shocked at Hillary Clinton, because we know that she stepped in this before. Right? She sort of mentioned that they were dirt poor when they left the White House. So, she scraped off her shoe this time and sort of got out of it. And now, it's still wreaking.
And I'm very surprised she hasn't sort of fixed the message, because the message is, you've got to be relatable. You have to -- people have to like you and also think that you can relate to their problems. At this point, I'm thinking, I can't relate it a hundred million dollar problem.
BURNETT: Especially because, Margaret, she is referencing, you get a lower rate still if it's investment income. She's acting as if most of that money isn't an investment, it's getting a lower rate, because you know what? It is.
MARGARET HOOVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: And we also have to mention, Bloomberg just had a report about a month ago about how -- because they had this $100 million wealth in an estate, they actually have practiced some tax loopholes that are available only to the top 1 percent of Americans. As much as I would like to go after her on taxes, I would really like
to go after her on something because you can be wealthy and govern all Americans.
BURNETT: And be relatable.
HOOVER: But this shouldn't be a hit against you. Just because income inequality is going to be an issue, a policy issue in this campaign, doesn't mean you can't talk about income inequality. And, by the way, it doesn't mean you are in a more nuances way.
Look, Republicans -- Mitt Romney would have been wise to talk about social mobility, because maybe the problem here is not just this frozen -- the problem if you have a frozen strata of social classes. If you're on the bottom and you can't get to the top, that is a problem with the American dream. It's not so much that you have a super rich, it's if that super rich is unattainable to everyone, then have you a problem.
HOSTIN: I mean, I think it's very inside baseball. People aren't going to listen to that. They will just think -- what? You got a hundred million dollars? And you don't think that's wealthy? I think she just alienates people.
HOOVER: No wonder about it, and you have to -- this can be a more nuanced issue. We can have a smart policy conversation --
BURNETT: This is turned from us versus them, John.
ALVON: The really well off.
I don't know if that is at the height of her political problems in that particular sentence, but you're right. You know, look, I think, interestingly, one of the things she tried to do was address a mortgage point. We earned this on our own, right? This wasn't inherited wealth.
BURNETT: Dent of hard work.
AVLON: Right, dent to hard work. Whatever dent means.
But that was an important. The larger point here, though, is we should be having a conversation about tax simplification, about the loop holes available to the super rich. The creative 14 percent effective tax rate. You really want to play triangulate, want to play political judo?
HOSTIN: The everyday American doesn't understand that.
AVLON: Let's not talk down to the everyday American. But I think the larger issue here is the unforgivable sin of politics is hypocrisy and when the Clintons say, do as I say, don't do as I do, when they say, I'm part of the middle class, oh, my billionaire friends think we are poor, that's a problem with the bubble you live in.
BURNETT: There's also factually untrue in here. I mean, this whole issue, and I know she's joking about, but we pay ordinary income tax unlike a lot of people who are truly well-off. She is on the earnings in that year, but everything else they've invested, which is the vast majority of their wealth, it's no an ordinary income tax rates.
HOSTIN: That's true. And I think though, what we have to realize is -- you know, I'm not a politician, I'm not a political pundit, I'm just a lawyer. I don't understand -- I don't understand a lot of this nuanced argument. I liken myself to the average middle class person who grew up like I did. Poor, who sort of picked herself up by the boot straps, went to law school, became a lawyer.
She alienated me with that statement. Even though I'm a Hillary fan. And so, I think her message, again, is really a problem, especially to African-Americans, I think especially to Latinos.
BURNETT: She might be running against another person who seems to have that kind of awe shucks thing down a little bit better. That person being Joe Biden, who coincidentally this morning said this --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Don't hold it against me that I don't own a single stock or bond. Don't hold it that I have no savings account. But I got a great pension and I got a good salary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: His wife, they put in his wife's name, I guess.
HOSTIN: But he made my point, right? He's relating to those people.
HOOVER: 2016, early on --
BURNETT: He's running?
HOOVER: You think? I mean, look, they are friends but all is fair in love and war. This is a soft line for 2016.
AVLON: That's also just classic Joe Biden talking to working families conference, reminding folk that he has always been the least wealthy senator. That's been part of his charm. That's been part of his problem historically. He is kind of an awe shucks guy, who's always just tried to reach a little bit beyond his means, took the train. That's part of who he is. But the contrast is clear.
HOSTIN: I'm that girl. And I liked it.
BURNETT: Did he mention he is from Scranton?
AVLON: Yes, sometimes they lead their piece (ph) from Scranton, sometimes.
BURNETT: Oh, gosh. All right. Thanks to all of you.
And still to come, the pope takes on the mafia and the mob responds, tonight.
Plus, real life "Jaws" up the coast of New Jersey, the man who came face-to-face with this 16-foot great white, is OUTFRONT tonight.
BURNETT: A real life "Jaws" off the coast of New Jersey. A great white shark about 16 feet long came inches away from a group of fishermen this weekend and it was captured on video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is coming back, coming straight up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he is. Right towards you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He could come up. Look out. Get back. Get back. You guys are nuts. He is going to take our chum bag. He is going to take our chum bag.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could be -- holy -- he ripped our chum bag right off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Now, the great white then swam around the boat for 20 minutes.
OUTFRONT tonight, the owner of the boat came face to face with the great white, his name is Steve Clark.
Steve, so, I mean, I don't know. For a moment that great white seemed sort of peaceful. Then, all of a sudden, its jaws opened. It went after the bait bag.
What was your reaction when you saw that great white?
STEVE CLARK, BOAT OWNER: It was just awesome. Really cool to see and experience.
BURNETT: I mean, in the video, I hear people on the boat been like, "What are you doing, what are you doing? Stay back." You were there without fear. What made you just not be worried about it? I mean, you know, had
that shark decided, it's not very far from the teeth to you.
CLARK: I think everyone was taking but more because they were excited than really afraid of it.
BURNETT: I mean, 16-foot shark, open mouth, triangular teeth, each of which are at least two inches big, reminding our newsroom and I think a lot of viewers when they saw this scene, of another scene from, of course, "Jaws." Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I could go slower, come on down and chum some of this (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are going to need a bigger boat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Just sort of playing this exactly like the shark that came out of the water to you.
I know you worked with National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association. It's not like you haven't seen sharks before, Steve. But has a great white gotten that close before?
CLARK: They haven't gotten that close. Usually don't stick around the boat that long. So, that was pretty exciting. There was definitely a little bit of irritation, not so much fear at the end when it did start to maul at the motors. But, it didn't hurt the boat at all. We were fine. We made it home fine.
BURNETT: Wow, it's mauling at the motors.
All right. There is actually, speaking of NOAA, they did a recent study that shows, you know, conservation efforts with sharks, great whites in particular, have worked. There are more of them that they're used to be.
Do you think this could happen again? You were off the coast of New Jersey, which was one of the most visited beaches in the country at this time of year.
CLARK: I don't know they were ever as rare as people make them out to be. I think they have a long reproductive cycle. A good thing they're protected but I really don't think at least in the last ten years, from when we fish a lot, they're not uncommon to run into. I just think they're mainly migrating by. I don't think they hang out around New Jersey for too long.
BURNETT: Now, Steve, you know, it is interesting when you describe this the a lot of people are watching thinking of fear. You obviously describe it as something that was sort of amazing, that you experience with excitement.
CLARK: It was cool. I mean, it was definitely checking us out as much as we were watching it.
BURNETT: That's interesting. Steve, thank you so much.
CLARK: Thank you.
BURNETT: Checked out by a shark.
All right, the mafia have been slammed by the pope. So, Pope Francis went after mafia members. And here's what he said. Those who in their life have gone the evil ways as in the case of the mafia, they are not with God, they are excommunicated."
Vatican correspondent Delia Gallagher is OUTFRONT from Rome with the mafia's response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Erin, the pope putting the squeeze on the mafia. Excommunication is the strongest penalty that the Catholic Church issues. Francis is the first pope to do it against the mafia. And he did it at the heart of mafia land in Calabria.
In an open air mass on Saturday, 200,000 people in attendance, all eyes and ears on him. And the pope said, "Members of the mafia you are excommunicated".
A huge embarrassment for the mafia, because these are men who like to portray themselves as religious, upstanding members of their community, going to mass, participating in religious processions. The pope says today forward that is over. It is a message to the mafia. It is a message to anybody collaborating with the mafia and mostly a message of support to those people on the ground living daily with mafia intimidation -- Erin.
BURNETT: Delia, thank you very much.
Incredible. He came out so directly on that. There is no issue the pope will not touch.
Still to come, Jeanne Moos with the good, the bad and the very, very silly as only Jeanne can tell is from this year's World Cup kind of like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Goal! Goal! Goal!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Huge numbers for ESPN during the World Cup, 18.92 million people watched the U.S. take on Portugal. It was the most watched soccer match as they call it in this country ever on American television.
For more on money and power of the World Cup, here is Jeanne Moos.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Oh, fickle fans. One minute, they were chanting patriotically.
MOOS: The next, they were taking their frustration out on the flag.
There was joy on a flight from L.A. to New York.
MOOS: On the ground, euphoria crashed as Portugal scored.
MOOS: U.S. fans ended up holding their heads, hands over their mouths, hiding their eyes.
(on camera): From the thrill of victory to the agony of -- a tie?
(voice-over): Olympian Lolo Jones posted her reaction on Instagram, saying in 30 seconds she went from this to this. American troops watching the World Cup in Afghanistan --
MOOS: Let out a collective groan.
MOOS: But at least if you bury your head in the hand, you won't have to see Ronaldo assisting the goal. The Portuguese star played with a zigzag shaved into the side of his head.
Rumors flew. Did Ronaldo really cut his hair for a kid with a brain tumor?
A source close to the star confirms he shaved his head in solidarity with a boy whose surgery Ronaldo paid for to the tune of $83,000.
(on camera): Ronaldo was mocked was his zigzag inspired by Zorro. U.S. fans let him have it for helping to tie the match.
CROWD: Ronaldo sucks, he really, really sucks
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a very, very attractive man.
MOOS (voice-over): Maybe not as sexy, but still a star among U.S. fans, is the guy who dresses up as America's 26th president, Teddy Roosevelt.
Mike D'Amico told Yahoo! Sports.
MIKE D'AMIKO: I do it because it gets people fired up.
MOOS: At least he doesn't have bugs on him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their final like this.
MOOS: Like this ESPN reporter, who later tweeted out. Hate to disappoint everyone. We put the bugs on my shoulder and microphone. The wildlife at the World Cup is pretty wild, even FIFA's mascot, the armadillo got frisky with some Brazilian dancers. And who taught this Labrador to take sides in soccer, celebrating Portugal's tying goal.
Hey, the lab is even cuter than Ronaldo, but maybe not quite as well groomed.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
BURNETT: Look at that dog's tail. I am surprised it couldn't even stay upright it was moving so fast.
All right, thanks so much as always for watching. We'll see you back here tomorrow night.
"ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now.