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Did Toddler Die in Hot Car, As Dad Says?; 26-Year-Old Mother Accused of Murdering Son; Hope Solo Pleads Not Guilty to Assault

Aired June 23, 2014 - 19:00   ET


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The implications of our technique was for $131 and not a lot of brain cells we can retrieve that data. Anybody can do this. And

now everybody has to change their protocol on how to safeguard classified information.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight was a toddler`s horrific -- and I mean horrific -- death a tragic accident or did his own dad murder the little

boy? That question sparking national uproar, with many defending the dad while cops seem to be raising a lot of suspicions tonight.

Now, at first, police said little Cooper Harris died inside his dad`s blazing hot SUV while the father was inside at work. But now cops say they

cannot confirm dad`s version of events. The young father now facing felony murder. Do investigators have evidence that he intentionally killed his

nearly 2-year-old son?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live. Thanks so much for joining me.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fully aware of what he`s charged with. He`ll be entering a plea of "not guilty" at this time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Left him in the back of his SUV while he went to work.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His 22-month-old son was dead, probably long before he tried to resuscitate him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hopped out of the driver`s seat, opened the back door, pulled his child out, laid him on the concrete, tried to resuscitate him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leaving him inside the hot SUV for seven long hours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What other evidence is there that would cause Cobb County to charge him with felony murder?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had been in the automobile -- the father`s automobile since about 9 a.m. this morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Claims he simply forgot to drop Cooper off.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Seems like it`s a rush to judgment.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thirty-three-year-old Justin Harris initially told cops he accidentally left his 22-month-old son strapped into a car seat inside his

broiling hot SUV for about seven hours Wednesday as the car sat in the parking lot of his Atlanta area office. Dad says he simply forgot to drop

the toddler off at day care before going to work at a Home Depot satellite center where he`s a web developer.

Harris says he first realized Cooper was still strapped into his car seat on the drive home that evening. Witnesses say the dad suddenly sped into a

shopping center parking lot, got Cooper out of the car seat, laid him on the pavement, tried to resuscitate him and screamed, "What have I done?"


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Medical personnel arrived on the scene and determined that the child apparently had been in the automobile -- the father`s

automobile since about 9 a.m. this morning.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the very next day, that very same officer said, quote, "I cannot confirm that the child, as originally reported, was in the car

seat at 9 a.m.," end quote. Adding, quote, "I`ve been in law enforcement 34 years. What I know about this case shocked my conscience as a police

officer, a father and a grandfather."

Shocked his conscience? Does that sound like investigators are not buying this dad`s story anymore?

What do you think? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. Our Lion`s Den panel is ready to debate it.

But first out to Veronica Waters, reporter, WSB Radio in Atlanta.

Veronica, this is a fast-shifting story. What do you know tonight?

VERONICA WATERS, REPORTER, WSB RADIO: I`ll tell you what we don`t know tonight, Jane: what the results were of the search that Cobb County Police

did at Ross Harris`s office in Cobb County, at his Home Depot job. We know, of course, that they have conducted the search. But they`re being

very tight-lipped about what that search actually found, whether or not they found anything on his computer that might have raised suspicions. I`m

sure that they looked at his entrances and exits to look for any clues as to what was happening that day.

We also know that the autopsy has been completed by the Cobb County medical examiner. But the medical examiner`s office told me today that they are

not releasing the information that was in that without the say-so of police.

Police for their part are saying, "Look, this investigation is very active. It`s very much ongoing. And we`re not releasing any details just yet."

We also know that this is a case that has gotten people excited on every end. There are some people who say the prosecutors are overreaching with

this murder charge. There are some people who are saying, "How could you possibly forget that your kid was in the back of an SUV?"

And people have reached out and given prayers online, and they`re donating some $20,000 to date, Jane. Just before I got on, I looked online. Almost

$20,000 raised for the Harris family.

A lot of questions here. A big whopping question: what is it that police know that they`re not telling us that leads them to stick by this felony

murder charge?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Lisa Bloom, legal analyst for, author of "Suspicion Nation," talk about suspicion. This father is being held on no

bond for about 25 more days until his bond hearing. Now if cops really thought he was a grieving father who made a horrible mistake and had

already paid the worst price imaginable, the loss of his son, would they really keep him behind bars without bond?

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVVO.COM: I don`t like the police making the statement, Jane, smearing this man`s good name without giving any facts or

evidence. Maybe they do have something. If so, what is it? I don`t like them publicly coming out and saying, essentially, "We know something bad

about this man. We`re not going to tell you what it is, but everybody should dislike him." I just don`t like it. It doesn`t make me


VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, Facebook, Angela is saying, "No accident, no excuses. I had three little ones close together. Not once did I forget

any of them."

So you`re right: People are saying, "Hey, if the cops with behaving this way, holding him without bond, saying what he did shocks the conscience,

they`re essentially saying, no accident, no excuses." Is that fair or not?

Well, before you decide that, let`s give you some more information, because it`s coming in by the minute. Police originally thought this little boy,

this precious, adorable boy, Cooper, spent seven hours trapped inside his dad`s SUV outside the Home Depot corporate office. Temperatures reached 88

degrees that afternoon. That`s 88 outside the car. OK. But obviously, a hell of a lot hotter inside.

The American Veterinarian Association calculates car temperatures to warn people against leaving their pet in a car. They estimate a vehicle left

for more than one hour in 88-degree weather could reach 130 degrees inside.

Now here`s a witness who saw dad drive into that shopping center parking lot, pull over and yank his son -- his lifeless son out of the car seat.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hopped out of the driver`s seat, opened the back door, pulled his child out, laid him on the concrete. Tried to resuscitate him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Witnesses say the dad screamed over and over again, "What have I done? What have I done?" And then, kind of answering his own

question, screamed, "I`ve killed our child."

Selin Darkalstanian, you are a senior producer. You have been digging all day into the background of this dad. Some people are wondering, could that

scream "What have I done?" been an acting job? What have you learned about this father?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, SENIOR PRODUCER: Jane, this father does not have a criminal history. We ran a background check on him. We checked. They`re

originally from the state of Alabama. He has no history of any criminal activity.

I`ve been reaching out to all the friends that are, you know, speaking out in defense of the family online on the online petitions. I even reached

out to Dale, the gentleman you just heard, who was one of the witnesses on the scene as they were pulling the child out. And their attorneys have

advised everybody involved who knew this guy, who knew the family, not to speak to the media.

The one person we did get in touch with was the landlord of this family. And the landlord says they were a great family, perfect tenants. They

moved from Alabama to Georgia about -- almost two years ago. You know, they were a young couple. They had one son, and the mom stayed home for

the first year. She took care of the kid. The dad worked at Home Depot, always paid their rent on time, even paid the rent ahead of time.

And the mom just started working part-time last year. And everyone who knew them, all the neighbors, everybody who was around this family had

nothing but great things to say about them: quiet, nice, friendly. The landlord was shocked. He says he would never guess, you know, they would

have any sort of a criminal activity or criminal background, and we don`t know, you know, if the cops have something on them. But we have not been

able to find anything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, you are famous for analyzing autopsies. What I find very significant here is that cops

say the autopsy report is not ready to be released. They won`t say when it will be available, and reports say that the medical examiner asked cops,

specifically the investigators, for more information. What does that tell you?

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST (via phone): Well, it kind of surprises me. This is a diagnosis which they will have to make by ruling

out other problems, other signs of trauma.

You know, when you`re trapped in a car like this, the heat builds up, and there`s dehydration. And the child succumbs to shock and eventually coma

and brain damage, kidney failure and death. And so the signs that you see in an autopsy are not dramatic.

And so there may be other trauma to the child that the medical examiner has seen. And maybe that`s why they`re waiting for additional information.

Or they just, as Lisa pointed out, they just may not be -- it may not be called for that the police made that remark. But this is a diagnosis that

has to be made by eliminating all other possibilities.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Lisa Lockwood, investigator, author of "Undercover Angel," one of the top investigators in the United States, first they just

sort of reflexively said, this was an accident.

Then they decide to obtain search warrants for the father`s workplace, which is a Home Depot satellite office, reportedly, where he was a web

designer. What could they find in that workplace that would give them an indication, hypothetically -- hypothetically -- that the story is different

from what they were told?

LISA LOCKWOOD, INVESTIGATOR: Well, this is a shock to the public and also a shock to the police department. When that police officer made that

assertion of this being unconscionable, that it just -- it really affected him largely, this means that they have more evidence.

The evidence that they possibly found was maybe some research. Maybe he looked online for possibilities of a cover-up story, finding out, is it

going to be difficult in an autopsy to determine the time of death if the child was in the car for seven hours, et cetera. So I think with that

information, they`re going to try and ascertain was that child actually in that vehicle for that amount of time? And that`s what I think forensics is

going to be looking for.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, sure. And they might have surveillance video in a workplace parking lot. There could be surveillance video. Was that car

there the entire seven hours? What does his cell phone say? What does his computer say?

We`re just getting started. Phone lines lighting up. We`ve got a lot of Facebook comments. Don`t forget to check out our Facebook page and do me a

favor, will you? It would be so great if you could like it while you`re there. It`s so easy. Just click "like" right there. Go to my Jane Velez-

Mitchell Facebook. We`ll have a whole bunch of behind-the-scenes photos, exclusive content. Stuff that you don`t see anywhere else.

And of course, don`t miss our pet selfies on Facebook. We`ve got a challenge. You can submit your pet selfie and see yourself live on the


But also, we`re going to talk about new clues emerging in the case of the so-called salt mom, the young mother accused of murdering her son by giving

him too much salt. Stay right there. More on this car situation, as well.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did not know how to be a mother. I thought that maybe I could, you know, help her care for her child.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have found out since, everything she told me, just about everything sew she told me has been a lie.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Medical personnel arrived on the scene and determined that the child apparently had been in the automobile -- the father`s

automobile since about 9 a.m. this morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t until the father was driving home from work, shortly after 4 p.m., that he noticed his son in the car seat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You ever had to witness something like that before in your life?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the first and hopefully the last.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thirty-three-year-old Justin Ross Harris says, "Oh, I forgot to drop off my precious son at day care. Went to work and left this

boy in my car for seven hours, strapped into a car seat while temperatures hit what are estimated to be 130 degrees." The boy is dead tonight, and

the dad is charged with felony murder.

The big question: was it a terrible accident or might it have been something else, something perhaps intentional?

Want to go back out to Veronica Waters, reporter, WSB, all over this. You`ve got new information. What do you know?

WATERS: Well, today, Jane, we got a list of the eyewitnesses whose names police got on the scene at that Akers Square shopping center. And my

colleague, Pete Combs, started calling around trying to get somebody on the phone to talk about what exactly they saw that day.

And in the words of a 25-year-old eyewitness, she thought that he was sort of play-acting on the scene. Now those are very strong allegations, of

course. And everybody`s a Monday morning quarterback sometimes in a situation like this.

But this woman thought that Harris seemed a little detached from what was going on. Said that he had actually turned his back to what first

responders were doing as they tried to resuscitate little Cooper. She said that he would sort of look over, that he would weep a little bit, and that

his face looked more worried than as the distraught dad that many of us were thinking that he was when he climbed out of that SUV and the other

eyewitness said, he was saying, "What have I done? What have I done?"

So she really said she thought that there was a little play acting going on. Could there be something there? We just have yet to know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. And by the way, we attempted to reach this father`s attorney. He is invited on, this attorney, he or she, anytime. We want to

get both sides of the story.

But I want to go to Dr. Gabe Crenshaw, psychologist. What do you make of what you just heard?

DR. GABE CRENSHAW, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know what? Jane, I hope that`s not really true.

Actually, my mind is going to, you know, fatal distraction syndrome, Swiss cheese model syndrome. And this can happen to any parent. And the basic

reason is that we`re very busy.

What it suggests is a fatal distraction. We literally are so distracted by everything that`s going on -- we`ve got work; we`ve got day care; we`ve got

what is our wife doing; we`ve got lunch; we`ve got all these things happening. I know it`s a weak excuse. But psychologically, it holds up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, I have forgotten my coffee cup on the top of my car and driven off, and it spilled everywhere. But that`s far different

than leaving a 22-month-old toddler in a car seat strapped in hot weather...


BLOOM: Jane, come on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, don`t say come on. It`s different. Go ahead.

BLOOM: First of all -- first of all, there`s dozens of cases like this every year where people leave their babies in cars. It is horrendous. I

feel sorry for that poor child who suffered horribly.

But we have to have room in our hearts for people who are different from us, who make mistakes maybe we would not make. I`m tired of everybody

piling on this guy and similar parents who suffer the worst possible tragedy that you can suffer in life, a child dying because of your own

neglect. Unless there`s some hard evidence that he intended this, let`s have a little compassion for this man.

CRENSHAW: I agree.



GREENBERG: You know what? Lisa makes sense because they`re picking on the poor guy.

First of all, nobody kills a child by frying him in a car. It`s just an accident. Probably focused on work.

And then you`ve got people on the scene who are saying, he was worried but not distraught; well, he was distraught but not worried. Well, what`s the

big difference? He obviously screwed up.

You know, if you`re going to do harm to a kid, unless the police have some evidence that the child was poisoned or beaten or there was some sort of

abuse going on, it`s clearly an accident. Felony murder...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You can`t say it`s clearly an accident! That`s premature. He is charged with felony murder. I`m not saying -- I`m not saying it`s

not an accident. You can`t say definitively at this point. Something, something seemed to have changed. Initially -- initially cops...


CRENSHAW: Jane, with all due respect -- with all due respect...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He was given the benefit of the doubt initially.

CRENSHAW: With all due respect, in 2010, a police officer, a social worker, a clergyman, a protestant clergyman, all of these people left their

kids in the car fatally. It happens across the board. Across NCS, across educational boundaries. It`s a fatal distraction syndrome. Is it

horrific? Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on one second. Hold on one second. OK, Lisa Lockwood, accidents do happen. We`re going to give you some stats in just

a second.

But Lisa Lockwood, it seems that police are signaling that they may have suspicions of something else. The idea that they`ve kept him there without

bond. The idea that they announced a quote that they cannot confirm his story that the child was there from 9 a.m. on. The fact that one sergeant

who is handling the case said that "This shocks my conscience." Now, I believe...

GREENBERG: It shocks my conscience.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: If it is an accident, they need to come out and say, "You know what? We don`t need to prove intent to prove felony murder. We`re

charging him with murder, but we don`t think he intended it." They do need to clear his name, Lisa. Otherwise people are going to talk, and they`re

talking right now on Facebook.

LOCKWOOD: And that`s exactly what they`re going to do. The district attorney would not have approved these charges if that was not the case.

There was enough probable cause. And the police officer did leak that to the public.

So everybody`s just going to need to wait and see what`s going to come up with this, because that was a risky move that police officer made when he

said that. It shakes his conscience.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Melissa, South Carolina, what do you have to say? Melissa, South Carolina?

CALLER: Yes, ma`am, Jane. How are you doing this evening?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fine, thank you.

CALLER: Ms. Jane, I work with toddlers. I`ve been a 2-year-old teacher for almost four years now. There`s no way in the world that that father

forgot his child in that car. I`m speaking from experience...


CALLER: Just as well as you forget your cell phone in the car, money in the car, there is no way in the world that he forgot that child was in that

car. Something is not right, and something does not smell right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? It`s split on Facebook. OK. One, David on Facebook says, "Let the dad mourn the loss of his son. He should be let

out on bond."

Julie says, "I`m wondering if that child was killed before he was placed in the car."

Join our conversation. Go to my Jane Velez-Mitchell Facebook page and let me know what you think.

And we`ve got more information, more clues on the other side. Stay right there.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His answers and his responses when it first happened weren`t consistent. They didn`t make sense. They didn`t add up. So they

think there`s more to this. They`re looking at that child for any injuries that may have occurred prior to this death.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He told investigators that he`d forgotten that he forgot, that he left the child in the car when he went to work and that he

only found him seven hours later on the way home from work.

But we`re learning from an officer with the Cobb County Police Department near Atlanta that a lot of the details have changed since that tragedy on



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is the death of that beautiful, beautiful child just a horrible accident and deadly forgetfulness? Or could the father have

intended to kill his son by leaving him for seven hours in a hot car?

There is a national debate tonight, a flood of sympathy and support. A petition urges the D.A. to drop the murder charges against Justin Harris.

But on another site, you`ve got the money issue. More than $20,000 has been donated to help pay for Harris` defense.

And supporters are saying essentially he`s overcharged, that this was an accident, that the father didn`t mean to do this.

But I want to go to Lawrence Kobilinsky, a famed forensic scientist. We don`t know the autopsy results yet. Can you tell the difference between an

intentional death and an accidental death, vis-a-vis this autopsy or whether he might have died -- the child might have died from something else


KOBILINSKY: Absolutely, Jane. The autopsy is the missing piece here to the puzzle. The medical examiner is like a medical detective. There are

things that have to be ruled out. For example, poisoning. Toxicology has to be done.

There could possibly be physical trauma to the body or asphyxiation. These are the kinds of things that have to be ruled out. And only then will the

medical examiner look at all the facts that the baby was in the car for an extended period of time. There should be dehydration, brain damage.

In other words, it`s just got to fit together. It is a puzzle. We don`t have all the pieces. We`re speculating about the cause of death. Until we

get that autopsy, we really don`t know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Imagine that poor little boy strapped to a car seat helpless as he`s tortured, essentially, to death. And guess what? Where

the dad works and the day care, just two miles apart.

This is such a gut-wrenching case. Psychologist Gabe Crenshaw, what I find fascinating, and it`s totally understandable, but the mother has not said a

word. The mother of the child, the wife of this man.

CRENSHAW: Yes. I think it`s -- I mean, I`d want everyone -- I`m on the side of, you know, let`s keep the family together and, you know what? It`s

just a tragic accident. But there are some things that are red flags here.

Like you say, you know, the mother could be so distraught she hasn`t said anything. What the police has offered, as well. I mean, as a

psychologist, I want to believe the best in everybody. But the fact of the matter, you know, there could be some sort of subliminal and conscious

motivation. Maybe the child was an inconvenience. Maybe we`ll discover that they had some financial problems. It could be any number of things,

maybe a relationship issue...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We went through their accurate (ph), and it doesn`t appear that they have any financial problems. But let me say this very quickly.

Steve Greenberg, actually let`s show that map again. It turns out it`s two miles between where the dad works and where he pulled the boy from the SUV.

Does that strike you as odd that he goes for two miles -- he gets in his car, doesn`t notice the child is there and drives for two miles and then

suddenly -- at that moment, ta da, oh, my gosh?

GREENBERG: Well, and at that point, the child was already deceased. So you`re not going to hear the child.

The whole story strikes me as odd. It`s just not -- if he was going to harm the child, it`s not the way that someone would do it. It just doesn`t

smack of any kind of intentional thought process that someone would have. Is it unbelievably stupid? Yes. But criminal? I`m just not seeing the


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ve got so much more. Top of the hour, Nancy Grace dives into this story. That`s in a couple of minutes, 8 p.m.

Eastern right here on HLN.

And on the other side, this woman`s accused of killing her young son by giving him too much salt. You will not believe what we`re learning about

her toxic past.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The young mom would tell people Garnett required a feeding tube because of a chronic G.I. condition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s alleged Lacey may have placed salt into his tube in order to sicken her son and gain sympathy for herself.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here inside the fellowship community in Chestnut Ridge, police say is where police say his own mother killed him, poisoning

him with an ingredient found in every kitchen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears that it was common table salt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The young mom would tell people Garnett required a feeding tube because of a chronic GI condition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was an incident where she kind of lost control with Garnett.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unimaginable that this happened here. Unimaginable.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, toxic dark secrets now pouring out about a mother accused of poisoning her precious son to death with salt. Lacey Spears

charged with second-degree murder in the death of her 5-year-old son, Garnett, who died back in January with toxic levels of sodium in his system

that you can`t produce in your own.

Well, tonight we`re learning that mother who is locked up in a New York state jail as her defense prepares her case has now been placed on suicide

watch. This as friends and acquaintances and neighbours come forward claiming, "wow, she was a pathological liar and may have even tried to

drown her son in the past." Listen to this --


GEORGE LONGWORTH, WESTCHESTER CO POLICE COMMISSIONER: It took us across five different states, hundreds of interviews, examinations of thousands of

documents and a significant manpower commitment by a number of different agencies.


Just ten days before Garnett died, prosecutors say his mom, Lacey, searched the internet for the dangers of high sodium levels in children. Four days

later, the boy was raced to the hospital after Lacey claims he experienced seizures. Two days later, his sodium levels had skyrocketed, he had to be

flown to another hospital. Four days after that, the poor little boy was dead.

Now, just before he died, Lacey, cops say, told a friend to go to her home, remove a bag from Garnett`s feeding machine, throw it away and never tell

anyone. That bag and another bag were found and both contained extreme concentrations of sodium.

So, cops say, she knew she was doing something wrong straight out of the line. Lisa Lockwood, Lacey is charged with second-degree murder. But if

she intentionally killed Garnett, shouldn`t she be facing a charge of murder one?

LOCKWOOD: Yes, she absolutely should, no question about it. Let`s not even look at the history. Let`s just look at this particular case and

pretend we have no knowledge of what happened prior to this, the five years of her blogging about all of the chronic issues that he had.

Ten days before she`s researching online what are the effects of sodium poisoning? How does it happen? This child is in the hospital being

treated. Mom has access while her son is in the hospital and then tells a neighbour, get rid of evidence. Murder one, absolutely.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excuse me, people are saying, oh, this is Munchausen by proxy syndrome. But the fact is that she knew enough to call a friend and

say, hey, you know that incriminating bag, get rid of it, don`t tell anyone. To me, that`s consciousness of guilt.

CRENSHAW: Well, it does appear to be somewhere premeditated. But that`s part of the practicious disorder that Munchausen actually is. You lie, you

want to play the sick role. And you impose that because by proxy, you impose it onto your son. You do anything to get into the hospital -- its

hospital addiction syndrome. Is she sick? Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa bloom, does Munchausen by proxy syndrome mean you`re legally insane and you don`t know right from wrong? You can`t say, not

guilty by Munchausen by proxy syndrome.

BLOOM: You made my mind because you read my mind, Jane. It`s a psychological explanation for what happened. It is not a legal defense.

Legally, it would be -- insanity defense would be required. And there`s no evidence of that here, that she was so crazy, she didn`t know the

difference between right and wrong, she couldn`t conform her conduct to the laws. So, Munchausen`s is not something that going to help her in this

case. And this case is completely different from the case that we were talking about. There seems to be clear evidence that she intended to harm

her child.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, by the way, Lady Diana on Facebook says -


VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- And I think this is great -- I`m so tired of people murdering other people and pretending to be crazy.

Back to you, Doctor Gabe. Take that.

CRENSHAW: Jane, everybody on here knows how I feel about that. But Munchausen isn`t necessarily the defense. However, we do -- I`m a

psychologist. We do have these disorders. They are in place, not to protect the guilty but what I`m trying to do is trying to educate the

public to see this is what`s happening. Because you can go to the hospital -- it`s not like she wasn`t going to the hospital. It`s not like she was

looking like mad --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: She was going to the hospital like mad. Excuse me, I have to stop you. She took her boy -- hold on a second. She took her boy to

the hospital 23 times by the time he -

CRENSHAW: Of course.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- was age one. OK.

CRENSHAW: That is a part of it.

GRENSHAW: Neighbours say he was totally healthy. Look at this angel. Let me read you some facts about --


GRENSHAW: That`s what Munchausen`s is.


CRENSHAW: It`s a factious disorder because --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have a bad knee cap. I -- you know, I read too much. That doesn`t mean if I commit a crime, I can`t get off on the fact that I

have achy knees, it doesn`t matter.

CRENSHAW: Well, you know, I`m trying --

GREENBERG: Jane, no one saying you get off, no one saying you get off. It`s mitigating, if there`s an explanation, sometimes people don`t do

things just because they`re mean or they`re cruel. Sometimes there are other explanations. It doesn`t mean that it`s not criminal, like Lisa

said. And the doctors say, it means there`s an explanation that should help us to understand that maybe there`s something a little bit off with

her and we need to -


GREENBERG: -- it mitigates what happens.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on one second. I have to get to some facts here. We have some people on Facebook saying, well, "why didn`t the doctors call the

cops long before the child was too sick to revive?"

Now that little Garnett is dead, dark secrets about Lacey`s relationship with the boy are coming out. In fact, I spoke to a friend of Lacey`s who

wants to remain anonymous she told me very disturbing things. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was giving him a bath and basically he was whining because the water was cold. And she was dumping it on his head and

she held him down in the bathtub --

VELEZ-MITCHELL (Voice-over): Oh, my god.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told me at that time, she said, you cannot tell me that you`ve never lost it with your kids. And I said, yes, ma`am, I can

tell you I`ve never lost it with either one of my kids like that, that`s not normal.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, three years - three years before Garnett died somebody in her community, Lacey`s community, called the department of

children and families. That was one of several times that the department of children and families was call

Lisa bloom, I believe that the doctors, had they known all that, would have called the cops earlier. But I don`t think that the medical community when

a kid comes in has the DCF files. And I think they should.

BLOOM: Right. So, that`s on us. That`s on us as a culture. That all these different parts of the bureaucracy to keep records about children and

they`re not sharing. And that`s got to stop. In this era of the internet where I can go online and find out everything about everybody in two

seconds, why can`t we do more to protect our kids? Why can`t doctors have that information so they can know what they`re dealing with here? And it`s

not just a simple medical problem, they got a mom who`s been harming this child for years.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And JD said, "if I was the doctors, I would have called the cops." But JD that`s on Facebook. We know so much more now.

Those doctors had no idea that this horrible backstory existed when this little boy comes in. That`s why they allowed the mother to remain in the

hospital room overnight. And the suspicion is she went into the bathroom with the little boy and may have done something untoward.

We`re going to have more on the other side because Facebook is exploding. And I`m going to take Pam from California, wait right to the next side.

Stay right there.



LONGWORTH: Took us across five different states, hundreds of interviews, examinations of thousands of documents and significant manpower commitment

by a number of different agencies.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Twenty six-year-old mom, Lacey Spears accused of murdering her precious son because she had Munchausen by proxy syndrome. Some say,

she got pretty famous blogging about her courageous battle to save her sickly son who some people said wasn`t sickly at all. She referred to this

boy as, "Garnett, the great," and documented his health struggles on all sort social media and Tweeted things like, "my sweet angel is in the

hospital for the 23rd time, please pray he gets to come home soon." And cops say it was a crock. That the kid was fine. That`s what neighbours

are saying, too.

Let`s go out to the phone lines. The very patient, Cal Pam. California Pam, California, what have you got to say?

PAM, CALIFONIA: What do I have to say? I have to say that anybody that would kill their defenseless child like that deserves to go to prison for

the rest of their life. I don`t think they`re mental or anything. So, a lot of times, there are some people that aren`t mental but these people use

that as an excuse and it really makes my blood boil.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Criminal Defense Attorney, Steve Greenberg, everybody who commits a crime usually perceives themselves as the victim or sick in some

way. I mean, at a certain point, you got to say, well, you`re responsible for your actions.

GREENBERG: What are you basing that on? Everybody who commits a crime considers themselves a victim or sick. That`s - in my experience -

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I believe that. My understanding of psychology, --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- the most violent crimes, you talk to those people, they said, well, I didn`t have this and my childhood was bad -- they have a

victim mentality. That`s why they feel entitled to lash out.

GREENBERG: There are people who commit crimes for different reasons. People commit crimes for business decisions, people commit crimes because

they`re evil, people commit crimes because they`re mentally disturbed. There`s people who commit crimes out of emotion. There`s people who commit

crimes out of impulse. I don`t you can draw any decision. But this lady clearly something`s wrong with her. People don`t kill their own child

unless there`s something wrong. Doesn`t mean she`s not a criminal. Doesn`t mean she`s not evil.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, there`s always something wrong with people who are violent.

Up next, you will not believe who`s in big trouble. It`s a shocker. Can you say gold medals?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A caller said, a woman there was hitting people and refused to leave. When officers arrived, they could hear the fight going

on inside. That`s where they found Solo. She appeared to be drunk and investigators believe she assaulted both her 17-year-old nephew and her





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I looked out my window and I saw a light.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After some interrogation, and investigation, they saw visible injuries on Hope Solo`s 17-year-old nephew and on her sister.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Solo, she appeared to be drunk and investigators believe she assaulted both her 17-year-old nephew and her sister.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is very disappointing especially she`s like the face of U.S. women`s soccer team. So, someone that has that much influence is

doing something look this is pretty sad.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight breaking news as America`s former soccer sweetheart and "Dancing With The Stars" contestant, Hope Solo, you see her

right there, pleads not guilty in front of judge on two counts of fourth degree domestic violence assault.

Hope was arrested after cops say, a man dialed 911 from her sister`s house saying a woman would not stop, "going crazy and hitting people and wouldn`t

leave the house." But now, Hope`s lawyer claims that the sexy soccer star seen here on the cover of ESPN, is the real victim and some say that

somebody allegedly hit the soccer star, hit her over the head with a broom hand.


TODD MAYBROWN, HOPE SOLO`S ATTORNEY: She is not guilty as to all charges.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does it hurt while she confess to this? She was the one that was harmed in the head with a broom handle.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Straight out of the line, Lisa Bloom, legal analyst for

Is she making a good case that she`s the victim here?

BLOOM: Well, just like we were just talking about, everybody is the victim, right? If you are assaulting someone, you are the perpetrator, not

the victim. And we don`t want to hear about your problems, we don`t want to hear about your childhood. This is the way it is. I mean, you cannot

assault someone. She got anger management problems. She got to deal with that. She may have an alcohol issue. She got to deal with that. Once you

assault someone, all of your victimization becomes, you know, really something people don`t want to hear anymore.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hope is popular on the show "Dancing With The Stars." check this out from ABC.


VELEZ-MITCHELL (Voice-over): There she was. I actually was there one night when you was performing to support Nancy Grace when she was on the

show and she walked by, I was like, "you rock, you rock, Hope Solo."

But there were rumours about her temper during the show. She allegedly had disputes with the judges and her partner.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Doctor Gabe Crenshaw, a psychologist is it all a big coincidence?

CRENSHAW: Oh, please, you know it`s not a coincidence, this has - this has anger management written all over it. It has impulse control written all

over it and intermittent explosive disorder. You know, the thing is, look, let me tell you something, because you are a celebrity, etc., seemingly you

can get away from certain things but forget all about that. You human like everybody else. Get yourself into therapy and stop beating up people.

Before you get --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is there another factor? We don`t want to convict her, she is a beautiful, beautiful young woman. And I wish her the best. Is

alcohol a factor? We will discuss that on the other side.



HOPE SOLO, GOALKEEPER, U.S. WOMEN`S SOCCER TEAM: I have a bad rap. People look at me as selfish, outspoken. But, I know who I am. I know my

struggles have allowed me to withhold judgment. And I`m proud of that, I`m happy.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: As we talk about her arrest recently, two years ago on Hope Solo`s wedding day, cops were called to the house. And they say they

found Hope bruised and bloody and her fianc, hiding in a bedroom.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found him upstairs lying on the floor in one of the bedrooms hiding. Well, he said he wasn`t hiding. But he said he was

sleeping on the floor.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hope`s then fiance, now husband was charged with assault of fourth degree of domestic violence. The charges were dropped. Hope

defended him saying nothing happened, nothing to see here. Now, in this latest incident, where cops were called, they say they noticed hope seemed

intoxicated him one of the things in her release is she stay away from alcohol.

I got to ask Lisa bloom, I mean, I am recovering alcohol of 19 years sobriety, could this be alcohol related?

BLOOM: Of course. You know, alcohol is often a very significant factor in domestic violence cases. So that something that she needs to look inward

at herself and stop saying I`m happy with myself, I`m great, everything about me is fine and really considers what`s causing this. The last point

out about whether she is a victim. She could be a victim and an assailant. We see that in domestic violence cases as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, I - that her very briefly she was very charming to me where I say, go, go, Hope Solo and I wish her the best. I

have - in recovery 19 years of alcoholism, so I know about the comprehensive demoralization that it can bring. And I also know you can do

something about it. So, if -- if that`s a problem I certainly hope you do so, you are beautiful, you are you talented, you are a great soccer player,

you are a great dancer, you got a whole life to lead.

By the way, Chad of Facebook says, who does she think she is, Beyonce`s sister? That`s a good one.

Nancy is next.