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DR. DREW

Missing Girl Mystery; Mom Lists Kids on Craigslist

Aired July 29, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the teen kidnapping suspect and the girl he allegedly abducted, face-to-face. Was she kept in

a shipping container in his backyard?

Plus, a mother attempts to sell her five children on Craigslist. You`ll hear from her.

Let`s get started.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Good evening, everyone. My co-host is Samantha Schacher.

And coming up, a killer dream being used as a defense for attempted murder.

Samantha, this is crazy.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: I know. And, Drew, this woman claims she was dreaming of filleting a fish.

PINSKY: Fillet a fish, fillet a neck in that case, though, it turned out. We`ll get into that.

SCHACHER: Sound fishy to me.

PINSKY: A little comedy here, Sam. Way to go.

First up, though, we have some new and disturbing developments in the case of Abby Hernandez, the 15-year-old who vanished from nine-months and then

mysteriously appeared just last week on the very same road where she had disappeared. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Police have arrested this man, 34 years old Nathaniel Kibby. He`s charged with, quote, "felony kidnapping" for knowingly kidnapping Abigail

Hernandez.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We used the most sophisticated investigative techniques in this case, from cell phone tower analysis to social media analysis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-four-year-old Nate Kibby answering to a felony kidnapping charge. The victim, 15-year-old Abigail Hernandez, sitting just

feet away with her mother in the courtroom. Kibby shackled and wearing a bright orange jail clothing peered around. The two never made eye contact.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state is recommending became be set at $1 million.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kibby arrested at his Gorham, New Hampshire, trailer, with a metal storage container behind the trailer. Investigators won`t

sigh whether or not that`s where Abby was held against her will for the last nine months.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Joining us to discuss, Anahita Sedaghatfar from AnahitaLaw.com, Segun Oduolowu, host of "The Wired In with Segun" podcast, and Kristin

Brockman, host of the new TV show, "Hollywood Today Live."

Anahita, did you think it was peculiar she was in court today when she really didn`t need to be there, didn`t she?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ANAHITALAW.COM: I did. I found that so strange, Dr. Drew. I`m not sure that was the right thing for her to do. She`s trying

to heal right now. She just got back from supposedly being kidnapped for nine months.

And, no, she didn`t need to be there. She was just sitting there. She was almost so confident. She seemed a little defiant. She had this aggressive

look on her face.

I don`t know. I`m not sure that was the right thing for her to be doing.

PINSKY: Segun is shaking his head.

What`s say you about that front row appearance? And I wonder, Segun, do you sense what Anahita suggesting, is that there`s some relationship

between these two? No, no, Samantha, I`m not saying romantic relationship, but some sort of familiarity.

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, here`s my problem with Anahita, who I`m sure is a brilliant lawyer. I didn`t know she had become the body

language expert. The fact that she`s there, who are you to judge how she (AUDIO GAP) comes across with her pain. If she wants to sit in the front

row and show --

(CROSSTALK)

SEDAGHATFAR: I wasn`t saying that she was grieving. I`m just saying if I was her mother and my daughter was kidnapped for nine months and she`s 15

years old, would I have her show up at an arraignment? She doesn`t need to be there.

ODUOLOWU: But, Anahita, your initial statement was she was sitting there confident. What does her sitting there confident have anything to do with

the crime that may have been committed against her? I have my doubts about that crime, but I`m not going to judge a girl sitting at the front row and

looking at her attacker in court.

PINSKY: Samantha, are you going to pile in on us?

SCHACHER: Yes. Listen, first of all, there are a lot of doubts about this crime. I think that`s B.S. I don`t think it`s fair at all. There`s not

enough evidence out there to warn all of us to even question the mother and her story, to question this poor girl.

From what I see, it looks like she was kidnapped, possibly held in this shipping container, possibly experiencing nine months of hell, and then she

hears everybody questioning her story? That`s further re-victimizing her.

PINSKY: Could be, Samantha. Good point.

We`ve got some more details about Nathaniel Kibby`s past. Let me just list some of them for you guys. Kristen, I`ll give you a chance to react.

High school classmates described him as an outcast. He was sort of in and out of the system for a long time. In `98, he was convicted of assaulting

a 16-year-old girl, grabbed her on the neck, wouldn`t let her leave. He apparently went to prison at one point, wound up in the psych unit after

threatening suicide. In another assault incident, he was in court for allegedly pushing a woman to the ground after he rear-ended her car, and he

may have been in court recently during the time Abby was missing in December, someone with his name showed up to pay a $300 fine for marijuana

possession.

Kristen, the guy is, you know, has some issues. He could easily have kidnapped the young girl, right?

KRISTEN BROCKMAN: Right. That doesn`t mean he`s guilty, but so oftentimes these criminals that do these things, do have lengthy criminal history. I

can`t help, when we hear the speculation about her being kept in the backyard in this container, you know, it`s all too familiar of Ariel

Castro, Phillip Garrido.

But back to her sitting on the front row, I have to say I think it`s very brave. To me that says that that`s somebody who wants to stick it to him

for what he`s done.

SCHACHER: Agreed.

PINSKY: Segun, you seem to be having --

ODUOLOWU: Oh, yes. My question for Kristen is I just have a hard time believing that the trailer park idiot kidnapped a girl for nine months,

kept her in a sound proof --

PINSKY: Nobody knew.

ODUOLOWU: But kept her away, and then she magically appears on the doorstep? Listen, she`s reunited with her month --

PINSKY: Which side are you on? Are you saying he`s guilty?

ODUOLOWU: No, I never said --

PINSKY: What`s confuse being this case?

ODUOLOWU: He`s not guilty until proven guilty. I`ll give Anahita credit for beating that into my head. But I`m not going to judge him. I`m not

going to judge her --

PINSKY: Go ahead, Kristen.

BROCKMAN: Well, like Samantha said, I think there`s just so little evidence right now that it`s hard to point one way or the other. But, you

know, they`re talking about her unhealthy appearance, if she was (AUDIO GAP) somewhere like that. If you look at the pictures of her on the

internet when they were looking for her versus the pictures shown in court today, she does look unhealthy. So, that could be something.

PINSKY: It is -- what? Anahita, what?

SEDAGHATFAR: I was going to say it doesn`t matter whether or not this guy was some stranger that kidnapped her, someone she doesn`t know, or if he

was someone who groomed her, maybe he was a pedophile, and he manipulated her and she went with him voluntarily, because what I suspect is that the

felony he`s going to be part with that`s part of the kidnapping charge is going to be sexual assault. It doesn`t matter if she went with him

voluntarily or not, because a 15-year-old cannot consent to sex. So, it`s irrelevant.

PINSKY: That`s right. No, listen, let`s remind ourselves that she`s 15, she`s the victim, no matter whether she had a familiarity with him or not.

There`s not been any allegations of sexual misconduct yet.

We don`t know much of anything, because the D.A. is not telling us much. All we had yesterday was what seemed like a peculiar reaction on the mom`s

part and now the daughter`s. We`re just discussing or feelings about the way people reacted to this. For instance, one of the things I have

concerns about.

Sam, I know you`re throwing your hands up. Just two things. Everybody think about this across the break. Where was her dad? Why wasn`t he

freaking out?

And mom, why wasn`t she losing her mind in front of the press, as opposed to going, mommy, please come home. I want to convince you, you need to

come home now.

SCHACHER: Can we at least give her the benefit of the doubt that in her statement, "I`m grateful I was released"?

PINSKY: A show of hands. The 15-year-old a victim, hands up, 100 percent.

Segun, come on.

ODUOLOWU: I don`t know. I don`t know.

SEDAGHATFAR: Regardless of whether she went voluntarily or not, that`s the point.

PINSKY: Right. That is the point.

ODUOLOWU: He could have manipulated the --

PINSKY: Doesn`t matter. Doesn`t matter. He`s the adult in the situation.

Let`s get more into the man`s charge and his past brushes with the law when we bring in the behavior bureau.

And later, please say -- this is a story we told you about earlier -- a wife slashed her husband`s throat while he slept, but her defense --

Anahita, you`ll love this, I know you use it somebody -- it was all just a dream.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-four-year-old Nate Kibby answering to a felony kidnapping charge.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was like looking at the face of evil.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abby went missing after school last October, touching off a massive effort to find her before she returned last week.

PROSECUTOR: I cannot tell you how a child like that can get through the nine months and endure, but she has done that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family friend sat in court with Abby and her family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abby`s decision to be here, and Abby`s mom decision was -- their decision certainly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abby and her family left the courthouse without comment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam.

We`re discussing the 34-year-old man who allegedly held Abby Hernandez against her will for nine months.

Let`s bring in our behavior bureau. Karamo Brown, host of #OWNShow on Oprah.com, Jennifer Keitt, life coach and radio host, and Emily Roberts,

psychotherapist.

Sam, more details on Kibby than I present in the last block. Tell me some more.

SCHACHER: Yes. OK. So, one neighbor said he`s a loner, known as crazy Nate. She said she tells girls to stay away from his trailer. A guy from

high school said he was an oddball who wore trench coats and talked about how he was a vampire.

And then, also, they said that he lived by himself ever since that his girlfriend moved out two or three years ago. They also described him as a

gun enthusiast and antigovernment fanatic.

PINSKY: Fantastic.

Jennifer, based on what we`ve learned and what little we heard about Abby, we just don`t know much, you think -- I keep asking this question, and

again just to help us understand why we`re feeling funny about it, do you think there was -- that the mom knew? You`re saying yes?

JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I`m saying yes.

PINSKY: There`s something missing in this story. Yes, go ahead.

KEITT: Here`s by personal experience, I was 15, an older gentleman took an interest in me. I have to be totally honest with you. I was infatuated

with that.

At 15 years old, you are looking up to these guys. I believe what I saw on her face was maybe a mixture of empowerment, but really guilt as well. Not

guilt that she did anything wrong, but if she fell for it, if she fell for him, if she went away in the beginning with hopes and dreams and then it

turned into this entire nightmare that she found herself in.

PINSKY: That`s right.

KEITT: When I think back to when I was 15, you know what I`m saying? I could have easily been here.

PINSKY: It makes her no less of a victim, but it helps us understand why we`re having this funny reaction. Sam, you have trouble with that, though.

SCHACHER: I mean, she had a boyfriend she supposedly was in love with, are you saying she had this boyfriend and at the same time she was being

groomed by this man? It`s also in my opinion you`re assassinating her character, you don`t know.

PINSKY: No, no, no, Samantha, not at all.

KEITT: No, no, no, no.

PINSKY: In fact, Jennifer is identifying with her.

SCHACHER: She had a boyfriend.

KEITT: Not at all. Wait. When a 34-year-old man takes an interest in you and you`re 15 years old, and she`s a beautiful girl, you don`t know what

she was saying to her. I don`t care how great her boyfriend was. I had boyfriends, too, but when an older man takes advantage of the fact that you

are vulnerable, you are young, fresh, you`re hot, you can`t tell me she was any match for him.

SCHACHER: I agree, but I don`t think this is the case.

PINSKY: Well, we get you, but, Emily, that sort of how it happens. If we were to play stats, this would be, Jennifer is describing kind of a common

scenario, and we`re learning tonight also, there had been reportedly a messy divorce between the parents, which could really set the girl up for

this kind of grooming, right?

EMILY ROBERTS: Absolutely. We don`t have enough evidence yet to at least -- I want to know what was going on with regards to like what they were

doing online? What were his records or her records?

PINSKY: Right.

ROBERTS: You also make a great point trauma reorganizes the nervous system, whether it was a messy divorce, if it was something that happened

at school, whatever the case, clearly she has some issues with men. Not to say she`s not a victim. Absolutely she`s a victim. She`s 14, 15 now.

She`s a kid. It`s kidnapping regardless.

PINSKY: That`s right. It doesn`t -- Sam, I think you`re thinking we`re somehow thinking less of her.

SCHACHER: Oh, no, no, no, hold on. I agree with you completely that that could be a scenario, but I don`t like the fact that everyone is jumping to

that being the scenario, when we don`t know that.

PINSKY: Fair enough.

So, Karamo, you settle the score.

KARAMO BROWN, #OWNSHOW: Kidnap, no, manipulated yes. I don`t agree -- I think she took part in this, like she was groomed by this older man. Of

course, she is a victim. I feel very bad for the situation, but I do not think she was kidnapped. I think she was manipulated and groomed by the

plan.

ROBERTS: She`s still a kid.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Let me throw this to Jennifer since you`re sort of identifying with her. Having been somehow am bivalent about the circumstances that she

got into makes it more traumatizing, not less, or at least differently.

KEITT: I agree. I agree. It`s so funny. Now that you`re talking about the story in it`s totality, because I didn`t realize about the divorce you

mentioned today, that was me. That was me. We don`t know how vulnerable or girls are when we are going through life and we don`t have father

figures, and we`re looking for that love, that admiration.

Once again, I know we don`t have all of the facts. All I am saying is that face, that face looks like empowered, but it also looks like, oh, my God,

maybe I got in over my head. I want to see this thing to the absolute end. I agree that she should have been there. That`s liberating for her, but I

don`t know that I wholeheartedly agree that she wasn`t in some kind of way sucked into this, and so much, you know, her mind was involved.

PINSKY: Yes, and, Emily, I said somebody powerful, I want to reiterate it. Trauma reorganizes the nervous system. We just hope this young girl

against treatment. She will need it, regardless of what the legal nuances or what the specifics are of this case. She was traumatized by this guy.

This is traumatic for her what she`s going through right now.

Thank you, guys.

Next up, a mom try tries to sell her kids -- speaking of trauma, tries to sell her kids on Craigslist. You`re going to hear from her. She`s going

to talk to me.

And later, she said dreams made her do it, but police say a wife`s attempt at murder was a real-life nightmare. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I was not trying to give kids away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that`s exactly what social workers thought (INAUDIBLE) Johnson was trying to do, when she posted this ad on Craigslist

two weeks ago, asking for someone to, quote, "take my five kids until I can find a job and a place to live."

UNIDENTIFEID FEMALE: The Craigslist ad was intended to find somewhere to live for me and all the kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But two days after that posting, all five kids, ranging in age from 2 to 9, were removed from her custody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I look back at the ad, I saw that it did kind of seem as if I was trying to give up the kids, but I didn`t think they were

going to charge me with neglect and tell me I can`t see the kids except for if a social worker supervised it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I`m back with Sam, Anahita, Segun and Kristen.

It is our most tweeted story of the day. That woman, 32-year-old mom, eight months pregnant now with her sixth child, says she regrets the ad`s

wording, but does not regret asking for help. We will speak to her directly in just a moment. But, first, Sam, you got a copy of the ad.

Share it with us if you will.

SCHACHER: I do. And you mentioned Twitter, our Twitter followers are actually really sympathetic towards her.

PINSKY: No kidding.

SCHACHER: Yes.

Now, the ad is still on Craigslist, Dr. Drew. It was posted on July 9th. The header is five kids in need of a temporary home.

It reads, "I`m currently homeless, and looking for someone to take my five kids until I can find a job and place to live. I called DSS and they won`t

take them. The shelter has a waiting list and urban ministries won`t let you work if you come there. I am a certified nursing assistant, but can`t

find work due to numerous doctors` appointments, because my 6-year-old accidentally hung himself. Please help, anyone."

PINSKY: Oh, my gosh.

SCHACHER: I know.

In regard to the hanging story, her 6-year-old reportedly hung himself on the ends of a yarn hat, and he was discovered dangling from a clothing

rack, I know, in a closet.

Now, the mom had to then immediately administer CPR, but her other children were watching. That`s why they all have to go to trauma therapy.

PINSKY: I`m so -- Anahita, you`re saying hmm, what does that mean?

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. I mean, I just -- as angry as I am, clearly this ad was stupid, whether or not she was trying to ask someone to take her kids or

she wanted a home for all of them, it was stupid.

But I have sympathy for this woman. I mean, She had five young kids, she`s homeless, 7 months pregnant, Dr. Drew, and she did the right thing. She

tried to reach out to the right agencies. I think three of them turned her down. So, I feel bad for her. Maybe we need to look into those agencies.

PINSKY: I see Segun coming on with something to say here.

ODUOLOWU: Yes, this is one of these things where I`m going to get jumped on Twitter and on the show. I have no sympathy for this woman. In fact,

as a black man, I really feel that she just set the race back about 50 years.

Here`s my problem. You`re a health care worker, how come you have those many kids and no dad around? Put a condom on. I`m not buying the story

that the wording on her Craigslist`s ad, a Craigslist ad, because we did a couple stories a while back how Craigslist is not the place you want to go

to advertise for anything having to do with people.

I have no sympathy for this woman. You`ve got to know better. And don`t tell me the wording was bad. If you`re a health care professional, I`m

going to assume you have the requisite intelligence not to word it that way.

I don`t buy it. I`m so mad as a black person. I feel disgraced and ashamed that this woman shares the same pigment as me.

PINSKY: So, trauma therapy going out to Samantha.

SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh. Using your famous words, Segun -- shame on you.

ODUOLOWU: I`ll take it, I`ll take it.

SCHACHER: OK, this woman is not in my opinion, a neglectful mother who`s trying to pawn her kids off. In fact I think she`s quite the opposite. It

takes a lot of discipline to become a certified nursing assistant while being a single mother of five. She lost her job, Segun.

(CROSSTALK)

ODUOLOWU: Sam, don`t do that. Don`t do that, Sam.

SCHACHER: She`s desperate. And you`re kicking her while she`s done.

ODUOLOWU: Do not give me the hooker with a heart of gold story, Sam. What kind of discipline does it take to put a condom on or birth control not to

have six kids. Eight months pregnant --

SCHACHER: So, she deserves this?

ODUOLOWU: Come on.

PINSKY: Kristen, help me out here. Kristen, what do you got?

BROCKMAN: She`s claiming she lost her job to begin with, because she missed work so much because she was taking this child to the doctor`s

appointments and to these therapy appointments for the other children. So, I don`t think she truly doesn`t care about her children or she would never

have done that to begin with.

PINSKY: Of course.

(CROSSTALK)

ODUOLOWU: I`m not saying she didn`t care about her kids. I`m saying, c`mon, you got five of them, one of them hung himself in the closet. Where

is the responsibility as a mother and as a woman? The fact that you are defending this sad example of a woman --

BROCKMAN: I`m not saying a seventh child is a good idea.

PINSKY: We wanted to give her a chance to defend herself, because I have a feeling, the one point that Segun is making is that too many kids may be a

legitimate concern, but what`s going on in the household that made her so desperate is what I want to know? Anahita, you have one more comment.

SEDAGHATFAR: No, I actually agree with Segun, but yes, there needs to be some personal responsibility. Stop having kids of you can`t take care of

them. But she tried, Dr. Drew, she reached out to the appropriate agencies. Where is their accountability here?

PINSKY: Well, that`s a great point, but I have a feeling there`s more going on here than we know just yet. I suspect.

This poor man -- let`s give her one thing. Something made her desperate. Yes, Segun, maybe she had too many kids. She had overhead with the kids

and all, but something made her very desperate. I want to give her a chance to tell us what happened, why she went to the lengths, why the

system failed her.

She will join me next live. She`ll be here with us, she`ll be right with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Johnson says she only turned to Craigslist after social services denied her request to temporarily place the kids together in

foster care. She says local charities also turned her down. Johnson tells me her kids` medical bills have put her in a desperate financial situation.

The oldest one has behavior issues. And her 6-year-old nearly hanged himself by accident back in April. That near death prompted social

services to open an investigation, before the Craigslist ad even went up.

Johnson, who is expecting her sixth child, regrets the ad`s wording, but does not regret asking for help.

JOHNSON: If you need some help, ask for it. Don`t stay in a bad situation.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PINSKY: We`re back with Sam and our behavior bureau, Karamo, Emily and Jennifer.

Well, Moshimalee Johnson says she posted the ad on Craigslist after other means of finding temporary housing had been exhausted. She is single,

eight months pregnant with a sixth child. We will talk to her in just a second.

But first, Jennifer, you all -- you all have an interesting affect, that you`re -- you`re all taken by this story and by Segun`s comments, I think.

What say you, Jennifer?

KEITT: Yes. Well, I feel like I have to say something because Segun brought the race right into it, right there on the table.

So I -- I do not feel embarrassed to be black. I am questioning, though, her choices.

And what I mean by that is, I do happen to agree with Segun, condoms don`t cost as much as it does to have a child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

KEITT: That`s first.

Secondly, here`s my biggest, biggest problem. Where are those children`s father?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

KEITT: And why isn`t he...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

KEITT: -- being hung out to dry with her?

She should not have ever had to go to Craigslist, because where is the man...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

KEITT: -- that helped her to get those children?

(CROSSTALK)

KEITT: That is my biggest problem with this story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There you go. I -- I am dead -- I`m 100 percent.

KEITT: She should have gone to him first.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

PINSKY: Complete -- and maybe she did.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Emily, I see you just practically jumping -- doing a jumping Jack in regard to that. Tell me.

ROBERTS: Yes.

I mean where are the dad or dads here?

I mean they don`t have a -- she`s going to have another kid. That`s six kids.

I can`t even take care of like one kid, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

ROBERTS: And who is going to take care of this if she does get the funding or she does get the child support?

I mean there really needs to be another parent or family member in the picture.

Also, what about the money?

Where is the child support coming from?

Is there any?

I just have so many questions that I would love to ask her.

PINSKY: Yes. Well, I`ll get to her in a second.

I will give Karamo a chance before I go to Moshimalee.

Go ahead.

BROWN: Well, immediately, I want to say, as a black man, that I completely disagree with Segun. I completely disagree with Jennifer. I applaud Ms.

Johnson for what she`s done.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

BROWN: And I`m thankful that she asked for help. As someone who works in social services, I know how hard it is to get those.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

BROWN: And the no matter if the father is there or not...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well...

BROWN: -- I want to talk about the fact that this woman tried to help her children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

BROWN: And I applaud her for doing that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

KEITT: She tried to help her...

SCHACHER: And I applaud you, Karamo.

KEITT: -- children without going -- exactly. I mean I`ve got four kids and I try...

BROWN: And I have two...

KEITT: -- too.

BROWN: And I have tried...

KEITT: But I try...

BROWN: I am a single father.

KEITT: But come on, now...

BROWN: And I take care of both my children.

KEITT: She can`t just...

BROWN: And she`s just trying her best. And I also work...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: -- in social services and I know how hard it is for mothers to get services...

PINSKY: Yes.

BROWN: -- and to get help.

PINSKY: That`s right.

KEITT: But they shouldn`t have to do it alone, though, that`s the point. Because he laid down with her to have those children, too.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, let`s not...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s not blame her.

KEITT: She should have never had to do it alone...

(CROSSTALK)

KEITT: -- never.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But it happened.

Now what do we do?

KEITT: Never.

Why is she getting blamed?

PINSKY: Everybody is right.

KEITT: He has to come forward.

PINSKY: Everybody is right.

Let`s go to the source.

On the phone, I`ve got Moshimalee Johnson.

She is the mom who has lost her five children, which is also think is a tragedy, after this post on Craigslist.

Moshimalee, it was -- help us understand what happened here.

What -- what led you to this point of desperation?

MOSHIMALEE JOHNSON: Thank you for calling.

I`m trying not to laugh, because it`s very funny to hear somebody arguing over me that I don`t even know.

But I have a very long past. And sometimes family is not always the best option.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

JOHNSON: And I don`t really have a big support system. And I take care of my kids by myself.

All the kids (INAUDIBLE)...

PINSKY: Where...

JOHNSON: -- all the kids have the same father...

PINSKY: Moshimalee, I want to ask you.

Is there -- is there more than one dad involved?

And if so...

JOHNSON: No, all the children have the same father.

PINSKY: And where is he?

Where is the guy?

He`s the guy we really want to hold accountable for you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

JOHNSON: I know, right?

PINSKY: Where is he?

JOHNSON: He, um, he has some issues.

PINSKY: Yes, no kidding. But that...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: -- he left you with more issues. And now the kids have issues because of his issues.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

JOHNSON: Yes. So I don`t really, you know, like to go into blaming other people. I just...

PINSKY: No, I don`t want to blame...

JOHNSON: -- I take responsibility...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: OK. Yes. All right.

JOHNSON: -- for my children. And I can`t depend on other people to help me. The only thing I can do is depend on what I can do.

PINSKY: Moshimalee, hold on one second.

Karamo, do you want to respond to something?

KARAMO BROWN: Yes, Ms. Johnson, I wanted to say thank you so much for, first of all, stepping up and trying to help your children.

What I want to know from you is what are you planning on doing?

Because I recognize you. I`m -- I`m like you. I`m with you.

What are you doing to recognize -- to help this cycle be broken?

Because I recognize there`s some form of abuse that`s happening here...

PINSKY: Right. OK. So, Karamo, what you heard -- and I heard it, too -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

PINSKY: -- she said she had some issues. We`re going to -- we`re not pointing fingers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

PINSKY: But something set her up, some trauma set her up to be the way -- to make some of the choices she has made.

And now that trauma being...

JOHNSON: (INAUDIBLE) five children (INAUDIBLE) change and just standing for what I believe and being different, because there`s so many people, you

know, who have families, who have secrets. And, you know, there comes a point in time where you just have to separate yourself, because you can`t

convince everybody to be normal.

PINSKY: So, Moshimalee, getting out of that house is what made you help -- getting out of family of origin is what ended up with you being homeless,

is that accurate?

JOHNSON: Somewhat.

PINSKY: OK.

But when you say...

JOHNSON: But, yes, I`m just trying to get my kids into a safe place for a temporary time until I can save up enough money to get my own place.

PINSKY: Right.

JOHNSON: I was in foster care myself for five years. And that was probably the best thing that happened to me. It`s been an eye-opener,

being here with my family for the past year. So I really feel like I need to be there to make some changes within my family. But I need to help

myself before I can try to save my family. But at the same time...

PINSKY: Let me ask you something...

JOHNSON: -- (INAUDIBLE).

PINSKY: -- Moshimalee, I agree with you. You know, we always say you`ve got to put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on children or

anybody who`s dependent upon you. But we`re seeing images of your son that hung himself.

How is he doing?

JOHNSON: Amazing.

PINSKY: OK. He`s good.

JOHNSON: Nothing but a miracle.

PINSKY: And what happened there?

We were trying to make sense of that, too.

JOHNSON: My two kids informed me that they saw this on the video games. And my oldest son believes that you can get dug up and come back as a

zombie.

PINSKY: Wow!

JOHNSON: Yes.

PINSKY: Emily, you reacted to that.

JOHNSON: Yes.

EMILY ROBERTS: Yes.

JOHNSON: I found him hanging in the closet. And just by the grace of God, I was able to do CPR and, you know, revive him. And he stayed in the

hospital for almost two weeks. And since then, he`s had numerous follow-up appointments. And I haven`t been able to go back to work. (INAUDIBLE)...

PINSKY: Moshimalee, let me ask one last question.

That -- I think people that would be critical of your circumstance would say too many kids. That`s what Segun`s basic point was.

What do you say to people that -- that want to hold you accountable for having too many children to be able to manage all this?

JOHNSON: Well, the kids are here already. I can`t make the kids disappear. I have to make the best that I can make (INAUDIBLE)...

PINSKY: No, I understand.

JOHNSON: -- take care of them now that they`re all here.

PINSKY: Of course. Of course.

But is there any response you have to your critics who might say that?

JOHNSON: No. All my kids are by the same father. I`ve worked since I was 14. I`ve never been on welfare. I just had a tragic situation and it

caused financial problems.

PINSKY: Yes.

JOHNSON: And in the middle of that, you know, I discovered that family is not always the best option to be around.

PINSKY: Yes. And...

JOHNSON: And I just made a difficult decision. And I just felt like it was best to try to place my kids in foster care until I could get my own

place. I don`t have friends that, you know, could have helped me, and my family, I don`t really deal with them.

PINSKY: Moshimalee, I think I -- I hear what you`re saying. We don`t want to point fingers anywhere, but I think it`s complicated. I get it.

I just want to thank you for sharing your story and helping us make sense of it all.

It`s messy, Karamo.

That`s -- that`s the one thing that you were saying. But it is easy to say, too many kids. Anybody, please don`t -- with the kids. It`s

something that -- that all of us need to sort of be more responsible around, before you do get yourself in a situation like this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

PINSKY: All right.

Now, we`re going to switch gears entirely. Police say a wife slashed her husband in her sleep while he was sleeping. The wife has a defense that

we`re calling fishy. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She made threats that she would kill him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say she sliced her husband`s throat with a knife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got stitches from almost here to here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joan`s daughter told investigators her mother had been planning this for about a year.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Jennifer, Anahita and Segun.

Was a woman dreaming about filleting a fish when she slit her husband, who was asleep, slit his throat?

That is her story.

The couple`s teenaged daughter called 911. The father is going to survive.

Anahita, this is a good one for you.

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, I knew you were going to come to me with this.

PINSKY: This is a defense.

Oh, of course I`m going to come to you. You -- you -- did a defense attorney dream this one up or is this woman onto something?

SEDAGHATFAR: Well, Dr. Drew, there are cases where people do things in their sleep. There`s been cases where people are dreaming...

PINSKY: OK.

SEDAGHATFAR: -- and they`re eating...

PINSKY: Well...

SEDAGHATFAR: -- they`re having sex, even...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guess what...

SEDAGHATFAR: -- in their sleep.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, so you can blame that, too, if you were with somebody you didn`t want to be with.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But our Facebook friends...

SEDAGHATFAR: Or it could happen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our Facebook friends are wondering if she took an Ambien...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- which is a medication that`s hypnotic that -- that also (INAUDIBLE) he does have another good defense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

PINSKY: I mean people have used that one, which is a, you know, can cause amnesia and can cause people to do things.

But before I get to the panel, let me -- Anahita, let me play your expert witness, OK?

SEDAGHATFAR: OK.

PINSKY: I`ll be (INAUDIBLE) as -- here you go.

So the reality is, counselor. This is a behavior that`s not unheard of. It`s REM sleep disorder. It involves kicking, punching, jumping during --

during these dreams where the people can actually talk and laugh and scream.

Dreams are involved, usually being chased or attacked. And, of course, when you wake the person up, they can recall the dream.

Some of the risk factors include neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson`s, chronic sleep disorders like narcolepsy, even insomnia,

antidepressant medication, as we said, the hypnotic medication. Manias can be associated with this. I`ve seen that before. And drug and alcohol

withdrawal or drug and alcohol intoxication.

So there you go, Counselor.

SEDAGHATFAR: Thank you.

PINSKY: You`ve got the perfect defense.

SEDAGHATFAR: That`s a perfect expert witness. I`d like to retain you for my next case, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Now -- OK.

SEDAGHATFAR: You know, if it happens, I think you just explained it very well. I think in this case, it might be a little difficult...

PINSKY: Well...

SEDAGHATFAR: -- because there are other facts here.

PINSKY: OK. Well, those other factors, Segun, the couple`s daughter thinks her mother may have been planning to kill her father for at least a

year.

ODUOLOWU: I cannot believe we`re having this much discourse on a woman who said she sleep dreamed slicing...

PINSKY: Sleep sliced.

SEGUN ODUOLOWU: Sleep sliced. I mean I`ve heard of sleepwalking, sleep eating, but sleep slicing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.

ODUOLOWU: She dreamed she was filleting a fish?

What happened if she thought...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

ODUOLOWU: -- she was deboning a chicken?

Like don`t try this story...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: It would be nasty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh.

ODUOLOWU: Come on.

PINSKY: It would be.

ODUOLOWU: On -- don`t defend it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Jennifer, in 2013, she was charged with disorderly conduct for threatening to stab her husband.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

PINSKY: Later that same year...

KEITT: When a woman...

PINSKY: -- was charged with domestic violence for threatening the husband`s life.

Jennifer, what do you think now?

KEITT: When a woman tells you, I`m going to kill you, you had better believe it.

(CROSSTALK)

KEITT: When she gets to that point with her man...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

KEITT: -- that she is saying I am going to slice and dice, he`d better sleep with one eye open.

I am sorry. I`m sorry, Dr. Drew, I`m not in your profession, but I do not -- I believe that woman had every intent of slicing and dicing.

PINSKY: Sam?

It seems like it.

Sam?

SCHACHER: Yes, when I first read the headline, I was like, oh, come on. What an embarrassing stupid joke of a defense.

And then I did try to give her the benefit of the doubt and it does say maybe she did have some sort of history of a sleep disorder. Maybe she`s a

woman of character.

But don`t worry, Segun, because then I did my research and I thought, oh, wow, I should have trusted my first gut instinct.

Yes, her own daughter believes that she premeditated this for a year. She has a criminal history against her own husband for domestic violence.

And she, as Jennifer just so eloquently said, used to threaten her husband to kill him.

Why didn`t he leave?

SEDAGHATFAR: Right. That`s my...

(CROSSTALK)

SEDAGHATFAR: -- that`s my question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, we talk about codependency sometimes.

Why would this husband continue to sleep in a bed with her, live with her, after she`s been already convicted twice for domestic violence against him?

She`s threatened to kill him.

PINSKY: And why did she have a knife...

SEDAGHATFAR: What does that say about him?

PINSKY: Look at that Tweet...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: -- next to the...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: -- the Twitter next to your -- next to Anahita`s head there.

It says, "Why did she have a knife in her bedroom?"

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

ODUOLOWU: But no one...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was one of the...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- I was pointing to.

ODUOLOWU: No one has seen "Basic Instincts?"

PINSKY: Well, that`s...

ODUOLOWU: -- the knife and the pitcher -- and the ice pick beside the bed?

Crazy sex is hot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ooh.

(CROSSTALK)

ODUOLOWU: We`re not on the same block, but, Jennifer, if I had a dollar for every time a woman said she was going to kill me that I was dating, I`d

have about $55. So I...

(CROSSTALK)

KEITT: You`d better sleep with one eye open. You`d better sleep with one eye open, that`s all I`m saying, Segun.

(CROSSTALK)

SEDAGHATFAR: But that doesn`t negate the fact that...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s all I`m saying.

SEDAGHATFAR: -- that this does happen. This is a phenomenon. It`s been proven in cases...

PINSKY: Yes. Well, I`m your expert witness.

SEDAGHATFAR: You`re my expert witness.

PINSKY: (INAUDIBLE) I`ll tell you -- yes.

SEDAGHATFAR: Who could be better?

PINSKY: It does...

SEDAGHATFAR: It happens.

PINSKY: It does happen.

SEDAGHATFAR: Right.

PINSKY: However, all the -- counselor, all these -- I feel a little embarrassed that I chose to be your expert witness, because all of these

circumstances surrounding this case you didn`t tell me about.

ODUOLOWU: Sleep slicing, really.

SEDAGHATFAR: You should be proud to be my expert witness, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: I guess I would be.

But let`s get -- here`s what we`re going to do. We`re going to take a little break and then I want to get some of your Facebook/social media

comments about this story. It turns out a lot of you right now are blaming Ambien, which is another reasonable thing, because you`ve all taken it and

done a lot of crazy stuff. I`m hearing -- the producers are telling me that you`ve got a bunch of stuff you want to report, so we`ll get that out

in just a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She made threats that she would kill him. And she almost did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn`t the first time Judy Jones thought about killing her husband. Investigators say she sliced her husband`s throat

with a knife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got stitches from almost ear to ear.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Jennifer, Anahita and Segun.

Police say they`ve never quite heard an explanation like this one before. The woman says she slashed her husband`s throat while he slept because she

was dreaming about filleting a fish. She -- she had to go into that kind of detail, guys. She couldn`t just say I didn`t know what was going on, I

was dreaming and I was thinking somebody was chasing me and I slashed.

And, again, we have not answered the question, ladies and gentlemen, about why the knife in the bedroom, other than Segun had seen a movie where

somebody did that.

Anahita, what about the knife in the bedroom?

SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think that`s going to help her case. That was one of the facts that I was going to bring up, to say although this is a plausible

defense because it happens, we know the side effects of these sleeping pills. But she had a knife. She had two priors. She had already

threatened to kill him. Her own daughter says that this was planned. So I don`t think -- I do think this is going to be a good defense for her, as

much as I would like it to be, Dr. Drew, I just don`t see it.

PINSKY: Sam says yes?

SCHACHER: Yes, I mean, so then did Lorena Bobbit dream of slicing a hot dog?

ODUOLOWU: Well, she was wide awake. She was wide awake.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: I mean that`s my point, though. Like give me a break. And the fact that there`s so much history here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

SCHACHER: And I`m curious as to why this -- the daughter was aware of this premeditation for a year...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it`s weird.

SCHACHER: -- a whole year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she was...

SCHACHER: Why was the husband still with her?

I still don`t understand that (INAUDIBLE)...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, he loved her, Anahita.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was in love with her.

ODUOLOWU: Every guy can defend that. Crazy sex is awesome.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Co-dependency.

ODUOLOWU: But, no, crazy sex is awesome. That`s why we stay with crazy women. And that`s -- that`s there for anyone`s interpretation.

But a lot of people are talking about whether or not it was Ambien. And as someone who doesn`t like to fly and knows that Ambien helps millions of

people get over their fear of flying or are sedated on a plane, I don`t think that Ambien or drugs -- and if she uses that defense, I don`t think

that`s the case. I know people are writing in Tweeting and Tweeting us and on Facebook saying, well, she -- I`ve driven my car on Ambien.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, let...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s your crazy...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: -- let me give some lists. Here`s somebody alongside you -- there was a Twitter that just said alongside of you where somebody said that

they`ve done crazy stuff on Ambien. Anderson Cooper, I talk to him all the time about his use of Ambien.

And let me -- let me...

ODUOLOWU: Use of Ambien?

PINSKY: Use of Ambien. He knows. He knows, Anderson. I know. We`ve talked about it many times.

But let me show you some that -- that are out there.

Melissa says, "I walked right out the door."

Gail says, "I`ve done the laundry in the middle of the night with no memory of doing it."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s not good.

PINSKY: Robin says, "I`ve been known to drive in my sleep on Ambien."

Jennifer, do you want to comment about this?

KEITT: Well, you know, I`m wondering, though, Dr. Drew, OK, if you`re saying to yourself over and over again, I`m going to kill him, I`m going to

kill him, I`m going to kill him and you`re saying that for over a year, OK, maybe then you take a sleeping pill, could you act out what you`ve been

saying over and over and over again?

PINSKY: Yes. There is...

KEITT: I mean maybe...

PINSKY: A point here, yes.

Yes.

And, oh, by the way, maybe she had other psychiatric stuff that was making her so aggressive, like a bipolar disorder. People who are in these manic

states will have -- I`ve seen people punch their spouse in their sleep when they`re manic. I`ve seen people do that with medication side effects.

I`ve not seen anybody really do anything that kind of harmful, Segun.

ODUOLOWU: Well, unless this woman is Wolverine and when she sleeps like claws come out and then she can...

PINSKY: Yes, that`s the point.

ODUOLOWU: -- like she had to get up, get a knife...

PINSKY: Yes.

ODUOLOWU: -- and come -- come on.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes. That`s the point...

ODUOLOWU: She`s not Wolverine.

PINSKY: Right. That`s the part...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: -- that puts it over the top. But out of the ordinary, if you notice all those -- all those Ambien stories even, where people -- they`re

benign stories. They aren`t acting out extreme UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- aggression.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they`re doing the laundry. That sounds amazing.

SCHACHER: They`re doing lndy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can I have some Ambien...

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: -- so I can do the laundry and clean my house in my sleep?

It`s a great...

(CROSSTALK)

ODUOLOWU: The next commercial break, Sam, I`ve got you, dear.

SCHACHER: OK. Good.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: -- sex and people they don`t want to have sex with.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

PINSKY: In Anahita`s case, evidently, because she...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh.

PINSKY: Didn`t you say that was an excuse, Anahita?

SEDAGHATFAR: I didn`t say that was my excuse.

PINSKY: Not your excuse. OK, I -- I understand.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But, yes.

ODUOLOWU: It sounds like the excuse of someone you`ve heard of.

SEDAGHATFAR: Someone I know, right?

ODUOLOWU: That`s also a lawyer.

PINSKY: I -- I think what we should do is reconvene parts, you know, some of this panel for the after show and continue to talk about this.

Speaking of the after show, I want to show you a bit of it after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHACHER: He says he still felt threatened. And that`s why he was like OK, I`m still feeling threatened. It`s easier said than done...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: I think that`s...

SCHACHER: -- to sit in our chairs and say that.

PINSKY: Right. It`s easy to say it was -- maybe it was out of the fear and being overwhelmed in the moment. He was just like fearful they were

going to run out and get a shotgun or something. You don`t know what`s going through somebody`s head, do you know what I mean?

SCHACHER: Yes.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PINSKY: That is our after show. That was from last night`s after show. We post one every night after the show. You can go to HLNtv.com/drdrew to

see more of that and all of our after shows.

And tonight, Sam, I think we`ll be talking about this filet-o-fish story.

SCHACHER: The Am -- and Ambien stories.

PINSKY: If that seems to be getting...

SCHACHER: I want to hear some more Ambien stories.

PINSKY: Well, you know what I`ve got?

I`m getting a bunch of Tweets about the -- I think I`ve got some. But the one I just have up is this one up about the woman who had her kids taken

away for putting the -- yes, here it is. It`s from Anton --- Antonette. She says, "What have we become? We are horrified when parents kill their

kids and now we condemn this mother (AUDIO GAP) reacting, Sam, to that story, still.

And -- and I am sympathetic to what Segun was saying, that too -- too many, you know, screwed up people -- I mean screwed up kids is the -- is the

cornerstone of what`s gone wrong in this country. It`s where so many of our financial resources are going. It`s where so many of our human

resources are going. It`s where all the suffering is coming.

But still, once we`re there...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

PINSKY: -- we`ve got to help these people.

SCHACHER: And here`s the thing, Dr. Drew. She`s been working full-time since she was 14 years old.

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: And she tried really hard to better herself. I don`t think that she ever foresaw this happening. And she`s denied welfare. She`s a very

prideful woman. And I think if people dig deeper and they start to research her and her history, I think they`ll really have sympathy for this

situation.

PINSKY: All right, here`s another one.

If she asked for help before, why would social services decide to step in now?

In other words, why did they come in all of a sudden and take her kids away when she had been asking for help before?

What -- you know, how far did she -- what length did she have to go to get their attention (INAUDIBLE)?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was the Craigslist ad.

PINSKY: It`s the Craigslist ad...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

PINSKY: -- which we thought was a little excessive, I`ve got to say. The judgment in doing so was a little bit problematic.

But there was another one here I wanted to show you. I had an Ambien one here, too.

Where did it go?

Oh...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, did you?

PINSKY: Oh, yes it is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More cleaning ones?

PINSKY: I can`t find it now. I can`t...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, darn.

PINSKY: All right, listen, come to the after show. We`ll talk more about these and get more of those Tweets going.

And, also, you can DVR us anytime then you can watch us any time. So please do so.

And, of course, "FORENSIC FILES" is up next.

END