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@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

New Concerns About the Spread of Ebola; Failed Attempts to Reach MH17 as Ukraine Fighting Continues; Weapons Used in Ukraine/Russian Conflict; Poll: Majority of Israelis Don't Want Cease- Fire; Russia Unhappy with Sanctions; Interview with Amb. Christopher Hill

Aired July 30, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to take a short break here. Another concerning issue happening in Africa. New concerns about the spread of the deadly Ebola virus. And the first American has died from the outbreak. We're going to look at how close it is to our shore. We're going to ask Dr. Sanjay Gupta to weigh in.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Patrick Sawyer was one stop away from heading home to Minnesota and celebrating his daughter's birthday but he never made it. He collapsed after getting off a plane in Nigeria. He died five days later, the first American killed by the Ebola virus in what authorities are now calling the worst outbreak ever.

PEREIRA: His flight originated in Liberia. He reportedly started showing symptoms on the plane.

Earlier today, on "New Day," I had the opportunity to speak to his wife, Decontee Sawyer. She said he may have unknowingly caught the disease taking care of his sister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DECONTEE SAWYER, WIFE OF PATRICK SAWYER: He was visiting his sister. She was ill and he helped care for her, and so he contracted it that way. They didn't know it was Ebola because Ebola displays other symptoms, like malaria symptoms, so they thought she may have malaria. But had he known, he would have definitely taken better precautions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The United Kingdom has called the Ebola virus a very serious threat to that country. High level British official convene earlier today to discuss the threat. And health officials are being warned to be prepared.

PEREIRA: The World Health Organization says at least 672 people have died already from Ebola. The disease is spread across three African countries, Guinea, Sierra Leone and Liberia. 1200 cases have been confirmed just since March.

Our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, joins us. Good to have you with us @THISHOUR, Doctor.

Let's talk about this. Because I know the concern about Patrick Sawyer is that it's a different scenario than Dr. Kenneth Brantley, one of the aide workers that was working on the ground in South Africa. He sensed that he wasn't well. He isolated himself. Patrick Sawyer, I don't think, had a sense that he was ill at all. He got on a plane. That's the concern there because he could have exposed other passengers.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I think that -- you are absolutely right. And you know, whether he was completely healthy even when he got on that first flight -- he took three separate flights to get to Nigeria -- whether he was completely healthy or not or was starting to feel sick, we don't know at this point. Whether a screening test, taking his temperature would have caught him and prevented him from getting on the flight, we don't know. But you are absolutely right. Now it becomes a question of trying to track those other passengers, which is no small task. Finding them, alerting them and what they would do is simply monitor their temperature for 21 days. If you don't develop a fever within 21 days, you are likely in the clear. But you are absolutely right. It just highlights how challenging it is where people are moving around internationally.

BERMAN: In the headline here, it's tragic and it's also alarming, Sanjay. As you say, it's a plane filled with people, but you have been pointing out there's a difference between infectious and contagious.

GUPTA: Yeah. I think this is a really important point. I think when people think of viral diseases, you think of something like the flu, something getting into the air and possibly infecting lots of people around you. Ebola doesn't behave that way. It's not airborne. It is something that is spread through bodily fluids and it's when the person is very sick themselves. So they are typically in bed. They are not up walking around and shaking people's hands. So it's not contagious in that sense. The flip side is that it's highly infectious, and what that means is a very small amount of virus in that body fluid can actually cause someone to get infected. It doesn't take much.

PEREIRA: Sanjay, people panic when they talk about airplanes, how this could spread throughout the world. We see U.K. officials already taking steps to plan ahead. If it comes to the United States, are we better prepared to deal with this? Will it affect us? And is there a concern of an outbreak here?

GUPTA: I think there's no question that we're better prepared in the United States. Typically, a lot of where Ebola originates is in much smaller remote villages where they don't have any resources at all, and they gradually bring in more and more resources from the World Health Organization to combat that. In the United States, you would have much more better resources. You would be able to isolate someone, provide supportive fluid, in terms of providing fluids to the person. They would have a better chance of surviving. And, B, it not turning into an outbreak.

Here's the point. It is likely that someone will arrive in the United States that has Ebola. I mean, that's the world in which we live, but I think it's unlikely that will become an outbreak, that other people will get sick as a result. So bad news but potentially something that's containable as well.

BERMAN: I think that first part of that will scare a lot of people, Sanjay, the second part that should reassure them is it's not something that will get out of control.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

GUPTA: Thanks. You got it.

PEREIRA: Ahead @THISHOUR, four straight days of failed attempts to inspect the flight 17 crash site forces investigators to search for a way around, pro-Russian separatists on the ground fighting.

BERMAN: Plus, as the conflict between Ukraine and Russia intensifies, we take a look at the weapons, the serious weaponry now being used by both sides.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Getting to the crash site of flight 17 right now might be more of a quest than a mission. Investigators denied access for a fourth straight day because of heavy fighting in the region. And now reports from Ukrainian officials of a new danger. They claim that rebels have bobby trapped the crash area with land mines.

PEREIRA: It's almost too much to bear, when you think about these families looking for closure.

I want to talk about this with our military analyst, retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona.

It's crazy to think about this first of all. Let's talk about the capability, what kind of weaponry could potentially be in the hands of the separatists that, you know, you have to know who you are fighting against and what they are fighting you with.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: The separatists basically have low-end equipment. They got some stuff from the Russians but it's mostly the same stuff the Ukrainians have, armored personnel carriers, a few old tanks here and there, but nothing that where they can really project power. Ukrainians have that but not the separatists.

BERMAN: Talk about the Ukrainians. Yesterday, you know, we broke the report that the Ukrainians are using these short-range ballistic missiles against the rebels. This is in Ukrainian territory --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: -- although it's disputed Ukrainian territory. Tell me about these missiles. How accurate are they? How usual or unusual is it to see in these close quarters civil wars-type of conflicts?

FRANCONA: This is the SS-21. NATO calls it short range, goes about 50 miles, carries a thousand-pound warhead. It's a lot of damage in a concentrated area. The kill zone is about 1,000 feet apart. They're used -- it's supposed to be used against troop for medications. What we are seeing them in Syria in Syrian cities. We have used them in a civil-war setting before. It's a good weapon. It's accurate. And the Ukrainians feel this is a good weapon to stop the separatists. So if you can get these guys out in the open, you can kill a lot with one of these warheads.

PEREIRA: But that's the questions, can you get them out in the open?

So let's talk about the booby traps as we came to you. Look, they are dealing with rebels. They are dealing with different factions. You talk about that a whole lot. Ukrainian forces are up against a bifurcated group of people with varying degrees of organization and manpower, et cetera. Bobby traps, that's dirty pool.

(CROSSTALK)

FRANCONA: They are using land mines. Land mines are very scary. All you have to do is put a sign up that says "land mines" and you've denied that area. It's an area denial weapon.

PEREIRA: It's saying we don't want you in this crash site.

FRANCONA: Yeah, because nobody is going to walk into a mine field knowingly. You'll have to bring in engineers to clear it. It takes a lot of time. Very effective. And, because they are both trying to control this area, whoever controls it first puts this down, lays a mine field, puts up a sign, and you own that territory for a long period of time.

PEREIRA: It speaks to me that this investigation is so incredibly hampered.

FRANCONA: Yeah, well --

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: Not even talking about the fighting and what have you. I'm talking about the investigation of what happened to this airplane.

FRANCONA: I think we know what happened to the airplane but getting the evidence to prove it is another thing. And it appears that the rebels do not want anybody in there to get their hands on that physical evidence because it's going to point to them.

BERMAN: Can I ask one quick question about the BUK missile system that everyone thinks shot down MH17? You've seen what it can do. What if something like this falls into the wrong hands? Clearly, it wasn't in the right hands here. What if it falls into the type of terrorists we're used to dealing with around the world, their hands? Getting your shoes screened at the airport, that can't protect you from a BUK missile. FRANCONA: A BUK missile is on a 50-ton chassis, so it's not something

easily moved. It's easily detectable. When you turn it on, the radars are detectable. So a state-run intelligence service, like us or the Russians, will be able to detect it once it's on. You can't hide this thing. But if you get your hands on one and put it somewhere, you can easily knock down a lot of airplanes very quickly, very high, very effective, as we've seen in the case of this unfortunately Malaysian airliner.

PEREIRA: We've been talking on our air this hour about the peace- fire, that temporary cease-fire that was blown in the Middle East. Have you heard any hopes for a cease-fire here, because that's about the anything that's going to allow investigators to get in and get what they need?

FRANCONA: Both sides have decided they need to fight this out. The Gazans know -- I mean, Hamas knows that once they stop fighting it's going to be very difficult to rearm because they usually get rearmed through the Egyptians, smuggled in through the Egyptian side. The Egyptians are no longer their friends. And on the Israeli side, they need to get those tunnels, they need to deplete that rocket inventory. They are not going to stop.

BERMAN: Colonel Rick Francona, always great to have you here with us. Appreciate it.

Ahead for us @THISHOUR, a new poll shows that many Israelis, in fact that vast majority of Israeli Jews don't want a cease-fire with Hamas as at all. Given that, is there any way to find a diplomatic solution?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Israel's four-hour cease-fire in Gaza is set to expire under 10 minutes from now. Already, though, we've heard explosions across Gaza City.

BERMAN: Most of Israel's Jewish population does not want a cease-fire with Hamas, not yet at least. This is according to a new poll. It shows about 87 percent of Jewish Israelis say it is not time to accept a cease-fire because Hamas continues firing missiles on Israel and not all the Hamas tunnels have been found yet.

Our Sara Sidner is near the Israel/Gaza border with more on this.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, Michaela, we know from the Israeli Jews we've been talking to there's a great deal of support to keep going, for Israel to keep pounding Gaza until Hamas is put down.

I do want to give you an idea what's happened just after the cease- fire here on the Israeli/Gaza border. That, over my right shoulder, is Gaza. We've been seeing a few plumes of smoke. The sirens went off about 15 minutes after the cease-fire was called. A mortar came over the border. This is what people have to do when they hear the sounds of the sirens, they have to get behind something that can try and protect them. This blast wall here has been put in place for drivers, for example, who are trying to find a safe place to go. There is also this, what would be a bus stop, but it is also made so it can be a shelter in case of fire coming over from Gaza. Back over to the Gaza border here, you know, it's so very close, you really don't have much time to get out of the way of danger.

We can also tell you that during the cease-fire we've been hearing artillery shot from Israel into Gaza. This cease-fire's supposed to last four hours. We will have to wait and see if the cease-fire actually holds -- Michaela and John?

BERMAN: Thank you, Sara Sidner, right now on the border between Gaza and Israel.

Ahead for us @THISHOUR, Western powers tighten the economic sanctions on Russia. Could this help tone down some of the fighting in Ukraine?

PEREIRA: And another crisis. What can be done to stop the fighting in Gaza when both sides keep breaking cease-fires?

We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: @THISHOUR, President Obama accused of starting a new Cold War. A Russian lawmaker saying it will be the president's contribution to history.

PEREIRA: Clearly, the Kremlin is not happy with the new round of sanctions from the U.S. and its European allies targeting Russian oil companies, banks, weapons makers, some of the pals, if you will, of Russia's president.

Christopher Hill has served as U.S. ambassador to Iraq, South Korea and Poland. He's author of new book called "Outpost: Life on the Front Lines of American diplomacy."

Diplomacy is something we can use here.

Good to have you with us, sir. Thank you so much.

I'm curious what your thinking of the sanctions and what kind of affects you think they're going to have substantive effect they're going to have on Russia. The concern about the ripple effects it could have on Europe.

CHRISTOPHER HILL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ, SOUTH KOREA AND POLAND & AUTHOR: First of all, I think the Obama administration has done well to stay close to the Europeans. Obviously, the Obama administration wanted to do more and do it faster than the Europeans, and that hasn't been possible until recently. And I think the shoot- down of this Malaysian airliner has been a bit of a game changer. So the U.S. is still out ahead of the Europeans but the Europeans have also moved with a sanctions package of their own.

So I think overall this does have a chance of having people around Putin say, Vladimir, I think you've made your point, and I think maybe we ought to pull back a little from what we're up to in Ukraine.

BERMAN: So you serve in a lot of posts all around the world. You sort of have different vantage points of Vladimir Putin from different posts. How do you think he will respond to this pressure? Is he the kind of guy who will crack when his friends, as you say, his friends say, hey, Vladimir, it's time to give up? He may not seem like that kind of guy to a lot of people.

HILL: Well, he needs those friends, so I think he's more likely to give in to them than to directly to us. So I think the key question is whether we're reaching the people around him. And I think sanctioning some five out of six Russian banks will take its toll.

But overall, sanctions have a very mixed track record because you have people like Putin who tend to be unwilling to come to the table when they're threatened with sanctions. But I think these people, crony, if you will, are probably going to get a little nervous about this and maybe getting that message to Putin.

PEREIRA: To switch topics, Israel, Gaza, we saw a cease-fire, humanitarian cease-fire essentially broken, not official, but in action. What can be done, sir, in your estimation, to keep from these sides breaking cease-fires?

HILL: Yeah, cease-fires that are not connected to a forward peace process have a track record of being broken very quickly. Now, clearly, they need an ongoing peace process. They're unable to get it. Meanwhile, a lot of people being killed every day. So I understand the focus on a cease-fire. But in the absence of a follow- on process, it's going to be tough.

I think what Secretary Kerry's been trying to do is have some humanitarian, you know, just a few hours, and that kind of cease-fire might give momentum to a further process. But right now, it's very tough.

And one gets the sense this was not at all teed up for the secretary of state when he went to the region. That is, he went to the region to try to tee up his own peace deal and that's a tall order for anybody. And you have to admire someone who goes into the middle of this without any real sense of how it can really come out.

BERMAN: It's a tall order, especially when both sides seem to prefer the fight right now than any chance at peace.

Ambassador Christopher Hill, great to have your expertise. Thank you.

PEREIRA: Thanks so much.

That's it for us @THISHOUR. Thanks for joining us. I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN: And I'm John Berman.

"LEGAL VIEW" starts right now.