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@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Bodies Still at MH17 Crash Site; International Rage Grows Against Israel; Israelis Response to Accusations They're Committing War Crimes; House to Vote on Immigration Bill.

Aired July 31, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm sure some relatives hoped the number would be smaller than larger. But you get the feeling the Australian foreign minister is making that suggestion because the slow work of the forensic scientists in the Netherlands has gone under way and they're beginning to get more concrete data -- John?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It's been two weeks, Nick. That is just appalling, if true, that these bodies have been there for two weeks. And this goes to the situation on the ground there, both sides fighting, making it impossible for investigators to get there.

You did make it to this site. What was it like? What stood out to you?

PATON WALSH: The silence. There's a war going on all around, and you drive past and see huge plumes of smoke from shelling and intent violence from many towns around, but the actual wreckage is sort of cocooned. There's the smell. It suggests there's plenty of human remains still there, personal belongings. Still very upsetting to see what something chose to read on an airplane or the souvenir they bought or the choice of shoes they had for that particular flight thrown across the fields and still there exposed to the elements. Passersby able to look through it. And distressing too to see empty wallets and the back of a cell phone that had been opened by somebody and discarded. So, yeah, it's a shocking scene. No easier two weeks later, I'm sure. There's so many less bodies there than when people first arrived there.

Each day that goes past, John, is another 24 hours of trauma and unresolved questions, lack of closure for the families of the 288 who died onboard. So the back and forth on the front lines here means nothing to them. They just need the inspectors there and that process to begin as quickly as possible -- John?

BERMAN: Quickly, Nick, do the investigators believe they now have the time they need to get their job done?

PATON WALSH: I'll be honest. I think it's a one-off. They had a very small mission. Managed to get there. Only four Dutch and Australian experts. They're authorized by the Ukrainians to have 700 personnel backing them up. It's going to be a huge convoy there for weeks in a very volatile environment. I would be surprised if tomorrow was an entirely successful story -- John? BERMAN: I think we all hope you're wrong, but you rarely are.

Nick Paton Walsh, live in Donetsk, thank you so much.

Ahead, @THISHOUR, as the rocket fire from Gaza continues to be answered with Israeli air strikes, international outrage grows against Israel. Is it justified? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: @THISHOUR, Israel calling up more reservists to bolster fighting in Hamas. Israel's military says 16,000 additional reservists are now being called. That will bring troops to 86,000. The Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says his country will complete its goal of destroying the Hamas tunnels with or without a cease-fire. This comes amid a rising death toll in Gaza. Authorities say 1,373 people have been killed and the U.N. says the vast majority of them are civilians. 56 Israeli soldiers have been killed along with three Israeli civilians.

The United States calls on Israel to do more to protect civilians. At the same time, the U.S. has agreed to Israel's request to resupply it with several types of ammunition.

James Zogby is the president of the Arab-American Institute.

James, what I want to ask you is, the United Nations, just about an hour ago, there was a big statement from the relief effort workers there saying that the people of Gaza are suffering and that the United Nations is simply overwhelmed inside Gaza. So why isn't Egypt doing more? Why doesn't Egypt open its border? Why aren't we hearing more from Saudi Arabia in this conflict, or Jordan in this conflict? Are they as scared of Hamas as others are?

JAMES ZOGBY, PRESIDENT, ARAB-AMERICAN INSTITUTE: Number one, Saudi Arabia has limited leverage in this situation, and most of the Arab countries as well. They can condemn Israel, but they've done it before. They're certainly not fans of Hamas, but I don't think that accounts for it. The issue here is this is a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, number one. Number two, Israel has the United States covering for it in every instance, providing it with the weapons and with the international political support that it needs to continue this operation. No Arab state or combination of Arab states can end that. It's got be the United States, either pulling the plug or giving them the go ahead. And right now, we've had the go ahead for the most part.

Egypt could open the boarder to the south, but that also doesn't solve the problem. Number one, that's not Egypt's alone to control and, number two, the solution is not to empty Gaza of people, but it's actually to open Gaza so that Gaza has an opportunity to live, so that the Palestinian people there can grow an economy, can have a future they don't right now. And Israel has wanted to unload Gaza onto Egypt, but the Palestinian people of Gaza are a part of the Palestinian nation and they want, as Oslo promised them, a contiguous state with the West Bank and Jerusalem connected. BERMAN: But it is true that Israel, the Saudi Arabia nation, they

have concerns about Hamas?

ZOGBY: They have concerns about Hamas. But they also have deep concerns about the Palestinian people. And they are providing assistance. The problem is assistance can't get through. Israel controls the access and egress of heavy equipment and material into Gaza. Even Egypt does not, because that Sinai is not one where -- the Sinai border is not one that Egypt controls completely. Therefore, the issue is open Gaza.

The best way to defeat Hamas is to create hope for the Palestinian people. A group like Hamas preys off despair and Israel does its best to create despair, to create anger, to create the very conditions that breed this kind of extremism.

You know, this issue of a marketplace bombed or a school bombed or another shelter bombed, these are all horrific crimes, but a crime that we just sort of seem to pass over is the bombing of the power stations. This is not the first time that Israel has ended all electricity into Gaza, meaning not only are people without power, without air conditioning on hot days, but they're also without water, because water in Gaza comes through electric pumps. And so this is actually a crime against an entire people.

BERMAN: Mr. Zogby, I want to ask you one question. Wolf Blitzer had a fascinating interview with former Israeli president, Shimon Peres, a man who has been awarded for his peace efforts. I don't think he's considered a hawk. He worked towards peace over the last 20 years. He says Israel must maintain its offensive until all the tunnels are destroyed. Your response?

ZOGBY: This is not the first time and last time that Shimon Peres will be morally wrong and fundamentally wrong. I remember there was a massive bombing of south Lebanon. 400,000 fleeing north. And Shimon Peres releasing a statement, we're bombing them to force them north to send a message.

(CROSSTALK)

ZOGBY: And he's been out of the mainstream of Israeli thinking on this.

BERMAN: About the tunnels though --

ZOGBY: Sure.

BERMAN: -- what would you have Israel do about the tunnels? Do you think Israel should be willing to accept their existence or do they have a right to destroy them?

ZOGBY: No, they shouldn't accept their existence, but nor should they totally close off the Gaza Strip so that people are so in despair that they move in the direction of extremism. The question is the tunnels are wrong and the rockets are wrong, but so, too, is the disproportionate assault from Israel and the fact that Gaza has been strangled now for many decades, not just the last few years. Youth unemployment is between 70 percent and 80 percent. These young men who join Hamas do so because they have no job, no prospect of a job, no hope of a future. So the issue is, what can we do to transform conditions of daily life to give hope to people. How do we transform the ghettos in America? How do we transform the lives of the poor who end up in situations that they shouldn't be in, but end up there because there's no alternative? That's the situation for Gaza today. More killings is not going to solve it.

BERMAN: The United Nations did make the point today that a cease- fire, in and of itself, will not solve all the problems.

James Zogby, great to have you with. Thank you so much.

ZOGBY: Thank you. Thank you.

BERMAN: Ahead for u @THISHOUR, we just had the Palestinian point of view. Next up, we'll hear from the Israelis on the violence in Gaza and their response to accusations that they're now committing war crimes.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Hamas continues to fire dozens of rockets into Israel. Israel vows to respond and keep up its defensive until all the Hamas tunnels are destroyed. 16,000 Israeli reservists being called up to join the fight. What will stop this conflict that has now taken the lives of more than 1,300 people in Gaza, most of them civilians, and about 59 Israelis?

Joining me now to discuss this, the consul-general of Israeli, Ido Aharoni.

Consul, thanks so much for being here.

IDO AHARONI, CONSUL-GENERAL OF ISRAEL: Thank you.

BERMAN: We've heard for the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu this morning, who says this is just the first phase of the "demilitarization" of Gaza. What does that mean?

AHARONI: It means that we need to get the job done. We need to complete the mission. Hamas was able to build two systems. Each is a strategic caliber. The first is the rocket system, the missile system. No less than 12,000 rockets and missiles that were amassed, some of them with a 100-mile range that puts two-thirds of Israel's population in the bomb shelters. Imagine 200 million Americans spending a month in the bomb shelters. That's the first threat.

The second threat, which is being dealt with right now, is, of course, the massive network of tunnels. These are not just tunnels for economic purposes, smuggling purposes. These are offensive penetration tunnels that go underground with the sole purpose of sending squads of terrorists through the tunnels to pop out and attack innocent civilians or even soldiers. So we need to tackle this terrorist infrastructure.

BERMAN: If this is just the first phase, though, some 1,300 have died right now -- the United Nations say the majority of civilians -- if this is just the first phase, will more be killed in the second phase and third phase? Is the death toll going to keep on rising?

AHARONI: This is a war between Israel and Hamas. This war was imposed on us. It's not just that one particular operation. You have to look at this as part of an ongoing battle between two different civilizations, if you may. This is yet another bloody chapter of a century-old Arab onslaught on Jewish national sovereignty. You know, we had a prime minister who served from 1969 to 12974, who was raised here in this country. Her name was Golda Meir. It was the first and only Israeli female prime minister. And she famously said we can forgive them for killing our children. We will never forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. And you have to understand that you're looking at an ideological organization here that is interested, is interested in maximizing the death toll on its side. Now, we do whatever we can to minimize it.

BERMAN: At this point, the United Nations, just a few hours ago, a couple hours ago, said the humanitarian issue is overwhelming. They are overwhelmed. They have called on Israel to not just be more careful about hitting U.N. facilities there, the schools, the marketplaces, but they say at a certain point -- and they say they're there right now -- the Israeli occupying forces -- those are their words, not mine -- they need to step up and care for the people inside Gaza.

AHARONI: Two answers to this. The first is they should know that Hamas is the one not allowed injured Palestinians to be treated in the Israeli hospitals. Secondly, as we speak -- and this is unprecedented in modern military history. As we're speaking right now, hundreds of trucks loaded with medication, with food, with goods for the Palestinians, humanitarian aid, are going into Gaza. We have -- we have recorded over 2,000 shipments that went into Gaza since the beginning of the operation. This is unprecedented. You will not find any case in recent history of a country aiding its enemy in time of war. This is what's happening.

BERMAN: The bombs are still going into Gaza, as well as the aid.

I do appreciate you coming and having this discussion with us, Consul- General.

AHARONI: Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Some other news to tell you about. In an hour of so, the House of Representatives scheduled to vote on a $659 million immigration bill. It would send National Guard troops and other resources to the border, and allowed the speedy deportation of all undocumented children coming into the country without a hearing.

I want to bring in our chief congressional correspondent, Dana Bash.

Dana, it's actually a busy couple days up on Capitol Hill. Over the next several hours, immigration front and center. Any progress likely to be made? Anything that will stick here?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: When it comes to actually getting a piece of legislation off of Capitol Hill to the president's desk that will address this border crisis, the answer is no. It is highly, highly unlikely. I would even go close to say pretty much a done deal that that is not going to happen because there are such differences between the two parties and between the two chambers.

But in the next hour, the big question is going to be whether or not house Republicans can even pass a bill that they want to get through the House in order to say that they pass something before leaving for the five-week recess in august. And they're struggling because you mentioned the price tag is a little more than $600 million. That's a fraction of what the president wanted, almost $4 billion, but it's still too much to swallow for some conservatives who, as you well know, don't like to vote for any money that is not offset elsewhere in the budget. They've been to'ing and fro'ing with conservatives pushed by Ted Cruz in the Senate, which is to make clear that no other children who are here illegally in the future can be allowed to stay longer, which is something that the White House -- we anticipate the president will do by executive order. These are all machinations that the House Republicans are going through in order to get at least sort of what they call a message bill passed on the House floor, than to leave, be able to go home and say, look, at least we tried. But we should not mistake that for what is real, and what is real is we do not expect Congress to leave without passing any money. And this is important because the administration is saying they're going to run out of money to deal with this horrific crisis at the border -- John?

BERMAN: No vote is certain in this House of Representatives, so be sure, so stay with CNN, stay with Dana over the next several hours because this will have a lot of twists and turn.

Dana Bash, on Capitol Hill for us, thanks so much.

Ahead for us @THISHOUR, a real-life cyborg. And no, that's not something he's wearing. That's actually an antenna coming out of his head. So what's going on here? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Time now for "Innovation Nation." What is a cyborg, you ask. Well, a hybrid of human tissue and technology. You've probably seen it in movies, but now you can take a cab to Brooklyn and talk to one.

"CNN Money's" Laurie Segall shows us how cyborgs apparently are making the big jump from science fiction to science fact. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAURIE SEGALL, "CNN MONEY" TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Neil is a musician, an artist, and a cyborg. That's an antenna surgically implanted in his skull.

(on camera): That's actually attached to you, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, that's an antenna, a human antenna implant.

SEGALL (voice-over): He identifies as a cyborg.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's feeling that you're not using technology and that you're not wearing technology. It's feeling that you are technology.

SEGALL: But definition, a cyborg is a person whose human skills are enhanced by technology. As devices increasingly take over our lives, some people are actually putting technology into their bodies.

Neil, who's color-blind, says his antenna allows him to hear color.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So this is very blue, blue.

SEGALL: It converts the frequencies from different colors into the frequencies for different sounds.

(on camera): Why in the first place did you decide to attach this to yourself?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't want to wear technology. I wanted this to be an integral part of me, so that's how I kept developing it until I found a doctor that actually drilled my head and made it implanted.

SEGALL: How did you find a doctor who agreed to put that in your head?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was very complex because there's bioethical committees that don't really agree with the unit between humans and technology. In the end, I did find one. And he did it anonymously. So he did the implant.

SEGALL (voice-over): His partner, Moon, is also a self-described cyborg. She wears an antenna that she says vibrates every time there's an earthquake.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm a choreographer, and I want to perceive movement in any way I can. If I was alone in the planet, what movement would I be able to feel? Then I realize it was earthquakes.

SEGALL: And one particular cyborg sees business opportunity in embeddable technology. Amal Graafstra sells chips people can implant inside their bodies.

AMAL GRAAFSTRA, FOUNDER, DANGEROUS THINGS: I think we've sold probably around 2,000 to 3,000 implants across all the different types.

SEGALL: Amal has one on each hand and uses it to scan into his home, car and personal safe.

GRAAFSTRA: Essentially, what I've done is taken an RFID access card and moved it from an ANS pocket to a SIM pocket.

SEGALL: It sounds futuristic, but Neil envisions a world where implantable tech and surgical add-ons could give people superhuman abilities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll meet someone and we'll see that maybe they have a new body part. And then the question is, what sense you have. That will be a question that we'll ask people.

SEGALL: Laurie Segall, "CNN Money," New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Wow. "Innovation Nation," to say the least.

All right. Tonight, on CNN's Emmy-nominated series "The Sixties," a nation at war abroad and at home. 1968, what a year. A turning point in the decade that changed the world: The assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr, Robert Kennedy, war demonstrations, riots, cities ablaze, the Tet Offensive, Richard Nixon's resignation. Watch it tonight, 9:00 eastern and pacific, right here on CNN. Watch it live and set your DVR.

Thanks so much for joining us @THISHOUR.

"LEGAL VIEW" with Jim Sciutto today starts now.