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CNN NEWSROOM

Protests Continues in Ferguson

Aired August 18, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You are watching CNN.

We have breaking news for you at the top of this hour. Thanks for being with me. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

In Ferguson, Missouri, the National Guard is moving in. We have these new details this hour coming out, explaining the officer's side of the story. This is the officer here. This is 28-year-old Darren Wilson.

And a reported friend of his called into a radio station, explaining the officer's version of events, why the officer shot and killed 18- year-old Michael Brown nine days ago.

Here's what we're learning. The officer's friend said that Michael Brown, who was more than 6 feet tall, reportedly weighed near 300 pounds, rushed toward the officer. And a source with detailed knowledge of this investigation tells CNN that the friend's account is -- quote, unquote -- "accurate" and that is corroborates, it matches with what the officer told investigators.

CNN's Don Lemon joins me in Ferguson. He has been up throughout the night, and now can speak on this latest development, this latest layer of this officer's friend's account. Also here with me in New York, CNN legal analyst Mark O'Mara, who represented George Zimmerman.

But, Don, we have to get to you first.

And for the first time, we have this audio which we will tee up. But, first, give us context. Who was the person who called into the radio station?

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: It is a friend of the officer.

And, Brooke, I want to be very specific here. And I want to follow direct guidance, OK? Because I think it's important to get everything straight here and to give knowledge of who this person is and how this information was obtained.

So I'm going to read verbatim here. It says: "A source with detailed knowledge of the investigation into the Ferguson, Missouri, shooting of Michael Brown says that the account of a caller to Saint Louis radio station KTFK matches the account of officer Darren Wilson as to what happened at the time of the shooting. The caller to the radio station identified only as Josie told

listeners she knew Officer Wilson's side of the story and in detail she laid out Wilson's account. Here it is, in its entirety. Listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He rolled his window down and said, come on, guys. Get out of the street.

They refused to and were yelling back, and saying, we're almost where we're going. And there was some cussing involved.

And then he just kept rolling up and he pulled over. And I believe at that point, he called for a backup, but I'm not sure. But I know he pulled up ahead of them and he was watching them. And then he gets the call in that there was a strong-arm robbery.

And they give the description. And he is looking at them, and they've got something in their hands that looks like it could be what -- the cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back at them, tries to get out of his car. They slam his door shut violently.

I think he said Michael did. And then he opened his door again and tried to get out. And as he stands up, Michael just bum-rushes him, just shoves him back into his car, punches him in the face, and then, of course, Darren grabs for his gun, and Michael grabs for the gun.

At one point, he's got the gun totally turned against his hip and Darren shoves it away, and the gun goes off.

Well, then Michael takes off with his friend. They get to be about 35 feet away and Darren -- of, course protocol is to pursue. So he stands up and yells, "Freeze!" Michael and his friend turn around, and Michael starts taunting him. "Oh, what are you going to do about it? You're not going to shoot me."

And then he said, all of a sudden, he just started to bum-rush him. He just started coming at him full speed, and so he just started shooting, and he just kept coming. So he really thinks he was on something, because he just kept coming. It was unbelievable. And then -- so he finally ended up -- the final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two, three feet in front of the officer.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

LEMON: As with this person, none of this is to be taken as fact, just like any eyewitness. It is their account. This is her account.

But the source does say, a source with detailed knowledge of this investigation into the shooting tells CNN that the account is accurate. A source with detailed knowledge of the investigation into the shooting told CNN that the account is accurate.

The source declined to be -- to add more details. So, Brooke, there you have it. This is someone who is allegedly friends with the officer, and allegedly this story was conveyed from Darren Wilson to her before all of the uproar over this, before all of the protests.

He conveyed this story to her in the initial hours after that deadly shooting. And now you have heard from his side of the story from someone who alleges to be his friend.

BALDWIN: Right. This is huge, because we hadn't heard this side of the story, really yet. We only learned bits and pieces about the officer himself. But this is significant and the first time.

So, with that said, Don, Mark O'Mara, just let me turn to you. I have a lot of questions for you. But just first hearing this account, many sides of the story, as you well know. As a lawyer, your read on this.

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm concerned, because we keep letting out snippets and snippets of information. It's good the other side came out in one sense. But if I was the prosecutor handling this case, I would put a lockdown on all of the information.

And here's why. When these bits and pieces of information come out, it affects the other witnesses' testimony. Now there may be witnesses going to curtail or rearrange their testimony or even subtly, subconsciously, put this evidence into what they're going to testify to. It's much better that we get all of this evidence out in the raw form, rather than letting it out piecemeal.

(CROSSTALK)

O'MARA: Yes.

BALDWIN: Here's my other question. With all the different -- we have heard from multiple eyewitnesses there on the scene to now this friend of an officer and then the corroboration from a source with detailed information with the investigation saying it was accurate.

How do you as an attorney take all these different versions of one single event and say, OK, you're going to trial, you're going to trial? How do you determine what's credible?

O'MARA: We have to look at all the cases individually, all -- every piece of evidence by itself and in context with all of the other pieces of evidence. So a witness' testimony that says one thing, if it is corroborated by two or three other witnesses, that gives it an extra level of creditable. Much more importantly, it has to be corroborated by the forensics.

BALDWIN: The science.

O'MARA: So, hands up, hands down, hands to the side, distance, all of that information, if it's not corroborated by the science, then it's just witnesses seeing. And we know eyewitnesses are horrible witnesses.

They do not see traumatic events well at all, because the trauma itself makes it difficult for the brain to imprint memories. That's common sense.

BALDWIN: Interesting. I hadn't thought about that.

O'MARA: It's true. Every social scientist that looks at eyewitness testimony will tell you the same thing. We're not good.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I have one more for you just from your George Zimmerman experience, wondering what this officer is going through.

But, Don Lemon, I know you're still standing by for me in Ferguson. And since this latest drib and drab little nugget has come out from the officer's side of the story, how are people in Ferguson reacting to this?

LEMON: Well, they're saying, again, the similar scenario as when, you know, the account of the videotape, the alleged videotape of Michael Brown in -- or I should not say the alleged videotape. The videotape that is allegedly of Michael Brown in the convenience store, with the confrontation with the store owner.

They're believing, again, that this information is being concocted between the officer and the police department in order to get some sort of narrative out about the officer and to discredit Michael Brown's side of the story. But, again, as we have been saying, this is the first time we have heard his side of the story from someone other than the police department and a police record.

Again, this is allegedly a friend of his. And I'm so glad that Mark O'Mara brought that up about eyewitnesses.

BALDWIN: Right.

LEMON: People put so much credibility into eyewitness accounts, when it turns out that eyewitnesses can have the worst accounts. And they may not be creditable all the time, because I don't know what the reasoning is, but from every single study that we have talked about, and every single story we have done, eyewitness accounts turn out many times to be the least credible information that we have. And I'm not sure why that is.

BALDWIN: Because it's traumatic, according to Mark.

But let me just follow up with you. You sort of famously defended George Zimmerman in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. And George Zimmerman maybe still to this day, to a degree, but for a while there, was one of the most hated men in America. And here you have this police officer in Ferguson who shot and killed this unarmed 18-year-old. What do you think he's doing right now?

O'MARA: Well, first of all, this is another case where it's not easy. We now know from the little bits of information we have that it's a questionable call of what happened, who did what wrong when in the intersection.

But you know he's got to be in fear for his life, because what's happening is, all of the anger of the underlying racial undertones of this case that have nothing to do with Mike Brown, nothing to do with the officer are now coming to the surface.

BALDWIN: Right.

O'MARA: That's being focused against him, not just what may have happened wrong to Mike Brown, but what's been happening wrong for 20, 30, 50 years. Now he's the focus. George Zimmerman was the focus of it. So he's got to be in hiding, he's got to be in fear for his life and he's got to be protected.

BALDWIN: Is he reading the papers, watching TV, watching coverage of him?

(CROSSTALK)

O'MARA: If I was advising him, no, because it can't help. It's going to affect his memory and his interpretation of the events, just like it will every other witness.

And I would rather keep him calm, out of sight. He's been through a traumatic event, if nothing else. Certainly, the family has been through a traumatic event of losing a son. The killing of a person is a traumatic events, even though he's a trained law enforcement officer. That's got to be addressed and dealt with.

BALDWIN: Mark O'Mara, your expertise, thank you. We will talk again. Appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Coming up next, we will stay on this breaking story, also what today's autopsy revelations tell us about how Michael Brown died. But they won't tell us everything. And that's key, you know, in the case from Ferguson. If it does end up in court, how will lawyers use those facts to sway jurors? We might have gotten a preview of that case today.

And for some African-Americans, the killing of Michael Brown has added to what one columnist is calling a bitter sense of siege, to Mark's point, this long list of victims, worry that for police who protect and serve doesn't apply to them. It's part of a much bigger picture here, what's happening in Ferguson, Missouri. That is next. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And we have been telling the other side of the story here, the breaking news that we're hearing, the officer's side of the story from this friend who called into this radio show, the details emerging. also from this independent autopsy conducted on 18-year-old Michael Brown, very revealing.

We have learned that the 18-year-old was shot at least six times, two of those bullets to Michael Brown's head. Benjamin Crump, the Brown family attorney, explained this morning why

they didn't want to wait for results from the county or even the federal authorities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF MICHAEL BROWN: The Brown family wanted to have this autopsy performed on their behalf, because they did not know whether the federal officials were going to conduct their own independent autopsy.

And they did not want to be left having to rely on the autopsy done by the Saint Louis law enforcement agencies, the same individuals they feel are responsible for executing their son in broad daylight.

So, therefore, that is why they begged and pleaded to have an independent autopsy done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right, joining me now, CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin and Dr. Cyril Wecht. Welcome to both of you.

And, Dr. Wecht, just right -- right out of the gate here -- I know you watched it this morning. Different accounts, many different stories as far as how the shooting happened nine days ago, whether Michael Brown was walking toward the officer, running away, hands up. In everything you heard this morning, what did you learn?

DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: You have to be careful with regard to your evaluation of the wounds of the arm, because the arm, Brooke, can be held in many different positions, up, down, across the chest, out, in extended fashion.

And when you're running and the arms are flailing, that which when the body is examined on the autopsy table and the so-called anatomic position, face up, and palms up, which may appear to be front to back may in reality have been back to front. You have got to be very careful in determining things about the arm wounds.

Insofar as the head wounds are concerned, what I have heard is a shot to the top of the head. And I haven't heard about the directionality of that wound, other than it went into the brain and obviously then would have been the fatal wound.

The other wound of the face, I understand, as I read and heard, entered around the eye, moved downward, exited from around the jawbone and reentered above the right clavicle, the collarbone. So that means that with the body in the anatomic position, again, you're talking vertical, perpendicular to the ground.

On the other hand, if someone is bent over, and running, collapsing, then the shot actually would have been pretty much parallel to the ground. Michael Brown was 6'3''. So there's no way, unless you have an officer shooting from a higher position, or an officer who is 7 foot tall, that he could have shot and had the bullet move downward. So Michael Brown had to have been moving forward, head down. The most

likely reasonably conjectured position, scenario is that his body was toppling forward, because that head wound would have been the fatal shot. He would not have been able to move after the bullet entered his brain.

BALDWIN: That's what they were describing this morning. They called it the kill shot, that final shot at the top of his skull through the brain. So that is what you saw and heard from this news conference.

Let me just talk legal for a minute with you, Sunny Hostin, because what struck me is when -- even before Dr. Baden and his assistant spoke, you heard from Ben Crump, you heard from multiple attorneys all sort of laying out their case based upon this preliminary second independent autopsy. What did you make of that?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I think we really need to take a step back here, Brooke, and realize that this is really not a complicated case.

It's not a whodunit case. This is a case of whether or not this officer, in a justified manner, shot Michael Brown. Was this excessive force? Was this a justified shooting? And that's the bottom line. So now we have in drips and drabs, because we don't have the official autopsy report. I think that's very telling. We don't have the official officer's report. I think that's very telling, quite frankly.

I think this investigation has been conducted in a very opaque manner, a very less-than-transparent manner. But the bottom line here is that the question that -- the questions that really need to be asked are not necessarily questions about the autopsy, quite frankly. They're questions --

BALDWIN: But about what?

HOSTIN: -- about what made -- what made this officer shoot a 6'4'', 18-year-old kid at noon. What caused that shooting? What was that about being justified?

And I just want to mention that I was just hearing your interview with my good friends Mark O'Mara, Don Lemon. And they both were saying that eyewitness testimony is not credible.

As a former prosecutor, I can tell you that eyewitnesses do a lot. They are very credible more often than not. We build our cases around eyewitnesses. And to say that these people that saw this shooting are somehow not credible, to sort of put that out there in the atmosphere and make that part of the narrative, I really, really think is a dangerous thing to do.

BALDWIN: OK.

So what about back to your point about whether or not it's a justified shooting? Hearing from Dr. Baden, there were -- it was six shots, at least, and when it comes down to it, doesn't this officer have to justify each and every shot, the reason why each shot was fired from his gun?

HOSTIN: Absolutely.

I mean, was he in danger of his life? We now know -- and it seems that he knew as well -- these were unarmed boys. These were unarmed people. And with -- if, indeed, the forensics show there was a shot to his palm, I think that lends a lot of credence to the eyewitness testimony that his hands were up. An officer, if he's justified, his life had to have been in danger.

And if these shots, six of them took place at a distance, I would say that's a very, very difficult case for a defense team. It's an easy case for a prosecutor.

BALDWIN: It is. According to this doctor, this pathologist that was speaking this morning, it was at least a distance, at least two feet from the muzzle, based upon the lack of residue on the skin.

But, Dr. Wecht, because they didn't have access to Michael Brown's clothing, there could be residue on the clothing, which could mean it was closer, correct?

WECHT: Well, the two face head wounds, obviously, were not covered by wearing apparel. So, don't have any problem or hesitation there.

With regard to the other garments, pants, shoes and socks are of no consequence. I have yet to be told by anybody what he was wearing. If he was wearing a T-shirt, then the only wound that could possibly have been covered would be the wound in the upper arm.

We will have to know whether the entire arm was covered. I agree that the clothing examination has to be revealed to be told whether or not there was any stippling or gunpowder residue. I doubt very much because even if he has something, summertime wear, and if the shot had been fired at closer range, most likely some of the gunpowder residue would have made its way through a little thin summer shirt.

But we will see with the clothing. I think that these were distant shots. That means with a handgun beyond 24 inches, most probably beyond 18 inches, and you can't be more specific than that. It could be 29, 43, 72 or 91. You just can't say. You can only say that it was a shot beyond the distance of 24 and most likely beyond the distance of 18 inches.

BALDWIN: Dr. Wecht, we appreciate all your time with us on CNN today.

WECHT: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And being able to tap into your expertise. We really appreciate it. And, Sunny Hostin, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Coming up, we're staying on Ferguson, because schools are once again closed today, as the National Guard is now moving in. And coming up, I will talk live with a representative of this school district about the decision to shut down and how this unrest really is affecting young people in this community. And the anger in Ferguson seems to be much more than simply about the death of one young man.

According to my next guest, it is a scream of rage by people who are suffering in this country.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right.

Just to show you how tense the situation has been going here, we have some breaking news we wanted to tell you about. Take a look. There has been a huge police presence that has descended on the new location where we are. We were moved from the Q.T., or the QuikTrip, a little bit further down the street.

And just about maybe five minutes ago, there were people here who were trying to protest. Of course, officers have been trying to break that up. And a swarm of officers came and descended on these people. And then two people were taken away just as we were coming out of a break in a police van.

Come in here, Reverend. Tell me your name again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reverend Dina Tapman (ph).

LEMON: You were very upset by it. What happened? You witnessed it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I did.

We had one of our mothers who was standing still. Yes, she was standing still. And she said, I'm hurt and I'm tired. And they came swarming and they said, ma'am, you have to keep walking. She said, I don't want to walk no more. I'm tired. I'm just tired.

And so the young people rallied around her and said mother, come on. This young man started walking and said follow me. And I started hollering, follow me, because I saw them swarming. And the police officer kept saying, if you don't keep moving, I'm taking you to jail. I said, he's moving. And I said, young brother, stand next to me and walk. And he kept speaking his right to speak.

They didn't like what he was saying. And I said, brother, keep walking. As he was walking, they swarmed and slammed him to the ground. And I hollered to the top of my voice, he wasn't doing anything. He was walking.

LEMON: What's your name, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cammy (ph).

LEMON: Then you said you -- what happened?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the two guys were walking in front and I heard the police officers. They were moving towards the front because they told everybody to move.

And I was walking back in the back of them. And one police officer said, hey, we need to take them two down. And one police officer said, which one? He said the black guy and the white guy. And every -- and all the police just came and rushed them and slammed them to the ground. And they didn't do anything. That is crazy.

LEMON: Has that been happening?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It started on Sunday when they caged them in like animals like they're doing now.

They said, you can exercise your First Amendment right, but you can only exercise it where I tell you, you can. So when you box people in, and make them feel -- they are already feeling devalued and hurt, they feel like animals.

Look at what happened Thursday. We had people all over the Saint Louis metropolitan area, no incidents, and then Friday, the power of the people.

LEMON: Do you guys think that the -- by bringing the National Guard in, is that going to ratchet the tension up or is it going to bring it down?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's going to make it worse.

LEMON: Why is that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because they're not giving people a chance to speak or do what they need to do around here.

You can't even stand out here. They're making you --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Protest -- they're snatching you and pushing you away, or they will lock you up. "Give me your I.D."

They're doing everything they aren't supposed to do. You know, it's not right.

LEMON: They're arresting people for disorderly conduct? Those people were arrested for disorderly contact -- conduct?