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CNN NEWSROOM

Obama Wants Review of Police Weaponry; Wilson Supporters: We Will Not Hide Anymore; Tropical Depression in the Caribbean; Outcry Over Fears Prosecutor is Biased; Man Saves Son from ISIS, Helps Other; Should Americans Be Concerned About ISIS; Obama to Review Federal Program Giving Military Equipment to Police; Days Away from Emmy Awards

Aired August 23, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And we are tracking a story coming into CNN just in the last hour or so. A senior administration official tells CNN that President Obama is demand a review of all federal programs that allow local police to receive surplus military weapons and equipment. The issue of police militarization has been front and center as you know. Since the nation first saw the police response to the protests in Ferguson, Missouri. Critics say, the Ferguson police tactics featuring riot gear and heavy weapons, armored vehicles were well over the top.

CNN's Erin McPike is standing by with more at the White House. Erin, what more can you tell us about the president's decision, it sounds like a very comprehensive warrant, a very serious review of this transfer of military equipment.

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, that's right, it is and I was just e-mailing with the senior administration official who told me quote, "the president has asked for a review of whether these programs are appropriate, whether state and local law enforcement are provided with the necessary training and guidance and whether the federal government is sufficiently auditing the use of equipment obtained through federal programs and funding."

And to that end, how wide ranging this is. It will include White House staff including the Domestic Policy Council, the National Security Council, OMB as well as the Department of Defense, Homeland Security, justice, treasury, as well as Congressional hearings. And that's something that we know that several lawmakers have been calling for throughout the past week. Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill has been front and center about this, warning about these problems, and saying that she does want to hold Congressional hearings in September -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, this review gets not only to how this transfer is done, the training et cetera. But to the very question of whether it's appropriate at all, can you explain what the administration's thought process has been on this? Because this has been going virtually since 9/11. Is it purely about Ferguson? Was that really the spark here for this review? MCPIKE: Well, certainly Ferguson did spark this review and President

Obama spoke about this on Monday. He said that he doesn't want to blur the lines of course between local law enforcement and the military, but this did come about after 9/11 and the reason is that local law enforcement in small communities could not handle terrorist attacks and they needed to have some of this equipment in order to do that. But now, the question is the funding that local communities are getting for this equipment, are they using it for the right purposes and that is really why this review is happening and that they need to have the proper training for those purposes -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: And those pictures that we've been showing as Erin's been talking there, it's been captivating to Americans seeing what looks like a military presence in American neighborhood in response to the Ferguson protests. Thanks very much to Erin McPike at the White House.

The protests in Ferguson today attracted fewer people and certainly a lot less drama than the angry gatherings we became familiar with earlier this week. The NAACP held a youth march calling for a federal review of all police killings. Also, it wants immediate action on what it calls the quote unjustified use of lethal and excessive force by police against unarmed people of color. Today though, the loudest protest voices coming from St. Louis were actually in support of the Ferguson police officer who shot and killed 18-year-old Michael Brown. Officer Darren Wilson supporters say, they will not hide in the shadows anymore, even after reportedly receiving threats to their safety. The leader of an online group supporting Wilson says it is time for them to stand up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our mission is to formally declare that we share the united belief that Officer Wilson's actions on August 9th were warranted and justified and he has our unwavering support. Many of us have received death threats against ourselves and our families. Contrary to media suggestions, we are not affiliated with any hate groups. At the end of the statement, the media will inevitably ask for my name, other's names and relationships, job titles, stories, et cetera, you want my name? My name is Darren Wilson. We are Darren Wilson. Thank you.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Officer Wilson had gone into hiding. A fund supporting him topping $300,000 just this week.

Our national reporter Nick Valencia is covering the Wilson rally in St. Louis. Nick, you know, this is just one example of how virtually everything involved in this story has involved disagreement and controversy and you're seeing that today. We've seen protests supporting Brown and the family, now, you're seeing the officer's supporters. NICK VALENCIA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We've seen a very

peaceful demonstration here on behalf of Darren Wilson supporters. They showed up here to show solidarity with the officer and they have been lined up all along the street. You see folks here with signs. Some cars have stopped to honk and show their support. Just a little while ago before this live shot, we saw a car stop and show their support financially, giving a donation.

Across the street Jim, in the last hour, counter demonstrators, less than a dozen showing up on that side. I asked them if how they're being treated, they say, we're leaving them alone, they're leaving us alone, but they wanted to show their support for Mike Brown here in St. Louis which is about 30 or 40 minutes outside of Ferguson. Today, they say they've raised at least $10,000 in support of Darren Wilson. That's along with the more than $234,000 that they've raised on the Go Fund Me site.

They've used t-shirts to raise that money. They say, this is not just for his defense, but also for his livelihood. People here that I've spoken to worry and are concerned that he will never be able to put on a police uniform again, that he really after this, his image is tainted and he's been mischaracterized, misportrayed and unfairly represented by the media at large. They say that this has been barely a one sided story. Earlier, we also saw somebody come here to try to disrupt this peaceful rally and confront Darren Wilson supporters.

She showed up here saying, I asked her, I had the chance to ask her, you know, why would you come here to disrupt a peaceful rally? And she said, well, our rallies are disrupted when we, she said as black Americans, when we do rallies, we're shot at, we're targeted, unjustly targeted and I wanted them to know what it felt like. But all together, you look behind me here Jim, it's been really quiet right now. But you know, people are really showing their support. Earlier we saw, at least at the height of this, probably about 100 people, maybe 150, 200 people throughout the day, all really passionate about their support for Darren Wilson and they wanted that message to be shown to the public -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Nick Valencia at a protest supporting the Officer Darren Wilson involved in that shooting. Thanks very much.

Well, in New York, thousands of people marched through the streets today in support of another unarmed black man who died after being put into a chokehold by New York police. "We Will Not Go Back" march was lead by the Reverend Al Sharpton. People carried signs with phrases like black lives matter and hold killer cops accountable. Eric Garner was tackled by police after allegedly trying to sell cigarettes illegally, but some said he had his hands up and was surrendering. The officer involved has had his badge and gun taken away while that incident is under investigation.

Overseas, a series of bloody attacks marked a very sad day across Iraq. With the terrifying threat of ISIS still ever present and growing. In Kirkuk in Northern Iraq, three car bombs and a roadside bomb exploded in close succession in different areas of that city, killing at least 20 people, wounding 113 others. A suicide bomber targeted the Intelligence Headquarters in Central Baghdad, the capital is well today claiming four lives. And just a short time ago, CNN learned that U.S. military forces carried out an air strike against ISIS targets near the Mosul dam in Northern Iraq. The question now, are air strikes targeting ISIS in Syria next.

And next, calls for the District Attorney in Ferguson to step aside, while at the same time the credibility of one witness to the shooting of Michael Brown is questioned because of a previous run in with police. We're talking about both sides of those stories and more just ahead.

JENNIFER GRAY, AMS METEOROLOGIST: And tropical depression number four formed moments ago in the Caribbean, but will it have an impact on the U.S.? I'll have the latest on it and the forecast track right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And right now, our newest tropical depression is sweeping across the Caribbean, but will it turn into a bigger problem on its way to the U.S.?

We have CNN meteorologist Jennifer Gray joining me now. Jennifer, how worried should we be about this one?

GRAY: Well, we are going to keep our eye on it. That is for sure. This is one that we've been watching for quite some time, finally getting its act together. In the last 20 minutes, the hurricane hunters have been out all day crisscrossing this one and it has dumped a lot of rain across Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic for the past 24 to 48 hours. And now that it's pulled away from that rugged terrain, it has finally allowed to get its act together somewhat. Still a ragged looking storm, but it has finally found that low level circulation that we've been looking for. Finally enough to get it to that tropical depression status, and so now that it's entering these warmer waters, it's entering into the Southern Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, it's going start to have an impact on those islands.

And so, as it enters into those warmer waters, away from that mountainous terrain, it's going to start to have a little bit of a window to get better organized and so, that's the concern is that it's going to start to strengthen a little bit and then that's when it's going to start to get better organized, it could strengthen even more. So right now, it's a pretty weak storm. Thirty five mile per hour winds moving to the northwest at about 12 miles per hour and it's going to continue on that path. Now, this is the forecast track from the National Hurricane Center and right now, the good news is, it mainly keeps it offshore of the continental U.S. You're going to see keeping it to the East, Florida, the Carolinas, but you can see this cone, it is very, very wide.

So, a lot of uncertainty with it. So, a little bit of wobble to the west and so, that will be more of a concern to say the Carolinas and even the east coast of Florida, so we are going to keep a very close watch on this. It does project it, becoming possibly a tropical storm and even a category one hurricane, so even if it does stay offshore, we are going to be looking at an increase in those surf. We're also going to be looking at rip currents as well, so one to watch over the next couple of days. Definitely, don't keep your guard down -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes. We'll see if it gets a name because then we know we've really got to be worried. Thanks very much to Jennifer Gray as always in Atlanta.

GRAY: Right.

SCIUTTO: Also here in the U.S., he is juggling two roles, overseeing the presentation of evidence in the Michael Brown case to a grand jury and responding at the same time to the flurry of attacks and calls for him to step down from the case.

CNN's Jean Casarez takes a look at what St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch may bring to the table.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERT MCCULLOCH, ST. LOUIS COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Every witness who has anything at all to say will be presented to the grand jury.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the man, St. Louis county prosecutor, Robert McCullough, who will be responsible if there is a prosecution in the death of 18-year-old Michael Brown.

MCCULLOCH: I can't guarantee and won't guarantee and nobody can any particular outcome on this investigation. We don't know where the investigation is going to end up.

CASAREZ: And some in the community want this lead prosecutor out because they feel he'll be biased.

JAMILAH NASHEED, MISSOURI STATE SENATOR: Bob McCulloch, if you're listening, voluntarily recuse yourself from this investigation. The people and the African-American community, they do not have the confidence that you will be fair and impartial.

CASAREZ: The outcry caused by McCullough's deep die ties to the police in this community. His own father, a police officer was murdered while on duty in 1964 by a black man. Missouri State Senator Jamilah Nasheed is calling for special prosecutor to replace McCulloch. She spelled out her concerns in a letter to him.

If you should decide to not indict this police officer, the rioting we witnessed this past week, will seem like a picnic compared to the havoc that will likely occur.

Protesters at his office demanded that he recuse himself. And an online petition calling for his removal from the investigation has garnered tens of thousands of signatures.

McCulloch has been the chief prosecutor for St. Louis County for 23 years dealing with hundreds of prosecutions. He made a name for himself early on this 1991 prosecuting Axl Rose of Guns n' Roses fame when rioting broke out after their concert. The case ended with a plea deal.

And McCulloch is no stranger to controversy. In 2000 a grand jury did not return an indictment against two police officers for shooting to death two black suspects in a drug raid who were unarmed but at the wheel of a vehicle officers said was coming right for them. McCulloch made this controversial statement at the time.

MCCULLOCH: It's what I said then. I think that they were bums then. I think they're bums now.

CASAREZ: His office released this statement to CNN. The people have fate in Mr. McCulloch and he will continue to do his duties.

(on camera): The St. Louis district attorneys' office tells me they want to begin to present witness testimony before the grand jury on Wednesday. One question is whether the officer, Darren Wilson, will take the stand to testify before that grand jury, a right he has under Missouri law.

Jean Casarez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: So, what do legal analysts think about the St. Louis county prosecutor? We're going to ask our own experts about that and the racial makeup of the grand jury that will be listening to this case, will could it mean moving forward? We're going to discuss that and other issues right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: We're going return now to Ferguson, Missouri and the many legal debates surrounding the death of Michael Brown. You get the sense in fact that those debates are just beginning.

I want to bring in now our panel, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, Holly Hughes, she's joining me from Atlanta and CNN legal analyst and criminal defense Attorney Danny Cevallos here in New York, a bit closer to New York.

Danny, I want to start with you now because you wrote a piece for CNN.com talking about Robert Mcculloch, he's the local prosecutor there, that he should be kept on the case. We've just played a piece that showed a lot of the controversy that he's been involved into the past. Why do you think he should stay on this?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it's more that we haven't heard any compelling reason why this prosecutor should either recuse himself or be disqualified under Missouri law. First let's look, it's been alleged that he has a relationship with members of the police. First, there is no specific alleged relationship with this police officer and that's the operative inquiry. The reality is prosecutors work hand in hand with police officers and know them socially and have general relationships with law enforcement all the time. Every prosecutor when they get their badge knows that someday, they

may be called upon to prosecute the police and as long as there is no direct relationship between this putative defendant, the potential defendant and the prosecutor, then that alone, the mere fact that someone has a relationship with the police should not disqualify them. Part two, and I'll address this briefly, there's been much made of his history, his family history, that his father may have been shot by an alleged robber. And that should really not factor in.

I mean, maybe nowhere else than the criminal justice system. Do we see prosecutors and public defenders who get that fire in their belly from some early family trauma. And the idea that we would take that same motivation for them to do a job that's really hard for not a lot of pay and turn it against them to disqualify them, would just be patently unfair and part two, it would grind our justice system to a halt because prosecutors everywhere would be being disqualified for either A, the fact that they know a few police officers or B, that they have some family history and that's really unfair to bring up their family history as a reason for their disqualification.

SCIUTTO: All right. Fair points Danny Cevallos. You have the question of the prosecutors, of course you also have the question of the make-up of the jury. Holly, I want to ask you, we're seeing the make-up now, seven male, five females, three African-Americans, nine Caucasians on the jury. In your experience, you know, it's not an exact science but you want these juries to be representative. Do those number sound representative in favor to you?

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They do sound representatives, but more important than those factors, what you want to know is are these people parents? Do they have children? Have they had run ins with this particular police department? Good or bad. So, there's more than just you know, I know as analysts, we like to just look at numbers and say, well, there's this many men, this many women, this many black, this many white, it means this and you're absolutely right. You can't know what that means.

What we need these jurors to do is listen to all the evidence. It's going to be a lot of scientific evidence here, Jim, so, they just need to be fair, open minded people who are looking for the truth of the matter. They're going to look at the autopsy results. They're going to listen to all of the witnesses and they're going to decide if they find them credible for either side. But remember, this is the prosecutor's show. What's going to be put before the grand jury is what the prosecutor thinks is sufficient to return an indictment and bring this officer into a court of law.

SCIUTTO: Just very quickly, a technical issue here, would this jury have been sequestered Holly from the news about surrounding this case in the lead up to it?

HUGHES: They won't be sequestered in the sense that they're locked in a hotel room, but grand jury proceedings are secret by their very nature. You are not allowed to discuss anything. And that's one of the oaths they take, when they're sworn in as grand jurors. It is a completely secret proceeding. Nobody knows what goes on in that room except for the members of that grand jury and each individual witness hears their specific part.

SCIUTTO: OK.

HUGHES: But nobody gets the whole expect that grand jury.

SCIUTTO: So, secret, but not sequestered. Danny, I want to go to you now. Because there are new questions about Dorian Johnson, he was Michael Brown's friend. A lot of the viewers may remember him, he was one the first witness who was on the air a lot just after the shooting. There are questions now about his past. The report from the Jefferson City Police Department that said he was arrested in 2011 for stealing a backpack, but he also lied to police about his identity at the time. You know, looking at that Danny, is that a major issue in terms of getting to his credibility in your experience?

CEVALLOS: If Dorian Johnson has credibility problems, it will not be because of his arrest record. Now, it is true that in Missouri, evidence of a prior conviction can come into impeach a witness and when you impeach a witness, you basically attack their credibility and a conviction, even if it's very old in Missouri, can't come in, but that's the operative word is conviction. A mere arrest or the fact you've been investigated or even the fact that you went through a trial cannot be introduced against you as evidence of your lack of credibility or to impeach you as a witness. Now, make no mistake, Dorian Johnson may ultimately have other credibility issues. They simply will not be related to any arrest that did not result in a conviction.

SCIUTTO: Great points. Danny Cevallos, Holly Hughes. A lot of questions are going to come up. It doesn't necessarily mean that the people involved are not going to be fairly involved. We appreciate having you on as always.

Coming up next, a father's dangerous journey to Syria to find his lost son. Worried, he was caught up in radical Islam. We'll have that after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto, in Washington.

We want to return now to our coverage of ISIS and the threat that it is posing in the Middle East and possibly beyond. One man has a unique perspective on the group that is recruiting young men from the United States and Europe. He risked his life to save his own 18-year- old son from al-Qaeda-linked militants in Syria. Now, he helps other Western fathers to help bring their sons home from ISIS.

CNN's Atika Shubert has his story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN ANCHOR: As a teenager, Yuyun (ph) Bontinck danced in this music video, but within a year, he went from this to this. A young Muslim convert preaching in the streets of Akbar. DIMITRI BONTINCK, RESCUED SON FROM TERROR GROUP: He started to become

very religious, always praying. Don't wear Western clothes anymore. We really see the signs of radicalization.

SHUBERT: Then Yuyun (ph) said he was leaving to study in Cairo, but when he missed his younger sister's birthday, his father knew his son was actually in Syria.

BONTINCK: On that day, no phone call, no message. That day, I know something is going wrong.

SHUBERT: Bontinck began to search the Internet for any sign of his son.

BONTINCK: I discovered a video for a television. On that video, I see friends from the radicalization, they speak the language. So when I saw that, I knew my son was gone.

SHUBERT: Against the advice of police and his lawyer, Bontinck decided to go after him himself. He kept a video diary that he gave to CNN.

His search began in the north of Syria with three lawyers of Aleppo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We show you the video of the son, but he says he doesn't know you (ph).

SHUBERT: The trail eventually leads to Syria's Islamic extremists.

BONTINCK: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

SHUBERT: In his video, Bontinck seems to sympathize with them, trying on their weapon, but also capturing extraordinary moments. A jihadi fighter sits down to play a grand piano in an abandoned luxury home, scenes that change his views on Islam and the Syrian conflict.

BONTINCK: The only thing I know it's like people who (INAUDIBLE).

SHUBERT (on camera): But you changed your mind.

BONTINCK: Why, because I had been in Syria and met so many Muslim people groups, fighting groups, with al-Qaeda and terrorists. And I'm not a Muslim, and if you see what these people had done for me, slipping foods, they search for me everywhere.

SHUBERT (voice-over): But Bontinck did not succeed at first. It took nearly a year and two trips before he could track down Yuyun (ph). He says he found him months later with an Islamist group.

BONTINCK: They beat me. They almost killed me. Took all my clothes out. Put a cap on me. They hide me. Because they suspect me, you are CIA. But in the end they believe me and they let me go. And this same leader, he let my son return home.

SHUBERT (on camera): What was it like when you saw your son? BONTINCK: We were crying. I never cry before when he was missing,

but the first physical contact, I hold him like a small baby. It's like children who lost their parents along the way.

SHUBERT (voice-over): He was released without charge now monitored by Belgian police, but barred from speaking to the press. He is also facing charges of recruiting jihadists to fight in Syria. His father insists his son is innocent, but it's easy to see where Yuyun (ph) gets his taste for adventure and perhaps, an inflated sense of his own importance.

BONTINCK: They respect me and why? Because for them, it was amazing, amazing that a father from the West, was not a Muslim, tried to risk his life to a war country to look for his own son, a son who is one of them. So I was a hero for them. I was a hero for them.

SHUBERT: A hero or an adventurer, a lost child or a jihadi, many questions unanswered, like father, like son.

Atika Shubert, CNN, Antwerp, Belgian.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Just a fascinating story being played out with many families in the U.S. and Europe. But with growing threat more dangerous by the day from ISIS, should Americans be concerned about ISIS militants on American soil? And are airstrikes in Syria the next best option to control ISIS?

I want to bring in CNN national security analyst and former CIA operative, Bob Baer, in Los Angeles.

Bob, fascinating story there. I think one of the takeaways is that ISIS fighters, they don't come from outer space, right? They come from real families, they're real people and you listen to the story of that Dutch father and son, there's a real attraction to young Muslim men, adventurous sense of purpose. That's part of the problem here.

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST & FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: You're exactly right. These kids see this injustice going on in the Middle East. They have an over-simplified view of what's happening in Palestinian and Gaza and Israel and the rest, they look at Iraq, the sectarian violence and they're looking for a cause and their conversion to radical Islam is one of slow accrual, but a very dangerous one because at the end of it is the idea of martyrdom. I followed British -- who were from the suburbs, well raised, educated, but believed they had to go to Israel to conduct jihadi operations against the IDF, in this case, and this has happened to the Americans. In May, we had an American blow himself up, from Florida, in Syria. It's very attractive for young people and it takes years and years before they decide it's not worth it, but in the meantime, it does pose a danger for this country.

SCIUTTO: You know, I've had a similar experience meeting jihadis from the U.K. You expect them to sound like monsters, but oftentimes, they sound like you and me. That was shocking, the man who killed James Foley. There's partly a military response, airstrikes and possibility of ground troops, et cetera. Is that the only way to control something like this? What else can countries do to stop that flow into a group like this?

BAER: We have to do something about these conflicts, and I say have to do it in a diplomatic way. Friday, there was a very significant massacre in a Sunni mosque and the Sunnis have reacted over the weekend. Getting tons and tons of e-mails from Anbar Province. They are furious about this. It's that kind of violence which fuels other violence in the rest of Iraq, which again, will attract more recruits. We have to disrupt ISIS, but at the end of the day, diplomatically, you have to tamper down these conflicts. You've got to do what you've got to do.

I think in Iraq, the more I look at it, the clearer it is that country has to be divided up into three countries. I just don't see it coming back together. The tribes, Anbar Province where most of the Sunni live are tribally organized. They've said we are not going back. We don't care if there's a new prime minister and they will support ISIS implicitly until they give some sort of separation from the Shia and Kurds.

SCIUTTO: Do you believe the Obama administration has a strategy to counter ISIS or is it more reactive at this point?

BAER: It's tactical. ISIS, the rise of ISIS came as a surprise. They're reacting to ISIS' taking of Mosul, of killing James Foley. But at the end of the day, I don't think it knows what to do about the conflict in the Middle East. It's complicated. You can't blame this administration -- that would be wrong -- or blame it for doing what's in Iraq, but the nature, the violence is such that it doesn't know what to do about it. And it will constantly be a surprise until we sit down and figure out a plan here.

SCIUTTO: The U.S., Europe, the region struggling to come up with solutions.

Thanks very much to Bob Baer as always.

Just ahead, a man who was listening in on that conversation and has some thoughts of his own about ISIS. He is Congressman Adam Schiff, senior member of the House Intelligence Committee, joins us live after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Congress is on summer recess, but while they've been away, there's been no shortage of big stories. Just this hour, we've learned President Obama wants a review of federal programs that allow police departments to purchase surplus military hardware like we saw on the ground in Ferguson the last few weeks.

Let's talk about that and other issues in the news with Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff in California.

Congress Schiff, the president spoke earlier in the week about raising questions about this military equipment, but this goes back years, to 9/11, in many ways predates 9/11. Do you think there should be a review now and why do you think anyone thought, at any point, that police on the street would need armored personnel carriers and all the kind of equipment we saw on the street in Ferguson these last couple of weeks?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF, (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, I think the review is very much called for and I'm glad the president is understood taking it. A lot of the material provided under these programs are not controversial, things like bulletproof vests, helmets, helicopters, which police routinely use. But you're right, there are other equipment that have been under this program, large mine-resistant vehicles, very hard to justify. There may be a district or two along the border that's heavily involved in drug violence where they can justify something like this, but in most of the country, it's hard to see how that would be useful. And it can also be very costly to own and dangerous to utilize without adequate training. So I'm glad the president has undertaken this review. Those images certainly give a police force an impression of being there standing against the community, not with it. And that alone, I think, merits investigation.

SCIUTTO: Sometimes it seems to make the protest worse, not better. At last that was the argument of some critics.

I want to turn now to ISIS, if we can. Is it your view that the U.S., that the administration has a strategy to block the advance, push back the advance of ISIS in Iraq and Syria or are you seeing more a reactive policy here? Because, remember, it was just a few weeks ago where there were no military strikes in Iraq and now there are military strikes in Iraq and consideration of military strikes in Syria.

SCHIFF: I think there is a strategy that's emerging. It isn't static because ISIS hasn't been static. But I think right now what the administration is really pushing for is to contain ISIS in Iraq by providing military equipment, training, intelligence, aerial support as well as forming an international coalition to put pressure on ISIS, in Syria, to get Turkey to close their border to the sworn jihadis, to get the Qataris and the Kuwaitis and the Saudis to dry up external funding, to get our European partners to provide more in terms of humanitarian and military support for the Kurds. So I think there is a strategy, but as I saw, as the threat is evolving, that strategy has to evolve with it.

SCIUTTO: You're on the House Intelligence Committee, a senior member. You've been getting briefings on the threat from ISIS. I've been hearing from intel officials for months about the threat, not just to the region, but to Europe and the American homeland because of the possibility of returning foreign fighters out there. That threat's been out there for months. Is it your view that the U.S. underestimated the rise of ISIS and waited too late in reacting in recent weeks rather than months ago?

SCHIFF: I think the rapid spread of ISIS did take us by surprise. Certainly, we knew that ISIS was growing in power, but the fact that the Iraqi military would melt away the way it did and ISIS would be able to coop the tribes as it did was a surprise. And we're going to have to deal with it. It means that we're going to have to put far greater military pressure on ISIS and devote a lot more of our time in the years to come in trying to keep our eye on these foreign fighters who are in the fight now and will come back to Europe, will try to come back to the United States and pose a real threat to our homeland. So, yes, I think some of the speed in which it took over surprised us. The fact that it was a growing menace, we knew. But some of these things like the degree to which the Iraqi military melted away I think were beyond our capability to foresee.

SCIUTTO: Congressman, please stay with us because after the break. I want to come back to you about another issue on the president's plate, that is Russia's meddling in the eastern Ukraine. This time, it was a huge convoy of trucks that were labeled humanitarian aid. There are real questions about what was actually in that convoy. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Hundreds of Russian cargo trucks apparently have returned to Russia after entering eastern Ukraine without the government's permission. That is according to international observers in Ukraine. The truck supposedly brought humanitarian aid to eastern Ukraine where an estimated 2,000 people have died in the fighting since April. Ukraine, however, complained that some of the trucks actually brought weapons to pro-Russian rebels battling the Ukrainian government for dominance in the region.

We have Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff, of California, who's a ranking member of the intelligence committee, back with us now.

This is a game of cat and mouse that's gone on for weeks now, months in fact. You have truck convoys, whether they're carrying aid or weapons, is a question. You have Russian arms coming across. Allegations of Russian fighters on the ground, et cetera. The Ukrainian government calls this a Russian invasion. The U.S. isn't calling it that. Why isn't it? Why isn't the U.S. calling it an invasion, and responding appropriately?

SCHIFF: Well, I think it is an invasion, and not only because this convoy wasn't given permission by Ukraine to enter its territory, but perhaps even more significantly, as the NATO general recently confirmed, Russia has moved artillery pieces into Ukraine and is firing on Ukrainian positions from within Ukraine. If that's not an invasion, I'm not sure what is.

I think the reluctance to use that term is a reluctance to provoke Russia. But Russia doesn't need much provocation these days. I do think we may have dodged one bullet, Jim, and that is that probably the biggest fear were that these vehicles would be used by Russia to provoke Ukraine into picking a fight which would justify then a full- scale military invasion by Russia. That didn't happen. I think Ukraine very sensibly didn't take the bait. Russia offered similar bait to Georgia several years ago and Russia still occupies parts of Georgia. SCIUTTO: So looking at this now, do you believe that the

administration's policy, the U.S. administration's policy of gradually ratcheting up the economic costs with each escalation on the part of Russia, do you think that is effectively deterring Putin?

SCHIFF: Really, I think it probably the effective deterrent we have. And it's not deterring everything that we'd like to see Putin stop. But we don't have that many instruments at our behest here. There have been calls for providing greater military support to Ukraine. We could do that, but if the Russians want to go in, nothing we provide the Ukrainians in terms of military support is going to stop them.

I think the reason why Putin has slowed his move into Ukraine is because of the economic costs and the diplomatic costs. He, I think, is being forced, by his own public opinion now, the monster that he created, in descending into these aid convoys after promising to protect the Russian population anywhere in the world. But I think those sanctions have had a deterrent impact. Frankly, I'd like to see Europe and the United States go further now that we have these additional violations with the convoy and with these artillery units firing from within Ukrainian territory on Ukraine itself.

SCIUTTO: The congressman wants to see Europe and the U.S. move further. That's a question we'll be watching in the coming days and weeks.

Thanks very much as always to Congressman Adam Schiff in California. He's on the House Intelligence Committee.

Coming up next, we are just two days away from the 66th annual Emmy Awards. And from "Game of Thrones" to "Breaking Bad," the competition has never been tougher. We'll take a look at the favorites.

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SCIUTTO: The Emmys will be given out on Monday night and this year's ceremony may be more star-studded than in year's past.

Here is CNN's Nischelle Turner with a preview.

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NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The primetime Emmy Awards.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I demand a trial by comeback.

TURNER: It may not be the "Game of Thrones" but the stakes are high for nominees hoping to turn an Emmy win into ratings gold.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Emmys have always been a big help to newcomers, but in terms of what they're worth to the industry, it seems like they've become a much, much bigger deal.

TURNER: Ratings aren't a concern about death and dragons. It also earned the most nominations of any show this year, 19. It's facing competition in the best drama category. Many experts are saying "Breaking Bad's" final season makes it the favorite.

BRIAN CRANSTON, ACTOR: Everything is going to be fine, but we need to leave right now.

TURNER: Leading man Brian Cranston is nominated for best actor in a drama, but he could lose out to the man who just won a best actor Oscar.

MATTHEW MCCONAUGHEY, ACTOR: Our faces blend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this is the year of Matthew McConaughey. I think it's natural to say he'll probably win that like he won the Oscar.

TURNER: As the star of HBO's "True Detective" McConaughey would have to beat out Cranston and Woody Harrelson and "Mad Men's" Jon Hamm, who's been nominated seven times and never won.

JON HAMM, ACTOR: I worry about a lot of things but I don't worry about you.

TURNER: "Modern Family" goes into Emmy night on a four-year winning streak for best comedy category. The biggest obstacle to a record- breaking Emmy, a newcomer on Netflix.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like "Orange is the News Black" may be coming up for Netflix and could upset "Modern Family."

TURNER: And if there was a theme this year, it might be how the Television Academy has recognized so few shows from the networks that used to be in control.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Remember the good old days of CBS, ABC, NBC, even FOX? Where are they in these Emmys? Really, they've been just overwhelmed.

TURNER: Best chances for a network win in the drama and comedy categories might be in the lead actress in a drama category where "The Good Wife's" Julianna Margolise is seen as one of the favorites.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Get out of here, Alicia. You're fired.

JULIANNA MARGOLISE, ACTRESS: No.

TURNER: All of the drama and comedy will play out Monday on television's biggest night.

(CROSSTALK)

TURNER: Nischelle Turner, CNN, Hollywood.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: I'm Jim Sciutto. I'm going to see you back here in just one hour. "SMERCONISH" begins right now.