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CNN TONIGHT

9-year-old girl Accidentally Shoots, Kills Her Instructor at a Gun Range; President Obama Considers Expanding Air Campaign against ISIS; Texas Governor Rick Perry Faces Felony Indictment

Aired August 27, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN HOST: It's 11 p.m. out east. I'm Don Lemon. Welcome back to CNN TONIGHT.

It doesn't get any easier to watch. The video of a 9-year-old girl accidentally shooting and killing her instructor at a gun range. But in America, where it can be entirely legal for a child to shoot an Uzi, are there any common-sense gun rules that we can agree on?

Also, what price is this country willing to pay to stop ISIS? Can we risk being drawn deeper into Iraq and Syria?

Plus, having a say. Having to say you're sorry. Zara apologizing for a shirt for toddlers that looks an awful lot like a holocaust uniform. ESPN is apologizing on NFL player Michael Sam have it. And Texas police apologizing for pulling over an innocent women and handcuffing her in front of her children.

But are there times when sorry is just isn't enough? We're going to get into all of that.

But I want to begin with the disturbing story of that 9-year-old girl who accidentally killed her shooting instructor. Jean Casarez has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An Arizona outdoor gun range, end of summer. Family time together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to keep that held in.

CASAREZ: A 9-year-old girl learning how to shoot an automatic Uzi by an instructor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Go ahead and give me one shot. All right! All right. Full on.

CASAREZ: Those fateful last words, all right, full auto.

SAL BERTOCCI, RETIRED NYPD BALLISTICS EXPERT: He just put the gun on fully auto, and he tells her that -- his left hand is holding the bottom of the magazine where it should be on somewhere closer to the top of the weapon. She looks very uncomfortable holding the weapon. And when she pulls the trigger, he loses the grip on the bottom of the magazine and gets muzzle rise and winds up getting shot.

CASAREZ: The sheriff's department says the recoil from the powerful weapon sends the gun out of her control, over her head. 39-year-old instructor Charles Vacca, a member of California's National Guard died later at the hospital.

BERTOCCI: She probably hit the full auto, wasn't expecting the recoil that she got, and was completely surprised by it.

CASAREZ: What it's like when the shots come out? Describe it.

BERTOCCI: It's going to be like a buzz saw going off in your hands.

CASAREZ: The outdoor shooting range Bullets and Burgers advertises on the highway. Stop in, fire a machine gun, and enjoy a meal. And their rules fitting within Arizona law allow children 8-years-old and up to shoot the guns.

BERTOCCI: I would want to see a little bit more experience from the girl and see that the girl was little more comfortable handling single shot weapons before giving her a fully automatic weapon.

CASAREZ: The Mohave county sheriff's office has determined there will be no charges. But other states have decided these accidents could be crimes.

In 2008 in Massachusetts, a 9-year-old boy accidentally shoots himself at a gun show while also firing an Uzi. His father records it all on video. But it is the show organizer Edward Fleury charged with involuntary manslaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You the jury find the defendant not guilty.

CASAREZ: Flour which was acquitted. But as a result, the victim's home state of Connecticut now makes it illegal to give or sell machine guns to anyone under 16. And just last year in New Jersey, Anthony Senatoria's (ph) son shot his 6-year-old neighbor to death. Now Senatoria (ph) has been charged with six counts of child endangerment. He rejected a plea deal which included prison time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was beautiful. I can hardly wait to try it out.

CASAREZ: Children and bb guns were once the stuff of Christmas tradition.

BERTOCCI: I always had a bb gun as a kid.

CASAREZ: But an Uzi?

BERTOCCI: Uzi was designed by Israeli military industries for the IDF, Israeli defense forces.

CASAREZ: A gun made for the battlefield in the hands of a child, with deadly consequences.

Jean Casarez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Goodness. Now I want to bring in Kyle Coplen, the founder of the Armed Citizens Project, which says its mission is facilitating the arming of law-abiding citizens.

Kyle, should a 9-year-old child ever be shooting an Uzi?

KYLE COPLEN, FOUNDER, ARMED CITIZEN PROJECT: Well, it depends. First of all, if you're talking about a fully automatic Uzi like this one was, I'd say with this 9-year-old girl with the amount of training, you know, there was no need for her to be behind that, and there was definitely, you know, things that could have been done on all sides to prevent it.

But, you know, it really depends about, you know, kids shooting these firearms. It depends on the instructors and the amount of training they have leading up to it. We saw a situation, a real tragic event unfold when the trainer and the little girl, you know, it just didn't match.

LEMON: So you think there is a situation? You think there are certain circumstances or situations where it's OK for a 9-year-old to be shooting an Uzi?

COPLEN: To be shooting an Uzi? Well, first of all, we're talking a 9-year-old girl. The Uzi was probably about the worst choice and firearm that she could have been using. You know, the short barrel on it, I personally wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't condone taking any 9- year-old out and teaching them submachine gun firing, especially when they're that low proficiency anyway.

LEMON: You said 9-year-old girl. Would it matter if it was a boy? Just a 9-year-old in general?

COPLEN: No, I'm speaking to the situation. It was a 9-year-old girl in the situation. A boy would be the same.

LEMON: OK. So I want you to explain to what's this weapon is like, and what kind of training you would need to be able to shoot it and to shoot it proficiently, as you say.

COPLEN: Sure. Well, here in Houston, our training partners with the Armed Citizen Product, we're a charity that trains and arms single women, single mothers in high crime neighborhoods with free pump action shotguns.

Our first concern is getting folks used to guns they're actually going to be defending their homes with. And what we need to realize with the Uzis and the automatic weapons, these aren't weapons available to the public. I've personally never shot a fully automatic firearm. I know a lot of people that are involved in guns that haven't as well. So we just need to remember, these are firearms. Like the Uzi, are not available to the average citizen. And so there are ranges like here in Houston, Boyer shooting center

does use fully auto weapons. But you have to be with one of their instructors on the range. They go through a training with you. They're very hands on. They're behind you, making sure that no accidents happen.

I think that, you know, when it comes to a parent taking their kid out to shoot a machine gun, you've got your whole life to learn how to shoot a machine gun. You know, it's kind of pushing these 9-year-olds out there, especially with an Uzi, a small compact frame, hard to control, you know. I think there could have been some better due diligence on both sides.

But you are going to see this tape get worn out most by folks in the firearm community and folks at these ranges that are going to use this moving forward. You're going see a lot of reforms I think within the shooting community as far as ranges that currently have it opened up to youth.

LEMON: How young -- how young is too young really for children to be handling guns? I mean, would it be OK for a 5-year-old to be shoot organize a 6-year-old? How young is too young?

COPLEN: Sure. We're talking firearms in general. It's really up to the parents' discretion. I mean, I know people that started at the age of four or five with the red rider bb gun and moved up from there. Steven Savidge makes a bold action, it has a lot of safety mechanisms in it 22 that is specifically made for small children. And so one of the things that is big with firearm advocates and people that own firearms, is you kill the curiosity in the child before the curiosity kills the child. You let the child know the importance of firearm safety and how powerful the gun really is.

That's why with our charity when we train women in high crime neighborhoods, we want them to bring out their entire family. We want them all to go through the safety training. Well want them all to know the rules of firearm safety and also get some range time if they're willing to and if we feel they're mature enough.

LEMON: You just said in your previous answer that you think that this video will be used to make changes when it comes to rules. I don't know if you mean gun laws. But as you know, it's tough to have any changes when it comes to gun rules or gun laws in this country. Why do you think that's going to make a difference?

COPLEN: Well, first, I'm a policy guy. And I see this as not something that is really going to have any change go about through laws. I mean, short of completely removing illegal enterprise in this country, there is not really that is going to be much that is done because it is a state by state issue. Different states have different rules on that. But what you're going to see is ranges that have, you know, some of these ranges thought the west and Arizona and outside of Vegas are going to start to tighten what they do.

So some of these ranges that now have -- you can be eight and up. I'm sure you're going to see that change. I'm sure you're going see instructors that teach the fully auto. They're now going to have it drilled into them 100 percent be behind the person, ready to stop the barrel as it comes up.

And, you know, the these people are going to be -- it's all going to come out in civil litigation. There is going to be punishments from that. And the industry is really going to take know.

LEMON: Kyle Coplen, thank you very much.

Of my next guest sees this issue differently. Shannon Watts is the founder of the moms demand action which mobilizes moms and families to advocate for stronger gun laws. You heard my interview with Kyle Coplen. What do you think about what he said?

SHANNON WATTS, FOUNDER, MOMS DEMAND ACTION CAMPAIGN: Well, first of all, I think it's outrageous that he would suggest we put the onus for gun safety on children as opposed to adults. Study after study shows that curiosity in children is innate. And when they're left alone.

LEMON: Hang on. Hang on, Shannon. He did say it's up to the parent to figure out if they think that their child is old enough or has the capability of shooting a gun. He did say that.

WATTS: He did. But he said get the curiosity out of the child before it kills him. And what we say is that the onus for safety should only be on adults. And so that means we need to safely store firearms. Unloaded, locked, away from children.

In this country, we have a real problem with unintentional deaths of children. Two million children live in homes with unsecured firearms. Two are killed unintentionally every single week. Two-thirds of those accidents could be prevented and that's what we're focused on.

LEMON: Do you think that children should ever fire a semiautomatic weapon?

WATTS: Well, this is an automatic weapon. And no, I absolutely don't. A 9-year-old has no business firing an Uzi. These are not toys. They are not accessories. And, you know, shame on adults who think that's a good idea. It's pretty outrageous.

LEMON: Are guns a problem, you know, or do you think it's a combination or is it irresponsible owners or parents?

WATTS: Well, you know, as the NRA says, you know, guns don't kill people, people kill people. And in this case, there was some bad judgment. And we need to focus on addressing and preventing the next tragedy. And we can do that by starting a national dialogue, a conversation about how do we keep children safe from unintentional shootings. It is the adult's responsibility to do that. You know, well would welcome the NRA to join that conversation with us and to talk about how do we truly keep children safe from guns in this country? We are not doing a good job of it when you compare our country to other developed nations. And it's time for us to start a national conversation.

LEMON: Do you really think the NRA will engage you in that conversation?

WATTS: Well, they should. Their members, 74 percent of NRA members support things like background checks. Ninety percent of Americans do. They need to come to the middle and stop moving so far in the extremists arena, and really start to have a dialogue and a conversation with the rest of America.

LEMON: Yes. Almost nothing in this country really is as polarizing when you deal with -- when you're talking about gun rights. I mean, are there any common sense rules you think that everyone can start to agree upon? I mean, it sort of goes off the last question I asked you about the NRA. Do you really think they'll engage you? Do you think there are any common sense rules?

WATTS: Well, one would hope first of all that children should not shoot Uzis. I think that is a common sense, you know, start. Also, this idea about how do we safely store firearms? You know, only a handful of states in this country hold adults responsible for negligence and keeping their firearms safely away from children. That needs to change. We need to hold adults accountable, and really start this conversation of what is safe storage, and how do we do that? How do we prevent these two children from being shot and killed unintentionally in this country every single week? And that's what I hope that will come out of this horrible tragedy.

LEMON: Shannon Watts, thank you. Thanks for joining us here on CNN.

WATTS: Thank you.

LEMON: When we come right back, is ISIS the most successful terrorist organization in history? And how great a price is this country willing to pay to stop them?

Plus, all apologies. Why it seems everyone from Zara to ESPN is saying sorry tonight, but is that enough to make things right?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back.

As President Obama considers expanding the air campaign against ISIS by striking targets in Syria, he gets support today from an unlikely source. And that is Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell. Normally a fierce critic, says the president is doing the right thing.

So I'm joining by Bob Baer, a CNN national security analyst and a former CIA operative, James Gelvin is professor of history at UCLA and author of the "Arab uprising. What everyone needs to know," and lieutenant general Mark Hertling, CNN military analyst and former commanding general, U.S. army in Europe in Seventh army. So quite an accomplished group we have.

So General, you first. Will bombing ISIS stop them from advancing and give the Kurds or Iraqis a chance to gain ground?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it certainly is affecting their freedom of maneuver and their freedom of movement. It won't stop them completely. But it will certainly blunt them. And I think that's part of the requirement right now to give their opposition, the Peshmerga, the Iraqi army an opportunity to fight back.

LEMON: Bob, the consensus is that bombing won't make them go away. So what does the U.S. do to isolate and destroy ISIS short of ground operations?

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: We need the entire region part of this. What the United States doesn't want to be is find itself in a position where we are bombing Raqqa, the capital of ISIS, and killing them, and it makes them look like an American war.

We need the Saudis, we need the emirates and the rest of these people. But this group does have to be summoned. I totally agree the bomb willing blunt them, but it's not going to stop them. But what we can't afford to do is get into a full-fledged war in Syria and Iraq. It could be a disaster.

LEMON: James Gelvin, ISIS has taken a lot of ground and very quickly, and they're set to be smart fighters. But can they hold the territory?

JAMES GELVIN, HISTORY PROFESSOR, UCLA: Absolutely not. It's -- ISIS consists of about 8,000 to 10,000 fighters. They have a territory that is approximately the size of Belgium. They are built on a very shaky coalition that consists of former Saddam Hussein military people, tribal leaders and religious zealots that are despised wherever they rule. So it's very unlikely they're going to be able to hold on for much longer. They have not met with significant resistance, which is why they've been so successful so quickly.

LEMON: Senator rand Paul has an op-ed in "the Wall Street Journal" that just came out. And he is criticizing the administration's foreign policy. And here is what he said. He says our Middle Eastern policy is unhinged, flailing, about to see who to act against next with little thought to the consequences. This is not a foreign policy. Is he right -- General?

HERTLING: Well, I think Mr. Paul really doesn't quite understand the implications and the complexities in that part of the world. You move in one direction one day, you're going to have to move in a different direction the other. The number of tribes, the number of religions, the number of sheiks, the number of politics, it's very difficult to get a coherent strategy against the entire Middle East.

I think our current administration is doing the best job possible. And I think the action, and I'll echo what Bob said, when you're culturally and linguistically different than the states that you're operating in which America is when we go into that area you need a whole lot of help from other people. Not only other westerners from Europe, but also the gulf cooperation conferences. And as I said before, you need some moderate Islamic imams to start coming into the picture on this and demanding that this organization stop bastardizing the Islamic religion. LEMON: Bob, you care to comment on Rand Paul's op-ed?

BAER: He is wrong. Look, our military wins wars. They're not peacekeepers. We can't go in and separate the Shia and the Sunni. And this is really what it's all about, a sectarian war. And you know, this president didn't create this mess. The previous administration did. And putting a lid back on this, I'm not sure how to do it. I spent my adult life in the Middle East, and I've never seen it in a bigger mess. And I see no obvious solutions. And you have to play it day by day there is no strategy to be had, an easy one.

LEMON: You know, James, I heard someone say earlier that ISIS possibly the most successful terrorist organization in history. They have taken a lot of territory. They're growing. They have weaponry, and they also have a lot of money. Where does that money come from?

GELVIN: Well, the money comes from a variety of sources. Much of it is generated internally. I mean, the reason why they have taken the territory that they have is that it's sparsely populated on the one hand. But on the other hand, this is the oil territory of Syria. They get their money through hijacks. They get their money through so-called taxation, which is really a protection racket. They get their money through smuggling and they get their money from private sources from the Gulf as well. So they're not lacking for funds.

LEMON: Do you expect to see air strikes in Syria? First to you, James.

GELVIN: That's a difficult question. I think that probably will happen. But as Yogi Berra once said, predictions are difficult, particularly about the future.

LEMON: Bob?

BAER: I think we're going to be forced to. I think that ISIS may have some staying power. There is so much money coming in from the Gulf, and there is such a mess with this government in Baghdad, which the Sunnis have told me they will not accept it. It's the same as Maliki. It is the same guy. They won't come back as is. Until this sorts out, you see a lot of Sunni support for these guys. And yet they're going to be killing people. A lot of people, massacring people. And I don't see how we can sit by the sidelines and watch it. We have to go over after the capital, Raqqa.

LEMON: General?

HERTLING: Yes, I disagree a little bit. A lot of the Sunni friends that I have still in northern Iraq are telling me that there is already starting to be a movement against ISIS in that area. They're already starting to see a more -- a bigger resolve on the part of a government that is becoming less and less sectarian. And I think you're going to see the moderate Sunnis in that area start to come back to the government. Because just like the Al Qaeda operations there, there is going to be another awakening. They're going to say we can't put up this w this kind of religious extremism. So back to your original questions, will there be air strikes? I

think this is going to be a lot of aerial reconnaissance in the next few days and possibly weeks. There may be strikes in the area. But it's not going to be directly against forces in Syria that would support any kind of operations, at least in the short-term. It may happen eventually, but not any time soon.

LEMON: Gentlemen, thank you.

Texas Governor Rick Perry facing a felony indictment. What you think would worry him, but he is apparently so unworried that he is considering another run for the White House. CNN investigates what is really behind the charges against him. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back.

Texas governor Rick Perry is strongly hinting that he may run for the Republican presidential nomination in 2016. He of course ran in 2012, but lost out to Mitt Romney. But there is one little hitch. He is facing a felony indictment in his home state.

CNN's senior investigative correspondent Drew Griffin has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The mug shot so far tell it all. One, a disheveled drunken Texas prosecutor, the other a smiling Texas governor. Two characters in a bitter political feud that reached a boiling point one April night last year. The drunk woman was swerving in and out of bike lanes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm with Travis County sheriff's department.

GRIFFIN: Police pulled her over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you been drinking tonight?

ROSEMARY LEHMBERG, TRAVIS COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I had a couple drinks.

GRIFFIN: Took one whiff, and realized it was time to do a field sobriety test.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From this position.

LEHMBERG: I can't do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm trying to demonstrate.

GRIFFIN: What they also soon realized.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm 90 percent sure that's her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're kidding me? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's our district attorney.

GRIFFIN: Was the suspected drunk was none other than the Travis County district attorney, a very belligerent Rosemary Lehmberg.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One thousand and three, one thousand and four.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma'am, he is trying to keep you from tripping over. You don't need to slap his hands away.

GRIFFIN: The county's top prosecutor was really drunk, failed to walk the line.

LEHMBERG: But I have a bad back, and it hurts, and I'm fine. Leave me alone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're falling backwards. We don't want you the fall over.

LEHMBERG: I'm not going to fall.

GRIFFIN: Had a blood alcohol level almost three times the legal limit, and verbally assaulted, even threatened the arresting officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop.

LEHMBERG: You stop. Think I'm going to hurt you?

GRIFFIN: Jailers strapped her down in a chair and put a spit hood on her.

LEHMBERG: Take this stupid thing off my head.

GRIFFIN: Former Travis county assistant district attorney Rick Reed, along with many others saw this video.

LEHMBERG: Give me my phone!

GRIFFIN: And demanded his former boss step down.

LEHMBERG: No. I'm not drunk. You all have just ruin my career.

RICK REED, FORMER TRAVIS COUNTY ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: She attempted to bully these sheriff's deputies into either releasing her or calling the sheriff himself so that she could avoid these charges. An abuse of power, unquestionable.

GRIFFIN: Governor Rick Perry insisted Lehmberg step down too. It was so embarrassing. But Rosemary Lehmberg, a powerful Texas Democrat is still in office.

GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: I'm going enter this courthouse with my head held Hawaii eye.

GRIFFIN: And in a twist of political fate, it is now Republican Governor Rick Perry who has just been indicted related to the Lehmberg case. Mike McCrum was the special prosecutor.

MIKE MCCRUM, SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: Count one of the indictment charges him with abuse of official capacity, a first-degree felony, and count two of the indictment charges him with coercion of a public servant, a third-degree felony.

GRIFFIN: Here show it happened. Lehmberg is perhaps the most powerful democrat in the state of Texas, and a long-time thorn in the side of Texas Republicans. Her district attorney's office runs the state's office of public integrity, which ironically investigates wrongdoing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn your whole body.

GRIFFIN: By state officials. When she got drunk, Perry saw his chance to get rid of her, threatening to veto funds for the office of public integrity unless Lehmberg stepped down. Texan Republic Justice, Hoover liberal watch dog Democrat filed a complaint alleging that governor's threat is illegal.

Your complaint is basically based on the fact the that he threatened or fire or get rid of or co-herself her to leave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's exactly right. Our complaint was about the threat. It wasn't about the veto.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The honorable Rick Perry, governor of the state of Texas.

GRIFFIN: Because that's because under the law the governor of take has the right to veto anything he wants. But McDonnell says the governor does not have the right to use the threat of a veto to get anything he wants.

But let me understand this from a layman's perfect. We got this drunk lady who is the head of a public integrity prosecution unit who is doing her own threats. And the governor wants to get rid of her, and she won't leave. He says I'm going to exercise my constitutional authority to veto this legislation unless you step down or resign. What is wrong with that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has constitutional authority to veto anything. But he doesn't have the authority to threaten a person who doesn't work under his control.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: In most criminal cases you say well, let's see how the jury decides. In this case, everyone's first question is forget the jury. Is this a crime at all?

GRIFFIN: CNN's analyst and former prosecutor Jeff Toobin and many others question the indictment.

TOOBIN: The governor has the power to veto this money. So the question is how can it be a crime to threaten to use a power that is entirely within the powers of your office?

PERRY: I refer to Travis County as the blueberry in the tomato soup, if you know what I mean.

GRIFFIN: Perry's colorful explanation of what happened is all about politics.

Travis county and its county seat, the self-proclaimed weird city of Austin, is all blue in the middle of a very red state. And the grand jury pool here reflects a democratic slant.

A CNN analysis found some grand jury members openly Democratic and openly liberal. Others are cautious about political affiliation. None of them we found you would consider to be strongly Republican.

Grand jurors we talked to say the indictment was not political, and the special prosecutor laid out a convincing case. One did admit the vote was not unanimous. Perry's defense lawyer says the indictment is nothing more than Banana Republic politics and has asked a judge to dismiss the case. Legal experts say unless there is evidence of an actual crime, that indictment will likely be thrown out into the hot Texas wind.

Drew Griffin, CNN, Austin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Well, tomorrow we're going to talk live with another rising star in the Republican party and that is Wisconsin governor Scott Walker, who beat back a recall attempt two years ago. But now he is facing some struggles in his reelection campaign. He is going to be with me here tomorrow night on this program.

Also, senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York who admits to struggling with her weight says Senate colleagues have made inappropriate remarks to her. We're going to talk than just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back.

The story everyone is still talking about tonight, the 9-year-old girl who accidentally shot and killed her instructor at a gun range. So should a child ever have an Uzi in her hands?

Joining me now Mel Robbins, a CNN commentator and legal analyst, Marc Lamont Hill, CNN political commentator and Ben Ferguson, CNN political commentator and the host of the Ben Ferguson show.

Mel, to you first. Let's talk about this horrible accident with a 9- year-old and an Uzi. The bottom line is does a 9-year-old child -- should a 9-year-old child be shooting an Uzi under any circumstances?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR, LEGAL ANALYST: You know, Don, it's absolutely absurd that we're even having this conversation. The answer of course is no. This is a fully automatic weapon that has been designed by the Israeli military for somebody that is in a war situation, not a fourth grader that is on vacation.

Look, I'm pro-gun. But stick a 22 in the hands of a 9-year-old under a supervised condition, not a freaking Uzi. This is ridiculous.

LEMON: Who is laughing? Who is it? Is it Marc?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's amazing that giving a 9-year-old the 22 is the more reasonable and mature and responsible approach.

ROBBINS: Of course it is. Of course it is.

HILL: Of course giving a 22 is more responsible than an Uzi, but it's all relative. My point is the idea of --

ROBBINS: No it's not.

HILL: It is relative. What I'm saying is that giving a kid a candy bar is even less dangerous than giving him a .22 which is considerably less dangerous than giving him or her an Uzi. We're on the same page.

ROBBINS: Not really. Because sugar is more addictive than heroin.

HILL: Touche. Allow me to agree with you on this point. Let us agree tonight. My point is that this was a grossly irresponsible move. A 12-year-old or a 15-year-old can't handle an Uzi, much less a 9-year-old based on body weight, based common sense. The inspector apparently, according to experts, didn't follow direction. This needs a bigger conversation. I'm not anti-gun. I'm not anti-second amendment. But this is too far.

LEMON: Yes. It's funny. When you talk about a conversation many people assume that you're anti-second amendment. But Ben, the question is it has nothing to do with the second amendment. This is about safety. This is about common sense. I mean, t is possible there is something we can agree upon in this country when it comes to what age a child should be, you know, using a gun?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think this has to do with supervision more than anything else. This could have happened to anybody if they were nervous and they don't know what is going on. You should never put a fully automatic weapon in the hands of anyone who is not comfortable with it and is nervous or has never shot one before. I mean, this instructor broke so many rules.

First of all, you never stand beside someone when they're shooting. You stand behind them. He should have never loaded that magazine with that many bullets, because everyone knows that a fully automatic weapon is going to rise on you. And in the hands of anybody that is not comfortable, it is going to get away from them.

It's not a toy. I think that's a very important point to make. And I also want to make something else very clear tonight. This is not this young girl's fault. And everyone in America should be letting her know, and I hope she gets the help that she is going to need from this.

LEMON: Yes. FERGUSON: But this is absolutely not her fault at all. This was an

accident. I hope that she understands that, because I think the real tragedy here is yes, he died. But the fact that this young girl is going to believe, I'm sure at some point she is responsible for his death. And it's not her fault. And I think that's important.

LEMON: You're echoing exactly what we were talking about on the break. Everyone is talking about, you know, the adult, the instructor, and of course it's sad the instructor died. But I said can you imagine being this 9-year-old girl.

FERGUSON: Absolutely.

LEMON: We need to move on now just for time purposes.

Marc, I want to talk about police in Fournier, Texas has apologized to a mother and her four young children after she was mistakenly pulled over at gunpoint, handcuffed. It was earlier this month. The police say the mistake happened because even though the car was a totally different make and model and color, her car pulled off the exit they had been told that the suspect's car was headed. So let's hear what happens when the police finally realize their mistake and then we'll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything is fine now. Everything is fine. Now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything is fine now, OK? We're fine. OK. We're fine. Nothing is going to happen. Everything is going to be fine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a big misunderstanding. Everything is going to be fine, OK? Everything is fine, and y'all be on your way, all right?

LEMON: Everything is fine, all right, all right. Don't be mad at us. Don't sue us. Listen, I'm up against a heartbreak. But if I can get a response from everyone. Marc, you know, was it -- should they have apologize in order, and what did you make of their response?

HILL: Of course they should have apologized. But I don't like the idea of saying don't be too mad, or don't make a big deal about it which gives me the subsequent of what they are saying. This is the bigger problem with policing in this country, whether you're black, white, male or female, this happens.

LEMON: All right. Mel?

ROBBINS: I agree with Marcus. That's twice in one night. I think that's a record high.

LEMON: Ben Ferguson?

FERGUSON: Hey, when you screw up, apologize often and as a loud as you possibly can. So at least they got that part right, you know?

LEMON: Listen, I don't understand how they mixed up a dark minivan for a blue maxima -- I mean, for a burgundy maxima?

HILL: For the same reason, don, that police mix you and me up on a dark street. We don't look nothing alike.

LEMON: It doesn't take a dark street for me to call you, you know, they'll call me other colleagues. I'm not Marc Lamont Hill. I'm just the other person of color on CNN. OK, everyone. Thank you. I think we've had enough. OK.

OK. We'll talk to you after the break. We'll be right back.

LEMON: Welcome back.

Clothing retailer Zara is in hot water tonight over a shirt for children that looks like an awful lot like a holocaust prisoner's uniform. So back with me now to weigh in on this is Mel Robbins, Marc Lamont Hill, and Ben Ferguson.

Ben, I want you to take a look at this shirt from a clothing line Zara has said it is very sorry for selling a children's t-shirt that looks awfully a lot like a Jewish -- the uniform that Jews wore in Nazi concentration camps. It's a major European clothing company. I mean, how could it make something this offensive? How could it make this mistake?

FERGUSON: I think they need to have a political correctness group. It actually looks at all their clothes from now on to make sure they don't do another screw-up like this in the future. I mean, when you see this, there is a part of you that just says seriously, who is working for you? How in the world could this possibly get past all of you there to not realize that this looks like something absolutely terrible. I mean, they have apologized, but like you might want to hire some more diversity. I'm just saying.

LEMON: And it's children's. It makes it awful. It's not the first time Zara has been accused of selling something that is anti-Semitic. It was back in 2007. They were forced to remove a handbag with swastikas on it. We reached out to Zara for a comment.

FERGUSON: You may not get one.

LEMON: Really?

FERGUSON: You may not get one. You got to wonder a little bit, did somebody slide this in there as a way with all the news going on right now and see if they can get away with it, and they got busted. You hate to think that. But when you see it, there is a part of me that says, really? Do you think the world is going to be this stupid to not notice it, that you're selling it?

ROBBINS: You know what, Ben, let's be honest. They don't have anybody under the age of 30 working for them in terms of clothing designing and marketing and social media. So they're not old enough to understand what they just designed. So I don't think anybody slipped anything by. I think it's a really young workforce that didn't understand what the older folks that are here on CNN, sorry, guys, would interpret.

LEMON: She is talking about Ben.

ROBBINS: Not Don, not Don. The rest of y'all and myself.

FERGUSON: We're so old here, right?

LEMON: I know. I have to say the first time I ever benefited about my age is when somebody called me a middle aged man on national television. What? I'm young! And one of my friends said did you just call yourself a young black man on television? We hate to tell you. You're not a young black man anymore. You're a middle aged black man.

OK. Marc, so listen. We put this to our viewers on twitter, and we got a great question from Virginia. And she asks this. How could anyone who ever had high school history not know what that represented? And we got this from Holly. It's supposed to be a sheriff's badge, which is exactly what I saw and thought of when I first saw the shirt. People are just way too nitpicky these days and seem to literally enjoy inventing problems and finding an issue where there just isn't one. And then for the record, Zara did quickly apologize and they pulled the t-shirt from their stores. So anyway, that's the apology. They sent out a tweet. Do you agree with this, you know? We're looking for too much?

HILL: Make an interesting point. Many people doing design, many of the people who work there probably didn't know. And Americans in general don't have a sense of history. So I can completely imagine the circumstance under which they just didn't know. But that's why you have a diverse workforce. Ben, yes. Ben asked the question who works for them. The question is really, who doesn't work for them. Because if you show this to enough people, you tested this, you realized this brings back memory. This brings back trauma and this is an offensive thing. That brings back a deep legacy of anti-Semitism, an anti-Jewish action.

FERGUSON: And the timing of it. I mean, the timing of it, everything going on right now and for the last couple of months with Israel and Gaza and Hamas and everything the Palestinians, the timing of it obviously is horrible. And that also makes you wonder, you know, did somebody maybe think let's see if we can try to have a little, you know, jab in this direction.

ROBBINS: No.

HILL: I don't think that's it. I don't think that's the point.

ROBBINS: Come on, Ben. No.

HILL: That isn't the point, though. You don't have to have an intention necessarily for it to be wrong. Sometimes it's indifference to the suffering of others that's the problem. Lots of people aren't racist. They just don't think about the ways things can offer racial wounds. Lots of people don't deliberately hate Jews, but they do thing anti-Semitic by not thinking about it..

LEMON: Let's talk about possible homophobia. ESPN apologized for a segment on Michael Sam's showering habits.

FERGUSON: Can I just jump in and say this, I don't want to know about the showering habits of anybody that is playing pro sports. I don't care if you're straight. I don't care if you're gay. I want to know about the stats. Did you sack somebody? Did you catch a ball. The fact that ESPN, though.

LEMON: A straight player showering habits. Do you?

FERGUSON: That's the point, though. I don't want to hear about any straight guy or any gay guy that is out there showering on ESPN.

LEMON: Mel?

ROBBINS: I do. I want to hear about. I do want to hear about guys showering.

LEMON: Lord have mercy.

ROBBINS: Way more interesting than what is happening on the field. But this was completely un-freaking-believable, that they let this go on. Not for one question, Don, but for over two minutes for crying out loud.

LEMON: I'm going to save you Marc. I'm not going to let you comment. We'll be right back.

HILL: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you, guys.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)\

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

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I grew up in New York City, which is an island surrounded by water, but I wasn't a boater at all.

I ended up volunteering at a junior high school in east Harlem. We built an eight-foot dingy. I benefited as well as the students. That experience inspired me to create this organization.

You know a good trick for that? You just drop this on.

Our kids come from the south Bronx, one of the poorest places in the country. Their block is all they have ever known. Kids learn how to build boats. They are sailing. They are rowing.

They are restoring the river.

We open kids up to new possibilities, really, they become someone they would never be able to otherwise.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pretty awesome.

END

LEMON: And if you know someone who deserve this recognition, go to CNNheroes.com now and tell us all about them.

That's it for us tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for joining us. I will see you back tomorrow night.