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CNN NEWSROOM

Russia Invasion; Obama Meeting on ISIS; Joan Rivers in Hospital; Police Preparation

Aired August 28, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. Thank you so much for joining me here on this Thursday.

From photo op to full-scale invasion. Just two days after Russia's Vladimir Putin is seen shaking hands with the president of Ukraine, here you go, Russia is now, according to intelligence, attacking Ukraine. And a Ukrainian deputy commander calls it, quote/unquote, "a full-scale invasion."

There's the map for you. This is what we've been watching. Right now, I should also tell you that here in New York, the United Nations is holding an emergency meeting about the crisis, which appears to have worsened since Russia began to take over Ukraine's Crimea region, that was back in the spring. So as we walk through this story together, just a warning for you, some of these pictures are pretty tough to look at but it tells the story of what is happening on the ground.

You have other images from satellite showing Russian artillery in formation inside the Ukraine. We've got these pictures from NATO. And it's not just Russian weapons. We've seen that before here. This time as many as 1,000 Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine according to one U.S. official.

As far as Russia, what is Russia's official response? Denial. Denial. Moscow saying it is not supporting or arming those rebels in Ukraine. And that worries the U.S. even further. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESWOMAN: I'll also note that we are - and I'm not sure many of you have seen this - but we're also concerned by the Russian government's unwillingness to tell the truth, even as its soldiers are found 30 miles inside Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now, Ben Judah, author of this book, "Fragile Empire: How Russia Fell in and Out of Love with Vladimir Putin."

Ben, welcome back.

BEN JUDAH, AUTHOR, "FRAGILE EMPIRE": Thank you.

BALDWIN: So let's just begin with -- you used the "w" word, war. Is that how you see this invasion? JUDAH: Yes. Russia and Ukraine have been fighting a new type of war

now for almost two, three months. It's a hybrid war. It's not declared formally. It's a Russian-controlled stealth invasion in which a combination of mercenaries, para troopers, special operatives, and the forces of warlords from the north caucuses are battling the Ukrainian army, which has, of course, been heavily supported by the west.

Why is Putin doing this?

BALDWIN: Right. Why?

JUDAH: Why is Putin now moving to send full-on reinforcements into Ukraine? And the answer is, is that Putin is trapped by his own propaganda. Vladimir Putin created this monster, which people are very fond of in Russia because he controls Russian TV, and he controls what goes on Russian TV, of Nazi Ukraine. Every day on television, for 12 hours a day, Russians have been told that Ukraine is now run by the Nazis. That there -- a third of the shops in Kiev are abandoned.

BALDWIN: Why can't he just stop, Ben? Why can't he stop: Heaven forbid Vladimir Putin would say I'm wrong and cease what he began there in Ukraine? But what's wrong with that?

JUDAH: Because, Nazi Ukraine, as Putin has framed it for the Russian people, was starting to win. And it looked like Putin's rebels were going to lose Donetsk and Luhansk. Now Vladimir Putin can't lose those two cities to the Nazi party, can he? So that's why he has to react. He's trapped by propaganda. If the Ukrainians would take these areas, the Nazis would take the areas in front of the Russian public.

BALDWIN: So then to go along with that Russian narrative, if he sees Ukraine as Nazi Ukraine, then why is he out then. Why is he out with all the cameras for him to see shaking the Ukrainian president, Poroshenko's hand, just a couple of days ago? I mean you've written a book on this man. You and I have talked before about, you know, Putin's alone time and swimming and what he likes to eat. I mean take me inside his brain as best as you can. What's the strategy behind the photo?

JUDAH: That's not on Russian TV. You know, the sight -- the photos that we saw in the west are not the photos that the Russian public is seeing. Russia has a classic, authoritarian, almost dictatorial control of the television than normal people see at home. And they're not seeing those images. The images they're seeing are of kind of evil, murderous, Ukrainian forces advancing.

Why is he doing this? Why has Putin created this enemy? Why has Putin created this war? It's all about survival, which is Vladimir Putin knows that if he ever loses his grip, he risks going to prison because all the money that's been stolen, all the wars that have happened, all the human rights abuses that have been committed and, therefore, he needs to stay relevant, he needs to stay feared, he needs to stay loved, he needs to stay adored. And in order to do that, Putin has gone back to that old trick, which is a short successful war used by politicians for time immemorial in national politics. BALDWIN: So, Ben, is there no real long-term goal if he just wants to

continue, you know, injecting this fear in the Russian populous, those who at least believe and believe the conspiracies that are pervasive on Russian television because we've seen the stop, start, stop, start. I mean is that all this is about for him, stopping and starting and nothing bigger in the end?

JUDAH: Well, the propaganda started to take a life of its own. The propaganda's become bigger. It's become a trap for Putin. Having frightened the Russian population in order to stay in power, having terrified them of the prospects of a Nazi Ukraine. He now finds himself compelled to support this rebellion, even at the cost of a full collapse in relations with the west or even a full-scale war. Otherwise, he looks weak in front of the Russian public.

The frightening thing is that Ukraine is also trapped by its own propaganda. Mr. Poroshenko came to power promising no negotiations, victory from (INAUDIBLE) to liberate Donetsk in the hands (ph) (INAUDIBLE) in time for Ukraine's national day, and that was a few weeks ago now. So both the parties are stopped. They can't give up. If Poroshenko gives up, he loses. He falls. If Putin gives up, he's severely damaged in the eyes of the Russian public. So it doesn't look like there's going to be a very -- it doesn't really look like there's much of a way out right now for Russia or Ukraine in this increasingly escalating war in the lands between them.

BALDWIN: Sounds like a bit of a stalemate that each is -- each country has trapped itself. Ben Judah, come back, because we'll be watching what happens with these troops now in Ukraine. Ben the author of "Fragile Empire: How Russia Fell In and Out of Love with Vladimir Putin.

Thank you, sir.

JUDAH: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And now to this. The terrorist army ISIS is once again flaunting its uncompromising brutality. A group that beheaded American James Foley, then took it upon itself to release the gristly images of Foley's final moments. Well now they claim they have executed 250 Syrians. So what you're looking at here is the gruesome death march of Syrian soldiers purportedly taken, this film, just yesterday at a military base, whose capture by ISIS was another worrisome victory for those doomsday terrorists.

You'll catch a glimpse in a moment of a black clad ISIS fighter right there. That's one of the group's trademarks. A quick warning, this is about to get worse. You will see those stripped-down Syrians, quite possibly well aware that these are their final moments.

And here it comes, here you are, 250 dead Syrian soldiers. Their bodies, one next to the other, lined up, after their brutal execution by the terrorist army ISIS. The people, as you'll see in a moment, as the camera pans up, standing next to the bodies, do not appear to be ISIS fighters. And that the event was most likely shot after ISIS had left the scene. Let's be clear, CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of these photos and these videos.

I want you also to remember, ISIS isn't merely barbaric. The group's surprising strength has allowed it to either capture or contest large chunks of both Iraq and Syria. The group has declared a state, even a capital, the city of Raqqa in northern Syria. So here's the other big part of the story today. President Obama is to convene his national security team just a little less than two hours from now, 4:00 Eastern Time. And that is amid reports he wants military options for ISIS pretty much right now.

Josh Rogin joins me now from Washington, is reporting on this story in "The Daily Beast." Has been way, way out front. He's also a CNN political analyst.

Josh, welcome back.

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Let's just - let's just get right to it. What are you hearing out of the White House and the Pentagon?

ROGIN: Right. So for the last few days, after the killing of James Foley and ISIS' continued brutality and expansion in Syria and Iraq, the president ordered the entire national security bureaucracy to come up with a set of options for expanding his air war in Iraq into Syria without a lot of clear guidance on exactly what he wanted to do, how far he wanted to go, what the mission objectives were and whether or not we would work with the people in Syria on the ground who are already fighting ISIS, namely the Free Syrian Army. So for many days now all of my sources in the State Department, Defense Department, intelligence community have been battling with each other, frankly, over how it is that we go about striking Syria after three and a half years of what most would call a neglect of the Syrian civil war by the U.S. government and now they're going to have to make some decisions. And there's this sort of this rush to act without a clear understanding of what the intelligence is, what the mission objectives will be, and what the reactions will be, not just by people on the ground in Syria, but the Assad regime, the regional powers, ISIS itself.

So it's clear that they want to do something. It's not clear what they want to do. And, in the end, there's only really one person's vote who counts. That's President Obama himself. That's why this meeting today is so important because it will be the chance for him personally to sit around with all the people at the table and find out what exactly his options are.

BALDWIN: So let me just quote from your piece today, Josh. You write, "ISIS' murder of James Foley, and its continued military expansion, have pushed the administration into an urgent drive to takes action against the Islamist extremist in Syria." So, I had Chris Dickey (ph) on the show yesterday. I asked him about this sudden sense of urgency. He was sitting right here next to me. This is what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHRIS DICKEY: What's Obama's first challenge here? It isn't really what to do about ISIS? It's what to do about the American public. The American people don't want to go to war in the Middle East anymore. Not at all. So then you have an American journalist decapitated in this horrific film. That, in a sense, gives Obama what he needs to push things forward against ISIS. Even if we're not very well prepared, even if we don't know exactly what we want to do, we do know that ISIS is presenting a bigger and bigger problem, not only in the region but potentially here at home in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So you heard Chris say, right, that the Foley execution, horrible as it was, in his words gives Obama what he needs to push things forward against ISIS. I mean do you think, Josh, there is some truth to that analysis?

ROGIN: Of course. The bottom line here is the Obama administration has long said, both in public and private, that one of the reasons they don't want to intervene in Syria is because the American people don't want them to. Now the James Foley execution, as horrible as it was, does not change the basic facts on the ground, which is that ISIS is expanding and is a threat to the homeland. And that's the real reason.

BALDWIN: And has been for months and months. Let's remember, we've been covering this for months and months here.

ROGIN: Exactly. And you have - and as you notice, President Obama hasn't struck inside Syria yet. Even while he's striking ISIS in Iraq, he's always -- the administration has always had this sort of arbitrary line between crossing the border into Syria, a border that, for all intents and purposes, doesn't even exist.

BALDWIN: Right. It's pretty (INAUDIBLE).

ROGIN: So now they're going to cross that border because they feel -- in part because of the Foley execution, but also because now everyone you ask will say that ISIS is a threat to the homeland now, including our military leaders. Those two things combined have changed the politics of intervening in Syria, but they haven't changed President Obama's basic belief that the Syrian revolution is a fantasy, as he told "The New York Times," that the Syrian rebels do not have a chance to win. So he is inclined to attack Syria without solving the Syria problem. It's more for him about ISIS than it is about Syria. But there are a lot of people in the government who disagree with the president. Unfortunately, they're not winning the day. So it's likely that he will attack Syria without actually solving the problem of Syria, which could make it worse, it could make it better, we just don't know.

BALDWIN: Meeting happens in less than two hours, national security team and the president there at the White House. We know you'll be watching and talking to your sources. Josh Rogin, thank you so, so much.

ROGIN: Any time. BALDWIN: Just ahead, shoot or don't shoot? That's the split-second decision police officers face each and every day, including the deadly decision made in Ferguson, Missouri. CNN goes inside, how law enforcement trains them to make that kind of call.

Plus, more on our breaking news. Joan Rivers rushed to the hospital after she stopped breathing during some kind of surgery. Much more on her condition, what we know at this moment, next here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)(

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Let's talk about what we know about legendary comedian and TV star Joan Rivers. She is in critical condition at a New York area hospital. So, Alexandra Field has been following this one for us here. And so, from what we know, let's just begin with the surgery. You're hearing throat surgery?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it happened just this morning. She was having some kind of throat surgery.

BALDWIN: OK.

FIELD: What we understand from a source is that the 81-year-old stopped breathing at some point, was rushed in critical condition to Mount Sinai Hospital where she is right now. The hospital has actually just put out a statement saying that her family wants to thank everybody for their out pouring of love and support. They're also saying that they will provide an update on her condition when that becomes available.

What we do know right now about her condition, Brooke, comes from one of her colleagues at the E! Network, that's Ken Baker, and he tweeted out just a little while ago, "our own lovely living legend, Joan Rivers, is in stable condition at Mount Sinai Hospital." So that seems like a little piece of good news there.

BALDWIN: Good.

FIELD: A lot of people responding to this report this morning, obviously. Just an outpouring of support for Joan Rivers. Andy Cohen, from the Bravo Network -

BALDWIN: Uh-huh.

FIELD: He also, of course, tweeted right away to his friend, "all good thoughts and prayers to Joan Rivers." You know, Brooke, so many people know Joan Rivers. Her work is just -

BALDWIN: She's been on this show. She's hilarious.

FIELD: Yes. It's spanned decades.

BALDWIN: Yes.

FIELD: And she's got this sort of new audience, this young generation that watches her on E!.

BALDWIN: Yes.

FIELD: She was on just this week on "Fashion Police" doing a 90-minute special, sort of breaking down all the Emmy and VMA fashions. Had a lot of us laughing.

BALDWIN: (INAUDIBLE).

FIELD: Yes, we've got a little bit of it for you right here.

BALDWIN: Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOAN RIVERS: I love the color of the shoe. And the legs go on and on and on and on. Like Gwyneth Paltrow when someone asks her about kale (ph). I mean it's --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FIELD: "Fashion Police." It's been a big hit for that network. She calls her fans the "Joan Rangers." A lot of young people know Joan Rivers from her "Live From the Red Carpet" specials that she did for so many years.

BALDWIN: Yes, of course.

FIELD: But, you know, her career goes so far back. People first got to know her when she was a frequent guest for Johnny Carson. The first woman to host her own late night comedy show. So just a woman who has had fans, you know, through the ages. A lot of them pulling for her right now. Right now she stars on the reality show with her daughter, Melissa Rivers, and there have been reports today that Melissa has rushed to Mount Sinai to be with her mother this morning.

BALDWIN: Of course. I would too with my own mom. Well, we wish her well. We wish her very well. Alexandra, thank you so much for the update on Joan Rivers.

Just ahead here on CNN, we have to talk about this American mother who is waiting to hear how ISIS terrorists will respond to her emotional video plea to return her son. We'll talk actually with a ransom negotiator about how he bargains with hostage takers and how often those hostages come home alive.

Plus, CNN goes inside a police training center. Four officers who are forced to make those split second decisions about whether to pull the trigger on any given suspect. It's a fascinating piece. Don't miss this, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Much remains in dispute when it comes to what exactly happened those moments before an unarmed black teenager was shot and killed by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri, about two weeks ago now. But one thing this grand jury will have to decide is whether or not Officer Darren Wilson was justified in his use of force. An investigation is underway and a grand jury comprised of three African-Americans and nine white people hearing testimony. Ferguson's police chief said they were already taking steps to repair its image. And part of that is training more officers for life or death confrontations.

So our correspondent, Gary Tuchman, he went inside one of these one of a kind labs where the soul focus is research on police confrontations. And he found out which suspects police find more threatening than others.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This Spokane, Washington, police officer is getting wired, so his brain and body functions can be monitored as he gets ready to make life or death decisions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spokane Police. Police department. Hey! Hey! Talk to me. Talk to me. Let go of her.

TUCHMAN: Decisions in a most unique laboratory.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing? Hey, let me -

TUCHMAN: Corporal Jordan Ferguson (ph) is one of many police officers, military members and civilians who have volunteered time in this violence confrontation lab, complete with frightening like (ph) realistic actors on a huge virtual reality screen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You receive a call from a person who says their convenience store is being robbed. Do you understand?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand by.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey! Hey! Back up! Back up! Back up! Put your hands up! Put your hands up! Drop the knife right now! Drop it!

TUCHMAN: While the volunteers make split-second decision, brain waves and heart rates are checked. It's all part of an ambitious research project at Washington State University, partly funded by the Defense Department, with the goal of improving justice in America.

Professor Bryan Vila is the man in charge.

BRYAN VILA, WASHINGTON STATE UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR: We don't know yet, still, 100 and some years since Teddy Roosevelt had the first police firearms training in New York, we still don't know whether there's a connection between the training we give police officers and their performance in a combat situation.

TUCHMAN: Sergeant Terry Preuninger (ph) is told he has pulled over a stolen car. SGT. TERRY PREUNINGER, SPOKANE POLICE: Hey, sir, can I see your

driver's license or vehicle registration and your proof of insurance, please?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want my driver's license?

PREUNINGER: I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, you guys. Hey -

TUCHMAN: The researchers say these volunteers hearts are generally racing because it's all so realistic. Many findings from the study will be released by the end of the year. But some have already been published. The researchers declaring that volunteers of all races often view African-American suspects as more threatening than white suspects, but that they may have subconsciously overcompensated because of that bias.

VILA: The surprise was that they were more restrained in shooting African-Americans than they were whites.

PREUNINGER: Police officer, let me see your hands. You at the counter, let me see your hands. Don't move. Stop! Stop!

TUCHMAN: The officer never knew if the man had a gun but did not shoot.

PREUNINGER: Sometimes we don't know if we made the right decision or the wrong decision. We make a decision and then we live with it for the rest of our lives.

TUCHMAN: Novices are also used as volunteers. So with the cops guiding me, I pull over a suspicious car with a broken tail light.

TUCHMAN (on camera): Hello there, sir. Your tail light's broken. Do you know that?

All right, sir, sir, take your hands out of your pocket. Sir, sir, take your hands out of your pockets. Sir, sir, put your hands on the steering wheel. Sir, sir, you're not listening, hands on the -- OK. Thank you. Yes, that guy looked like he was getting a gun out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Uh-huh.

TUCHMAN: So I took the gun out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

TUCHMAN: Didn't point it at him. Proper way to deal with it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, stop! Stop!

TUCHMAN: There is a lot more to learn as these researchers try to make life safer for citizens and for the cops who serve them. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Spokane, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Gary, thank you so much for taking us inside of one of those labs.

Happening live, the U.N. Security Council is holding an emergency meeting as I speak on what Ukraine calls this full-scale invasion by Russia. Christiane Amanpour will join me live.

Plus, as the president of the United States is considering strikes inside of Syria against bloodthirsty terrorists, Rand Paul, a potential Republican presidential candidate, not only calls Hillary Clinton a war hawk, but goes against his own party on military action. We'll discuss that as we await a meeting between President Obama and his national security team very, very shortly. Stay right here. You're watching CNN.

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