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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Obama Confronts ISIS & Moscow; Horror of ISIS; Vice President Issues Strong Words Against ISIS

Aired September 3, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: More beheadings, more mass killings, more suicide bombings prompting President Obama to order hundreds more U.S. troops to Baghdad. Their stated mission, for now, protecting the U.S. embassy and American personnel.

Also ahead, what does ISIS hope to gain by broadcasting beheadings around the world? Will one man with a knife lure many more to their twisted ranks? How does this ancient and savage form of execution still have a place in a civilized world?

And how did so much hatred and evil become such an effective propaganda tool in the hands of terrorists? We'll ask a former jihadist to sort it all out for us ahead this hour.

Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

ISIS isn't the only adversary in President Obama's sights today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is a brazen assault on the territorial integrity of Ukraine, a sovereign and independent European nation. It challenges that most basic of principles of our international system that borders cannot be redrawn at the barrel of a gun, that nations have the right to determine their own future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The president was attacking Russia's de facto war on Ukraine on Russia's own doorstep. As you may have seen live here on CNN, the president delivered a fervent defense of western ideals in NATO member state Estonia, which itself fears military adventurism by its neighbor to the east. At the moment, Mr. Obama is on his way to a NATO Summit in Wales where Ukraine will top the agenda. We've also just learned from Kiev that U.S. and other friendly troops are planning to hold 10 days of military exercises in Ukraine. And that's set to begin on September 16th.

In the meantime, in Estonia, President Obama had even tougher words, much tougher words, for the jihadi butchers known as ISIS, or as they like to be called, Islamic State. They said the U.S. objective is clear, degrade and destroy. In Iraq, at least, he said more than 120 U.S. air strikes in less than a month have, quote, "blunted the ISIS momentum." But so much is still unresolved. So much is still at stake, too. And so I turn to my brilliant colleague, Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS."

I'd like to begin, if I can, with you, with Ukraine and this most recent announcement that war games are set to begin on Ukrainian soil in just a couple of weeks. That can't be a coincidence.

FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, CNN'S "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": Oh, no. It's the west and Obama are trying to find ways to reassure Ukraine, to reassure Poland, the Baltic republics, and at the same time send a signal to Russia without committing the west to the defense of Ukraine because, remember, Ukraine is very close to Russia and the Russians spend about 20 times as much on defense as Ukraine does. So, you know --

BANFIELD: This is not a war you want to get into either (ph).

ZAKARIA: This is not a war you want to get into, but you do want to give them support, give them moral support, symbolic support, and that's what this is all about.

BANFIELD: I heard a prominent Russian journalist the other day say that any kinds of boots on the ground in any neighbor state, these NATO states that are along its western border, is tantamount to an act of aggression, almost an act of war, in Vladimir Putin's eyes.

ZAKARIA: I think it's worth calling that bluff because it was in fact NATO doctrine not to place forward deployed troops in some of these neighboring countries, like the Baltic republics. But that was all premised on the idea that Russia was a friendly power. This was, you know, this was done in 1997. And in 1997, if you remember, Russia was still trying, you know, even talking about itself joining NATO, about wanting to be part of the western democratic movement.

BANFIELD: I still hear echoes of (INAUDIBLE) I think back in the late '90s.

ZAKARIA: Exactly. Exactly.

BANFIELD: In this instance it seems like there's been such a quick devolution. Perhaps that's because the media has had a lot to pay attention to, perhaps not enough on Russia and its goals. But, ultimately, isn't President Putin reinvigorating a new NATO?

ZAKARIA: He is. You know, the odd thing about what Putin is doing is, he has - he has reinvigorated NATO. He has really transformed relations for Russia to the worst so that the poles with whom he had been developing good relations now are deeply suspicion. The Baltic republics are deeply suspicious. Germany, Angela Merkel thought she had this special, cozy relationship with Vladimir Putin. That has ended. And even along the other parts of Russia's border, countries like Kazakhstan. I had a former Kazakh official say to me, look, you know, we like the Russians, they're good for us economically, but when Putin says that the Russian army gets to protect Russians, well, we've got 25 percent Russians in Kazakhstan.

BANFIELD: Yes, everyone's a little nervous (INAUDIBLE).

ZAKARIA: What does this mean? It means that he gets to decide when he sends the Russian forces in?

BANFIELD: Can I switch you to the topic of ISIS and the foreign policy. The -- there are two very hot foreign policy stories that are sort of popping at the same time. And this recent announcement, 350 more boots on the ground effectively to protect the U.S. embassy. You've seen these things play out before. Is this a mission creep? Is this truly an embassy that is in danger at this time? This is the largest U.S. embassy in the world. Three hundred and fifty more soldiers. Or is that a front for saying, that's where they'll land and they will eventually be elsewhere?

ZAKARIA: It's mission creep but it's understandable mission creep. You touched on a very important thing, Ashleigh, which is, and you understand this, legally, the president needs authority to be able to act against ISIS. People assume that the president can just send troops and, you know, and bash any group, organization he wants. He can't.

BANFIELD: Not (INAUDIBLE).

ZAKARIA: He has to have legal authority. And so, right now, what they are construing the president's authority is coming from is that the United States needs to protect its citizens, its officials, you know, people in embassies and consulates and that that's why it's OK to do this. He may need broader authority. He may need to go back to Congress for this.

BANFIELD: I need - I need a quick answer on this, but do you think that two public beheadings blasted all over the world could actually drive U.S. foreign policy?

ZAKARIA: I hope not because I think that's the goal of ISIS. That's the goal of the Islamic State. They want us to jump. And I think the most important thing we should do with these situations is not play into their hands. This is - this shouldn't be foreign policy by being goaded. We should respond when we want to.

BANFIELD: So good to have you, Fareed. Thank you so much for taking the time to drop by.

ZAKARIA: A pleasure. A pleasure.

BANFIELD: We appreciate it.

We're going to hear more about American military strategy when Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel's going to appear on CNN at 3:00 p.m. Eastern. Our Jim Sciutto is going to have a live interview with the secretary of defense. Please tune in for that, especially at this critical time.

And ISIS is posting videos of its brutal acts to send a message. Just ahead, we're going to take a close look at some of these acts and what ISIS really hopes to accomplish with this brutality broadcast around the world.

We're also going to talk with a former jihadist about what, if anything, can be done to stop this force.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Two Americans have been mercilessly beheaded on video by the terror group ISIS. Amnesty International this week added to the stack of war crimes accusations against ISIS, publishing evidence of mass killings and abductions that Amnesty says are part of the systemic campaign of, quote, "ethnic cleansing" in northern Iraq. Britain's prime minister, David Cameron, described ISIS as the result of a, quote, "poisonous ideology of Islamic extremism" with tactics of, quote, "unimaginable brutality."

Its brutality, some would say evil, so extreme that for you to truly understand it, we believe we have a responsibility to show some of it. And what we're about to show is certainly not appropriate for children. This report from CNN's Nic Robertson will run about three minutes long. And when it's over, we will discuss Nic's reporting, but we will not show any more of the graphic images. So as Nic reports, ISIS has built a military strategy that relies on a detailed cataloging of terror to install fear. A strategy that also raises questions about the humanity of those who follow that strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The more ISIS grows, the more it fights like a regular army. Light infantry backed up by artillery. Tactics that have landed them heavy weapons. But don't be fooled, these fighters are barbaric in a way no fighting force has ever been before, cataloging and posting in near real-time their war crimes. Last week, pictures emerged from human rights groups showing more than 100 captured Syrian soldiers, paraded in their underwear. Then images of those same men, dead.

But ISIS wanted to make sure the world knew it was responsible, wasting little time posting this video showing commanders giving the order to fire, then the nauseating hail of bullets, confirmation of how those soldiers were brutally executed. Its propaganda. Like me, you want to turn away. But when we do, we give in. We are terrorized. And their goal is achieved.

Almost a decade ago, al Qaeda in Iraq, which ultimately morphed into ISIS, was led by this violent jihadist. He sprung to fame, beheading American businessman Nicholas Berg. Bin Laden's deputy, Ayman al Zawahiri, wrote him, criticizing his blood-thirsty tactics. The beheadings stopped. But when ISIS murders journalist James Foley in the same way, the same al Qaeda core leader has no response. At least not yet. As a result, extreme violence for propaganda seems to have no bounds.

ISIS' wholesale slaughter of both Syrian and Iraqi army troops is institutionalized in the organization now. Even women, even young children, are given severed heads to hold. ISIS leader Baghdadi is marginalizing al Qaeda's core, which means when his protegees target the west, it could be even more despicable than the terror we have seen in the past. These are fighters who have so debased and degraded themselves they have lost moral compass. And as any regular military commander will tell you, that puts them almost beyond control and ultimately a danger to their own organization. But unless they implode, despite the veneer of a regular army, they'll likely be more horrors like these.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: And Nic joins us live now in Newport, Wales.

Nic, I want to seize on one of the last things that you just said in that remarkable report. And that is this, that they have so debased and degraded themselves that ultimately they could be a danger to their own organization. That's what many in the West would think. And yet there is this juggernaut. These kinds of horrors seem to appeal to those they're trying to recruit.

How do we -- how do we actually qualify these two opposing theories?

ROBERTSON: Well, certainly, there are people that would aspire to being able to attack the West in any way possible. But -- and soldiers, any soldier will tell you this, until you've been in combat, until you've seen how bad it is, until you've experienced it, you cannot begin to comprehend the effect that it has on you.

And these people who have been involved in such brutal killings are not going to be able to walk away mentally unscathed. They're getting engaged in what we would regard as inhuman acts. They are inhuman acts. But these are only humans. And it is going to damage them. I mean, some of the other things we don't talk about here are the amputations that they're doing, the crucifixions that they're doing.

This takes them down a mental path that takes -- that without help you can't get back from. They're not going to be unaffected by this -- Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And there's just so much more, believe it or not, even with your incredible reporting, that we can't even show.

Nic, if you could stick around for me, please, because I want to bring a few other people into this conversation.

Up next a former jihadist is going to join us to talk about what made him ultimately turn away from that ideology. And then CNN's legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is going to talk about war crimes, the possibility of facing war crimes, or if that is even on their agenda.

That's after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Our breaking news. The vice president has just come out with some very, very strong words regarding the beheadings of two American journalists in speaking to a crowd in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. The vice president called ISIS barbarians and said this, quote, "We will follow them to the gates of hell until they are brought to justice," end quote. And the vice president went on to add, "Because hell is where they will reside." Again, the vice president speaking to a crowd in New Hampshire,

reacting to the executions of James Foley and Steven Sotloff by the hands of an ISIS executioner, and these violent and horrific actions of ISIS really for the most part disgust the vast majority of people. But the sad reality is that the execution videos and the attention that they bring can actually help ISIS recruit.

Want to continue the conversation of how the U.S. can fight ISIS propaganda with senior international correspondent Nic Robertson who rejoins us, as well as former jihadist Mubin Sheikh and CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

If I may start with you, Mubin Sheikh, when you see what Nic Robertson reported, and again, that is just a slice of some of the airable material that we've been able to put into his reporting. How is it that those in the West for the most part recoil at the brutality but many elsewhere find this actually appealing so as they would like to leave their homes and families and comfort zone to join this kind of activity?

MUBIN SHEIKH, FORMER JIHADIST: Sure, first, I just want to quickly transition from what the vice president was saying. Actually in the Islamic tradition, the Prophet Muhammad, Alayhis Salam, refers to this deviant group as dogs of hell, so it's actually very fitting comparison.

Secondly, I myself, when I grew up in the late '90s even when the Chechen war started, when the Iraq war started, I had watched hundreds of these beheading videos. And every single time we watched it, it was always to revel, to celebrate the fact that your enemy was being attacked, was being hit, and that the people that you consider your enemy were suffering because of it. And that brings happiness into those people who really are at war with you for all intents and purposes.

BANFIELD: Well, I've got to be honest, and Nic, maybe you can weigh in here. So many soldiers who go off to war have no idea of the horrors that they're about to see. And many may actually be part of. It seems the opposite here. It seems that this is becoming alluring and -- when you talked about the moral compass of so many of these fighters being effectively completely broken.

I'm wondering if the true story that CNN is putting on the air, we're showing this because we don't want to sanitize what it is they're doing, is effectively going to change the minds of some who perhaps in the West think that this is glory, or if it will mitigate at all of these glory propaganda videos that ISIS is sending out.

ROBERTSON: Yes, there's lots of harsh realities. A kids sitting whether it's in London or Paris, or Minnesota, wherever he's sitting that he thinks he's going to get some glory, we're going to join the jihad and fight in this -- in this despicable way, beheading people, is yet to face the realities of what it's like to actually be engaged in that.

And not only that. We've heard from people who have been in al Qaeda groups before. The hardships of living out in the desert. The hardships of not having the -- you know, the amenities that you would have at home. All of these come to bare and change that mindset.

We also have to remember a lot of the people that are amped up and enthused by watching this type of debase material are also young. Some of them are adolescents. Not all, but some. And so these are people who really haven't experienced life. And when they get out there and experience -- and if they get involved in some of these brutal acts, their life's experiences to date don't -- they don't have anything that can -- that they can reference and relate that to and live with what they've done.

Years later maybe they're going to undoubtedly have to face the mental consequences and trauma. The majority, there will be psychopaths among them who won't. But the majority of these kids who get enthused by it and go out there find a very different reality when they -- when they get involved. So this is -- this is part of the picture.

BANFIELD: And I dare say that already there's been proof that at least one and probably many who actually joined this kind of activity are already mentally unstable. The Australian who handed his child, his seven-year-old boy, that severed head, has a long history of mental instability. He'd been committed, he'd been medicated, and he had left, you know, his Australian home to take his family to Syria.

Can I just repeat what the vice president has said from Portsmouth, New Hampshire? Vice President Biden called ISIS, quote, "barbarians," and said, "We will follow them to the gates of hell until they're brought to justice because hell is where they will reside."

Jeffrey Toobin, it's one thing to use rhetoric like that. It is another thing to actually follow anyone to the gates of hell with the U.S. justice system or, I dare say, with the international justice system. Most people who commit atrocities in war don't leave behind a trail of evidence. And it's very hard to prove war crimes. On the other hand, these guys are cataloging it and sending it out to the world.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: That's true, and there is an International Criminal Court that after a great deal of difficulty is up and functioning and there have been war crimes prosecutions of people who were involved in the former Yugoslavia, in the Rwandan genocide in Africa, and the U.N. has said, we want to investigate what are obviously war crimes here and there are U.N. investigators actively involved now.

It's very difficult to get these cases done. And just to underline the complexity of the situation, the U.N. is also investigating war crimes by the Syrian government, which is ISIS' opponent in much of the fighting that's going on here. So you have war crimes on both sides which makes an investigation even more difficult. But the international community to the extent it can is really mobilized on this issue and trying to bring some of these people to justice.

BANFIELD: On one hand, there may be an array, a cornucopia of evidence that they have willingly offered up. TOOBIN: Right.

BANFIELD: You know, albeit many of them masked but many of them not. But America's role in the International Criminal Court is also messy.

TOOBIN: We are not a part of it.

BANFIELD: Right.

TOOBIN: We have not agreed to participate in the International Criminal Court. There have been times when American investigators have cooperated in turning over evidence, but we are not a party. We don't have judges there. We don't agree to have American citizens tried in the International Criminal Court. So we have, as you point out, an ambivalent relationship at best with that court. But that doesn't stop these prosecutions from going forward.

BANFIELD: And Mubin Sheikh, if I could just ask you a little bit about the notion that so many of these ISIS fighters have absolutely no compunction whatsoever about showing themselves on video, again, with the caveat, many of them are masked like this executioner of our two American journalists.

What is the mentality behind it? Is it I will die on the battlefield, I'll never be taken alive, or I'm proud of what I've done, or a little mix of both?

SHEIKH: It is a little mix of both. And what it all is theater. And for a lot of these guys, they think they're living a fantasy of, we're the holy warriors. We're following in the footsteps of the early Muslim companions and the early Muslims. And it's like a costume that they put on. You know, the overt religiosity, putting on the beard, giving themselves names like, you know, Abu Muhajer, al so and so.

They're just draping themselves in the theater of Islamic history and mythology really. Trying to portray themselves as, you know, figures of the glorious past. The Vanguards of the faith.

BANFIELD: Vanguards of the faith, but, again, it is the faith that's in question here. As many prominent Islamic scholars have issued a fatwa against those who have been committing these kinds of acts.

Mubin Sheikh and Jeffrey Toobin, if I could ask you to stay put. I have so many other questions for you.

In the meantime, our breaking news that the vice president has said these words. He has called ISIS barbarians, he has said we will follow them to the gates of hell until they are brought to justice because hell is where they reside.

What effectively that rhetoric means in terms of practicalities? More on that coming up after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)