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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Kurds Fighting ISIS Near Turkey; U.K. Votes to Support Air Strikes in Iraq, Not Syria; A Look at Whether Turkey Will Join ISIS Fight

Aired September 26, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Some remarkable images coming off of the border between Syria and Turkey at this hour. For the last half hour or so, we have been watching live pictures, something up until now we've only been really able to see through ISIS propaganda videos. It is actual battle between Turkish forces and ISIS forces as well. All of this happening in front of a CNN camera where our Phil Black is stationed among a number of refugees who have been watching this dramatic battle that's been taking place as well.

It is nightfall now. 7:00 where you are, Phil Black. But at least give me the scene setter of what we've been seeing on camera for the last 40 minutes or so?

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Ashleigh.

So where we are standing is just on a hilltop just north of the Turkey/Syria border. So on the Turkey side just across that border behind me. And we're going to move in there slowly now. I think we're going to try, although the fact that we've lost sunlight, there is still a gun battle going on behind me just on a ridge line. And we're still seeing extended tracer fire, hearing small arms fire being exchanged.

Now, what we have seen, when there was still daylight here to see it, and it was an extraordinary sight, ISIS fighters at the top of a ridge doing their best, well, to move forward, to try and claim territory here in northern Syria, as they have been doing for the last week or so. They are battling Syrians, but these are ethnically Kurdish Syrians. This is the territory largely dominated by ethnic Kurds in northern Syria that ISIS has been battling to try and claim during the last week. The reason why we've been talking about this for the last week it that it is because it has triggered really an extensive humanitarian crisis, triggering the movement of upwards of 200,000 Syrians toward the Turkish border to try and seek shelter and sanctuary on the Turkish side of the border.

So, bear with me now while we move in, I think, towards that ridge line in the darkness there. We're going to try and see what we can that is still going on there in terms of this ongoing battle. It has been going on through the day. As I say, on one ridge line, we have seen this extraordinary sight of ISIS fighters in action. They have been firing. They have been taking fire. And our photojournalist here with me, Claudia Otto (ph), has reported seeing some of those fighters actually take casualties, receive injuries and be carried away.

Now, just as darkness fell here, we believe that those ISIS fighters moved away from that ridge line somewhat. But what we have still been hearing is small arms fire in the distance. What we have still been seeing is tracer fire, largely moving and coming from the direction of the Kurdish. That is the Syrian fighters that are trying to resist this ISIS advance.

Now, let me just try and put this all in context for you one more time because it is very complex. We are here just over the border from northern Syria where ISIS has been advancing for something like a week now. They have been advancing through this territory that is dominated by ethnic Kurds. Such is the reputation of ISIS that the start of this advance triggered an enormous wave of refugees moving toward the Turkish border. Turkish authorities, the United Nations, reported as many as 140,000, 150,000 in just a few days seeking shelter there.

The fighting has been going on since then. Each day, ISIS has been claiming a little more territory. What has been slowing them down has been the determined effort of Kurdish Syrian fighters. That is the people who are defending their very homes, their villages, their towns. They have weapons, some light arms, but they say they are out- gunned and outnumbered. They say they have - they do not have the heavy armory - the heavy armored weapons that ISIS has been able to use and to continue advancing with.

So this has been going on for some days now. And what we have seen, and what has been reported, and what we have seen on the Turkish side of the border is a continued exodus of refugees. And from talking to those refugees, they really tell us terrible, sad, traumatic stories about the nature of them dropping everything to flee their homes through the dust, to the border. What they have seen, what they have lost. Many report having lost loved ones directly to ISIS fighters, some in crossfire, some have talked about executions, some have talked about artillery fire wiping out their whole family in just a few moments. That is the human cost of what we have been seeing.

Through the afternoon, at this distance, it has looked like just some small figures on the top of a ridge line moving around, clearly fighting. But this is war. What we are witnessing is a concerted attempt by ISIS to move into this territory, we are told, from three directions, the east where we are, the south, and the west as well towards the major town of Kabani (ph) on the Syrian side of the border. They had been moving steadily here. Their advance initially was rapid. It has since been slowed down by that determined fighting of those local Kurdish fighters.

And I should also add the Kurdish population on the Turkish side of the boarder. There are also ethnic Kurds here. Some of them have crossed over the border to join in the fight and to try and hold off this ISIS advance. They haven't been able to stop it. They have been able to slow it down. What we have been hearing from those fighters and indeed from the refugees that have been crossing over is a question, where is the coalition air power that has been striking ISIS in other parts of Syria and Iraq as well? Because they make the point, if ISIS is recoiling from those air strikes in other areas of Syria, they are not doing so here. They are advancing openly. They are on the offensive. They are not being interfered with in any way by air power.

And I know that that is what these fighters on the ground and the many Syrian -- as the many Syrian refugees that have been crossing over say they would like to see. In fact, from those fighters on the ground, they issued a very public statement yesterday appealing for some degree of coordination with the international coalition, saying, they are prepared to deal directly with the coalition. They are prepared to provide some form of targeting information to help them locate the ISIS forces because those fighters on the ground believe without that sort of assistance, they will not be able to stop this ISIS advance, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: So, I just want to reset what our viewers are seeing, Phil. On the left-hand side of your screen is your live shot. It has gone effectively dark just within the last 20 minutes or so. But the right- hand side of the screen is what your view is from where you're standing just before the sun went down. And that is a ridge line populated by ISIS fighters who have been taking on fire as well from the ethnic Kurds who are fighting. The Syrian Kurds who are in that region trying to battle them back. And this has literally been a live gun battle that we've been witnessing on television. Every so often we could see the red tracer fire going through the video and every so often we could see the small arms battle as well going on. And on occasion, we could see -- we could see fighters actually going down and then being carried off by some of their comrades. And so just to make sure that people are aware of what's on the screen right now.

Phil, one of the things you mentioned to me was very concerning, and that was that you're - you're definitely behind the Turkish border, but everyone knows ISIS doesn't recognize borders. ISIS wants an Islamic state. What is to stop those fighters, now that it's nightfall, from moving more toward your location and the location of those refugees that are with you? Because as I understand, you're only about two, three miles away.

BLACK: Yes, we're right on the border really. Very close. And, yes, they are probably at a distance of some two or three miles. It would appear that they have been pinned down, to some degree, I think on that ridge line this afternoon. They tried to advance beyond there, which those daylight images, I think, show to some degree. They tried to advance down the hillside. They were driven back by incoming fire. They sought shelter at the top of the hill. And then as those images show, they came under fire and it would appear that some of those ISIS fighters were, indeed, hit by that incoming fire. The last that we saw clearly, we think, before the sun went down, was those ISIS fighters pulling back from the hillside, going down the other side.

Now, you mentioned what's to stop them from moving closer to Turkey? Well, along this Turkish border, very close to where I am standing now, is a very heavy Turkish military presence. They patrol often in armored vehicles. There are a lot of dug in positions. It is heavily fortified. They have really gone to great effort to secure this border. Secure it as best they can, I guess, while dealing with what is unquestionably a humanitarian crisis, not just in these last few days, which has seen hundreds of thousands of these people from northern Syria cross over because of the fighting that we've been witnessing here, but also because of the ongoing Syrian civil conflict, which has been going for more than three and a half years.

Because of all of that fighting, Turkey is now home to some 1.5 million Syrians. It is an extraordinary figure, and for the Turkish authorities it is an extraordinary burden. One they believe they have been left to shoulder pretty much by themselves. They do not believe the international community has done enough to help them. So that is the priority for the Turkish government and the Turkish authorities, dealing with that humanitarian crisis.

Secondly, they are, to some degree, trying to secure the border, while doing so in a humane way, letting everyone over that wants to come over. And there are obviously security implications that come with that. Because the border is so porous, because there is so much human movement from Syria into Turkey, there is, obviously, significant potential for ISIS, other militants to also cross over and so forth. So there's been some analysis I think of why Turkey has not joined the international coalition taking the fight directly to ISIS.

And a lot of that analysis points to the vulnerability that Turkey has that the other countries in this coalition do not have. Turkey effectively borders territory with ISIS, and so because of that, if ISIS wanted to retaliate, giving the porous nature of this border, it is very likely that it could do so on Turkish territory and probably to some devastating effect, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And let me just get Jim Sciutto from the Pentagon in here.

Jim, one of the things that Phil Black just mentioned was that there is an absence, obviously, of coalition force air strikes at a time when it would seem fairly simple, at least from the viewpoint of our cameras, to take out those fighters on this ridge. Granted there aren't a lot of them. But what is the notion of where the air strikes fall and when? If CNN can get a live image up of a live fire fight, why isn't the Pentagon doing something about it?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIE NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, it's a great point. This is a situation, a crisis that's been building for a number of days now. We've been hearing from Syrian Kurdish groups, groups across the border about this, asking, begging for American help in light of this. And when you think about it, Ashleigh, these Syrian Kurds are facing the same threat that, for instance, the Yezidi people were facing just a few weeks ago. And, remember, it was that threat that helped spark the initial U.S. air campaign in Iraq to help rescue those people and others who've since faced the threat of death and devastation and rape and forced conversion from ISIS. That led to air strikes with the Yezidis and others, has not yet led to air strikes with the Syrian Kurds.

Now, I can tell you that that is not an option that the Pentagon has taken off the table. It's something that we should watch closely for. But you also make a great point there, because there's been a great deal of description of how Syria is an intelligence black hole in part because the U.S. has really had no presence there and did not arm and train Syrian rebel groups until they've just begun to do so now. And because of that lack of involvement, have not had great intelligence on the ground. But here you see, playing out on cameras right now, fantastic intelligence you can say, because we know exactly where those fighters are.

Now, air strikes are not things that just pop up out of nowhere, particularly and since this is a part of the country that the coalition - the U.S.-led coalition has chosen not to strike yet, but, you know, I can tell you that I know people in this building are watching this as well and it's -- and we also have the secretary of defense coming on the air live in about an hour. He's going to be briefing reporters here. It will be a question I'll certainly be asking him.

BANFIELD: OK. And while you prepare for that, Jim Sciutto at the Pentagon, I just want to replay for our viewers who might be just joining us, what transpired, again, as Jim Sciutto just called it, pretty good intelligence on the ground. CNN's live cameras capturing this firefight between these Kurdish fighters, these Syrian Kurdish fighters and ISIS fighters on the ground, right at the Turkish border. This is just within the hour as daylight was ending and the sun was going down. I want you to look at it for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLACK: Just take a look up at that ridge line now. What you're seeing is tracer fire moving in to that ridge line that is currently occupied by ISIS forces. And around me, the Kurdish crowd is cheering. Take a listen.

Now, John, it is getting quite dark here, so increasingly difficult to make out the actual figures on the ridge line itself. But we can see from that tracer fire that they are still receiving incoming fire. And it is at that position that our photo journalist Claudia Otto (ph) has seen ISIS fighters take casualties, take hits. They've received injuries and they've seen other fighters carrying their wounded away from that location.

This has been the scene through the afternoon. Small arms fire and some heavier artillery as well. Mortars I mentioned earlier. We haven't seen any of the heavy -- or heard any of the heavier rounds for about an hour or so now I think. But as you can see from that tracer fire still moving across the skyline, that fighting is still very much going on there.

We're on one hilltop. In between us is the border. The border cuts through a valley. That is the opposing hilltop from where we're standing. And I think it is a distance of some two or three miles perhaps. It is not far. It is not far. And when the light was much better today, we could clearly make out the ISIS fighters on that ridge line, as well as their opposing Kurdish fighters on an opposite ridge line as well. And what we have seen is not just fighters at the top of those ridges, but also in the hills behind them. We've seen their support teams moving in ammunition, vehicles, that sort of thing to support the fighters who are directly engaged in the fight that is taking place between the tops of two hills. Just a narrow valley between them.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BANFIELD: Just some remarkable reporting coming to us from CNN's Phil Black and CNN photojournalist Claudia Otto (ph), who are virtually witnessing a live battle between Kurdish forces, Syrian Kurdish forces, and ISIS forces on a ridge line at the Turkish border. It is nightfall now, as you can see in the upper portion of your screen. To the right of me is the image from just within an hour ago of this fire fight and those ISIS fighters taking on fire and taking on casualties as well.

Coming up after the break, a panel of the top experts on this exact kind of action is going to weigh in. General Wesley Clark (ph), the former NATO supreme allied commander, joined also by General Spider Marks, CNN military analyst, Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, CNN military analyst, and Fareed Zakaria, host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS," will weigh in on what we've seen, what might happen next, and what this means. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Following breaking news at CNN, thanks for being with us.

If you have been following the news this morning, the parliament in the U.K. has been open and discussing the debate over whether to join in air strikes against ISIS fighters in Iraq, and there was a crucial vote that was held.

Don't forget there was a vote held just a year ago in which the U.K. decided not to perform any air strike against the Assad government after chemical attacks. Has anything changed this time around? Turns out, absolutely.

Our Hala Gorani joining me live now from London. This is a remarkable development, perhaps not one that was expected, Hala?

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What was expected was that the motion would pass, Ashleigh.

And as you mentioned there, we do have breaking news minutes old that the U.K. has once again voted to go to war, assisting in the military coalition in its strikes against ISIS targets in Iraq.

The breakdown of the vote, however, overwhelmingly in favor, 524 yes, 43 no, supporting a motion brought forward by the government of David Cameron, the prime minister here, to include and involve U.K. fighter jets in the mission over Iraq to defeat ISIS.

Now, importantly, Ashleigh, and I think this is what needs to be underlined, this is a very slim line motion. This doesn't include air strikes in Syria -- the U.S. is leading that effort with five Arab nations -- and it doesn't involve boots on the ground.

David Cameron is making sure that the opposition politicians here know that, and that the U.K. public is not being set up for a prolonged ground war.

Back to you. BANFIELD: All right, Hala Gorani, thank you for that.

I want to turn to Fareed Zakaria, my colleague, the host of "GPS." I think a lot of people might have actually thought up until the Brits might have already been onboard for air strikes in Iraq. We're not talking about Syria. We're talking about Iraq.

The significance of this?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": It is very significant, particularly the size of the vote. Britain has been with the United States in almost every military struggle it's had really for decades and decades.

But militarily, it's not as significant as you might think. What we've been talking about before the break, Ashleigh, is really the crucial issue, which is the fight between the Syrian Kurds and ISIS is now taking place very close to the Turkish border.

The crucial question becomes, will Turkey get involved? Because if Turkey gets involved, you have a very large country with a very serious army with lots of ground troops that could take on the battle with ISIS.

So far, they have been unwilling to do it for two reasons. One, they're very close to the border, and they worry about ISIS retaliating, but most importantly, there were 49 Turkish hostages that ISIS had.

They have been released, and we now know -- Prime Minister Erdogan said actually at a meeting that I was at last week that there was no political deal made with ISIS.

BANFIELD: None.

ZAKARIA: It was basically a swap. It was a prisoner swap. So they didn't -- the Turks did not promise ISIS that they would not attack them.

If Turkey gets more involved, that will be much more significant than Britain. I'm sorry to say that, but it's the new world we live in. Turkey is the power on the ground. It has tens and tens of thousands of incredibly well-trained troops.

BANFIELD: Considering they might -- they would maybe consider boots on the ground? Would Turkish soldiers go over that border into Syria, into Iraq and fight ISIS?

ZAKARIA: Here's what I'm thinking. If you end up coordinating with Turkey, you begin with airpower, which would be American, but also Turkish. Turks have a very good air force. And then you have hot pursuit, which the Turkish army could do. They wouldn't stay in Syrian territory, but they'd go in and then withdraw.

It could be far more effective than anything we've talked about yet. Because until now, our big hole has been the lack of competent ground forces. The Iraqis are not that good. The Peshmerga, the Kurdish forces, are good but small.

This is a serious army from a serious NATO country.

BANFIELD: Fareed, do you think that will happen?

ZAKARIA: I thing there's a chance. Erdogan hinted in this meeting that Turkey was going to change its strategy now that it had its hostages back --

BANFIELD: I love the fact you were in the meeting with the Turkish prime minister, Erdogan. That's just remarkable.

Hold that thought for a moment. I want to bring our military generals and Colonel Rick Francona in on this discussion as well, because, if you're watching the incredible live pictures that we've been showing within the hour, gentlemen, this is from within inside Turkey.

It's nightfall now, but only within the last 45 minutes did the sun go down, and prior to this dark shot that you're seeing was a very clear view of ISIS fighters holding a ridge, what appeared to be pinned down on a ridge, by Syrian Kurdish forces.

Tracer fire going through our camera shot, constantly. Small arms fire. Casualties being taken on the is lines. All of this visible to CNN's live cameras. And remarkable restraint, it would appear on behalf of the Turkish military that is just behind our camera view.

So I'm going to start with you, Wesley Clark. Give me the read from the ground on Turkey's restraint and what they would do if that situation dynamically changed?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK (RETIRED), FORMER NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: I think when you look at that, you look at the difficulty of this campaign.

As Fareed said, there are no ground troops. What you've got, in appearance of the cameras, it looks like a handful of troops. It may be many more than that. This could be the advance the element. Maybe behind the ridge line where you can't see it, there's artillery, mortars. Maybe there's another couple hundred troops somewhere, waiting for a breakthrough here. We don't know.

The point is that, if you try to put yourself in the position of a pilot flying five miles up at 500 miles an hour, looking for something to bomb, he's not going to bomb those five troops there unless there's someone on the ground that can put a laser spot on those troops and show them exactly where the bomb must fall and make positive identification.

So we have to understand the limitations of an air campaign. Now, what Fareed said is also important. It's never been assumed that we were going to put U.S. ground troops in there to clear this out. This would be a major military operation.

Think like the re-invasion of Iraq. You're not talking about putting 400 troops on the ground. This is a huge area. It's not that well developed in terms of roads. It's full of people still. We don't -- all our forces don't all speak Arabic. We've got a few Arabic speakers now. We'd have to have to have logistics. We'd have opposition. And at the end, we'd be chasing people in and out of villages who were in disguise and shooting at us and using civilians for hostages.

This is not our fight. This is the fight of the nations in the region. ISIS is a threat to Saudi Arabia, to Qatar, to Kuwait, to Iraq, to Jordan, and to Turkey. We can support it. We can even say we're helping organize it.

It's their fight and they have to put their men on the ground to fight it. We can't do it for them. We're a Judeo-Christian army. We can't do this.

BANFIELD: Despite the fact that there are all these Arab allies, which many say are Sunni allies as well, it does change the dynamic somewhat.

General "Spider" Marks, I want you to weigh in on this notion that these Turkish armored vehicles and forces that are with Phil Black's position, literally behind the camera lens that you're seeing on your screen right now, amongst all of those refugees who you could hear cheering in the background as ISIS fighters were taking on casualties, as the tracers were going through the screen.

You know, as Fareed said it, it could change. Things could change. Turkey could end up as part of the coalition and the dynamic could change, but as the rules of engagement have them right now, they're primarily, as Phil Black reported, refugee assistants. That's the main role for these troops.

What could change on the ground with what you're seeing on your screen for that to be set upside down and have to have them engaged with, say, some of those forces?

JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes. Ashleigh, what you see is the beginning of a potential change in that mission set. Clearly this is an example of what we all understand -- the enemy has a vote.

The United States' stated priority is to give the Iraqi military time and space, and to drive is back into Syria then take care of that problem, isolate those forces that might be in Iraq from their support base in Syria.

So what you see is an enemy that has morphed and is choosing to take another route, so you've got ungoverned space with ISIS fighters in close proximity on top of the border with Turkey.

It's not unlike -- I mean, the images that CNN is portraying right now, go back 150 years, and this is the citizens of D.C. watching the first battle of Bull Run. It's almost surreal.

This is very serious business, but the Turkish military, as has been indicated by General Clark and Fareed, this is an incredibly competent, very capable military that has the ability to fight at night as well. The fact that it's dark is not relevant to them. They can engage those targets.

That's what we see right now. And the air tasking order, what the United States has produced is an air tasking order that is not as flexible as you'd like it to be, different packages, different capabilities.

We're now looking, again, as what General Clark has indicated, a different attack profile for aircraft going after ground troops dispersed on the ground in close proximity to potential civilians and friendly fighters.

BANFIELD: Colonel Francona, I want you to weigh in on this notion that we don't have the human intelligence on the ground to, say, call in air strikes, whether that would be necessary with that number of fighters, anyway.

If CNN is on the ground with cameras like that, maybe we don't have American forces exactly in that location, but certainly there's site intelligence that can give just as clear a picture.

LIEUTENANT COLONEL RICK FRANCONA (RETIRED), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yeah, the problem is, and it sounds good on paper, and it sounds good to talk about, well, we've got the pictures, we're watching this on TV, why can't the Air Force, the air power take these guys on?

BANFIELD: It's been going on for days. It's not just this hour.

FRANCONA: But the key fact that there are no ground spotters there, and the U.S. is not going to put bombs in close proximity to civilians or friendly forces without somebody on the ground. You're just not going to do it, because the risk of friendly casualties and civilian casualties outweighs the tactical advantage.

And General Clark brings up a good point. We don't know what's on the other side of that ridge.

BANFIELD: But couldn't there be some kind of covert intelligence from the Turks on that side of the border to at least call in --

FRANCONA: There could. And I think that Turkey, as everyone else has said ...

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