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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Interview with California Congressman Darrell Issa; Secret Service Lapses; Hong Kong Protests; D.A.: Beheading Suspected Wanted Revenge; Alleged Cop Killer Spotted?

Aired September 30, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good thing for the president this guy was there on his day off.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The national lead. Come right on in, the Secret Service grilled all day on Capitol Hill. And now we're learning new details about the man who got deep into the White House. And it took an off-duty agent to stop him.

The world lead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It will be even safer if we have millions of people on the streets. I don't think they can shoot that many people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The Chinese cannot shoot that many people, he says, but today could be the tipping point, a day off from work in Hong Kong and thousands, maybe a million waiting to have their voices heard by the communists in China who decided to crack down on their rights.

Also in national news, he said he hated white people. He spoke in Arabic -- new information on what motivated a man to allegedly commit a beheading on U.S. soil.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We begin with the national lead and one of the most distressing stories we have heard yet about the U.S. Secret Service amidst years' worth of avalanches of horrific stories about the beleaguered agency tasked with keeping our nation's leaders alive and safe amid a seemingly nonstop slew of threats.

The head of that agency was grilled on Capitol Hill today about the most recent security failure in which a man known by law enforcement to have been disturbed somehow with a knife actually got deep into the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: I hate to even imagine what could have happened if Gonzalez had been carrying a gun, instead of a knife when he burst inside the White House.

REP. STEPHEN LYNCH (D), MASSACHUSETTS: This is the Secret Service against one individual with mental illness, and you lost.

REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: How much would it cost to lock the front door of the White House?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Just hours ago, we heard lawmaker after lawmaker say that the suspect got even deeper into the White House than the Secret Service first admitted, not only hopping the fence, not only running across the lawn, not only opening and walking through the front door of the White House, which was astoundingly unlocked, but this man pushed aside a Secret Service agent and walked past the stairs to the first family's residence, and then got into the famous White House East Room, a room that the president and you probably know well.

It's where the president often speaks to the nation to tell us, for example, that Osama bin Laden has been killed. This news is at the very least chilling information about security breaches in the most important residence in the world at a time of peril and threats to the nation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER (voice-over): It's a job that can zero room for error, the consequences far too tragic and too public to risk. The life of the leader of the free world rests in their hands.

The United States Secret Service, of course, has innumerable quiet daily successes to its name, but after a series of high-profile fiascoes, the service meant to be, well, secret is now in the national spotlight and not for the first time.

ISSA: The American people want to know, is the president safe?

TAPPER: Today, Secret Service Director Julia Pierson answered for the latest shocking security failures.

JULIA PIERSON, DIRECTOR, SECRET SERVICE: It's clear that our security plan was not properly executed.

TAPPER: Most recently on September 19, when an Iraq war veteran with a knife in his pocket hopped a fence and ran unimpeded through the front door of the White House getting as far as the East Room, bypassing five rings of security.

LYNCH: I wish to God you protected the White House like you are protecting your reputation here today.

TAPPER: The safety of the president and his family has been the charge of the Secret Service since 1902. Before then, the Secret Service was tasked with catching counterfeiters for the Treasury.

Now, after more than 100 years on the job, those protected without incident are numerous, but our memories hold only the most extreme, Reagan shot in the lung in 1981, Ford caught in a would-be shooter's crosshairs in 1975, and, most searingly, Kennedy killed in 1963.

There are other incidents, though. During the Nixon administration, an angry Army private successfully landed a stolen helicopter on the South Lawn. The list of presidents targeted by assassination plots and attempts illustrates just how omnipresent the threat is, Taft, Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Truman, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, and, of course, Obama.

Pierson was asked about these bullet holes that went undiscovered by the Secret Service until four days after they were fired by a gun into the White House in 2011. And of course the Secret Service is embattled because of the 2012 incident when a dozen agents were punished after a night of debauchery in this Cartagena hotel, prostitutes and heavy drinking on the list of transgressions.

PIERSON: We're humans and people make mistakes.

TAPPER: But, of course, it's a job with little room for mistakes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Joining us now is the chairman of the committee that held today's hearing, Republican Congressman Darrell Issa.

Congressman, thanks so much for being here. We appreciate it.

So, look, this is a mess. We have the incident with this guy getting into the East Room, the Cartagena incident, the Salahis, not seeing the bullets that were fired. What's the problem?

ISSA: This is an agency that has a very large budget, thousands of employees, plenty of time and money for training, but appears to have low morale, questionable training actually being done.

And an example is, the officer that was supposed to lock the front door thought she had locked the front door, but in fact she was not trained in how to lock an old-fashion door that had little pegs at the top and the bottom.

Since that time, for a couple thousand dollars, they put an electric lock on so that won't happen again. But this is a 150-year-old-plus building. This is an example where a couple thousand dollars of prevention would have stopped this to begin with.

TAPPER: Is the problem, do you think, the leadership? The president said that he still has confidence in the director, Julia Pierson. You said you do not have confidence in her. Do you think she should resign?

ISSA: Today, Mr. Cummings and I, I think, failed to see the energy level and the real commitment and sharp answers that we had hoped for from the director.

Both my ranking member, Mr. Cummings and I, are going to be preparing a letter asking for an outside oversight panel, nonpartisan, to really look at the series of events that in a way would look to reform with or without the director at the Secret Service, because it's clear that just saying we can do better or it was just human error doesn't get it anymore.

TAPPER: So you're not calling for her resignation, at least not at this point?

ISSA: That's really a decision for the secretary and the president. The oversight role and the reform role for us is to make sure that the tools are available, the information is available both to Congress and to the president.

But the president has not been well-served by the Secret Service, in my opinion, during his entire presidency. These mistakes, each and every one of them, should not happen in an agency with a $1.5 billion budget.

TAPPER: Let's talk about their tactics for a second. I want to play this clip from your fellow Republican, Congressman Jason Chaffetz, advocating for the use of deadly force on intruders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), UTAH: We want to see overwhelming force. If a would-be intruder can't be stopped by a dog or intercepted by a person, perhaps more lethal force is necessary.

And I want those Secret Service agents and officers to know at least this member of Congress has their back. Don't let somebody get close to the president. Don't let somebody get close to his family. Don't let them get in the White House ever. And if they have to take action that is lethal, I will have their back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, look, obviously if the Secret Service had fired and killed this man, there would be an outcry and people saying that they used excessive force, et cetera.

But given the world we're in, do you think that that should be the norm, that deadly force on intruders who hop the fence and run to the White House should be standard operating procedure?

ISSA: If the procedures that were in place had been followed, the dog had been released, individuals had gotten to him in time, this wouldn't have been necessary. If the door had been locked, they would have trapped him at the door.

Failing those points, the question of should you shoot somebody as they enter the White House, the director said they have the authority to do it. It's a judgment call. But I think the important issue here is, they do have the tools, famously, sniper tools, and so on, if there's a real attack on the White House.

And I think that's what Subcommittee Chairman Chaffetz was talking about is, if there's an attack, you should be able to. But I think what should concern us here is, if it wasn't for off-duty in addition to the Secret Service agent who was at the door, they wouldn't even have tackled him until far later.

And, ultimately, he got all the way to the East Room, dragging Secret Service agent behind him, one who had a gun and a baton and who thought she had locked the door. That series of mistakes and lack of capability should concern us.

TAPPER: What's the most important fact you heard today, either from the public session or the closed-door session that we did not hear?

ISSA: I think what the American people heard that really astounded them was that a -- quote -- "ceremonial door" with a bulletproof glass overshield was not designed to be quickly locked.

And the agent at the door, the officer at the door was unable to properly lock it, which would have prevented this. That is perhaps the most egregious error. Somebody running to the fence -- from the fence, whether you could catch them in time is different than, you knew somebody was coming, you could have locked the door.

Today, that's been corrected. And as we correct these kinds of errors, in 2011, those shots fired, there are technologies that would allow you to differentiate between a shot fired and a backfiring of a vehicle.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Yes.

ISSA: There's technology to show you where it was fired from and where it went to. Those technologies have to be employed around the White House.

But, Jake, here's the concern that Mr. Chaffetz said and Mr. Cummings and I all share. The White House is the easiest-to-secure place that the president ever goes.

TAPPER: Right.

ISSA: The hard-to-secure place is somebody's home while he's doing a finance -- or a campaign event or while he's traveling, if you remember President Reagan being shot at the Hilton.

These are tougher locations. So, we need a force that is well- trained, that is rehearsed and that is motivated. And that's part of what we want to review to look at, is the morale, training and discipline of this force to make sure it's at its best.

TAPPER: Congressman Darrell Issa of California, thank you so much. Appreciate it, sir.

ISSA: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: In other national news, it's more than likely he will face the death penalty, the man accused of beheading a co-worker charged today with first-degree murder, as the district attorney reveals new details on the investigation, including the suspect's statement that he hated white people. That's coming up next.

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TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

The national lead now, he said, he, quote, "didn't like white people" and he apparently had a fascination with beheadings. Those are just two of the many chilling details we learned today about the man accused in a sickening attack on his co-workers in Moore, Oklahoma.

According to the Cleveland County district attorney, 30-year-old Alton Alexander Nolen was motivated by revenge after he was suspended from his job at Vaughan Foods for making racist buildings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREG MASHBURN, CLEVELAND COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Upon entering the building, he came across Mrs. Hufford and attacked her from behind, ultimately killing her and beheading her. He then saw Mrs. Johnson who had been the person who had complained on him earlier that day and attacked her.

There were three different people that he had on his mind that had oppressed him. And they were of different races and different genders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The FBI is investigating claims that Nolen spoke Arabic when he allegedly attacked two women with a knife. He had recently converted to Islam and he quoted the Koran in various Facebook postings. Nolen is charged with first degree and attempted murder, and will likely face the death penalty.

Joining me now is Jim Clemente. He's a retired FBI profiler and author of the book "Without Consent."

Jim, thanks so much for joining us.

Based upon what we know now, did he do this because he's deranged, because he's anti-white, because he's a Muslim extremist, because he's disgruntled? Why did he do it?

JIM CLEMENTE, RETIRED FBI PROFILER: I think it's a combination of all of the above. I think he used this opportunity to get revenge but he also used the mechanism of radicalized religion to actually sort of rationalize his behavior. I think this is a very, very dangerous combination. When you have a hate speech, when you have somebody who has radicalized the religion, and when you have violent postings or violent behavior, that's sort of a trifecta and that is an indication that this guy will act out violently.

TAPPER: There's criticism of the FBI and law enforcement for not labeling him a terrorist, for not labeling this is a terrorist attack. You're a former official with the FBI. Is political correctness part of that decision?

CLEMENTE: Well, I don't think so. I think they want to be accurately describing what he is. Now, people said that he uttered words from the Koran or -- excuse me -- uttered Arabic language during the course of the attacks. Unless those words were actually translated, unless we actually know what he said, we don't know exactly what he was saying and whether this was a terroristic act or really just a revenge act where he kind of wanted to make it seem like it's more than what it actually was.

TAPPER: Do you think there was any way for anyone to have anticipated that he was capable of such violence? And, if so, what could they have done?

CLEMENTE: Well, I think the hate speech that got him suspended was enough to refer him to a psychological counselor. And if he was evaluated at that time, he may have actually come up as somebody who was going to act out violently. Of course, nobody could actually predict human behavior that way because you have a lot of free will. You can make choices one way or the other. But when you start seeing red flags like that, a good psychological analysis would be able to pick up the fact that this guy was headed for violent behavior, I think.

TAPPER: What about his friends on Facebook? He posted horrific stuff there, including an image of a beheading with a religious justification, pictures of Osama bin Laden. If you were a friend -- if you had a friend like that and you saw those images and those expressions, what are you supposed to do?

CLEMENTE: Well, first of all, they can report that kind of stuff to the online organization. But I think that kind of thing, where he's actually posting those pictures of beheadings, violent behaviors, speaking hate speech, I think those things kind of rise to the level that you might want to notify law enforcement in your area, and I think that's really what's going to actually prevent these kinds of things from happening, ground swelling of -- excuse me -- support from people out there, the general public are the ones that have the eyes and ears on all of these pages.

He has friends. He has people he talks to. If he's talking that way, if somebody you know was talking that way and acting this way and posting those things, well, get him some help. Maybe we can prevent these kinds of things from happening.

TAPPER: Retired FBI profiler Jim Clemente -- thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

CLEMENTE: Thank you.

TAPPER: Coming up, a potential huge break in the search for a suspected cop killer. Police in Pennsylvania now believe they have spotted him in the last 24 hours. New details on that manhunt, next. Plus, students rushed from a Kentucky school today after reports of a shooting, and it's the second school shooting in this country just today.

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TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD.

Some breaking national news: this afternoon, a possible break in the dangerous three-week long manhunt for an accused cop killer and survivalist. Police say there was a sighting of Eric Frein in the past 24 hours. They also say they found two fully functional pipe bombs in the dense woods in which they are searching.

Justice reporter Evan Perez joins me now.

Evan, what is the latest on this new sighting?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Jake, you know, this is significant because this is the first time in some time that they've been able to say that the officers who were searching for him -- the 1,000 officers searching for him, and they believe that they have sighted him in the search area. Now, they're not saying specifically where, but they have been looking for him in this 3-mile search area and he's been evading, booby-trapped the entire area, so they believe they might be close to figuring out where he is.

TAPPER: But this isn't the first lead that they've had on this possible location, right??

PEREZ: No. Exactly. I mean, they have been sightings from residents and some from law enforcement officers who've been looking for him. But they've been mostly at a distance.

This is the first time they believe that they might have a close sight on him and it's also significant that they see these two pipe books because now this brings up additional charges that they could bring against him, not only for murdering a police officer, a state trooper, and shooting at another. But now, we have weapons of mass destruction. So, this is something the FBI, the ATF, are all working on.

TAPPER: Translate this from police language for -- into English for us, if you would. What does this mean to have a sighting on him? I think a lot of people hear that and think -- well, if you saw him, go get him. I mean, what does it mean?

PEREZ: Well, you know, this guy is a survivalist. And so, you know, one of the things that they have been doing is trying to figure out electronic records. They know that he's turned on his cell phone to make a phone call, for instance.

And because he seems to have a very good idea of how to hide here, they've been very careful. They've been trying to figure out how not to get too close so that he has a shot on them and then not on him. So, what we know -- they are not being very specific what kind of sighting but this seems to be much more of a closer sighting than some of the previous ones.

TAPPER: All right. Evan Perez, thank you so much for the update. Appreciate it.

Turning now to the world lead: how are ISIS fighters still advancing in Iraq even though hundreds of airstrikes continue to target them? According to the terrorists themselves, they were ready and on the move long before the bombs started falling. That's next.

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