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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Interview With North Carolina Congressman Mark Meadows; Ebola Concerns; Secret Service Director Resigns; "School Age" Kids Had Contact With Ebola Patient; Are Airports Ready to Deal with Ebola Threat?

Aired October 1, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: The Secret Service director out, Ebola in.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

In national news: There is no cure, there is no vaccine, and now the first case of Ebola in the United States, with a second patient being monitored and schoolchildren likely exposed. How did it get so bad so fast? Didn't health officials have months to prepare for this?

Plus, all we know is that the Ebola patient traveled by air from West Africa and made some connecting flights. The details of his travel though are still really a mystery. What about all of the other people on board who went on to other destinations? Who's keeping an eye on them?

And breaking now in national news, after a guy got into the White House with a knife and another guy got next to the president with a gun, time is up for the director of the Secret Service. But does today's departure of Julia Pierson make President Obama's life any safer?

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We begin, of course, with some breaking news in the national lead. Secret Service Director Julia Pierson stepping down after a string of disastrous security breaches. The latest revelation, a contractor who was allowed to ride in an elevator with President Obama at the CDC in Atlanta and he had a gun on him, a complete and utter breach of protocol.

Pierson's testimony on Capitol Hill yesterday of course did her no favors. She was pummeled by questions from members of Congress who questioned her about the fence jumper who managed to make his way across the White House lawn and into the executive mansion and then into the East Room before, finally, thankfully being stopped.

We are joined now by CNN's justice correspondent, Pamela Brown, and CNN senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta and justice reporter Evan Perez.

Mr. Acosta, let us start with you. How did this all play out?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, according to White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest, earlier this morning, the White House had confidence in Secret Service Director Julia Pierson, but obviously things changed during the course of the day.

Some senior Democratic lawmakers were starting to break ranks with the president, break ranks with this White House, and say that they did not have confidence in Julia Pierson. And then it was at a meeting earlier this afternoon with DHS Secretary Jeh Johnson that Julia Pierson offered her resignation and then following that meeting the president called Pierson to thank her for her many years of service.

Jake, you mentioned this latest security incident that we're hearing about that happened on September 16 during which a CDC contractor, security contractor was riding an elevator with President Obama during the president's appearance at the agency and that contractor was armed, violating Secret Service protocols. And the White House apparently was unaware of this until just yesterday.

I asked Josh Earnest about that, and here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Just ask you about this latest incident to have emerged. I guess it happened prior to the fence-jumping incident, the security contractor at the CDC who was in the elevator and armed in the presence of the president, in violation of Secret Service protocols. Did Director Pierson brief the president on that incident?

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Jim, I can tell you that, no, that the White House first learned of that incident yesterday shortly before it was reported by -- before it was publicly reported by news organizations.

ACOSTA: So, she did not tell him about that or the agency did not tell the White House about that until -- you didn't know about it until yesterday?

EARNEST: Until shortly before it was reported publicly, that's correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And, so, Jake, obviously the White House wants to see a better record when it comes to transparency and openness and the communication lines between the White House and Secret Service. I think that is going to be exhibit A as this internal review gets under way.

And as it's ongoing, Josh Earnest there saying during the briefing that at this point they don't want to pass too much judgment on why that did not occur, but obviously that is not how it's supposed to go.

TAPPER: But that is astounding. It is astounding that two weeks ago yesterday a man with a gun got next to President Obama on an elevator and the White House wasn't told about that, even though the Secret Service found out that day, the White House was not told about it until reporters started calling about it just before they broke the story yesterday afternoon.

Pamela Brown, our justice correspondent, Congressman Jason Chaffetz, he was asking questions of Director Pierson yesterday, asking her about -- he obviously knew about this other incident and he was asking her, does she brief the president every time there is a security breach? He wanted to see if she was honest about telling the president about it and he found out that either she lied to Congress and didn't tell the president.

Now we know the truth. She didn't tell the president about this incident.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I think it's causing a lot of outrage, Jake, and there's a lot of questions about whether she did mislead Congress and others, in light of the incident that we learned about after the hearing notably.

We found out about this latest incident before the September 19 incident involving Omar Gonzalez. And during the hearing yesterday, Pierson said that she briefs the president 100 percent of the time whenever there is a security breach. And she said she's only done it one time.

Let's take a listen to what she had to say in this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), UTAH: I asked you, what percentage of the time do you inform the president if his personal security has in any way, shape or form been breached?

JULIA PIERSON, DIRECTOR, SECRET SERVICE: Percent of the time? One hundred percent of the time, we would advise the president.

CHAFFETZ: You would advise the president?

PIERSON: Yes.

CHAFFETZ: In calendar year 2014 how many times has that happened??

PIERSON: I have not briefed him with the exception of one occasion for the September 19 incident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So there you heard it. She says this and then hours after this hearing, Jake, we find out about this other incident where a security contractor is in the elevator with the president with a gun on him, and the Secret Service didn't know about it until after that.

And so, as you point out, we heard from Josh Earnest that the White House didn't know about this. They found out through the media. She said only briefed the president on the September 19 incident, but not the other one.

So, I think it raises a lot of questions and it makes you wonder if she was too worried about covering sort of for herself and her reputation and her job, rather than protecting the president.

TAPPER: Exactly. What's more important? Protecting the job or protecting the president and his family?

Let me go to Evan Perez right now.

Evan, just putting yourself in the shoes of President Obama or White House Chief of Staff Denis McDonough, you find out that she's been keeping this from you, this very troubling elevator breach, there's no other choice, right?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: There's really no other choice, Jake. That's exactly what Jeh Johnson, the homeland security secretary, basically thought at the end of yesterday, because even at DHS, they have been repeatedly coming to the Secret Service and asking if there are any other incidents that they need to know about.

And the Secret Service basically tells them, no, you know everything. And that's why you see in his announcement today, he is announcing that his deputy, Alejandro Mayorkas, is now going to take the reins of the internal investigation. Until now, the Secret Service has basically been investigating itself and so that's no longer. DHS will take that over and we will see the results of that now probably in another month, according to the secretary.

And they felt that they were being misled not only by the Secret Service, but then they were passing on misleading information to Congress and to the White House, Jake.

TAPPER: Let me go right now. We have Congressman Mark Meadows on the phone. He's on the House Oversight Committee. He was part of yesterday's grilling of former Secret Service Director Pierson. And he is on the line with us from Asheville, North Carolina.

Congressman, are you surprised by how quickly this happened?

REP. MARK MEADOWS (R), NORTH CAROLINA: I am, Jake, surprised by how quickly this resignation happened.

Normally, these things take a little bit longer. It is a welcome announcement. It's good for the president, for the first family. It's good for the American people. Now, hopefully, what we will be able to do is change the culture that we have got to see. It's been played out on your show over and over again.

How can somebody come in through the front doors of the White House, the most secure residence in the world, and yet somehow it failed? So I'm glad to hear it, but we have got still work to do.

TAPPER: Do you think this is just the beginning? Is that what you're suggesting, that other people need to go from the Secret Service, not just Director Pierson?

MEADOWS: Well, I do think that there is a culture with some of the supervision and some of the leadership there that really needs to empower the rank and file. We have got some of the greatest law enforcement people that serve our

country with the Secret Service. But what we have to make sure of is that these decisions that were made, five rings of security, decisions each and every time that could have been made, and we heard more in the classified setting that would even cause me greater concern about that lack of decision-making that we have got to address

And I can tell you and the American people this is bipartisan. They will have the tools, they will have the ability to protect our president and the first family. We take it very seriously.

TAPPER: And we should reiterate, of course, there are a lot of hardworking, honorable men and women who work at the Secret Service. The question, of course, is largely about the management and training of the Secret Service, not the rank and file in that agency, that embattled agency.

Congressman Mark Meadows, thank you so much for your time.

There is another major story unfolding at the moment, of course. We have just learned the name of the first Ebola patient diagnosed in the United States -- his identity and who he might have exposed when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

In national news, we now know the name of the first man to ever be diagnosed with Ebola here in the United States. His name is Thomas Eric Duncan. And he is currently in serious condition in a Texas hospital. So far, the Centers for Disease Control has not been very transparent about this man's movement since he stepped foot on a plane from Africa. They will not say which flights he took.

Presumably, they think keeping this information from the public will keep you all from panicking, though, of course, some wonder if the government refusing to share information might cause some nervousness as well.

Here's what we do know about the patient so far. He left the Ebola hot spot in Liberia on September 19. He arrived in Dallas, Texas, the next day, but he didn't feel sick until four days later. Now, a couple of days after that, he sought treatment. But the hospital, Texas Presbyterian, did not realize he had this infectious disease Ebola, so they sent him back home with antibiotics.

He was therefore out amidst the public for two days after he clearly showed symptoms and went to the hospital. But, eventually, he got so sick, he went back to Texas Presbyterian on the 28th, Sunday, on his volition, and he was finally hospitalized and isolated.

CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins me now.

Sanjay, what is the latest on this patient's condition? DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we heard he

was in critical condition yesterday. We hear he's been upgraded, doing better, stable condition. Serious, but stable is how it's categorized now. We know he's not on a breathing machine or anything. He's able to talk.

He's communicating, even asking for food. That could be a very good sign, because typically a lot of patients, when they're very sick of Ebola, they kind of lose their appetite, they're very nauseated. So, the fact that he's asking food is a good sign.

But he's still -- you know, he's in isolation and he sounds like he's going to be there for sometime to come, Jake.

TAPPER: Now, Texas Governor Rick Perry spoke earlier today about this case and he said that some school-age children have been identified as having had contact with this patient. Is there extra concern for children who may have come in contact with the virus? Are they particularly vulnerable?

GUPTA: Well, you know, it's obviously just sad that children like this are exposed. The odds, I will say, first of all, still are very much on their side despite being contacts. This doesn't mean that they're going to get infected by any means. Sometimes, you know, when you think about young people and old people

their immune systems may not be quite as robust, so they may be a little bit more predisposed to this, but I think they're going to be treated like everyone else. They're going to have their temperature monitored twice a day for 21 days and see if anything happens, if they develop a fever, that may warrant them being tested for Ebola, as well.

TAPPER: Sanjay, do we have a rough idea of how many people might be at risk?

GUPTA: You know, we've asked that question, as well. And we put it in the lead there, Jake. These are challenging things to figure out. This contract tracing really trying to piece together someone's lives over not just a few hours, but now we know in this, a few days.

They're saying a handful when I've asked this question, and I don't know what that means and we know about these children, but perhaps a dozen more or so. I've heard 18 is a number, but these are all just guesses.

One thing I will point out is that, you know, when you are sick with the symptoms with Ebola, you are unlikely to be going out to public places, shopping malls and things like that, and being around tons of people. So, that could have worked in the favor of the general public that he probably was more likely to have gone home, gone to bed and not been out and about.

But the health care team and the first time he went to the hospital and the second time he went to the hospital and all of the people obviously in between. TAPPER: We have a picture now of this patient of Thomas Eric Duncan

-- there he is, a photograph of him. He's in serious condition in the Texas hospital.

Sanjay, I don't want to beat up on the hardworking men and women of Texas Presbyterian, but it does seem like a major mistake not having admitted Mr. Duncan to the hospital sooner. What have we learned about why that happened, why he was able to go back home for two days merely with antibiotics?

GUPTA: They screwed up, Jake. I mean, like you, I don't want to pile on either, but, you know, from the beginning you could tell there was something amiss here.

The first that we heard about this, they said, look, the patient did not disclose that he had been in Liberia in the hospital and did not ask. That sounded strange considering how important a question that is when it comes to stemming an outbreak.

I was here at the CDC a couple of months ago and that's what they talk about, we need to educate emergency room doctors, primary care doctors, to ask about travel histories and then to act upon that information. What they say now is that a nurse did ask the question, he did respond that he was in Liberia but then information wasn't transmitted to people who were making decisions about his care.

There's really no excuse for this, as much as we've talked about the complicated parts of stemming an outbreak, the contract-tracing, the vaccine trials, the new experimental therapies, this was a simple history that was not acted upon in an appropriate way and that shouldn't happen.

I mean, the one good thing that comes out of this is that you and I are talking about it -- I doubt someone is going to make this mistake again, Jake.

TAPPER: Well, we hope not.

Dr. Gupta, thank you so much.

We know there are a lot of questions out there about the Ebola virus, how it is spread, how you can protect yourself, what to do if you feel sick, CNN's medical team is here to help. Just use the #EbolaQandA on social media and we'll answer your questions.

Now, joining me now is Dr. Anthony Fauci. He's the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious diseases.

Dr. Fauci, thanks for joining us.

The hospital in Sanjay's words, screwed up. What lessons can the medical community take from this?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Well, the lesson is that you really have to stay head's up, particularly under the present circumstances and Sanjay said it very well, you have to take a travel history.

In this case, a travel history was taken but it wasn't communicated to the people who are making the decision. You know, the CDC has been trying really very hard to educate the public as well as people in clinics and emergency facilities with their announcements about the importance of when someone presents with symptoms and syndrome that is compatible with Ebola that it's essential and you asked them a simple question and what is your travel history.

And as Sanjay said, I don't think this mistake is going to happen again, and it's so obvious that everybody is aware of that.

TAPPER: I just want to make -- so you think it's clear that the CDC has given adequate instructions, the hospitals, doctors, nurses, EMTs, everyone, so that they know to be on the lookout for Ebola. I mean, because somehow this was missed even though the guy just got off a plane from Liberia.

FAUCI: Right. They have. There's no doubt. They have come out with announcements that keep coming out. They keep stressing it. It's all over their Web sites.

I don't think you could say the CDC has been at fault in not letting people know. They have been all over trying to get people to be aware of this. This was just a simple fault of human nature. It was a mistake. They dropped the ball, you don't want to pile on them and hopefully this will never happen again. But the CDC has been vigorously emphasizing the need for a travel history.

TAPPER: All right. Fair enough.

Now, I tend to believe that more information released to the public is better even for dampening down any potential panic. I understand that it's the job of the CDC and NIH to not get people agitated when there isn't a reason to be. But don't you think the CDC should release the names of the airlines and the flights that he flew, the places he visited during the two days between hospital visits? Shouldn't the public have a right to know? Wouldn't a more educated public be more vigilant if any of them get sick?

FAUCI: You know, Jake, there are two sides to that story. I agree with what the CDC did for the following reason: it is very clear when you trace back the chronology of this person's symptoms. This person was completely asymptomatic when he got on the plane and for several days after he got off the plane. And the fact remains that if you're without symptoms you're not going to pass on Ebola to anyone, and I think if the information is out there, you're going to have people being extraordinarily anxious. Was I on this plane? Was I in contact with this person when it was clear the person was in a state of physical health where he would not be transmitting it?

So, there really is an argument. One can have an opinion back and forth whether you think it was the right thing or not, but the argument for not releasing it is a pretty solid argument.

TAPPER: The White House says that the United States is not plan banning flights coming from the hot zones in West Africa where this epidemic is exploding. What would it take for that to happen, for flights to be banned?

FAUCI: You know, I'm not quite sure, Jake, what it would take, but you got to be careful about the difference of banning flights and making sure that you have a system where when someone is not allowed to get on a plane, if in fact, they have symptoms or a fever.

And that's exactly the point -- if you were in Monrovia right now and you went into an airport and you had a fever you would not get on a plane to be able to get anywhere, much less the United States. That works pretty well.

An asymptomatic person we all predicted that sooner or later that was going to happen, that someone was going to be infected with no symptoms and then wind up landing in a place like the United States and getting sick here. That was almost inevitable to happen, but the idea of completely banning flights is a major disruption that has enormous implications that might in a negative way, outweigh any benefit that you might have from it.

TAPPER: Dr. Anthony Fauci, thank you so much for your time, as always.

Much more on travel and Ebola -- people leaving Ebola hot spots are tested before they're allowed on a plane, as Dr. Fauci just referenced. But what happens if the screening stops once the passengers arrive in the United States? We'll take a look at whether U.S. airports are really ready to deal with the Ebola threat.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)