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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Ebola in America; Interview with Rep. Marsha Blackburn; UVA Suspect Charged In 2005 Rape Case; Sources: Brown's Blood Found In Officer's Car On Gun; ISIS Launches 15 Attacks Across Iraq
Aired October 20, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us. There's breaking news tonight on Ebola from the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta, as well as Emory University Hospital nearby.
Just before air time the CDC laid out new guidelines for preventing the spread of the virus. And from Emory we learned that another Ebola patient being treated there has recovered and has actually left the hospital.
Now all this at the end of a day that saw 43 people who came in contact with Ebola victim Thomas Duncan pass that vital three-week landmark without any symptoms and that also saw an entire country, Nigeria, declared Ebola-free.
But we are starting with new guidelines issued less than an hour ago. For that we go to our 360 MD Sanjay Gupta.
So, Sanjay, I mean, I saw these guidelines. They look kind of like the old guidelines that Doctors Without Borders, MSF, has been doing. What did they require?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're very specific now on their requirements. You're absolutely right. This is going to sound familiar. And let me just preface it by saying that if you -- if you listen closely to what Dr. Frieden said earlier today, he pointed out that the Dallas hospital was using the correct CDC guidelines. These are the guidelines that they had issued. They're using it correctly, but those guidelines were inadequate.
And I think this could mean an important, Anderson, to get back to. Here's what they're saying now. A couple of things. First of all, anybody who's going to be taking care of a patient with Ebola has to be fully trained and have to have that training proven, some sort of competency training. There's going to be people there on site who are basically going to observe people both putting on and taking off that garb just like the Doctors Without Borders.
And finally, I think the most important point, Anderson, something you and I talked about a lot over the last several days, is there can't be any skin showing. There'll be no skin exposed when the garb is put on under these new guidelines. Again, seemingly a very basic point with all that everybody has learned about Ebola and how it is transmitted through bodily fluids that get on the skin. An important thing would be to cover the skin. That's what's going to happen now. COOPER: Yes. I mean, I honestly just don't understand why their
guidelines weren't like this from the beginning. I mean, again I go back to MSF, Doctors Without Borders. This organization has been battling this now for a long time. And just about every relief group that I know of in the West -- operating in Liberia, or Guinea or Sierra Leone, they are all using the standards set by Doctors Without Borders. The idea that the CDC and Dr. Frieden was very vocal in saying, yes, it would be fine to have your skin showing in some cases depending on, you know, the level of the infection that the person had.
GUPTA: He was trying to make a distinction. He was saying, look, if you don't have intensive contact with a patient, if the patient is not particularly sick at the time, you don't have to worry about it or you don't have to worry as much about it, I should say. If you have much more contact with the patient during the time when they're sick, you need to dress at a higher legal of protection.
The problem is, Anderson, I think you're alluding to this, is that it's very difficult to sort of pinpoint exactly when someone is going to be more at risk. I mean, you know, someone who is taking care of a patient who is starting to get nauseated, could they potentially be at risk if that person was to have vomiting, that sort of thing?
It's just -- it's too loose. And the point is this, that if you're taking care of a sick patient with Ebola, you should have your skin covered. And this whole sort of distinction that they're trying to make made no sense. And I think surprisingly, and I think this is going to be important, Dr. Frieden has sort of conceded that.
The guidelines that were existing up until this point were inadequate. And I think it's -- I think they were, you and I talked about it, and I think that's now going to be corrected.
COOPER: Sanjay, stay with us because I want to bring in senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen and also former CDC disease detective Dr. Seema Yasmin. But I also want to play before you part of my interview with Briana Aguirre, the nurse at Texas Health Presbyterian who I talk to last week. She explains the lack of protective gear that she and fellow nurses had when treating Ebola patients.
COOPER: Was your neck exposed?
BRIANA AGUIRRE, TEXAS HEALTH PRESBYTERIAN NURSE: Absolutely, yes. There's a --
COOPER: What part of your neck?
AGUIRRE: Well, the zipper ended about here on me, and the hood ended about here on me. And, you know, this part right here made a triangle that was open. It was -- it was completely open. And the very first time that they were instructing me how to put this on is exactly the point when I said, why would my neck be exposed? Why do I have on two pairs of gloves, tape, a plastic suit covering my
whole body, two hoods, a total of three pairs of booties including the one on my tieback suit, an apron. And my entire body is covered in at least two to three layers of plastic and my neck was hanging out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I mean, Elizabeth, I guess I just don't understand why these protocols were not put in place months ago. Doctors Without Borders, again, has been using protocol like this for years now. Has the CDC said anything about why they're so late to the game with this?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know what, Anderson, I had the same question. I mean, Red Cross has also been observing these protocols when I was in Liberia in September.
COOPER: I mean, Dr. Frieden observed these protocols when he was touring Liberia.
COOPER: You know, touring Liberia, as Sanjay pointed out before.
COHEN: You know, I think Sanjay sort of, you know, really hit the nail on the head which was that they were sort of looking at this on paper and saying well, certain exposures, maybe you're not really that close to the patient and you don't need to be as completely covered. But in practice, you know, once you're taking care of a patient, it -- you know, it can be a millisecond from not so much exposure to a lot of exposure.
So I think that -- and here you can see that these folks are completely, completely covered. And this is in Africa. And so I think what happened was that they didn't do these guidelines in collaboration with Doctors Without Borders, with folks who had actually been on the ground.
Remember, they came up with these guidelines before they started treating patients in the United States. And so I think one criticism of the CDC has been is that they're very smart on paper but that people don't take care of patients on paper. They take care of them in reality. And I think one lesson that may have learned here -- I hope it was learned -- is that you should collaborate with people who have actually done the work.
COOPER: Right. You're right.
COHEN: And the minute that Emory started taking care of patients, they should have immediately collaborated with them back in August and said, hey, guys, look at our guidelines. How did you tweak them? Because I will tell you, Emory and Nebraska did not follow these guidelines. They added to them. They tweaked them.
COHEN: So that they were more useful. CDC should have collaborated with them.
COOPER: Sanjay, over the weekend, Dr. Anthony Fauci, who obviously a highly respected guy, said that the earlier guidelines were based on a World Health Organization model for care in remote places often outdoors and without intensive training for health care workers. Does that make sense to you? I mean, wouldn't a place like that require even more stringent protocol?
GUPTA: Yes, I mean, I think so. And I heard those same comments from Dr. Fauci.
I think what he was referring to was some of the conditions where people may have been screening patients. It was not entirely clear they had Ebola. Even in those situations, I'm not sure what exactly the guidelines are for the WHO. But I think that, you know, the risk/reward sort of relationship I think is what he was talking about.
The idea that you don't want to make these protective gears so cumbersome that they're challenging to put on and off in remote situations, that you can't train people to do it, so you make it as simple as possible while still protecting people, but again the problem here is that those guidelines here did not protect people, did not offer adequate protection. And, you know, I think that's why these two nurses became infected.
COOPER: And Dr. Yasmin, I mean, you've worked for the CDC as a disease detective. Is this typical to see guidelines revised multiple times?
DR. SEEMA YASMIN, STAFF WRITER, DALLAS MORNING NEWS: It can happen, Anderson, in such a quickly changing situation. We've worked so far on guidelines that we had for about 38 years. Clearly this is the first time we're seeing Ebola, though, in the setting of a highly sophisticated American hospital where things like intubation are happening, things like dialysis are happening.
Ebola patients in West Africa don't typically get those types of high level, high risk procedures. And so we do have to change things as the situation changes.
But Anderson, I can't speak enough to the fact that it's not just the gear. It's the training.
YASMIN: You have to have that training.
COOPER: And, I mean, Elizabeth, to Dr. Yasmin's point, I mean, training like this it takes a long time. And practice takes a long time. I mean, and, you know, this hospital, Presbyterian Hospital, was unlucky enough to get the first patient, but I think a lot of hospitals across the country would have failed this test.
COHEN: Absolutely, Anderson. I was actually speaking with someone from a major hospital in this country and she said, I've got to get off the phone, we're doing our Ebola training. And I said, when did you start that? And she's like, last -- you know, last week. I was like, wow, you're kidding me.
I mean, the CDC put out e-mails saying, hey, guys, get ready, back in August. And here was a big hospital that was just starting up now because, of course, what happened in Texas. And Dr. Yasmin is right, the training is crucial. And handing someone a pamphlet or having them watch a video is not enough. It needs to be person-to-person training.
COOPER: Dr. Yasmin, I mean, how long does -- I mean, how long do you think somebody needs to be trained? And again, it can't just be one -- you know, one session with a breakout sessions or something on a weekend. How long is training, you think, necessary?
YASMIN: It can take days, Anderson. And it has to be repetitive. It has to be a session where you learn how to do it and then where you have multiple times to practice, to be critiqued and to make mistakes. And we all make mistakes.
Another key point, though, is to make sure that the equipment does fit you. We keep hearing about these N-95 masks that you put over your face that protect you. You have to be tested -- fit-tested for those before you can have them. And when I was at CDC I had to undergo N-95 fit testing. And guess what, the masks don't fit me.
I had to have an alternative type of mask. Again, we're talking about a situation where these things need to be prepared in advance. You can't have somebody like me turn up one day and then the N-95 mask does not fit them. We have to have these plans in place and have many opportunities for health care workers to practice.
COOPER: Dr. Seema Yasmin, appreciate it. Elizabeth Cohen as well.
Sanjay, stick around because I want to ask you next about something that a medical question, a political controversy certainly, and what many believe was just simple common sense. The notion of banning or restricting travel out of West Africa hot zones and into this country.
Now a lot of people call it simple common sense, others say not so simple at all and actually may hurt the war against Ebola in those countries.
Tennessee Congressman Marsha Blackburn is also going to join us.
Also tonight a look at some of the wilder Ebola conspiracy theories that some people have been spreading including one by Congresswoman Blackburn's colleague on Capitol Hill.
So as a quick reminder, make sure you set your DVR so you can watch 360 whenever you like.
We'll be right back.
COOPER: The Ebola outbreak has done a lot to focus attention on problems at local hospitals, the CDC, the entire public health system. "Keeping Them Honest," though, it's also given a bunch of people
licensed to let their conspiracy flags fly, venting a whole lot of dubious theories, to say the least, and to be blunt, about a whole lot of kind of toxic crazy stuff as well.
In our next hour tonight, you're going to hear from a doctor on the front lines in Liberia doing the real work that people there and people everywhere need done.
First, though, the others. Most of them far from the action, hitching everyone's fear of the virus to their own pet theories of why the virus is spreading. There's the anti-vaccine activist who says the vaccine makers are behind it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some people in industry, government and the World Health Organization did not want the Ebola outbreak to be confined to several nations in Africa because that would fail to create a lucrative global market for mandated use of fast-tracked Ebola vaccines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now there's also the Liberian newspaper saying Ebola is a U.S. bio-weapon designed to depopulate the planet. The headline asking the question, "Ebola, AIDS Manufactured by Western Pharmaceutical, U.S., DOD?"
Now full disclosure, we don't know much about the Liberian press and that particular paper's record of reporting, if you want to call it that, but we do know they don't have a monopoly on crazy conspiracy theories thanks to some elected representatives right here in America.
Like Texas GOP Congressman Steve Stockman. He's wondering why Ebola made it into the country and he's wondering, just wondering, whether it's because President Obama wanted it that way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEVE STOCKMAN (R), TEXAS: It's just bizarre there's not enough action up front. I'm wondering if that's intentional in order to create a greater crisis, to use it as a blunt force to say well, in order to solve this crisis, we're going to have to take control of the economy, individuals and so forth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Again, that's a member of the U.S. Congress. We asked him to come on the program to expound on that theory, he didn't return our call.
Others have a somewhat different twist on the "Obama loves Ebola" theory. Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham, take it away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RUSH LIMBAUGH, CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST: The reason why a bunch of people don't think we should be banning flights is because we kind of are responsible for this. And therefore, if Ebola ends up here, well, it's only payback, folks, slavery, it's only payback. And unfortunately, we have elected people in positions of leadership who think this way. The president is one of them.
LAURA INGRAHAM, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: It's his father's rage against colonialism as Dinesh D'Souza wrote about. And maybe this is a way to continue to atone for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now you can decide for yourself what to make of that and all the rest. What they all have in common is not one of them has anything to do with the brave people actually fighting Ebola nor the people living with it or dying of it.
Meanwhile, a very real debate is heating up tonight over travel bans and whether they're needed to stop the further spread of Ebola in the U.S.
Chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta is back and joining us, Republican Congressman Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee.
Congresswoman, thanks so much for being with us.
REP. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R), TENNESSEE: Sure. Nice to be with you.
COOPER: You're -- you're not alone in your support of restricting travel from countries affected by the Ebola outbreak. I mean, your fellow members of Congress feel the exact same way.
All the folks I've talked to in Liberia, with Doctors Without Borders and other groups, they all say a travel ban will make getting our personnel, meaning Doctors Without Borders and other groups, in and out, the hundreds of people they have moving around and the tons of supplies they have going in and out will make it very difficult. Charter flights aren't enough.
To that you say what?
BLACKBURN: To that I say there should be a way to solve this problem. We all know to successfully deal with the Ebola outbreak, what you have to do is isolate it. The best place to isolate it, West Africa. Certainly charter flights, military flights, there are other ways to get supplies in and out.
I also feel like for those 13,000 visas that have been issued and people in the affected zone are wanting to come to the U.S., maybe you're looking at a quarantine there, establishing something like a forward operating base and individuals who want to exit those countries, the affected area, these three countries, would come in for a 21-day quarantine prior to leaving the country and then they -- on day 22, they're free to two wherever they have the confidence that they can move forward, that they are Ebola-free. And I think, Anderson, I think that's a -- it's worthy of discussion.
It's a good work around. When I was at the CDC three weeks back working with Dr. Frieden on some other issues and we discussed Ebola, I said, you know how -- if you're not going to do a travel ban, how about thinking something else.
BLACKBURN: You know, certainly the checks at the airports are one of those steps.
COOPER: I --
BLACKBURN: We have to give the American people confidence that they can trust us. Right now the confidence is pretty low.
COOPER: I get the idea of limiting visas for people from the affected countries.
COOPER: And making it harder for people to do that or having people kind of try to prove that they haven't had any contact, but how would quarantining people in Liberia, or Guinea or Sierra Leone work, who would actually oversee that given that they don't even have enough personnel actually on the ground, you know, driving ambulances and treating people with Ebola let alone overseeing a quarantine? How would that work?
BLACKBURN: I fully appreciate and understand that, and I think working with organizations like Samaritans Purse, which my church congregation has supported for years, or Doctors Without Borders, the military who is --
COOPER: Right, but Doctors Without Borders --
BLACKBURN: -- turning out to be in charge there.
COOPER: Doctors Without Borders right now says they're at a breaking point. That they -- they cannot do anymore.
BLACKBURN: I fully appreciate that. I appreciate that. But as I was saying, working with them to say what are the protocols you think would be best. How do we best implement something like this? The point --
COOPER: But I'm telling you what they say is no, don't do a travel ban. I mean, I talked to Doctors Without Borders last --
BLACKBURN: They're saying not do a travel ban, but they haven't discussed doing some kind of limitation or quarantine there. Anderson, we're going to have to take some type steps to have a way to
more closely isolate this. I think the news that came from Nigeria, no additional -- Senegal, no additional outbreaks. That is so positive. The good news we got out of Texas today --
BLACKBURN: -- that is so positive. But when you look at the total number of people that have been affected, the escalation rate that is there. The distrust of the American --
COOPER: Sure. I agree. I understand.
BLACKBURN: New York University putting up a travel ban, I think it's time for us to say how do we address this proactively --
COOPER: Let me --
BLACKBURN: Go ahead.
COOPER: Let me bring in Sanjay Gupta here.
COOPER: Sanjay, I mean, can you -- what's your belief on a travel ban? Could it -- would it make it harder, because I mean, you've talked to folks with Doctors Without Borders like I have. They all seem to say it would it harder to contain the outbreak in West Africa. And until the outbreak itself is contained in West Africa, that's the number one priority.
GUPTA: Yes. And I think that's true. And I think if you look at the rationale behind that, I think it will make sense. And I'll explain that to you.
But I think Congresswoman Blackburn, I think what you're saying I think is a little different now than a travel ban because I was listening to your comments at the hearings the other day and it sounded like at that point you were very in favor of a travel ban, asking people to take their temperature for 21 days before they leave is not a travel ban.
But anyway, with respect to travel ban specifically, part of the problem is when we talk about porous borders, I think people think we're talking about the United States. And I think what Dr. Frieden and Dr. Fauci, who are head of the CDC and head of the NIH Infectious Diseases think it's West Africa we're talking about. People would leave those countries, go to other countries in West Africa, possibly fly out of those countries and as a result be hard to track and trace.
They could go to another busy city, in New Delhi and Shanghai somewhere. And then it becomes a question of people over there exposed, are you banning travel from those countries as well?
Here's the point. It doesn't really seem to work. And these things have been tried before. You can understand again the sentiment as to why it seems logical, but it just doesn't work.
Simultaneously, and this is perhaps a bigger problem, Anderson, to your point, is that no matter how much you try and address a problem, if you institute a travel ban, it's going to worsen the problem in West Africa. You're just not going to be able to get the same resources in.
I've been over there. And people have seen -- said this over and over again. So you are going to make that problem worse. Already they're talking about 10,000 cases a week. If that number gets worse, the whole world is going to feel the impact of that.
BLACKBURN: Anderson, if I could -- if I could add something there, one of the reasons I think you have to look at a travel ban or a quarantine is this. You know, you'll say, well, it doesn't work. People are going to get out of these countries anyway. Other African nations have implemented a travel ban on this affected region.
And to the American people who are listening to this, they say, oh, really? We don't need laws or the rule of law or rules or regulations because not everybody will apply by this?
COOPER: I guess I just don't understand how --
BLACKBURN: Try to break the rules?
COOPER: Right. I mean, A, on the travel ban, again, I haven't made up my mind on this, I'm not taking a position. But every expert I've talked to who is actually working on the ground, to a person says this is going to make it harder to get personnel in and out who need to get there. Doctors Without Borders has 300 personnel on the ground on rotating shifts and tons of supplies. And that's just one group.
Samaritan's Purse has a lot of good people as well. And I still don't understand, I mean, you name Doctors Without Border and Samaritans Purses are somehow going to oversee some sort of a quarantine of all the people --
BLACKBURN: No, I did not -- I did not say that.
COOPER: But who would, though?
BLACKBURN: I said I'm certain they would have ideas on -- that could be implemented just like with the CDC guidance. We should have been listening to them early on for the initial guidance.
COOPER: Right. But there's not enough people on the ground or money --
BLACKBURN: May sound abhorrent of that process.
COOPER: But there's not enough people on the ground or money being given right now. BLACKBURN: No. But, OK, but look we're sending -- we're sending the
U.S. military. I have 1500 constituents that are getting ready to go over there. With Ft. Campbell. And will be a part of this process.
BLACKBURN: Building these hospitals and serving as a support agency. And I can tell you there are a lot of people that are not happy about that. But they do feel like that it is imperative that we find a way to limit travel --
COOPER: But you don't want U.S. military personnel quarantining West Africans.
BLACKBURN: No, I don't.
COOPER: Right. So --
BLACKBURN: I don't.
COOPER: You've yet to name anybody who's actually going to oversee this quarantine?
BLACKBURN: And you know what? We supposedly have a czar who is going to be working on this now. We have individuals who are tasked with overseeing public health. We have an HHS --
COOPER: So you're saying let them come up with that.
BLACKBURN: -- and DHS assistant secretary who do not -- that we haven't heard anything out of.
BLACKBURN: I mean, they're supposedly dealing with bioterrorism. This is a problem we can solve.
COOPER: All right.
BLACKBURN: Do I have every working order of it right now? Absolutely not. But I think we've got a lot of good people that can figure this out because --
COOPER: All right, Congresswoman.
BLACKBURN: -- we're here to work and help solve the problem, the American people need to restore some trust.
COOPER: Congresswoman Blackburn, appreciate you being on. Sanjay, as well.
BLACKBURN: Absolutely. Good to be with you.
COOPER: All right. Thank you.
Coming up next, more breaking news. Press charges in a nine-year-old case against a leading suspect in Hannah Graham's disappearance. This case is moving fast. We have the details ahead.
COOPER: Welcome back. We have more breaking tonight. New charges against Jesse Matthew who is suspected on the disappearance of University of Virginia sophomore Hannah Graham. They are in connection with the alleged abduction and sexual assault nearly 10 years ago. A case that police say forensically links him to another female college student who vanished from the same area as Graham.
The 2005 incident happened in Fairfax, Virginia. The charges today one count each of abduction with intent to defile, sexual assault and attempted murder. And as that's unfolding authorities near Charlottesville are working to determine whether human remains found over the weekend are in fact those of Hannah Graham.
Joining us from Charlottesville Jean Casarez who has been working all the angles on this case from the beginning.
So what do we know about this 2005 case that connects Jesse Matthew to Hannah's -- to Hannah Graham.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the first thing we know is that it was fall 2005. Ironically, all these things seemed to happen in the fall. It was Fairfax City, which is northeast of right here in Charlottesville, and it was 26-year-old young woman that was walking from a grocery store.
And the prosecutors now are saying that Jesse Matthew grabbed her from behind and dragged her and then allegedly sexually assaulted her. But we also had heard in the past that the perpetrator fled.
Well, now for the first time, and I think this is a big headline today from this indictment that was returned, attempted capital murder is the first charge.
So prosecutors are saying that if Jesse Matthew allegedly fled, that he didn't do so intentionally that the intent was to kill her, but she survived and she is now an alleged sexual assault victim that, if prosecuted, can testify in court that that is her perpetrator.
COOPER: And the human remains that were found over the weekend, have authorities said when they're going to know whether or not in fact they are Hannah Graham for sure?
CASAREZ: No. You know, Anderson, this is a very difficult crime scene. This is skeletal remains and they are working all throughout the day, and I was even told by law enforcement that if they could work through the night, they would do that, too.
They're standing guard around the area, but the skeletal remains were amongst the entire field in the area, and they're basically putting together a skeleton, so it is taking a long time.
But the net result will be that it will be processed by the chief forensic medical examiner here in Virginia to, number one, determine who the remains are and then also the cause and manner of death if they can determine a cause of death, very difficult when you're dealing with remains like this.
COOPER: All right, Jean Casarez, appreciate it. We wanted to try to learn more about efforts to identify remains as well as other investigative work and tying together what could be several different cases right now.
We're joined by forensic scientist, Lawrence Kobilinsky, from New York's John Jay College of Criminal Justice. So we know Hannah Graham disappeared five weeks ago. Is it possible for remains to already be skeletal at five weeks?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: No question about it. Depending upon the environmental conditions, depending upon temperature, for example, depending upon insect and small and large animal predation, no question a body can be fully skeletonized, advance decomposition in five weeks. I was not surprised.
COOPER: That's if a body is left out on the surface.
KOBILINSKY: Yes, and not only that, but remember, we heard Jean Casarez talk about bones scattered all around. Good indication of animals. Large animals, they'll take a bone, move 400, 500 feet away from the site of the body.
COOPER: How long does identification like this take?
KOBILINSKY: Well, the anthropologists they know just from the skull and whatever they have, they know the gender. They know the ethnicity. They know the approximate height. There's a lot you can tell just from looking at the bone.
COOPER: But if you don't have -- I don't want to get too gory, but if you don't have the soft tissue, isn't it harder to determine the cause of death?
KOBILINSKY: There's no question about it. Exactly, exactly, so yes, it's going to take a little time. Ultimately it may be DNA from bone. That's been done. That's not a problem. It could take an extra couple of weeks until we get results.
COOPER: The other question, of course, is if the environment has, you know, already caused whoever it is to become a skeleton, if it is in fact Hannah Graham, after just five weeks, that other DNA from the perpetrator, would that be gone? I mean, would there be DNA under fingernails? Would there be DNA on any clothing that was found?
KOBILINSKY: If she had been sexually assaulted, we wouldn't know it, not from the skeleton, clearly. If she scratched her assailant, there might still be DNA attached from the fingernails. Because they found these black pants that are consistent with what she had been wearing, there very well may be a semen stain and that semen contains DNA, which is going to be stable.
COOPER: So clothing lasts longer -- KOBILINSKY: Much.
COOPER: -- than human tissue.
KOBILINSKY: DNA in any body cavity deteriorates rapidly. On clothing, outside of the body, it stays around.
COOPER: All right, Lawrence Kobilinsky, thanks very much. For more on the story and others, you can go to cnn.com.
Up next, we have details about forensic evidence in the shooting of Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson in Ferguson, Missouri. And how Officer Wilson's reported account of that shooting is different from what witnesses say. Details on that coming up.
COOPER: Crime and punishment tonight, newly leaked details about the investigation into the fatal shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown are adding to the already high tensions in Ferguson, Missouri.
As you know a grand jury has been hearing testimony in secret about what happened when the unarmed teenager crossed paths with Officer Darren Wilson on that residential street in August.
The details of that were leaked and they contain crucial forensic evidence that the jury will weigh in deciding whether to indict Officer Wilson. Brown's family and many other people in Ferguson have made it clear they won't settle for anything other than an indictment of the officer. Sara Sidner has the latest.
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the new normal in Ferguson, protests night and day for the past 73 days. Their number one demand -- justice and to them that means the indictment and arrest of Officer Darren Wilson, who shot and killed unarmed teenager, Michael Brown, August 9th.
Tensions are high again after new details about the investigation were leaked by a federal source to "The New York Times" indicating forensic evidence may mean potential civil rights charges are unlikely. U.S. law enforcement sources told CNN Brown's blood was found on Wilson's gun, inside Wilson's patrol car and on his uniform.
DANNY CEVALLOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What that does is that tends to support any testimony that there was some kind of scuffle in the police car, and if so, that tends to support Officer Wilson's testimony and his justification for using deadly force.
SIDNER: Early on Brown's friends said there was a scuffle, but that Wilson was the aggressor.
DORIAN JOHNSON, MICHAEL BROWN'S FRIEND: He pulled up on the side of us. He tried to thrust his door open, but we were so close to it that it ricocheted on us and it bounced back to him. I guess that got him a little upset as he was trying to choke my friend. And he was trying to get away then the officer then reached out and grabbed his arm to pull him into the car.
SIDNER: CNN legal analyst, Danny Cevallos, says the newly revealed forensic evidence only goes so far.
CEVALLOS: Ultimately that officer has to come up with justification not for firing his gun the first time, but for each and every bullet that came out of his firearm, whether at the car or away from the car.
CASAREZ: Whatever happens, police tell CNN, they are preparing, especially after hearing this time and again from protesters in the streets.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If there's not an indictment, excuse my French, all hell's going to break loose.
SIDNER (on camera): Are you worried that there's going to be serious violence?
SGT. BRIAN SCHELLMAN, ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE: Again, we're constantly looking at those things. I believe it was five shootings in August.
SIDNER: During the protests.
SCHELLMAN: Yes, during the protests that came out of that and then also to protect businesses and the property and the citizens who live in the area.
SIDNER (voice-over): Protesters also have plans.
AMY HUNTER, RACIAL JUSTICE DIRECTOR, YWCA: Everybody is planning for whatever the grand jury is decides. I think certainly there are lots of us who are planning peaceful protests should it not be indicted. Certainly there are other people who have other ideas at hand.
SIDNER: Sara Sidner, CNN, Ferguson, Missouri.
COOPER: Joining me are Anthony Gray, attorney for Michael Brown's family and Ben Crump's co-counsel, and also CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Mark O'Mara, who represented George Zimmerman in the killing of Trayvon Martin.
Anthony, this new information that Sara just reported, that Michael Brown's blood was found on Officer Wilson's gun, inside his police car and on the officer's uniform, does that change your contention of what happened that day at all?
ANTHONY GRAY, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL BROWN'S FAMILY: Absolutely not. It actually confirms exactly what Dorian Johnson said took place on that day. We've always contended from the very first day, Anderson, that there were two separate events. Each event deserves its own evaluation in terms of the amount of force that was used on each occasion.
COOPER: So the scuffle in the police car by the police car and then what happened afterward?
GRAY: Absolutely. And the inside of the car event is exactly as Dorian had described it. You know, Officer Darren Wilson, it sounds to me as though he assaulted Mike Brown Jr. with his door and then after that he assaulted him with his hands. Imagine Mike Brown at this point, he's the one that's fearful for his life. You know, Officer Wilson --
COOPER: You're saying that based solely on what -- on what his friend has said, Dorian Gray?
GRAY: And also on Mike Brown Jr.'s subsequent behavior. Once he broke loose from Officer Darren Wilson's grip, he ran away. Obviously that's an indication of fear. I believe he was fighting for his life at the door of Officer Wilson's vehicle trying to get away.
GRAY: And the proof of that is when he got away he began to run. So that's not a big speculatory conclusion for me to draw based on what he said.
COOPER: Mark, what about that? I mean, are there two separate and distinct events legally speaking?
MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, quick answer yes. First of all, I don't like the idea that information like this is being released piecemeal again. We tried to not do this and just allow speculation in trying to put one piece of the puzzle end somewhere.
But there's one thing that he said that I fully agree with which is that they are two somewhat separate events. What happened at the car certainly informed what was going to happen afterwards.
If in fact there was an argument one way or the other, Michael Brown was inside that car. Dorian believed he was dragged inside the car. That has questions of believability in my opinion.
But once there was an assault of a police officer at the car and once there was a shot fired, those two independent events required Officer Wilson to then get Mike Brown under control. So leaving the car certainly was justified by Wilson.
The shooting has to be justified in and of itself. If Mike Brown was, as Mr. Gray suggests, was running away and not coming back towards, if that was the only fact that existed then he would have been shot in the back, and we know he was facing Brown -- facing Wilson.
So we just have to wait and let the grand jury do their job. And if it gets to a regular jury, they'll look at all the facts and speculating now is just a bad thing.
COOPER: Anthony, what do you make of the fact that information is being leaked from this grand jury?
GRAY: Well, it is disturbing. It's coming out, and it seems like the way that it's being postured to the narrative and to the media, this notion that somehow Officer Wilson was justified in his conduct.
We said all along it was the final event. It was the final event that has the world in an uproar, not anything that happened at the vehicle, so now we're isolating our attention to a part of this whole situation --
COOPER: So you think the information --
GRAY: -- already conceded to.
COOPER: You think the information that's being released is information, which some people believe supports Officer Wilson's account?
GRAY: Just like your other guest just said, Mr. O'Mara just stated, that somehow this fits into Officer Wilson's state of mind after he got out of the vehicle. When all of us know once Mike Brown turned around, six independent witnesses said he opened up his arms, he had his hands up to show that he was unarm.
And that he was not -- had any weapon on him and yet at that point you hit the reset button. It doesn't matter what happened moments before that. When your hands go up, the threat is over with and Darren Wilson should have responded accordingly, but instead he fired his weapon and that's criminal in nature.
COOPER: Anthony Gray, appreciate it. Sorry for the technical problems, Mark O'Mara's satellite went down. We apologize for that.
Just ahead, we have breaking news out of Iraq. ISIS launching nearly simultaneous attacks, a bold move as it tries to gain control of more country, more land.
Plus Monica Lewinsky putting herself in the spotlight, calling herself patient zero in the epidemic of cyberbullying.
COOPER: Tonight's other breaking news, ISIS is renewing efforts to take control of Kurdish-held territory in Northern Iraq. Today ISIS fighters launched 15 nearly simultaneous attacks on Kurdish forces. The terrorist group controls more than a dozen cities in Iraq despite ongoing airstrikes by the U.S. and its allies.
Meantime, in Northern Syria, two ISIS car bombers detonated their explosives inside Kobani, which essentially remains under siege. Today, Turkish officials cleared the way for Peshmerga fighters from Iraq to use their territory to launch attacks against ISIS.
Chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, joins me now with the latest. So these attacks on Kurdish forces by ISIS, what do we know about them? JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Listen, they were massive and they were ambitious, 15 attacks near simultaneous happening without warning and using that unique combination that ISIS is capable of, military style assaults in some places and suicide terror attacks in others.
This is what we've been talking about for a long time here. It's a group unlike any you've seen before. It operates like an army, but also like a terror group. And it's showing in effect that it has not been cowed by the U.S.-led air campaign.
COOPER: They have also had this very effective tactic in some places of driving a vehicle laden with explosives into a facility, exploding it up, and then sending one or two more vehicles in or suicide bombers in following to basically, you know, gain even deeper access and blow more things up.
SCIUTTO: They have. And it's a classic al Qaeda tactic that's been used in other terror attacks in Saudi Arabia, in Afghanistan, elsewhere. You know, even against western facilities as well. You gain entry and you kill a lot more people inside or capture them and a tactic they've used with success against Iraqi military installations in Iraq as well.
COOPER: It's also interesting to me that they're able to do 15 coordinated attacks. I mean, given, I guess, it's a sign of what little intense capabilities the U.S. has on the ground in the region.
SCIUTTO: I think it's a sign of that. It's also a sign that, yes, you have an air campaign under way, but those U.S. war planes and coalition war planes they're not flying close air support for all these Kurdish units and Iraqi units at all times. That's one thing.
But it also maybe a sign of another thing because I've been told by U.S. military officials that ISIS has changed its tactics, the way it moves, the way it communicates. It's moving in smaller groups, not in convoys that are as big.
Because they know they're being watched either by war planes and by surveillance planes so clearly knowing that, they operated differently here so that they could get in in effect under the radar.
COOPER: Jim Sciutto, thanks so much.
Let's get the latest on other stories we're following. Susan Hendricks has a 360 News and Business Bulletin -- Susan.
SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the accused ring leader of the 2012 attack on the U.S. diplomatic complex in Benghazi, Libya, pleads not guilty in a Washington federal courtroom. Akmed Salim Abdul Khatallah faces 18 charges including murder. Four Americans were killed in that attack including Ambassador Christopher Stevens.
Pennsylvania State Police say blood stains found during the search for trooper shooting suspect, Eric Frein are not his, but they believe a woman spotted Frein armed with a rifle and mud on his face in a wooded area northeast of Pennsylvania while she was out walking on Friday night.
Also Monica Lewinsky is back. The former White House intern who famously had an affair with then-President Bill Clinton, joined Twitter today, and then gave an emotional speech in Philadelphia vowing to end cyber bullying. She calls herself patient zero for online harassment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MONICA LEWINSKY, HAD AFFAIR WITH PRESIDENT CLINTON: It feels like a punch in the gut, as if a stranger walked up to you on the street and punched you hard and sharp in the gut. I would go online, read in a paper or see on TV people referring to me as tramp, slut, whore, tart, bimbo, floozy, even spy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENDRICKS: That, of course, Monica Lewinsky talking about what she went through in the aftermath of that affair.
Also today Britain's royal family revealed that the duke and duchess of Cambridge will welcome their second child in April. The brother (inaudible) will be fourth in line, Anderson, to the throne.
COOPER: All right, Susan, thanks very much.
In the next hour of 360, we have breaking news in the battle against Ebola. The CDC is revealing those new guidelines for health care workers, but the new guidelines pretty much like the old guidelines for just about all the groups working on this for months. New developments on that just ahead.
COOPER: Good evening. Breaking news on Ebola tonight from the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta, new guidelines for preventing the spread of the virus, it comes on a very good day in a very tough war.
Today, 43 people who came in contact with Ebola victim, Thomas Duncan passed that vital three-week landmark without symptoms and an entire country, Nigeria in West Africa, was declared Ebola free. That's the good news.
For more the latest on all of that, let's go first to Atlanta and medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen. So let's talk about these new guidelines, what exactly are they? Because to me, my reading of them is they sound an awful lot like the guidelines "Doctors Without Borders" and other groups have been following for months now.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. When I saw them, I said to myself, this is what I saw when I was in Liberia.