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Fiery Debate Night in Florida; Kay Hagan A No Show at NC Debate; Autopsy: Michael Brown Shot at Close Range

Aired October 22, 2014 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, let's get to "Inside Politics" on NEW DAY with John King, who is making a special appearance in the studio this morning.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST, "INSIDE POLITICS": Yes, you asked for a little security help of Mr. Cuomo so I'm here. I'm here to assist.

CAMEROTA: Well, great to see you. So last night there was this fiery debate in Florida. It proved that politics is still a blood sport. Charlie Crist and Rick Scott went at it.

KING: Let's listen to one exchange. These guys don't like each other and are in a very close race. Charlie Crist, remember, he was the Republican governor. At one point, John McCain was thinking about making him his vice presidential pick.

Now he's the Democratic nominee for governor, follow along, in Florida. Rick Scott is the Republican incumbent and you get a sense here, they're fighting over a planned execution and a political fundraiser by Rick Scott's attorney general, but it's about more than that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHARLIE CRIST (D), FLORIDA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Did the attorney general ask you to delay the execution so she could go forward with your political fundraiser?

GOVERNOR RICK SCOTT (R), FLORIDA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: It was -- she asked me to delay it because it was, it didn't work on the dates that she thought it was going to be on.

CRIST: Did you know it was for a political fundraiser?

SCOTT: Charlie, she apologized. What would you like her to do?

CRIST: I didn't ask about her.

SCOTT: She apologized, Charlie.

CRIST: It doesn't answer questions. He pleads the fifth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: They got more heated in exchange, that's about independent voters. You're in a very close election. A lot of independents, especially if you start in Tampa, go across the I-4 Corridor over to Daytona Beach. Ethics, performance in government, that's what they are going at there.

CAMEROTA: Rick Scott didn't seem prepared for that question. Just for that question. He seemed a little bit back on his heels.

KING: Yes. I think it's less -- not prepared as much as I'm not going to answer that kind of question. Go away, Charlie. That's what they think of each other. But this is an incredibly big state, incredibly important state on its own.

Who is the governor of Florida in 2016 could help when you get into presidential calculations, two candidates, if you talk to pros in both parties, not running the best campaigns, but we'll see.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Well, that's what the - what's the gamble? The gamble is I don't have the best ideas. I don't have any revolutionary idea. I'm not going to blow you away as a voter, but I'm going to take you down. I may not be the best, but the other guy is a bum. What's the risk in this strategy?

KING: That you just, that people don't vote, number one. People get so discouraged. When I was on the road last week in the Midwest, Colorado, Kansas into Iowa, what's most distressing is you'll meet Evangelicals, conservative voters they say, why should I vote?

They are not going to do that. They don't care about me. They are not going to vote on my issues. Then you go and you meet Latinos who are very proud of their two votes for President Obama who say what did we get for it? He keeps making promises and he keeps breaking them.

So you have both on the left and the right, people who think it doesn't matter. Of course, it matters, it matters who your governor is in a big state like Florida. It matters who controls the Senate. The president is going to have Supreme Court picks in the next two years.

They might tinker with Obamacare. They're not going to repeal it. The president has the veto pen, but you'll have spending issues. The Republicans want to spend more on the Pentagon. Where is that money going to come from?

Does it come from head start and food stamps? You have wars going on so, of course, it matters. But the saddest price of the dysfunction of Washington the last two years is that people think it doesn't matter.

And that's, it's, very, I mean, I was going to say it's pathetic. I don't mean the voters are pathetic. It's pathetic that the daycare centers of Washington have convinced the voters that it doesn't matter. And when I used that term, I would think daycare centers have a good case for slander. CAMEROTA: The other funny thing, very quickly, last night was that they were arguing over who is richer. They were using it against each other. The American dream of success, they were using against each other to impugn each other's character, that the other one was richer.

KING: You know, Charlie Crist tried to use Rick Scott's wealth. Rick Scott used to run a medical company. He settled a big case and they tried this in the last campaign. The Democrat tried this. Charlie Crist is trying it again, fraud against the government.

Rick Scott says Charlie, you're not a poor guy yourself. Again, to your point, what about the environment in Florida, the economy in Florida, the taxes in Florida, anything but their personal things, what about the issues that affect the people?

This is not just here. You can go from debate to debate. Some of the debates around the country, there was one in North Carolina last night. The Democrat didn't show up, Kay Hagan.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about that. Why didn't she show up?

KING: It's a great question and we're waiting for a good explanation from the Hagan campaign besides she had other things to do.

CUOMO: She wasn't going to a fundraiser.

KING: Not this time. One of the issues in the campaign is that she missed an ISIS hearing, a classified hearing, because she was at a political fundraiser. You see the empty chair. Some people see this as a gimmick.

The interesting thing about this race is, Tom Tillis, the guy on the left, the Republican, there's a libertarian in this race, a pizza delivery guy named Sean Hall. He could actually swing this race.

If he gets 6 percent, 8 percent, Kay Hagan may win re-election because of the libertarian in the race. But Republicans say that Tillis has gone from about four points down to tie it or one or two points ahead in the last week focusing on one issue -- Ebola.

She flipped on the travel ban. She original say we don't need it and now she says we probably do. He has been hammering her on that. It's one of probably five or six races where Republicans pushing hard on the Ebola issue --

CUOMO: Do you think they can hold them off?

KING: It's a great question. North Carolina is the ultimate swing state. When you watch that race, you're thinking not only about Kay Hagan and Tom Tillis, you're thinking about 2016 and beyond because the demographics of the state are changing.

It used to be a ruby red Republican state, now it's purple. Some Democrats think it's moving blue. I'm a demographic freak so it's one of things I just fascinate about. It's a great race. CAMEROTA: So Kay Hagan did not show up, but other women are showing up on the campaign trail to great effect, Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama, Elizabeth Warren. Hillary Clinton, we understand this week alone has helped haul in an estimated $3.5 million in California for various campaigns. It's working with women on the campaign trail.

KING: She's going to be all over the northeast in the next few days. Michelle Obama has been out there. Elizabeth Warren has been out there. Helping themselves as they help candidates especially in Hillary Clinton's case.

You raise money for a candidate, you're making friends for 2016, but it also tells you what the Democratic strategy is in these last 13 days. They understand they have the wind in their face. They understand their president is unpopular.

He can only go to places like Illinois, to places like Maryland, to the bluest of blue states. You'll never see President Obama on the ground in any of these tough battleground states. But you are seeing his wife, Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren. Why?

Democrats know to win in Colorado and Iowa, you have to stretch the gender gap as far as they can stretch it that is the key, get women to vote, hope that men don't vote because they're discouraged.

If you have a huge gender gap in these races, Democrats have a chance. If it shrinks and polls again show the focus on security issues, the gender gap come back toward Republicans a little bit, that's the big battleground in the last 13 days.

CUOMO: It's always boggled my mind, with all the things that wives can get men to do, voting all of a sudden, they have absolutely no control. You throw it up to politics. You always hear the wives' lament. I won't even talk to them about politics, of all the things, voting.

KING: Well, you got these -- watch Elizabeth Warren too, you know, just in case Hillary Clinton doesn't run, I think she is going to run --

CUOMO: She's very strong.

KING: The base loves her. Turn-out, in a depressed environment where nobody wants to vote, we'll see who can turn them out.

CAMEROTA: John King, great to see you.

KING: It's good to be here.

CAMEROTA: Thanks for paying a visit.

KING: Want me to take him back to D.C. with me, please?

CUOMO: The last time I saw him, he threw me over his shoulder and carried me around.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much, John.

All right, the leaks keep coming out of Ferguson, Missouri, reports now emerging about Michael Brown's wounds and what was in his system when he was shot and killed. We'll discuss the legal and forensic new angles of this case.

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CUOMO: Information leaking out of a grand jury, revealing new details about the Ferguson police shooting that claimed the life of unarmed teenager, Michael Brown. The autopsy shows Brown sustained six gunshot wounds.

One of those was in the hand, now we are told, at close range. What could that mean? Could it lead credence to Officer Darren Wilson's account of a struggle at his patrol car? How it went down and what precipitated the fatal shooting?

Let's bring in two men who know how to analyze the situation, CNN legal analyst, Paul Callan and Larry Kobilinsky, forensic scientist. He is with the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Gentlemen, perfect for this. Thank you very much.

Let's deal with the wound in the hand. Professor Badden, no joke in the forensic community. He looks at the body for the family not to jaundice his opinion, but says it wasn't at close range. Now we hear it was at close range. Is that something that is easy to mistake?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Well, basically, Dr. Badden was probably looking for stippling, which occurs in a close-in gunshot.

CUOMO: What does that mean, stippling?

KOBILINSKY: Stippling is the burned, gunshot particles that are emitted from the barrel and hit the target and leave behind a tattooing, a stippling, a burning and an abrasion of the skin. He didn't see that, so he said it was not a close-in shot. Why do we know it was a close-in shot?

CUOMO: You're saying we know it was?

KOBILINSKY: We know it was a close-in shot because there was gunshot residue found in and around the wound, the tip of the thumb and the palm of the right hand. We know it and that tells me that that gun went off, it was about no more I should say than 18 inches away from the hand and it could have been as close as one inch.

CUOMO: OK, so the information is out there. We could argue all day and I think we would all come out on the same side, that information shouldn't leak out of a grand jury. But it did and people are forming opinions about it. This case matters beyond the process of adjudication.

So let's discuss what we now know and what it could mean. Couldn't have someone better than you, you know what it's like to prosecute. You know what it's like to defend criminal cases like this. I'll offer them up. You tell me what would be the balance on it?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: OK.

CUOMO: The first one is, we had been told by the chief early on this had nothing to do with a robbery, when Officer Wilson came there. We then heard, a call did go out over the radio. We now hear that Officer Wilson said when he passed by the kids, get out of the street, which may or may not have pissed them off.

He said he also thought that Johnson, the person with Michael Brown matched the description of the person at the robbery and that's what made him turn around. Do you buy it?

CALLAN: Well, I think it changes the landscape considerably if the jury believes it. Because you know, originally it looks like a cop may be harassing a couple of kids who may not be obeying his demand to get on the sidewalk.

If the cop goes past after getting the order to get on the sidewalk and he hears over the radio, a robbery at a convenience store and they fit the description, all of a sudden he's now, backing up and he thinks he's apprehending someone who committed a robbery.

This changes the landscape completely and makes it the possibility of a more violent encounter.

CUOMO: Wilson says that when he pulls up, he tries to get out of the car and that Michael Brown forces the door shut and lumps him right in the head immediately and let's stop it right there.

That is different than what Dorian Johnson says which is that he pulls up real close, so close that it startles them both and when Michael Brown backs away, the officers reaches out and grabs him and they start to scuffle, meaningful difference.

CALLAN: Very meaningful difference. Mr. Johnson basically said the door ricocheted closed when it hit me. I don't know that car doors ricochet off human bodies closed. I think that will be a point to be made by the officer's lawyers.

So the officer is claiming they pushed him back into the cruiser because I think he'll be claiming at trial, if there is a trial. That they knew he was on to them and that they were robbery suspects. So now they're desperate and they're trying to get away. Next of course, struggle ensues.

CUOMO: Now let's talk about the struggle. You've seen so many of these. The officer says, I've always said the key here is who took the gun out of the holster. We did some research into the holster. Very tough to take it out, given the configuration, which is a great thing for officer safety.

We know Darren Wilson says, I took out my weapon. Why? Well, he had just lumped me in the head. He was incredibly strong. I thought I was going to pass out. I was sitting on my nightstick. And I thought pepper spray would contaminate me as well. So I went to the gun, I didn't have a tazer, does that sound like an awful lot of critical thinking to be doing when you just got punched in the face?

KOBILINSKY: You know, the reality is, is now he's thinking back, trying to explain. When you're confronted with this situation, your adrenaline is flowing. You're pulling your gun, that means you're going to shoot somebody. You don't pull a gun just for the heck of it.

So the having somebody hit you, you pull your gun and then there's a struggle for the gun. The FBI showed that there were two shots fired in the vehicle. One of them hit Michael Brown on the palm and the thumb and the other one missed.

Gunshot residue in the vehicle shows that that's the case. The fact that it's a close-in shot, it's a struggle, there's no real question about that.

CUOMO: And it takes us to the main question -- I think now the new main question will be, Paul, I want your take on this. OK, the gun is out, we're struggling for it. That doesn't mean that Michael Brown is trying to kill him.

Michael Brown could have been trying to save his own life from an officer who said according to his witness, Dorian Johnson, I'm going to shoot you, how does this play out. The officer winds up having a gun, there's a struggle for the gun.

Shouldn't Michael Brown be trying to struggle for the gun if he's told as going to be shot or does this give the officer the clearance that he needs to justify his actions?

CALLAN: Well, you know it depends on your attitude toward the police. And whether they are treat people brutally and inappropriately as is the claim and many minority communities in the United States or if you think a cop is an authority figure. If he tells me to stop, I stop. If he pulls his gun out --

CUOMO: When I say I'm going to shoot you and I'm pulling out my gun, what are you going to do?

CALLAN: Well, I don't know. Cops don't usually say I'm going to shoot you.

CUOMO: You've already punched me. We're already fighting.

CALLAN: Yes.

CUOMO: Assuming he did say it.

CALLAN: Well, you're in a death struggle now. If he's actually inside the car grappling with the officer, and the officer gets the gun, this is a life and death situation for both men at this point.

CUOMO: For both men. CALLAN: So I understand that Michael Brown would have reacted violently to try to save his own life, but I also understand the officer probably thought if Brown gets the gun I'm dead. So there's a life/death struggle that depends there and it depends on your perspective and the attitude of the police and whether this particular police officer was an honest cop or a brutal, violent cop out to kill black kids.

CUOMO: Last quick take before we have more facts, either way, whatever happens in the car happens, is the officer justified in getting out of the car and continuing to shoot at Michael Brown as he runs away.

CALLAN: Well, he's not justified at shooting at a man who has his back to him, but the autopsy doesn't seem to suggest that. Under Missouri law, if you have a fleeing felon, which Brown was because he had robbed a convenience store and he endangers the officer or is a danger to others you can use deadly physical force.

I'm thinking of a conversation I have with a Manhattan prosecutor two days ago and you know what he said to me? He said in New York we don't let our cops shoot unarmed people and if this case went down in New York the big question would be, why didn't he call for backup? Why didn't he sit in the car, call for backup.

CUOMO: He says he did call for backup. We'll leave it there because we need more facts.

CALLAN: That's the question that the jury's going to be looking at and asking. Pendulum swings toward the cop on the basis of this autopsy.

CUOMO: Larry Kobilinsky, as we both know, every state is vulnerable to this because they may not let them shoot at unarmed man, but they do have a cop right now, who choked someone to death and they are trying to figure out what happened there.

Paul Callan, Lawrence Kobilinsky, thank you very much for taking us through this. What do you think of the latest information? You know how to get us online -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Chris, let's get back to our breaking news. We are following a breaking story. One of the Americans detained in North Korea is finally home this morning. We have the emotional reunion with his family and we're going hear let sister of one of the other Americans still being held in North Korea.

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CUOMO: Breaking news this morning of the good variety. Jeffrey Fowle, an American arrested in North Korea, now free. There he is, carrying his own bags on U.S. soil in Ohio, and watch this. Embracing the most important people in his world, his kids come out and then his wife.

CAMEROTA: What a great moment, but what does his release mean for the other two Americans who are still detained in North Korea? We will talk with the sister of Kenneth Bae, one of those prisoners as well as journalist, who was a North Korean prisoner and released in 2009.

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