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U.S. to Send More Military Advisers to Iraq; Two Americans Held Captive in North Korea Released by Pyongyang; North Korean Motives for American Hostage Release Analyzed

Aired November 8, 2014 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CHRISTI PAUL, CNN ANCHOR: So good to see you on a Saturday morning. Welcome.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Martin Savidge, in for Victor Blackwell. It's 10:00 in the East, 7:00 in the West. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

We begin this hour in Great Britain where police say that they have disrupted the terror plot. Police arrested four men in a series of raids. According to a statement from London Metropolitan Police, the men were arrested in and around London Thursday night on suspicion of Islamist-related terrorist offenses.

Atika Shubert has been monitoring the story from London.

Atika, good morning to you. What are you learning about the arrest?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What we know is that four men were arrested, most of them in west London, but one of the actually outside and in High Wycombe. They are all between the ages of 19 a 27, and a special firearms unit was actually used in some of the arrests. That's unusual here because police don't always carry firearms. But clearly in this case they felt there was enough cause to do so. And one of the suspects was actually arrested apparently on the street.

But we really don't know much more than that. They are being held on suspicion of planning a terror attack but we don't know any specific details. Now, what we know is that of course there are a number of high profile events coming over the weekend, including Remembrance Sunday to remember those fallen in World War I and II. And that is an event usually attended by the royal family. So there's some concern about this kind of high security events up ahead, but we don't have any specific details about whether these arrests are in connection with those events at this time.

SAVIDGE: Any idea, Atika, whether the queen still plans to attend those events or that her schedule will be the same as it was prior?

SHUBERT: We asked the palace about that. And they basically said they are not going to comment on any security matters. That's up to the police. But the queen will continue to go ahead with her plans to attend Remembrance Sunday and visit the memorial the next day. So there is absolutely no change in plans by the royal family. They are going to go ahead with all of those memorial events.

SAVIDGE: Atika Shubert in London, thank you very much.

CHRISTI PAUL, CNN ANCHOR: Meanwhile President Obama is doubling the troops on the ground in Iraq now, planning to send up to 1,500 more troops to Iraq to help train and advise Iraqi and Kurdish forces. They'll operate from bases outside Baghdad and Erbil and northern Iraq there, and it is expected that some are going to be in Anbar province which is largely under ISIS control. President Obama also plans to ask Congress to fund a half-billion dollars to help fund this military campaign.

I want to bring in CNN senior international correspondent Arwa Damon who is live with us this morning from Turkey. Arwa, what are you hearing on the ground there in response to this new campaign?

ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, this came as a result of a direct request by the Iraqi government also based on the recommendation of the Secretary Hagel and a number of other top military commanders. One thing is clear, and that is the need for additional U.S. advisers is evident if there is going to be any sort of hope that ISIS's defeat is going to come about.

But also key in all this is an ongoing effort by this new Iraqi government, again, Shia led Iraqi government, to try to bring the country's Sunni population into the fold. You mention Anbar province. They're predominantly Sunni and one of many predominantly Sunni areas where ISIS is able to find at the very at least friendly territory. Bringing those Sunni tribes on board, having them turn against ISIS is going to be vital in moving forward, because as history has shown us, especially in Iraq given how deep sectarian divisions can run and how much mistrust there already is between the Sunni and Shia population, the shear use of the military might may perhaps at some point down the road bring about a temporary defeat of ISIS, but it is not going to completely eradicate the terrorist organization unless there is this other effort to try to, again, as I was saying, bring the Sunnis into the fold to create something of a more permanent solution.

PAUL: You talked about Anbar province, which we know has been really violent and dangerous, and that the bases are going to be outside Baghdad and Erbil, but how secure are those bases the troops will be stationed at?

DAMON: That's going to be the big question as to how far forward are these troops actually placed, and even if they are in these bases in Anbar province being one area that considered also to the north of Baghdad in Taji, they would potentially be susceptible to attacks by car bombs, suicide bombs and direct fire. And even though they are being called advisory troops and they're not going to have a combat role per see, that does not necessarily mean that they won't be out on the ground perhaps say with brigade commanders, for example. So they will potentially be finding themselves in significantly more danger than those troops that are currently stationed there are. At the end day this is a very active war zone and no area in Iraq can be considered to be 100 percent safe.

PAUL: Good point. Arwa Damon, thank you so much. Good to see you this morning.

SAVIDGE: Ever since the first couple hundred U.S. military advisers headed to Iraq in June President Obama has insisted that their role will not become a combat one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The notion that the United States should be putting boots on the ground I think would be a profound mistake.

These American forces will not have a combat mission. We will not get dragged into another ground war in Iraq.

The American forces that have been deployed to Iraq do not and will not have a combat mission.

I won't commit our troops to fighting another ground war in Iraq or in Syria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: CNN global affairs analyst Lieutenant Colonel James Reese joins us now. And Colonel, it's good to see you again. Do you think that the U.S. troops in Iraq's hot zone could get involved directly in combat? Even though we've heard the president say numerous times that they won't or that won't happen, but we all know that the battlefield is a dynamic place and fighting can break up almost anywhere. So is there a threat to them?

LT. COL. JAMES REESE (RET), CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Martin, good morning. There is always a threat. Any you are in an area that people are shooting, it's like going to the OK Corral. You better be prepared to be shot at. But just like the president said, we are not sending battalions and brigades over there to go ahead and start closing with and destroying the enemy. Our job for our soldiers, lot of special operations soldiers, is to get in there, try to find a shared reality and some foundational logic, especially out in Anbar, that we lost after we pulled out in 2011, and really get the Iraqis moving.

And you know, if you really look at the intelligence that's coming out, and I was just out there a couple months ago, we are starting to get some movement out in Anbar. They are a couple of reports where we have already got some folks out there that are trying to do some reconnaissance when those new forces come out. So yes, they will be out there, and yes it will be dangerous, but they will not be in direct combat.

SAVIDGE: The impact of troops on the ground, whether they be not involved in combat, is to support the Iraqis in training. What kind of jobs do you think they will do besides just saying, all right, they're going to help train?

REESE: Well, like you said, you have got the trainers like we talked about. And the trainers will move out to probably the brigade sized elements of Iraqis to work through individual and collective task training with the battalions and companies. And then what we will do is just like we did back in Iraq when we very successful is we will start to build these operations intelligence fusion centers and bring the Iraqis in, the other coalition forces, because all this stuff is intelligence driven. It will help the Iraqis and their operational tempo with the intelligence and the operations to get our folks out there. So the folks that are more forward with the Iraqis will really be there really helping in command and control and really giving confidence to the Iraqis.

SAVIDGE: We know that other allies of course are helping with the air strikes. Would we expect then other allies would help with sending in troops on the ground?

REESE: We know right now that up in Erbil we have got some Germans and Italians who are doing some training. You know the Jordanians have some folks on the ground. The Jordanians have a great special operation force that are doing some training, advising and assisting with these folks. So, yes. And, you know, if you listen to General Austin the other day, who I think we really have to pay attention to, the military aspect from us or from the other coalition is not the main effort. The main effort is the political aspect. The military might from the coalition is a supporting effort to the political realms that we to get the Iraqi politicians to do.

SAVIDGE: Point well taken. Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, thank you very much for joining us.

REESE: Thanks, Martin. Have a good day.

PAUL: Israeli-Palestinian tensions flaring again in Jerusalem as the fight for a holy site is raging, and more than 30 Palestinian youths were injured in violent clashes with Israeli police.

SAVIDGE: Plus, in just about an hour President Obama is expected to make it official, nominating the woman he wants to be the nation's top prosecutor.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: This just in, U.S. citizens Kenneth Bae and Matthew Todd Miller have been freed from detention by North Korea, this according to the U.S. government.

PAUL: Huge news coming of course off Jeffrey Fowle's release just a couple weeks ago. CNN's Evan Perez is joining us now live with the latest. Evan, there has been such a campaign particularly to get Kenneth Bae home. What do you know?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. The director of national intelligence just announced just a little while ago that he was bringing these two Americans home. We don't know a lot more about the circumstances of the release, how long this has been in the works, but we do know that they are on their way homes, which is obviously very, very big and happy news for the families of these two Americans.

SAVIDGE: We also heard right that there is another nation involved that was helping to sort of negotiate and facilitate?

PEREZ: Well, yes. We're not sure exactly how this all came down. We know that the Americans have been working with some of the neighbors there, including China and the South Koreans to try to get anything -- you know, any assistance they can get to try to get these two Americans home. And as you know, you know, this has always been something of a trick for the North Koreans, because, you know, they demand all kind of things before they can try to make any concessions to the U.S. So I'm sure we're going to hear a little bit more from this. I've got some calls in to some officials to try to get a little bit of the backstory of what has happened.

SAVIDGE: All right, Evan, hey thank you. Stay with us here. I want to go to Elise Labott. Elise, we talked to you lot when Jeffrey Fowle was released just a couple of weeks ago. What do you make of the latest news that Kenneth Bae and Matthew Todd Miller are on their way home?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it's very significant, Christi. Listen, this obviously comes amid a period of a lot of activity among North Korean leader Kim Jong-un. This came on the heels of the release of Jeffrey Fowle a few weeks ago. And basically North Korea has been really trying to make overtures to the international community. There's been a lot of diplomatic activity because of the recent human rights reporter that just came out between talking about North Korea's human rights report, human rights record, and calling for it to referred to the International Criminal Court. And why is that serious. Because the regime feels a lot of this criticism has come from the U.S. But this is -- this would be a whole international community really talking about North Korea's human rights record. And what they are really afraid of is, you know, opening up to the world and the future of the regime. And this could be a threat to the regime.

So I think I this is very interesting. Kenneth Bae, Korean American missionary sentenced to 15 years hard labor in 2015. He was working eight hours a day, six days a week. His family was so worried about him. Matthew Todd Miller basically tore up his visa at the North Korean border and said he was going to seek asylum. No one really knew what was going on with him, but they knew that they needed to get these people out because not only for their families and themselves and Kenneth Bae was in poor health, but also because they felt that this was an impediment to really having a dialogue with North Korea about its rights record, about its nuclear program. North Korea was using them as the chip.

I think the fact of the head of the director of national intelligence traveling to North Korea to get it, I think that obviously the North Koreans wanted someone senior to come there, and I think it's very significant.

SAVIDGE: Elise, real quick, why didn't they let them several weeks ago when they let the American then? Why not let all three go at the same time?

LABOTT: Well, I mean, Matthew Todd Miller, I can't really say. But Kenneth Bae was really the kind of card that they were holding. And the North Koreans are master negotiators and they wanted to get as much out of this as they can. First they basically called up the United States a few weeks ago they said come get Jeffrey Fowle, send an American plane. They had a lot of instruction. And the United States followed them because they wanted to get Jeffrey Fowle out.

And this, I don't know exactly what happened, and obviously we'll be talking to sources and getting more details, but this has been in the works for a little bit because the United States is very mum about what happened with Jeffrey Fowle. Why were they mum? Because they said, look, we have two others and want to preserve the ability to get them out. And we knew at that time that there was something in the works. So there have obviously been some quite conversations going on, and the North Koreans really wanted to get a lot of bang for their buck out of Kenneth, and releasing all three of those hostages at that that time didn't really do that for them.

PAUL: Gordon Chang, an expert on North Korea, is with us right now. And if you're just joining us we want to welcome our viewers not just in the United States but around the world right now. Kenneth Bae and Matthew Todd Miller are the two Americans who have been held in North Korea are being released on their way home we understand. Gordon Chang, I wanted to get your thoughts on why now do you think that this is happening.

GORDON CHANG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think the why now is because North Korea is in the middle of a charm offensive. There have been very serious disruptions in its relationship with its only sponsor which has been Beijing, and now relations between the two countries are really very much in a black hole. And so basically the North Koreans have been reaching tout Russians, to the South Koreans, to the Japanese, and now to us. And really this is I think a sign that North Korea wants to continue this outreach. I'm not saying that North Korea's fundamental policies have changed. I don't think that they have. But their tactics have certainly done 180 degrees turn, and this is absolutely stunning.

SAVIDGE: There has been some question of course about the president, Kim Jong-un, his health and where he stands politically. Does this play into that in any way, give us any more insight as to what's going on?

CHANG: It does and it doesn't. I think the problem here is that most people have assumed that Kim Jong-un is politically stable. And when you have a stunning change in diplomacy, it can mean one of two things. It could mean that either Kim Jong-un feels so political confident that he can do something which would be unthinkable otherwise. Or it could mean that new people are actually in charge of North Korea and that they are the ones who have executed this policy turn.

I don't know which it is but I tend to think that Kim Jong-un is not stable. Recently in the last couple weeks we've heard of 10 more executions of the followers of his uncle, which indicates that the purges are continuing. And whenever you have continuing purges it means that a regime is unstable. So I think that right now we very well may have a new group of people running North Korea. They won't maybe show themselves. They'll still use Kim as the front because the regime derives its legitimacy from Kim. But nonetheless, I think this says something has really changed.

PAUL: Will Ripley, we want to bring you into the mix here, CNN reporter. He is there in the region. And Will, I know that you spoke with Jeffrey Fowle. I believe you spoke be Kenneth Bae and Matthew Todd Miller. I apologize, we just lost him. But he did speak with them at one point, and they talked about how much they really wanted to come home.

SAVIDGE: This is the first time we've really seen them in some time, and especially for their families it had to be very reassuring. Elise, are you still there?

LABOTT: Yes.

SAVIDGE: And I wanted to ask you, what was the first heads-up we got that this was all happening? Is there any way we would have known ahead of time, airplanes landing? It must have been, what, a U.S. aircraft that landed there in North Korea?

LABOTT: That's what happened last time, Martin. There was this U.S. plane that a source of our in North Korea saw on the tarmac, a U.S. military plane. And they called us and we called our sources and we were able to find out that Jeffrey Fowle was being taken home.

The first clue that we got was just a few minutes ago when the director of national intelligence office pout put out a statement that says they are on their way home. It was DNI Clapper, which is really amazing. And the State Department just put out a statement saying "We are grateful for the director of national intelligence Clapper who engaged on behalf of the United States in discussions with North Korean authorities about the release of the two citizens." Now, that to me is extraordinary. There hasn't been a kind of high level discussion between the United States and North Korea in years. The State Department has an envoy that has a channel with North Korea. There have not been direct talks in years. But the fact that head of U.S. intelligence James Clapper talking with the North Koreans about the release means the North Koreans really wanted some kind of dialogue with the United States, and it's really, as Gordon said, it's pretty stunning.

PAUL: It seems to be coming out of nowhere, doesn't it? Will Ripley is on the phone with us. Will, as you are hearing this news, tell us your thoughts after you spoke to these men and what you think they are probably going through at this moment, because I don't think anybody saw this coming. We know that Kenneth Bae had been working hard labor and was sentenced to 15 years. There was no sign they were going to let him go.

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There really wasn't, Christi. And after speaking with Kenneth Bae and Matthew Miller along with Jeffrey Fowle, the American who is now back home with his family, I can tell you that the sense of hope among all of those three men really was fading when we met and we talked in Pyongyang. Matthew Miller said to me that he knew his trial and sentencing was imminent and that his interview with CNN might be his final chance at being released before being sentenced. He said that. He was subsequently trialed and sentenced. Kenneth Bae had already been serving time. And all the men really had a feeling this perhaps could be their future, that they would be stuck in North Korea in the prison system working hard labor.

But what they had going for them is the fact that the North Korean government was keen for one to give CNN access to these three men because they wanted, as you mentioned, to send a message and essentially open up a dialogue with the United States government, and that is what we're now seeing happening, Christi.

SAVIDGE: We want to bring in Bill Richardson too who is joining us on the telephone. And he has had the distinct opportunity to, I guess, build close relationship, if you can say that, with North Korea. And I just wanted to ask you, sir, what do you think of the news of these tow being released? And why did it come as such a surprise?

BILL RICHARDSON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Well, the news is good. These two men had been in their a long time, particularly Kenneth Bae, close to two years. It is a signal from the North Koreans to the United States that maybe their hard line tactics, their rhetoric has not produced the results they want. So they want to open the dialogue.

Plus they have been accused by the United Nations of human rights violations. And the issue here is going to be, did they release these two without conditions? I suspect there are very few conditions, perhaps an aircraft to bring them home, the way they did with Jeffrey Fowle, the other young man that was released a couple of weeks ago.

But this is good news. I think this separates human rights, humanitarian releases, from the bigger issues that divide us with North Korea, which is the nuclear weapons they have, we want to stop using them. We want them to stop sending missiles, less hostility, get along with South Korea. This is good news. This is terrific for the families, and we should rejoice in that.

SAVIDGE: I asked this question earlier and I'll ask you because of the fact that you know so much about North Korea. What does this say about the leadership and struggle of leadership there?

RICHARDSON: Well, clearly a decision like this to release these Americans is made at the top. It's made my Kim Jong-un, so, the new leader who we know very little. So I think he may be changing tactics. Maybe he's moderating. Maybe he's moving toward wanting a dialogue with his neighbor, with the United States. So it is a good sign, because in the past there was silence from the North Koreans. They have held Kenneth Bae for two years. So it shows perhaps he is back in control, calling the shots, being influenced by the moderates.

I think those who wish that there is going to be a regime change, I think he was sick. He had a bad foot, gout. And he's still in control. And so this is a good sign because decisions like this are made at the highest level. He obviously made it. And if it was without any conditions, as it appears to be, he's signaling to the U.S., hey, maybe we should start talking, and that's good.

PAUL: All right, Ambassador Richardson, thank you so much.

Just to reset here so everybody knows what's happening. If you are just joining us, thank you for joining us in the U.S. and around the world. Kenneth Bae and Matthew Todd Miller, two Americans who have been held in North Korea, stunning news this morning. Out of nowhere they are coming home. As Bill Richardson there said, we do not know if there are any conditions attached to this release. But we know that they are on their way now just a couple of weeks after Jeffrey Fowle was also released. Erin McPike is at the White House. Erin, what do you know about how this all happened and any involvement by the president?

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Christi, we have not heard from the White House yet this morning. But we did just get in a statement from State Department spokesman Jen Psaki, and she says the safety and welfare of U.S. citizens abroad is the Department of State's highest priority, and the U.S. has long called on North Korean authorities to release these individuals on humanitarian grounds.

You may remember back in August of 2013, the State Department sent Ambassador Robert King to negotiate this release on humanitarian grounds. And three days after that, North Korea rescinded the invitation. That's why the State Department obviously is so involved in this as well. In the statement she says "We're grateful to Director of National Intelligence Clapper who engaged on behalf of the United States in discussion with North Korean authorities about the release of two citizens."

She goes on to thank Sweden for helping negotiate this and assisting the U.S. in these efforts. And then the statement ends. The Department of State reiterates our strong recommendation against all travel by U.S. citizens to North Korea. So obviously still a message there. Stay out.

SAVIDGE: All right, well, that's interesting. Hearing that message obviously meant to reinforce anyone, you are not supposed to go there. The U.S. does not have direct relationships with North Korea, which is why you might have another nation that might talk or negotiate on behalf.

Paula Hancocks is joining us now. She is based out of Seoul, covers all things Korea for us. Paula, what are you hearing there?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Martin, it's certainly a surprise to people here. We're not hearing anything official at this point. It's almost 12:00 at night so there is no official response. But I think this is going to take a lot of people in South Korea by surprise. If, and it does appear at this point that this was unconditional, it's certainly not what we were hearing from many experts and analyst who have observed this country for many years and decades were expecting.

Now, just look at the fairly recent past. You have these kinds of prisoners released from North Korea. These American citizens who have been taken into detention. It's often taken a very high profile personality. We've seen former presidents, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, to try and negotiate for the release of some of these U.S. citizens. But this time that hasn't happened it doesn't appear. Obviously the director of national intelligence has been involved according to the U.S., but it's certainly not a former president. And this is what North Korea would like to be able to play domestically, to show the power of Pyongyang, so show the power of their leader Kim Jong-un, to show they are able to get this kind of caliber of person from the United States to come and negotiate for the release.

So certainly I think many people will be surprised, not just that Matthew Todd Miller was released. He's been held for about seven months now, but that Kenneth Bae was released. He has been in custody for almost two year. All the experts I was talking too would say that it would be very tricky to negotiate for his release. They believed it may take some time for him to be released. And the fact that the two of htem have been released in tandem I think will take a lot of people by surprise. Martin?

SAVIDGE: Paula, I wanted to also ask you, on the subject of how these releases occur and what the attitude in South Korea, in other words, before this news, obviously, which is welcome in the U.S., what has been sort of the attitude mood in the South Korea regarding it's neighbor to the north?

HANCOCKS: Certainly we've seen a change in attitude because there has been just several weeks ago a very high profile visit from a North Korean delegation to Seoul. We saw effectively the number two, three, and four come to the country to see the closing ceremony of the Asian Games, which was very significant. It's almost unprecedented really.

But of course many South Koreans have lived through this cyclical relationship with North Korea before where relations have thawed, where deals have been done and then deals have been broken and relations have been bad once again. So there is a certain amount of suspicion as to why exactly this is happening now.

And of course many analysts we speak to point out that there has just been this United Nations commission of inquiry which has accused North Korea, have accused Pyongyang and also effectively the leadership of crimes against humanity. This had rattled Pyongyang. We have definitely seen a concerted effort, a concerted charm offensive around the world by North Korean officials. And this was assumed to be the case with Jeffrey Fowle. So I think there will be a certain amount of suspicion from South Korean officials, but obviously they will welcome the fact that these two are released. Of course there are South Koreans being held in North Korea as well. They will certainly be pushing for them to be released.

SAVIDGE: Good point.

PAUL: I just want to let you know what's happening here if you are just joining us, and thank you to our viewers here in the U.S. and around the world. Just this stunning news at this hour that really came out of nowhere. There was no lead-up to it. There was no indication that this was happening. But Kenneth Bae and Matthew Todd Miller, two of the Americans detained in North Korea are on their way home. We are being told, remember that Kenneth Bae has been held for the last two years. He was sentenced to 15 years hard labor. And then of course we have a Matthew Todd Miller, who -- that is a little bit more of a mystery. He was said he tore up his visa. He was seeking asylum. He's been held for seven months. But both of those men, we understand, are now on their way home to be reunited with their families. But there are a lot of people wondering, a, why now? And I have to think people are wondering what does North Korea want out of this?

SAVIDGE: You don't you don't do something like this without getting something in return. And the question mark here for all of us is, All right, what is that something in return?

But for the families, it is excellent news. They are obviously going to be excited. It will be interesting to see, where does this plane go next? And then when will we see these people reunited with their family.

PAUL: Evan Perez is with us now. Evan, has there been any indication as the protocols of this release? Where they will go, how long it will take?

PEREZ: The government is being tight-lipped right now. I've been checking with people as to when we might expect to see them. I suspect that perhaps the news slipped out a little before the U.S. government was ready to tell it. All we know the director of national intelligence Jim Clapper was the one who went and got these two Americans and is now bringing them home. I suspect we'll hear a little bit more when they arrive here back in the States.

And as Elise has pointed out, his involvement is something of a surprise. Certainly the North Koreans are very suspicious of the U.S. and especially the intelligence and military here. So it's going to be very interesting to see why Clapper was the one that was chosen to do this negotiation with the North Koreans and why he had to go there and get these two Americans to bring them back to their families.

SAVIDGE: Usually in the past, you know, we've seen people -- very prominent people like former president Bill Clinton who would be one who would travel and make the release.

PEREZ: And Bill Richardson, right.

SAVIDGE: Right. So the director of national intelligence, why -- and I know you asked that. But what is this person's role? And why would he have a roll then of going to North Korea?

PEREZ: That's what's sort of interesting. Obviously North Koreans are always very suspicious not only of the U.S. military but also the intelligence agencies here. And Clapper oversees everything in the intelligence apparatus of the United States, everything from the CIA and NSA. So the choice of him being the person in the role to negotiate this as the statement from the State Department just said is quite an interesting one, again, because usually the North Koreans are very standoffish and suspicious about those types of people, high level people in the U.S. government, in the current government. Often, as you pointed out, Martin, they want to deal with former people, very prominent people like Bill Richardson, who has been able to build a rapport with certain people in the North Korea regime.

SAVIDGE: And this just fascinates you that you sort of have this top, I won't say top spy, but the man who is the head of these intelligence agencies who goes to North Korea. Did he get off the plane? Did he actually go and meet with someone? Or does he just stand at the bottom of the stairs and greet these Americans? I just find all of that to be fascinating.

PEREZ: Exactly, right. And here in the U.S. Clapper has been the face of defending the NSA, defending the CIA from various scandals that have been going on here in this country. So the fact that he was the one over there, it's going to interesting to see who they chose to allow him to meet and why perhaps he was the one they wanted to see. And it always goes to the mystery of North Korea. There is so much that happens there that, you know, we're left reading tea leaves, and, you know, to try to determine what exactly their intent was and what they were looking for.

And also, you know, what the big question we're asking is obviously what we might have -- the U.S. government might have offered in return for the return in for these two Americans.

SAVIDGE: It sounds like the plot of a movie almost.

PEREZ: Right.

PAUL: Oh, my gosh, Brian Todd has done some extensive work on this, and Brian, I really want to just first of all get your thoughts on this, what we keep calling this morning but it is, a stunning release of these two Americans. There's been such a campaign to get them home. I don't think anybody saw this coming.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Christi, they really didn't see it coming as far as the two of them being released together. There was speculation that possibly Kenneth Bae. There was a lot of pressure to get him out. His sister had gone on CNN several times and told us about his failing health. There was speculation that possibly one of them might be released. I think it's very surprising both of them have been released together, but Bae especially.

The North Korean, every analyst we spoke to said the North Koreans do not do not want an American dying in their custody. And Kenneth Bae had been in very much failing health. His sister had said he had diabetes, he had high blood pressure, problems with his back. The labor camp conditions that he had been held were really getting to him. And I think as far as the timing of his release, the North Koreans may have felt if he had been held much longer they might have been in some trouble there, because they are concerned about possible pending sanctions against them, and I think they really realized that if they had held him much longer and his health had deteriorated that those sanctions certainly might have been put into effect.

I'm a little bit surprised that Matthew Todd Miller was released alongside him. But, again, as we've been hearing the North Koreans have made overtures indicating they want a little more openness to South Korea, to the west. So while the timing of this is surprising and the fact that they are being released together is surprising, I'm not all that surprised at least that Kenneth Bae had gotten out because of his health conditions.

PAUL: OK, Martin and I were just speaking about how rarely do you release somebody without wanting something in return. We know as you said that there were overtures that they wanted to open the dialogue. Is there any other reason that you can see or suspect that this would happen?

TODD: You know, I think a lot of that may play out in the coming weeks Christi, because a lot of the time we hear several days or weeks after an event occurred what really happened behind the scenes regarding the North Koreans. They are such an opaque government and a closed society that you don't get a lot transparency as far as the machinations of how these things work, at least not immediately. You often hear it later on. So I think what we'll probably hear later is maybe a little bit more detail probably from South Korean intelligence about why this happened, when it did, and it happened.

But as we said, they really do seem to want more openness to the west. They really want maybe a loosening of the economic sanctions. They need China's help in a lot of these things. They want to open up dialogue with the U.S. regarding their nuclear program, the weaponization program, all of that, and it seems this is probably going to help a great deal with that end.

SAVIDGE: It certainly helps in the PR department I would say. Brian Todd, thanks very much.

CNN's Will Ripley, as we mentioned, has been talking in the past or did talk to those who were held in North Korea. It was an exclusive interview and it's worth revisiting now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY: Mr. Bae, Will Ripley with CNN.

This is a moment we never expected. During a CNN trip to North Korea officials take us to a secret location for a surprise interview with Kenneth Bae, the American missionary who is serving 15 years hard labor for what North Korea calls a Christian plot to undermine the government.

Can you tell me about the conditions at the labor camp?

KENNETH BAE, FORMER CAPTIVE OF NORTH KOREA: Condition in the labor camp is I'm working eight hours a day, six days a week and working agricultural work to other hard labor that is required to do every day.

RIPLEY: Do you think you're being treated humanely?

BAE: Yes. RIPLEY: And your message to your family?

BAE: Well, I'm sure they are very worried about my health at this time. And even though right now last month and a half my health been -- it's been failing. So right now that -- what I can say to my family and friends is to continue to pray for me and also ask them to, you know, continue in effort in getting me released here.

RIPLEY: Bae has been in North Korea for almost two years. Two other Americans were arrested separately in April.

We were pulled off our regular schedule and brought here to a building in Pyongyang where we were told that we had precisely five minutes with each of the detainees. They are held in separate rooms and have no contact with each other. American Matthew Miller admitted he tore up his visa and seeking asylum in North Korea. Now he wants out.

What is the bottom line about your situation here and you message that you want to put out?

MATTHEW TODD MILLER, FORMER CAPTIVE OF NORTH KOREA: That my situation is very urgent, that very soon I'm going to trial and would directly be sent to prison. I think this interview is my final chance to push the American government into helping me.

RIPLEY: Jeffrey Fowle, a father from Ohio, confessed to leaving a Bible behind during the tourist trip, considered a covert act by the North Korean government. He was arrested on his daughter's birthday.

And your message to your family?

JEFFREY FOWLE, FORMER CAPTIVE OF NORTH KOREA: Message is I'll come home as soon as I can. My family is the biggest thing on my mind right now. I have got a wife and three college age school kids that depend on me for support. And my mother-in-law is staying with us too, so there are six of us in our household. And I'm gone.

RIPLEY: Right now, Fowle is in a hotel, but that could quickly change if he's found guilty later this month.

FOWLE: I'm good for the time being, but I need to let people know that I'm getting desperate, I'm getting desperate for help.

RIPLEY: Each man says they are getting humane treatment. They're pleaded for the United States to send a special envoy to secure their release. Three Americans held in North Korea, waiting and hoping that someday they will go home.

Will Ripley, CNN, Pyongyang.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: And again re-topping the news, which is of course that all three now are released. The last two Americans were released in a surprise move this morning. PAUL: Paul Callan has been watching this, and he has some interesting

angles from a legal perspective. Paul, when you first heard about this, what's the first thing you thought about?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I always find it bizarre when you look of course at the North Korean system. The U.S. gets into these problems with North Korea because they don't have a recognizable legal system. And usually when we get Americans who get imprisoned abroad there is an ambassador, a legal way that we can get to the people who are in custody and try to work out humane treatment and to have them come back to the United States. Of course that doesn't happen in North Korea.

And then looking at the charges here and trying to compare them to what happens in American courtrooms, it's really bizarre. Kenneth Bae, he was a Christian missionary, and the charge essentially that he was engaged in something the North Koreans called Operation Jericho, which was going to be a Christian overthrow of the North Korean government. Now, how bizarre does that sound? The evidence in the case consisted primarily of speeches he made -- or I should say sermons he gave in South Korean and American churches.

And with respect to Mr. Miller, who the second individual who was released, even more bizarre. He tore up his passport or visa when he was coming through, and they said it was a guise for him to become spy, once again, to try to overthrow the North Korean government. So you are dealing with charges that are utterly bizarre. And, you know, how does the United States deal with this? Very, very difficult.

PAUL: All right, Paul Callan, we appreciate it so much.

But again, if you are just joining us, these two American, Kenneth Bae, Matthew Todd Miller, huge campaigns, particularly for Kenneth Bae over the last two years to get him home. We do know according to his family he is not in the best of health and wondering if perhaps that might be part of the reasoning for his release. Huge news for these two families for America, and now big questions about what this means for diplomacy and any sort of conversations between North Korea, South Korea, the United States. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be back with more in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: Hello, I'm Martin Savidge with Christi Paul. Welcome back. We also want to welcome viewers from around the world. This just in, U.S. citizens Kenneth Bae and Matthew Todd Miller freed from detention by North Korea, this according to the U.S. government.

PAUL: CNN's Evan Perez is joining us with the very latest as well as Gordon Chang. Gordon, I want to come to you first. We heard earlier today as we were asking why now? Why is this happening? There are so many questions about how it was facilitated, but why this release at this point. And one of our experts has said the policies in North Korea have changed, the tactics per se, maybe not. What exactly do you think that means? CHANG: I think right now there is a charm offensive on part of the

North Koreans because of the rupture of their relationships with the Chinese who were their main sponsors. So now they are reaching out to the United States. But on the question of why now, we have got to remember that the United States is involved in these negotiations with Iran over its nuclear program, and of course the main thrust of our diplomacy with regard to Pyongyang has been the North Korean uranium and plutonium programs. So I don't think that that's coincidental. I don't know exactly how these two developments relate to each other, but there has got to be some connections because there are no coincidences when it comes to North Korea.

SAVIDGE: How do you think this was communicated? I mean, how was this negotiated since the United States does not have direct relations with North Korea?

CHANG: Well, the Swedes were involved in the release of all three individuals. When Jeffrey Fowle was released a few weeks ago the State Department specifically thanked the Swedes, and they were involved in the release of these two as well. So there have been continuing discussions.

But also the United States has had back door negotiations with the North Koreans from time to time. It's been sporadic, but they have been continuing. So there might have been some discussion of these three individuals during those back door channels.

And the fact that it was the director of national intelligence that went, apparently, on the U.S. aircraft to go pick them up, what does that say to you?

CHANG: That says to me there is a couple of things going on. One of them is that the United States wants to talk about the North Koreans about more important issues from our perspective, which are the nuclear program and of course the North's threat to South Korea. And these are long-term issues which have got to be solved one way or another. And so I think there has been pressure on the Obama administration to talk to North Korea. And with this gesture on the part of the north, that pressure will increase.

PAUL: We want to bring Will Ripley into the confirmation essentially he had an extraordinary opportunity to sit down with all three of these men who had been held by North Korea, only five minutes, I think, apiece with each of them. But Will, we do know that Kenneth Bae was in ill health. He was not doing well. And as Brian Todd said, North Korea certainly would not want him to die under their watch, because who knows what could happen if that were to -- if that were to happen. So I'm wondering from you, what did Kenneth Bae look like to you in person? We saw him on the screen, but how did his health seem when you talked with him?

RIPLEY: Well Christi, before I walk into the room and met Kenneth Bae in person for the first time all I had to go by were videos and photos I had seen on television. And when I saw him in person I was shocked at how much thinner he looked, how tired he looked. His hair was falling out. It was in chunks on his head, just long chunks of the hair and a lot of bald patches. He did not look well. And in fact he had just been released from the hospital when he met with me in this small room in a hotel and conference center in a part of Pyongyang where foreigners are not normally allowed in.

And he talked about how tired he was working at this labor camp. His schedule was six days a week, eight hours a day. And those are grueling hours for Kenneth Bae given his failing health. However, those hours are nothing compared to the report we get from the United Nations and other human rights group who speak with these defectors who talk about these labor camps where there is torture, where people don't have any food for days and have to eat rodents. In fact rodents would be considered a luxury for those people.

Those weren't the conditions Kenneth Bae was being held in, but his health was fading. He was very concerned that the situation would only deteriorate further the longer that he stayed in that country. And given that North Korea is trying to prove to the world that these allegations of vast human rights abuses are not true it was very important for the North Korean government to show us Kenneth Bae, Matthew Miller, and Jeffrey Fowle, and have all three men make a point to let us know that they were treated humanely. That was very important to the North Korea government to get across. They wanted to the world to see that they were treating these Americans in a humane manner despite the allegations that hundreds and thousands of people in that country are not receiving that kind of treatment.

SAVIDGE: And just as we said, Kenneth Bae and Matthew Todd Miller have been held for some time now, especially Kenneth Bae, in North Korea have been freed.

Will, I want to ask you. We watched and re-listened to the interviews you did with those three. And I don't know if it's just me, but it seems like they were desperate men. And I'm wondering is that the sensation you got when you walked into the room? Because let's face it, you are an American face walking in to see them.

RIPLEY: Oh, absolutely, Martin, without a doubt they were desperate. In fact you heard Fowle say I'm getting more desperate by the day. The same message was repeated by Matthew Miller and by Kenneth Bae. It was clear to these men that this was an opportunity. And the North Korean government in fact put them in front of these cameras for a reason, because they determined for whatever reason that here was a CNN crew in Pyongyang covering a totally different subject. We requested those interviews. We were told they weren't going to happen.

But then on the very last day we were there, we were rushed to this area. We weren't told why we were going. And it was only just seconds before we walked into the door and started interviewing these three men that we knew they were in there in different rooms in this hotel, no contact with each other.

And it was clear that the North Korean government had an agenda and they wanted to use CNN as the conduit to get these men out there, put these men on camera, send a message to their families, but more importantly send a message to their government, to the United States, that North Korea wanted to sit at the table and try to work out a deal to secure their release. But nobody knew at that time it was actually going to happen. But here we are today. All three of those Americans who we met under very, very difficult circumstances for them at Pyongyang now either with their families in the case of Fowle or on their way home as we speak in the cases of Miller and Bae.

PAUL: All right, we appreciate Will Ripley so much.

SAVIDGE: Good insight there.

PAUL: It really is. I still find it very interesting, and I think it will be very interesting to know what these men say about their time in North Korea. It's a risk of course to hold them. It is also a risk to let them go based on what they might know about North Korea and where they have been. Stay with us. Our breaking coverage continues after a short break.

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