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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Examining Video from the Michael Brown Shooting; Rising College Costs Discussed; Cosby Sexual Assault Allegations

Aired November 17, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: We are seeing and we are hearing Officer Darren Wilson for the first time since that shooting and killing of Michael Brown. Stephanie Elam looks at surveillance video that was obtained by "The St. Louis Dispatch," along with police audio that may just shed some light on the final minutes of Brown's life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are the first images of Officer Darren Wilson in the white t-shirt captured just hours after Michael Brown was killed on August 9th. It is unclear in the video if Wilson was suffering from any injuries, but police have said that Wilson sustained bruises and had a swollen face after his alleged struggle with Brown.

BENJAMIN CRUMP, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: From the beginning, Dorian Johnson, who was with Michael Brown Jr., said the officer wasn't hurt that he saw.

ELAM: The surveillance video obtained by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch shows Wilson leaving the police station after the shooting for the hospital. Later, the video shows him returning, according to the paper.

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch also obtained police audio publishing a timeline of events from that day, beginning with a theft.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, we've taking a stealing in progress from 9101 West Florissant.

ELAM: 19 seconds later, dispatch issues a description of a suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's with another male, he's got a red Cardinals hat, white t-shirt, yellow socks and khaki shorts. He's walking up...

ELAM: Minutes later, Officer Wilson offers assistance.

DARREN WILSON, FERGUSON POLICE OFFICER: 21 to 25 or 22, you guys need me?

ELAM: The paper says shortly after, Officer Wilson stopped Brown and his friend, Dorian Johnson, for walking in the middle of the street. Officer Wilson calls for back up.

WILSON: 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car. ELAM: According to the paper's timeline, Brown's fatal encounter with Wilson took less than two minutes. At 12:07, this call came in with someone apparently screaming in the background.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Frank 25.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get us several more units over here. There's going to be a problem.

ELAM: Stephanie Elam, CNN, Ferguson, Missouri.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: For the legal view on what any of that timeline and that video might actually tell us, I want to bring HLN legal analyst and defense attorney, Joey Jackson, and CNN legal analyst, Mel Robbins.

So, the first thing I expected and surely was delivered was views from all sides coming and saying, "Well, this proves it and that proves nothing." And I wanted to get your take on the video that we saw in the police station, the timeline that Stephanie just laid out. Mel go at it first.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, it reminds me a little bit of the George Zimmerman case where we saw a video of George Zimmerman, remember, walking into and everyone said, "Oh, oh. He's not that injured." And then you saw photos. I don't think this video proves much of anything other than the fact that he doesn't have broken legs. If he had a swollen face, if he had documented injuries, I'm sure there will be photographs.

I find the timeline to be much more interesting and I'm hoping that the grand jury has it because then you can match up what officer Wilson testified to, what some of the witnesses testified to, and the timeline of what actually happened.

BANFIELD: So since you mentioned George Zimmerman...

ROBBINS: Yes.

BANFIELD: It's a good thing to remind ourselves because that video that surface of George Zimmerman being booked the night that Trayvon Martin was shot and killed, there had been all sorts of talk that George had said he'd been beaten, he'd been hurt, and this video played and there were untold analysts who said look at that video, he's fine. That's not a person who is beaten to the extent that he said he needed to shoot and kill an unarmed teenager.

And lo and behold, it was months and months later that -- this is the video or the picture that surfaced from the actual crime scene, a police officer photographing him with a smashed nose.

ROBBINS: And, you know, Ashleigh, I sat in that courtroom and covered that case for six weeks. And I was in the courtroom when they showed that photo and the entire jury did want of these where they leaned forward and check it out. And so, I don't believe and I don't know what Joey thinks but I don't think this video is all that critical. If there are photographs, if there's documented injuries...

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Another story.

ROBBINS: ... totally different story.

JACKSON: Yes. To that point, I agree. It's not what we call outcome determinative. You can't look at the video and you can't draw a conclusion, right? To a reasonable degree of certainty, was he injured? Was he not injured? You really need to see photographs, however, we know that it's going to be spun in whatever direction you support. Obviously if you support the fact that this was murder and he should be indicted, there are no injuries, they're not significant. They were exaggerated. What is the eye orbit, where is the socket injury. If you (inaudible) with the police, hey, let's wait, let's look at the photos and let's see if there were injuries. Was he cleaned up?

On the issue of the actually timeline now, getting to that, what do we know from the release of those tapes? What we only know is that it happened within a short period of time. What we don't know is we know he got the call that is Darren Wilson asked if there are being suspects involved, did he actually know that Michael Brown was a suspect, one. And number two, did affect his state of mind in terms of the eminence of the threat that he saw when he used reasonable or unreasonable deadly force.

BANFIELD: Did either of you find it surprising that everything from the moment he encountered Michael Brown to the moment Michael Brown fell dead was about two minutes?

ROBBINS: No. It didn't surprised me at all that it took that fast.

JACKSON: And that's going to be spun also, to be clear, in the event that you are supportive of Michael Brown, what you're going to say is that that was reflection. Two minutes is an eternity. 91 seconds is an eternity, 61 seconds is an eternity to make a judgment call, to exercise reasonable...

ROBBINS: And the police are going to be, "Oh, no, no, no, no. This was long, continuous thing...

JACKSON: Correct.

ROBBINS: ... that which happening. There was a struggle and then there was a running, and then there was chaos and there were hands. We're they up, we're they down? And so I think the main takeaway here, and you said this in the beginning, is people have already made their decisions about this case.

You either think that Michael Brown was murdered in cold blood and that the police officer committed a crime or you think that police officer had reasonable fear after he was assaulted inside of his car and the officer should be acquitted? And unfortunately, regardless of what this grand jury returns, no one is changing sides. This is not going to be a "satisfying" verdict...

JACKSON: That is true. But there's only one way to flush this out and that is with a trial, right? At a trial, all of these would come out.

BANFIELD: Are you advocating for a trial, Joey Jackson?

JACKSON: I am advocating for justice wherever that justice leads.

BANFIELD: Justice might mean no indictment.

JACKSON: It may be in that, but depending upon, Mel, of course what the grand jury heard and what they decide.

BANFIELD: I can guarantee you -- I will guarantee you in this case, justice will be done and at least half the people who follow this case will think it's not.

ROBBINS: Correct.

BANFIELD: That is a guarantee, without question because justice doesn't mean your way. It never does. But, you know, it just shows you how starving everyone is for every tiny minute detail.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: We hope the get it. Joey, Mel, thank you both.

JACKSON: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Excellent as always.

I want to move to some other news and that's the cost of going to college these days. Did you hear, it's outrageously expensive. Some people are now asking, "Really, is it worth it?" Is it worth it to be that much in debt so early on in life? And my next guest says you bet it is. He's going to explain why, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: ISIS has beheaded a third American hostage. The victim this time, a former U.S. soldier and humanitarian aid worker named Peter Kassig. The video that ISIS posted on YouTube on Sunday shows the bloody aftermath of the brutality while a masked man stands over Kassig's severed head announcing that it belongs to the 26-year-old from Indianapolis. The President, blasting Kassig's murder as an act of pure evil.

Meantime, huge explosions rocks the Syrian city of Kobani early this morning where the U.S. is carrying out air strikes against ISIS forces.

The Los Angeles Unified School District has fired an attorney who was defending a sexual abuse civil lawsuit against the district after that lawyer made some pretty inappropriate comments about the teenage victim on public radio, KPCC. The attorneys name is Keith Wyatt and he made headlines last week

after he suggested 14-year-olds are mature enough to consent to sex with an adult, even if that adult is their teacher. Wyatt has apologized for his comments but he was still booted from the case.

Days before the start of the Miss World Pageant, the world wants to know where's Miss Honduras, anyway. Police then say Maria Jose Alvarado Munoz went missing last Thursday along with her sister but they weren't reported missing until Saturday. Alvarado is 19-years- old and had said that she wants to be a diplomat.

The Vatican says that Pope Francis will make his first trip to the United States as the leader of the Catholic Church coming this September. He'll visit the World Meeting of Families in Philadelphia and hold a large public mass as well. If you're counting, Francis will be the fourth reigning pope to visit the United States.

I hope you have your winter coat handy. Watch the video as I tell you this, across much of those countries freezing temperatures are here to stay for about a week. And that was the scene in Oklahoma City. A pickup does not quite able to cope with what the weather's doing to the road, I lived that my entire life. The weather service says the cold spell is creeping towards the Northeast and also down to the deep South, so just feel yourself, this is what it means when winter approaches.

You know, it is absolutely no secret that the price of a college education has skyrocketed and that's an understatement in recent years. It just might be fully out of control by this point. Take a look at the list of the most expensive colleges in the United States from the Chronicle of Higher Education, that's Sarah Lawrence up at the top, and yes, that does say over $65,000 for annual tuition and living expenses.

I want you to have a quick look at this clip from the CNN film Ivory Tower that's going to air Thursday night at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. And it explores the sustainability of this higher education model.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL ROTH, WESLEYAN UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT: Many intellectuals are saying it would be better if some people don't go to college at all. I think that's an assault on democracy and it's an attempt to keep people in their place and reinforce social inequality.

Education should foster social mobility and the possibility of equality.

You have to be crazy to intentionally not get a college degree if you have a choice today. And if the college education is really a college education and not just training in one particular little field, you learn how to learn and so that can actually open up new things in your life long after college.

Part of our responsibility as educators is actually to help inspire students who connect with problems in the world because we're leaving them with a lot of problems. Aand I think they know that actually and they want to engage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Joining me now and talk about the rising cost of college is the man that you just saw, he's the president of Wesleyan University. Michael Roth is with me now.

Thank so much for taking the time to speak with me. This is something that gives me (inaudible) everyday. I have a seven-year-old and a nine-year-old and I am freaking out about what it is going to cost me to put those boys through school. And especially when I look at this that college costs have risen 1,120 percent since 1978. It has outpaced the cost of food, health care and student loan debt right now surpasses 1 trillion and that's more than credit card debt, how did this happen, Michael?

ROTH: Well, it's happened because we have created a situation where the incentives are in place for raising tuition. There are lots of people who want to get to great schools and there aren't enough places for them. The demand is really great and so the supply is not so great and tuition costs have sky rocketed. And...

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Even the demand for BMW is about two, but I just can't see the 1,120 percent increase since '78.

MICHAEL ROTH: That's right. Well, the explanation is that costs have risen because people want the education and there aren't enough spots for it. There aren't enough spots for those students and it's got to change. We know that public education has gotten a lot more expensive even more quickly than private education in recent years. And the high sticker price is not what most people pay at the schools that have the highest tuition. At a place like Wesleyan, almost half of our students were on financial aid and the average grant is over $30,000.

But I think the problem that you point to, the increasing burden of student debt is a national disgrace because it inhibits the ability of students to choose their careers after they leave college. And so, I think again, the film does a great job of highlighting that student debt is a huge problem and that we, college administrators, college professors, we have to find ways to replace grants with financial aids.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you this? You know, I often wonder. The college experiences is a great part of the education, being on campus, being away, meeting all these people, but when it comes to the cost of doing that, do you think that the realistic capitalist model of getting more online cheaper institutions without bricks and mortar may be the way to try to bring those costs down, make them more competitive, and open up more of those spaces you're talking about that are so critical.

ROTH: Absolutely, Ashleigh. In fact when Andrew Rossi was making Ivory Tower, he was filming a class I was teaching at Wesleyan but I was simultaneously giving it online to about 30,000 students. It was a old fashion humanities course given around the world for free. And I think, over time, as MOOCs and other online classes get better, we will find ways to condense the college experience, keep it pack with academic rigor, but gives students the ability to graduate in three years, choose a summertime in which a time for intensive courses to keep the price down without sacrificing the quality of a high-end education.

Students who are going to be working at the University of Nebraska, students who're going to be studying ISIS in the Middle East, we want them to have the very best education but we have to find way to offer to them in a more condensed and affordable forms.

BANFIELD: Well, it's a great talk, and I'm glad you're part of it. President Roth, thanks so much for taking the time to speak with us.

ROTH: It's my pleasure. Thank you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Michael Roth live with us. And I want to just remind you, Ivory Tower is on Thursday night, 9:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN. And if you got some young ones, you want to watch this to see where we're where headed and whether we can manage higher education.

In other news, comedian and actor Bill Cosby, get asked about some very uncomfortable rape accusation against him that were never prosecuted and never proven in a court of law.

His response to the question, even more awkward in the question itself. One woman has said, "He assaulted her back in the 1980's when she was a teenager." So, how difference is it now than it was then, and would anything be different today. All of that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: How many people do you know who might have survived a scandal if only here she had just kept her mouth shut? Plenty, I'm sure. But, it turns out silence is not always the answer, as Bill Cosby is probably aware of right this moment. Because over the weekend, NPR aired an interview with Cosby and the entertainer's wife, Camille, about the African Art that they have lent the Smithsonian.

And naturally, the anchor, Scott Simon also asked about some newly resurfacing allegation to sexual assault dating back to the 1970s. And here is how that played out on the airwaves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT SIMON, NPR HOST: This question gives me no pleasure, Mr. Cosby. But there have been serious allegations raised about you in recent days. You're shaking your head no. I'm in the news business. I have to ask the question. Do you have any response to those charges?

Shaking your head no. There are people who love you who might like to hear from you about this. I want to give you the chance. All right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, Scott Simon appeared on CNN yesterday and said while Cosby was shaking his head, he was also smiling with, "that impish little Cosby smile" whatever that means. Because this is serious, and sometimes that means people have absolutely no interest in getting back into all the allegation, it might also mean that they don't take them seriously.

I want to bring back my CNN commentator panel, Mel Robbins, and HLN's legal analyst, Joey Jackson.

So, I think that that opening line is that silence maybe isn't always golden. Maybe silence isn't always the way to go. From a P.R. standpoint maybe, but when you're getting into something like this, is there anything else, Mel, that Bill Cosby could have done in that interview?

ROBBINS: Well, he could've hit it head on. If he is going to deny it, it's certainly more compelling when somebody says, "It's absolutely not true, I have never ever been charged with a crime, end of story." I mean, that's it. But by him, kind of shaking his head and impish thing -- I find the whole thing frankly disgusting. We're talking about...

BANFIELD: Which part?

ROBBINS: Which part? The fact that there are 13 known women that were named in the lawsuit that was brought in 2005, the fact that Simon from NPR was apologizing on Twitter after he had to ask the question, the fact that people are standing up and giving Bill Cosby a standing ovation over the weekend, when you have no less than four women that have come forward giving interviews, they have nothing to gain, Ashleigh. In fact, they have everything to lose.

This isn't one person making these claims, it's a chorus...

BANFIELD: It's a true. So, I hear what you're saying but there will be another who say, "Nothing ever proven in a court of law. No charges ever filed against this man." In fact, settlement is reach. Money paid and accepted by people who are...

ROBBINS: One woman, yes.

BANFIELD: ... at what happened. So, that does equalize things. Somewhat else, I want to read a statement from Cosby's lawyers because they are the only ones who are talking in this.

"The fact that they're being repeated," meaning the allegations. "The fact that they're being repeated does not make them true. Mr. Cosby does not intend to dignify these allegations with any comment." So, Joey, this is the country in which you are innocent till proven guilty and there hasn't even been a charge against him. Is there anything other than that he should be doing?

JACKSON: Well, here's the problem. This is where public relations and public relations advisers may disagree with people like myself and or Mel or other attorneys, right? Where they say and we commonly advise, Mel, to keep your mouth shut. Now, from a legal perspective, you never want your client talking. We know the statute of limitations and I was surprised, in fact, I initially thought that he could be prosecuted under the old allegation because there is no statute of limitations in New York. That however is not true. It was in 2006 that the legislature in New York said, "You know what, we're going to eliminate the statute of limitations."

Howeve,r Ashleigh, even there's no statute of limitations issue in terms of he can't be prosecuted, it's over, these are allegations we're aware of. What about allegation where we're not that could come about...

BANFIELD: OK, so let's...

JACKSON: ... that could harm him. So, from the attorney I'm saying keep your mouth shut -- right.

BANFIELD: Keep your mouth shut. So back in...

ROBBINS: Unless you're a victim, then you should always talk.

JACKSON: Absolutely, absolutely.

BANFIELD: I got 30 seconds and I need you both to hit this. Back in the '70s, I remember hearing, you were wearing a short skirt, you were asking for it. And a lot of women felt rape didn't even exist in terms of being, you know, defended. So, is that possibly something that might be playing in here? There may have been rape allegations that were simply not prosecuted, not even taking seriously and just ignored? And would that be the same today, quickly.

ROBBINS: I think -- I want to think it's different today. That based on whether it's the Penn State scandal, based on scandal that we see and how quickly social media empowers people...

BANFIELD: Last words, real quick.

JACKSON: No, absolutely. I think we're in a day and age, you wear what you want, you do what you do, women ought to be respected, women are to be honored and certainly no means no and if these allegations...

BANFIELD: All right, Joey Jackson.

JACKSON: ... is true, it's certainly disgusting. (inaudible) but they haven't been proven, and to this point, are just allegations.

BANFIELD: So I'll leave it there and thank you both.

ROBBINS: Thank you.

JACKSON: Thank you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Thank you so much.

Hey, everyone, thanks so much for watching. My colleague, the wonderful and talented Jim Sciutto is sitting in for the even equally wonderful and talented Wolf Blitzer, and that gets going right after this break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)