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@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Rape Accusations Plague Bill Cosby; Ferguson, Missouri on Edge; More Snow Coming to Buffalo, New York; Is College Worth the Cost?

Aired November 20, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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JANICE DICKINSON, FORMER MODEL: It is not a lie, and I can back it up. The loss of innocence that I suffered, and these women out there suffer, is why I'm sitting here today. And I don't care about what Cosby or networks or anybody says. I am -- you will hear me.

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MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: That's TV host and former supermodel, Janice Dickinson, standing by her allegations that Bill Cosby drugged and raped her in 1982.

I want to bring back our two guests @THISHOUR, senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter; and Wendy Murphy, a former child abuse and sex crimes prosecutor.

Wendy, we've seen the statements from the legal team of Cosby. This time -- remember, this is the second time that Janice Dickinson came out. Once on Tuesday, and then she followed up with another interview on "Entertainment Tonight" on Wednesday. The legal team from Cosby says this story is a lie. She insists it's true.

This is the question I have for you. What can accusers do when all this time has passed? Is there anything that can be done after the fact?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER CHILD ABUSE & SEX CRIME PROSECUTOR: Yeah, you know, such a good question. Because for the underlying charges, I think there's no doubt the statutes of limitation have expired. However, the legal team, although not Bill Cosby, has essentially called Janice Dickinson a liar. And when that happens, it sort of starts the clock running anew on a possible libel lawsuit, slander lawsuits. Those kinds of things get rejuvenated even years later when people dare to say out loud that a victim is a liar. Janice may well be thinking about taking those kinds of steps. It's not an easy case to win, but it's a danger of responding. When Cosby's people respond and say the victims are lying, there's a whole new slew of potential lawsuits that could be filed, even though the cases are mostly too old for criminal or civil cases themselves.

PEREIRA: One of the accusers just recently who came forward and spoke to us at CNN, at the very end when we asked her what she wanted all of this, she simply said, I just want people to believe me. That's part of the thing for so many of these women, isn't it? And as a victim of any kind of abuse or assault, you want to be believed, Wendy.

MURPHY: Yeah, I mean, I can't emphasize enough how much this has mattered to the clients I've represented over the years. 25 years I've been doing this work, and it's probably the thing that they all agree about, is they don't want money, they don't even care if there is a prosecution and a jury finds the guy guilty. They just want someone to hear them, to believe them, to validate their experience. Because it's often the secrecy and the shame of being disbelieved when they do come forward, particularly against somebody of this magnitude, that hurts the most. So I give a lot of credit to this woman saying, I don't care what happens, I will be heard. I wish every victim would have the guts to do the same thing.

PEREIRA: You're taking on one of the biggest, most iconic legends in our society today.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: And some of them in the past had tried and felt like they were ignored.

PEREIRA: And failed. Right. Now here's the thing, the media portrayal of this has been mixed, Brian.

STELTER: It has. And there are obviously the fans of Cosby that say the media is out to tarnish this man in a period where he's thinking about his legacy. On the other hand, these women, many of them, they've been so credible. It is hard to sit on television, to look into the barrel of that camera, to talk about what they say was one of worst experiences of their lives.

PEREIRA: And then deal with the blowback that comes afterwards.

STELTER: And all the hate and accusations that come from doing that. The camera -- the picture can tell a thousand words sometimes. These women have come across very credibly, and that's mattered a lot in the past week or so.

PEREIRA: We'll be talking about this more. I appreciate both of you so much. Wendy Murphy, Brian Stelter, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation @THISHOUR.

STELTER: Thanks.

PEREIRA: Ahead here, Ferguson, Missouri, has been bracing for months. Will tomorrow be the day a grand jury makes a decision in the Michael Brown case? And will we ever learn what the grand jury heard? We're going to discuss it next.

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PEREIRA: Ferguson, Missouri, remaining on edge today as the grand jury is due to meet today for what could be its final session. A decision on whether or not to charge Darren Wilson, the white officer who killed the black teenager, Michael Brown, in August, could come as soon as tomorrow. Prosecutors are expected to give police 48 hours notice before making a decision public, so that decision public, so that they can prepare for what could be heated protests and demonstrations. But those plans, of course, could change, too.

Joining me now is CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Mark O'Mara.

Really a pleasure to have you with me as we await this decision, Mark. Good morning to you as well.

We know the grand jury has until January to make its decision. But what does it tell you about all of this that a decision could be as soon as a day away?

MARK O'MARA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY & CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it sounds like it's coming very closely. We're all guessing about this, but some of the indicators with the prosecutor sort of suggesting it's coming soon, with the last few witnesses seemingly identified going in, most importantly, most importantly, with the governor doing what I think was a bad move, but calling in the National Guard, declaring a state of emergency, suggests that it's imminent. So I think the time line of last deliberations tomorrow and maybe a decision announced on Sunday still makes some sense.

PEREIRA: It makes sense to you. I want your opinion on this. We know prosecutor said he plans to make public all the testimony and the evidence that is presented to the grand jury. But of course, that brings about concerns about how to deal with the identities of the people who testified. Do you think those names should be redacted, or does that destroy the credibility?

O'MARA: Well, you know, there's a lot to consider. First of all, if an indictment comes, then the information may not be released immediately, because then the discovery of the criminal side of this come into play. If there's no indictment, and then what he said was he was going to release it, a judge could prohibit that, which I hope they don't. And the Department of Justice could prohibit it, which I hope they don't.

But to the issue of the witnesses, you know, you have to have transparency, and those witnesses' names are going to have to come out eventually. But we dealt with the issue of anonymity in the Zimmerman case because there is such an emotional attachment to this that we have to be careful that those witnesses who have spoken at least have some level of protection.

PEREIRA: Absolutely. And this is, I would argue, just as heated and as emotionally fraught as the Zimmerman case. I want you to walk through with me the charges that Officer Wilson could face. We've got from first-degree murder to involuntary manslaughter, to a charge that the grand jury could add such as an armed criminal action. Give us an idea and understanding of the evidence that jurors are considering for each of these charges, if you would, Mark.

O'MARA: First-degree murder, that he acted in a way that was premeditated and decided still to shoot. That's a life sentence. Even death in Missouri, but that I don't think will be on the table. Second-degree murder, where you act in a way, where you're acting in a heated moment but not with justification. That could also be a life sentence. Then you get down to the voluntary manslaughter, where you do something which you shouldn't have done, but with no real criminal intent. Shooting a gun you don't need to shoot. And then even less than that, involuntary manslaughter, where you act in such a reckless disregard in a way that you do something without any justification and a death ensues. Other one is further down the list. Like you talked about, some other firearm charges. But I think this is going to really focus on the decision by the grand jury, was Darren Wilson's actions justified based upon the circumstances. That self-defense means no crime, or probably something like second-degree, which is unjustified shooting.

PEREIRA: We're lucky to have your legal mind to turn to, Mark O'Mara. Thank you so much for joining me.

O'MARA: Sure thing.

PEREIRA: Tonight at 7:00 p.m., my colleague, Erin Burnett, will speak with Ferguson's police chief about what he is planning to do in the wake of the grand jury's decision. We know there's a lot riding on that. Be sure to tune in here on CNN.

Ahead of this hour here, police are concerned about some of the people trapped in their homes. Firefighters are as well. They are banning people from driving on the roads. We're told more snow is coming to Buffalo. We're going to have a live report from there next.

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PEREIRA: Snow, snow, snow, and more snow for Buffalo, New York, six feet so far. Another three expected today. That is more than a year's worth of snow in just three days. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo told CNN's "New Day" that Buffalo has never seen anything quite like this before.

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ANDREW CUOMO, GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: In some situations, just by their very nature, by the circumstances, are difficult to manage. And that's what we have here. You have vehicles stranded all over the roads, and then abandoned. To clear that road, you now have to tow every vehicle, and then plow. There are no keys in the vehicle, so that's difficult. And it just compounds. You then have secondary problems.

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PEREIRA: Our meteorologist, Jennifer Gray, is bravely in Buffalo.

We know people in Buffalo are used to dealing with it. They get about seven feet of snow a year. How are folks dealing with it, and maybe you could even give us a primer on why this snowstorm has been so epic. JENNIFER GRAY, AMS METEOROLOGIST: This has been one of the worst lake

effect snow events that Buffalo has ever seen. You know, people that have lived here their entire lives are saying we've never seen anything like that, and that speaks volumes coming from people from Buffalo. They're comparing it to that blizzard of '77. You know, you have that lake effect snow setup. You have that relatively warmer air above the lake clashing with that cooler air on top of it. And what happens is it creates instability, just as a thunderstorm does, and the wind over the lake will push it downwind, and so areas just on the downwind side of that lake are just getting dumped on with snow. We actually had thunder snow this morning and it woke us up during the night. And again, we were meeting downstairs, about 4:00 in the morning. So look around, this is a staging area where those front-end loaders have been piling up snow and just hauling it off. They've hauled off thousands of pounds of snow, and they're putting it into a field, because the snow has nowhere to go. They are all bracing for this next round that is already impacting areas south of me, where they're expected to get two to three feet. This is basically what we're dealing with where we are. Snow piled as tall as I am. And these are what roads look like that aren't plowed. Believe it or not, there are a lot of roads around here that aren't even plowed yet. Cars are completely buried under the snow. And folks are literally digging out. We've seen pictures of people that have made tunnels through their door to get out, made a complete tunnel. It is scary, though. People are literally inside their homes, they can't get to where they need to go. We talked to one lady who's worried, her dad had a stroke. She was worried they couldn't get a balance if they need it. That's the fear, being basically trapped.

PEREIRA: We keep talking about how beautiful this is and how intense it is, but there is a very serious side of it. Emergency crews can't get through. If you're trapped indoors, there's a concern about carbon monoxide poisoning. What are officials telling people to do in order to stay safe?

GRAY: Well, basically, stay indoors. You know, if you're elderly -- you know, we've had people coming and helping their neighbors shovel their snow, plow their snow for them. Neighbors have really come together through all of this. You know, carbon monoxide is a huge concern. And so a lot of people, especially -- we were talking to one lady, she said a lot of renters don't realize that you need to clean around your furnace and things and protect yourself from carbon monoxide poi poisoning. If we get rain, like is expected the early part of the weekend that could add weight to the snow and collapse. One heard that one building already collapsed in Hamburg today. More of that could happen and then you get the gas lines that break as well, and then you have a whole other problem on your hands. So this is far from over -- Michaela?

PEREIRA: Far from over, indeed. Will you please keep those gloves on? You're making me nervous. Keep your hands in those mittens and stay warm as you can, OK?

(LAUGHTER)

GRAY: OK. PEREIRA: Jennifer Gray.

And you saw, just a moment ago, drone footage. A guy fired up his drone and was showing some incredible images from his garage, giving you a perspective of the snow and the intense amounts of it in his neighborhood. Never seen that before. How about that?

Ahead @THISHOUR, students say college tuition is way too expensive, and it's going up every day. We wonder, is college education still worth the cost? We're going to ask some experts to weigh in.

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PEREIRA: I want to show you something very special happening @THISHOUR. President Obama's honoring a group of leaders, 19 people, recipients of the National Medal of Science and National Medal of Technology. They are being recognized for advancing the fields of science and technology and for helping inspire students pursue careers in science, math and engineering, the stem courses. We love to see that. Great recognition. Congratulations to them. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Tom Hanks and Tiger Woods all have something

in common, left college to pursue their dreams. Worked OK for them, I guess. The big question for today, is college education worth the cost? The CNN film "Ivory Tower" takes a look.

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PETER SCHIFF, CEO, EURO PACIFIC CAPITAL: There's going to be a collapse. One way or another, there's going to be a crisis. It gets to the point where the price of a degree is so high, that people just don't want to pay for it anymore.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not what most colleges want to talk about. They want to pretend education is something that's completely nonfinancial. These are very noble ideals, but they don't make sense when people are taking on hundred, $200,000 of student debt.

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PEREIRA: Let's bring in Richard Arum, sociology and education professor at New York university; Kathy Davidson, professor and director of the Futures Initiative at the City University of New York.

A delight to have you both here.

We are all the beneficiaries, the three of us, a university education, and can talk about the benefits of it.

But, Richard, in today's changing climate, the landscape, the economics, the financial times that we're in, is getting a college degree reasonable and is it still feasible?

RICHARD ARUM, SOCIOLOGY AND EDUCATION PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: It's necessary and essential. Even with the high cost of education, it pays for individuals to go to college. There's no question about it. The real question is, are students getting the value for their money.

PEREIRA: OK.

ARUM: I think in that respect, often not. Full-time faculty are in steep decline in colleges and universities. Academic programs are struggling around issues of quality and rigor. And instead we have social amenities built on college campuses today and that's the problem.

PEREIRA: Kathy, do you agree? If so, what do we do about it? We need our students to be well educated to go on and do great things.

KATHY DAVIDSON, PROFESSOR & DIRECTOR, FUTURES INITIATIVE, CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK: Absolutely. We will have more leaders in stem and all fields we have to have an educated citizenry. This is about the public's investment in college education. Now at the city University of New York and 80 percent of our students graduation tuition debt free because the state, the city invests 51 percent of the operating costs in the system. Many states are now down to 8 percent of the operating costs.

PEREIRA: That's why we're seeing the higher costs.

DAVIDSON: Exactly. Someone has to pay. It's either we pay collectively as a society or our students pay and we pay in our future by not having --

PEREIRA: By not having --

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: And that's indicative of what we're talking about, actually, was it today, I believe it was the protests that we saw at the University of California, Berkeley. I think we have video of that, some of the students there complaining and protesting.

Do we not have that video? Should be coming along in a second. We'll talk about it as we pull it up.

A proposed tuition hike at their school at Cal State Berkeley student debt is weighing down people so long after they graduate and that is such a tough proposition, Richard, when you think about a person starting out, right, in their early 20s, starting out in life, it's already that saddled with that kind of debt.

ARUM: But in the long term, the jobs that college graduates get more than pays off for the college loan debts with the exception of some very small extreme cases where people are taking on not the average student loan debts of 30,000, but 50,000, 100,000. Then they're perhaps is a question. But for again, the majority of students, the problem isn't the debt and the cost of higher education. It's what's happening and not happening in terms of academic experiences and student growth and learning in these institutions.

PEREIRA: Do you think the challenge is making sure that students have their eyes wide open now more than ever, going in, making sure they're much more targeted in what their course of study is and knowing what outcome of that education and the reality of getting a job is like?

DAVIDSON: Absolutely. But I think it's targeted when we talk about narrow vocationalism, we're condemning our students to being put out of a job. Things are changing so fast. I think we have to wholly reform education so it's about missions not majors and people understand the implications of their job and learn how to learn and learn how to change. Project management, time management, issues we're stressed about in our society, and we need programs that focus on those human qualities and work place qualities in a bigger sense, not simply on expertise in a very narrow disciplinary sense.

PEREIRA: In higher education, I know the leaders are often called to conferences internationally to work with your counterparts overseas, looking at their own systems. We know that some other countries have had some success in these areas. Any tidbits you think we could be applying here very quickly?

ARUM: Very quickly, the cost of college and university in the U.S. is twice per student what it is in most European countries. The outcomes are no better and if not arguably worse in certain respects. And so, you know, that gives us a lens into what possibly could be done differently here to focus on the core mission of preparing students well for adulthood.

PEREIRA: Richard Arum, sociology and education professor at New York University; Kathy Davidson, distinguished professor and director of the Future Initiative at the City University of New York, wonderful to have both of you here. Wonderful to have this discussion.

A film you can watch tonight, I hope both of you will tune in, "Ivory Tower," tonight at 9:00 p.m. After President Obama's prime time address on immigration, be sure to tune in for all of those hours. You have some viewing ahead of you.

That's it for me @THISHOUR. Thank you so much for joining me.

"LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right about now.