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@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA
Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel Resigns; Tensions Rise as Ferguson Awaits Grand Jury Decision; More Accusations against Bill Cosby
Aired November 24, 2014 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: So I go back to what Barbara Starr said, what does that mean as far as a new policy? And that, I think, is going to lead us into the Senate confirmation hearings, which I think will go even beyond the question of who the individual is or what our policy is going to be, because John McCain is the Chairman of -- is going to be the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and nobody has stronger views on our military and on what he believes is a failed policy in the Middle East than Senator McCain. So I think it will be very interesting. So I don't mean that from a partisan point of view, but from a philosophical point of view as to what the president's policy is going to be, how Senator McCain is going to accept that. I think it will be an interesting discussion as to what was named, also what the policy will be and how that will play out as far as confirmation.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Those hearings will be really, really fascinating because, as you correctly point out, Senator McCain is very well versed on all of these issues, whether it's, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan Iran, North Korea, those hearings, whoever the nominee turns out to be, will be fascinating.
Congressman King, stand by.
Christiane Amanpour is monitoring what's going on as well.
Christiane, give us your reaction. How will this play?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think precisely the questions that Barbara and Representative King have just raised. What is the policy going to be going forward? As President Obama said for the last quarter of his presidency. Obviously, you've all reported for many years now, since his first presidency, that there has been tension between the White House and the armed military. It's been played out on the ground over the last several years. Many, many, many of the highest-ranking armed uniform military plus the lowest ranking have been very uncomfortable about pulling out of, let's say, Iraq and Afghanistan before the job is done. And now as we've seen the results are all ready for us all to see and now this administration is having to go back in and try to get back a level playing field.
What is that going to mean for Syria and Iraq. What is it going to mean for essentially working with NATO allies like Turkey? Will there be a more robust attempt to fix what's going on in Syria and Iraq? Turkey wanted a no-fly zone. Turkey practically offered to be America's ground forces if the United States decides to go against Assad as well, believing that you cannot fight and defeat is if Assad remains in power. So will there be a shift in that regard? What about Afghanistan? The lesson of pulling out of Iraq has sort of mitigated a little bit the idea that all forces are going to be pulled out of Afghanistan, but as President Obama said this morning, just now, America's combat role in Afghanistan will end at the end of next month. So despite reports in newspapers that perhaps there may be a decision to continue America's combat role against the Taliban, in other words using air strikes, this and that, we're not sure yet. The president has not made that public yet. But certainly Michele Flournoy, if she's tapped as a successor, has told me that you mustn't pull back in any way unless objectives are made. You can't have that be made on a political timetable.
So it's all going to be very interesting, but there are real, real issues on the ground that have to be dealt with, and it's a very complex moment right now, Wolf, as we all know.
BLITZER: Christiane, I want you stand by as well.
Let's get military reaction. Retired Colonel, Rick Francona, CNN military analyst, is joining us right now.
How's this going to play with the military? They've got enormous problems right now the men and women of the United States military. When they see the defense secretary suddenly leaving, I think the -- even if maybe with hindsight we can say maybe it shouldn't be such a surprise given some of the differences between the secretary of defense and the White House. Certainly it did come out of the blue today. How will this play with the men and women of the United States military?
LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST; I think they're going to be very concerned because what we've seen over the last month, last couple of months, is Secretary Hagel becoming much more forceful and offering the kind of advice the president might not want to hear. He's talked about beefing up our attention to Syria. He's -- he and both -- both he and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Dempsey, have said we may need to put more troops in, we may need to put boots on the ground. These are the things the president is adamantly against. And it seems that the secretary has been echoing what the generals have been telling him. He's finally come around to their way of thinking and all of a sudden he's cut off at the knees. So this is going to cause a lot of concerns in the senior ranks all the way down to the troops in the field right now because they don't know what the policy is going forward. Just like everyone has mentioned, where are we going now? Will this signal a change in the leadership or where we're going?
BLITZER: I think that's well stated. Certainly an issue White House is going to have to address.
Rick Francona, stand by.
Jim Acosta is our senior White House correspondent. They will be very sensitive to the men and women of the United States
military. They'll have to put forward a nominee who will re-instill that confidence that the secretary of defense is with them.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You recall this talk before the midterms, will there be a big shakeup, and officials inside the White House are ensuring us before and after the midterm elections that there would not a big shakeup. But we have a slow- motion shakeup occurring when you have Eric Holder departing this White House when you have Chuck Hagel departing this White House.
But no question about it. Chuck Hagel was a different kind of defense secretary, as President Obama said during his remarks. He's been in the dirt. He's been in the mud. A Vietnam veteran. And so perhaps that is why you're seeing Senator Jack Reed's name on this short list. Perhaps he won't be the nominee for the next secretary of defense. He already has a spokesman putting out statements in the last hour or so saying he wants to remain in the Senate. So perhaps that's why his name is on the list.
No question about it, Wolf, there are people inside this military who are wondering where is this mission heading with respect to going after ISIS when it comes to going after al Qaeda and Afghanistan. We saw those adjustments over the weekend that were announced by this administration where the president is now saying that there might be offensive operations, perhaps just to protect American personnel, but also to go after al Qaeda and counterterrorism operations in Afghanistan. Perhaps they don't want a repeat of what happened in Iraq when a total pullout occurred.
Yet, you saw this cancer grow up inside Syria that spread into Iraq and has destabilized the entire region. So there are big questions for this national security team, as Barbara Starr was saying. Martin Dempsey has not been shrinking from putting out the possibility that putting out ground troops might be necessary. I asked the president about this as he wrapped up that trip to Asia and Australia and he said, maybe if ISIS were to get a nuclear weapon, then he would put ground troops in Iraq. That's a very remote possibility, Wolf. It sounds like the president isn't moving from that position that there might be cases where he's going to have to put troops on the ground.
So I think as Chuck Hagel demonstrated, perhaps unintentionally, this national security team, this White House, they're not on the same page when it comes to dealing with this big threat that they'll reason is to hand off to the next administration, Republican or Democrat. And the president has made it clear and top administration officials have made it clear they're not going to be able to solve the ISIS problem, they don't think, before President Obama's time is up. That's a big reason why this next secretary of defense is so critical.
BLITZER: And I assume the president is vetting some candidates right now. We should have a decision very, very soon.
All right, guys, thanks very much.
Christiane Amanpour, thanks to you, Jim Acosta, Colonel Rick Francona. We'll continue out coverage.
I'll be back at 1:00 p.m. eastern, a little bit more than an hour or so for much more coverage.
Your programming will continue on CNN and CNN international after a quick break.
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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John Berman.
MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: He's John Berman. We missed him, didn't we?
I'm Michaela Pereira. All these stories ahead for you.
BERMAN: We are watching Ferguson. Any minute, we could get decisions from the grand jury investigating the shooting death of Michael Brown. Will they decide to indict police officer, Darren Wilson, or will they clear him of any state charges in the killing of the unarmed teenager.
PEREIRA: The weight has been excruciatingly tense in Ferguson.
Our Ana Cabrera is there outside the courthouse in Missouri where the grand jury has been meeting.
Ana, a decision we know was expected days ago. What's the latest? What's the feeling on the ground there?
ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are just in a waiting game right now Michaela and John, as you mentioned. We believe the grand jury is currently going over their proceedings and deliberating behind me in the justice center in St. Louis County. I can tell you there is a fairly large law enforcement presence here around the media staging area across the street just making sure everything stays peaceful but as you can see behind me, pretty quiet here, it's a cold day here in the St. Louis area and perhaps that's keeping people indoors for the moment. But people are certainly very anxious to hear what the decision will be and at this point we don't know even exactly when that announcement will come following a decision that's made.
John and Michaela?
BERMAN: Ana, do we know the mechanism by which we will be informed when it does happen? Does someone come out or do they send out a press release?
CABRERA: There's been a lot of mystery in all this. We've been certainly contacting the prosecutor's office today to get a little bit more guidance as to what we can anticipate. What we do know is there is supposed to be some kind of press release giving information, whether that's where to meet for an announcement, when that announcement is going to be made. We know exactly what they will be able to inform us of at any given moment. We do know that there's now a little bit of question about whether law enforcement will receive much notice. They were initially told that they would be given 48 hours notice after a decision was made to when an announcement would go public about that decision and now some sources are telling CNN that that 48-hour window may have been closed and that that announcement may be more imminent following a decision. So we'll have to wait and see. We'll be here and keep you posted on anything we learn.
John and Michaela, back to you.
PEREIRA: Ana Cabrera, our thank you to you. Thanks so much for that.
BERMAN: Interesting news out of the "New York Times" and "St. Louis Dispatch" saying Officer Darren Wilson got married over the last few weeks.
PEREIRA: And where he would have gotten married would be just a few steps from where the grand jury is reconvening and deliberating.
BERMAN: It's very, very interesting. CNN working to confirm that but that in the "New York Times" and the "St. Louis Post-Dispatch."
Ahead for us @THISHOUR, a new woman steps forward accusing comedian, Bill Cosby, of sexual assault. Why she decided to come forward decades after this alleged encounter.
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PEREIRA: At least 15 women have come forward in the past two weeks to accuse comedian, Bill Cosby, of sexual assault. You're about to meet another accuser who says Cosby assaulted her almost 50 years ago. 12 of the alleged victims have either spoken to CNN about their accusations, talked on camera about them, or had their claims addressed by Cosby's attorney. The latest woman to come forward is making claims that are the earliest known allegations in the case.
PEREIRA: Our Alisyn Camerota spoke to this new accuser.
Alisyn, this happened a long time ago.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It happened in 1965. Her name is Kristina Ruehli. She was 22 years old when this happened. And there's been a lot of speculation on social media as to why these women are coming forward and whether or not there's any gain for them. So when I know I sat down with Kristina, I asked her, I said, "Have you ever made any money or would you take any money for your story?"
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KRISTINA RUEHLI, ACCUSES BILL COSBY OF SEXUAL ASSAULT: I am a very -- woman that's very comfortable financially. I'm really happy. I have everything. I don't want his money. Or anyone else's.
CAMEROTA: So why are you coming forward?
RUEHLI: Two reasons. One, I don't like to see these other women who had similar experiences called liars and trashed in the media when I know that I can speak for them. And the second reason, it was that it might encourage others because I thought, well, these are all new that I didn't know about and there may be dozens or hundreds of other victims.
CAMEROTA (voice-over): 71-year-old Kristina Ruehli says her encounter with Bill Cosby took place in 1965 when she was 22 years old, making hers the earliest known alleged case. She was working as a secretary at a talent agency when she says Cosby invited her and several co- workers to a party at his house.
(on camera): You get to the party, or the beginning of what you think will be a party and he prepares a cocktail for you.
RUEHLI: Yes. A Bourbon and 7.
CAMEROTA: You had two drinks?
RUEHLI: I had two drinks that I'm clear about.
CAMEROTA: And then what happened?
RUEHLI: I don't remember a thing. I -- it went blank. When you're in that kind of a foggy state, you don't think of anything but that had you drunk too much. So I must have passed out again because when I awakened again, I found myself on a bed.
CAMEROTA: And then what happened?
RUEHLI: He was there, he had his shirt off and I believe he had his pants off. It's pretty groggy. And he had his hand on the back of my head.
CAMEROTA (voice-over): She says he then tried to force her to perform oral sex.
RUEHLI: I lifted my head away, I think it surprised him. I lifted my head away and pulled myself away immediately. And I went into the bathroom and I threw up and I know I threw up a couple of times. When I finished, I came out and he was gone.
CAMEROTA: Kristina believes it could have been worse, that Cosby could have raped her. She told her boyfriend at the time what happened.
(on camera): Did you tell anyone else other than your boyfriend?
RUEHLI: I might have. I might have. But it's something that sort of how you would tell your boyfriend but not girlfriends? Things were different. You talked about different things. You didn't talk about date rape with a girlfriend.
CAMEROTA: Did it ever occur to you to go to the police?
RUEHLI: No. He had not injured me. What had he done? He had exposed himself to me but this was the '60s. And it never occurred to me to go to the police. I just went on with my life. CAMEROTA: People are skeptical.
RUEHLI: I know.
CAMEROTA: That Bill Cosby did this to you and to the other women. Bill Cosby was a likable, beloved celebrity --
RUEHLI: He was likable.
CAMEROTA: -- back in the '60s and '70s. So why did he have to resort to drugging women?
RUEHLI: I don't think he's very attractive or sexy. I guess that's just my viewpoint. Maybe he is inadequate inside but I heard this was a routine of his all the time. Rape is about power, not sex. Rape is about anger, not sex. And until he had this series, "I Spy," which was a series he had then, he was just a comedian. And the power that he found in his hands, he abused.
CAMEROTA (voice-over): In 2005, 40 years later, Kristina read about another alleged victim, Andrea Constand (ph). She became one of the 13 Jane Does in the case which was settled for an undisclosed amount.
(on camera): So you basically volunteered your services and memory to this other lawsuit?
RUEHLI: Yes.
CAMEROTA: But you did not stand to gain for being part of that lawsuit?
RUEHLI: Oh, no. I didn't need it and I didn't need the aggravation. But I thought, what's the worst thing that something could happen to me? That somebody calls me a liar.
CAMEROTA: I want to read you a statement from Bill Cosby's attorney. "Lawsuits are filed against people every day. There has never been a shortage of lawyers willing to represent people with claims against rich, powerful men, so it makes no sense that not one of these women who have just come forward for the first time now ever asserted a legal claim back at the time they allege they had been sexually assaulted."
RUEHLI: Well, rich lawyers can be hired for rich, powerful mean to speak for them when they are silent. That's my answer.
CAMEROTA (voice-over): Cosby's attorney did not provide CNN with a specific response to Kristina's claims.
(on camera): What do you think is going to happen next? Do you think there's such a din now being created by these more than a dozen women?
RUEHLI: I think more will come forward. Whatever you follow here, it doesn't end with me.
CAMEROTA: Do you think it's time for Bill Cosby to come forward and say something?
RUEHLI: I do. I wish he had courage. I wish he had the balls. Who would want 15 minutes of this kind of, not fame, shame? So I'm here -- not that I think I'm this great courageous, character person, but to say to the others who have come forward and who I hope will come forward, it takes courage.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BERMAN: Such an interesting discussion. Just to listen to her talk about it, it's almost matter of fact. Do you get a sense that it was hard for her to speak about this at such length right now?
CAMEROTA: I don't think it was hard for her. Obviously sexual assault -- alleged sexual assault affects people in all different ways and hearse was not an emotional response. She felt she had a responsibility now to come forward. She didn't feel traumatized by what happened but she does think that it was disgusting and she said she has a very supportive husband who is financially stable who encouraged her to come forward now, again, to show solidarity with the other accusers.
PEREIRA: She showed solidarity before but as a Jane Doe.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
PEREIRA: This time, she threw away the paper bag and said, this is who I am, and spoke forward.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
Do you think these women will gather together at some point? Have they spoken to one another?
CAMEROTA: She has not yet spoken to any of the other accusers but like so many that you and I have spoken to, she saw their stories online, she saw them in the news --
BERMAN: Look at them.
CAMEROTA: -- and she felt she wanted to support them. Michaela, it's so interesting because they come from all walks of life. We have seen really the gamut.
(CROSSTALK)
PEREIRA: And it's affecting them all differently.
CAMEROTA: Absolutely. There are people who have gone on to have troubled lives. She's very honest and she's had a privileged life. It really covers the gamut of experiences.
PEREIRA: Great interview, Alisyn. Thank you for sharing it with us. We appreciate it.
CAMEROTA: Thanks. BERMAN: That's all for us. Thank you so much for joining us
@THISHOUR. I'm John Berman.
PEREIRA: You'll be back later today.
BERMAN: I do not think I will be back today.
PEREIRA: Will you be back tomorrow?
BERMAN: I will be back tomorrow.
PEREIRA: I like that.
I'm Michaela Pereira.
"LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.
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