Return to Transcripts main page

WOLF

Protests Nationwide for Michael Brown; Snowy Roads Making a Mess; Michael Brown's Family Attorney Speaks Out; Missouri National Guard Deployed in Ferguson; Federal Investigation in Ferguson

Aired November 26, 2014 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Right now, two storms brewing across the United States. The first, protests nationwide following the decision not to indict the Ferguson, Missouri police officer, Darren Wilson, in the shooting death of Michael Brown.

And it's also a mess out there for travelers hitting the road for this Thanksgiving holiday. Snowy and wet roads in some areas, lots of flights delayed, canceled. And the storm sitting over the east coast. Let's get started.

Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 9:00 p.m. in Moscow, 2:00 a.m. Thursday in Beijing. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

I have a clear conscience and I did my job right. That's what the officer, Darren Wilson, says in his first television interview since the grand jury's decision not to indict him. We're going to get more of that interview in a few moments.

Right now, the streets are quiet in Ferguson after two nights of violent protests. Our Stephanie Elam has more now on the anger in Ferguson and the many protests across the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sirens ring out in Ferguson, Missouri. Demonstrators facing off with police for the second night in a row. Tensions coming to a boil as protesters overturn and set fire to a police cruiser after a day of relatively peaceful protests. Police and National Guard responding with a heavier hand than the night before, arresting 44 protesters, using hoses and pepper spray to disperse the crowd.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will get justice by any means necessary!

ELAM: This as anger over the grand jury's decision spreads across the country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we want?

CROWD: Justice! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When do we want it?

CROWD: Now!

ELAM: Demonstrators flooding the streets yesterday in about 170 cities nationwide, blocking bridges, tunnels and major highways from coast to coast. Thousands of protesters snaked their way through the streets of New York City, jamming traffic, holding signs and chanting loudly.

CROWD: (INAUDIBLE.)

ELAM: Across the country in downtown Los Angeles, protesters rally, knocking down fences and blocking the 101 Freeway with roadblocks and debris. In Oakland, protests took a more violent turn. News helicopters capturing footage of vandals smashing windows, looting local businesses and lighting bonfires.

In Minneapolis, a moment of rage as a car plows through a group of demonstrators running over a protester's leg.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was honking and getting mad that people wouldn't move and then he just plowed through.

ELAM: According to authorities, the woman was taken to the hospital and is being treated for very minor injuries. The incident currently under investigation.

In Cincinnati, 15 demonstrators arrested after scaling concrete barriers and briefly shutting down Interstate 75.

Denver police also responding to protesters trying to move onto their interstate, using smoke bombs and pepper spray to deter the demonstrators.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They said mace. Pull out the mace. Mace everybody.

ELAM: From Atlanta to Boston, the nation's capital, protesters taking to the streets and making their voices heard as authorities attempt to contain a growing sense of outrage across the country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: So, that report from Stephanie Elam from Ferguson, Missouri. Later this hour, our Max Foster in London has a special report on how the world, how the international community is reacting to what's going on here in the United States in the aftermath, in the aftermath, of the Ferguson decision.

Today, we're also hearing from the officer, Darren Wilson. He details what he says happened on that day and how he claims Michael Brown tried to shoot him with his own gun and what is it about the officer -- the officer, Darren Wilson, that apparently made him such a standout witness before the grand jury? The former attorney general, Alberto Gonzales, standing by to join us. We'll discuss with him. Plus, the Ferguson reaction is not just limited to the United States. As I noted, people from London to Russia to China, all over the world. And people are watching us here on CNN right now all over the world. They're reacting to the mayhem in Missouri. We'll have a full report. Max Foster standing by in London.

And Thanksgiving holiday travel is getting a hefty helping of bad weather here in the United States. We're watching the roads, the skies and your forecast for this busy holiday travel day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LESLEY MCSPADDEN: Our son doesn't have a history of violence. One image does not paint a person's entire life or their entire past on how they were. We all do have a past. And Nixon is one of the ones that came to me and let me know that that shouldn't even be part of this procedure. Because when he was 18, he did things and if people had of known, he wouldn't be governor. So, that, to me, was saying this didn't call for you to take my son's life. If something happened in that store -- and that's a big if, that could have been dealt with. But you didn't have to do what you did. He didn't do what he had to do. He did what he wanted to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. What he wanted to do?

MCSPADDEN: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You think he wanted to kill your son?

MCSPADDEN: I don't think he wanted to kill my son, but he wanted to kill someone.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Strong words from Michael Brown's mother speaking out this morning about the death of her son. And for the first time, we're also now hearing from the police officer, Darren Wilson, the man who shot Michael Brown. In an interview with ABC News, Wilson says he feared for his life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARREN WILSON: I was like this and I brought my gun up like that. And what said is, get back or I'm going to shoot you. And then, his response, immediately, he grabbed the top of my gun. And when he grabbed it, he said, you're too much of a (INAUDIBLE) to shoot me. And he did that, he had twisted it, and put it down into my hip and has the barrel dug into the crease of my -- in my left hip. And while he was doing that, I could feel his hand trying to come over my hand and get inside the trigger guard and try and shoot me with my own gun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Strong words from him as well. Let's talk about all this, including the officer's interview.

We're joined by Anthony Gray, he's an attorney for Michael Brown's family. He's joining us from New York right now. Mr. Gray, thanks very much for coming in.

ANTHONY GRAY, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL BROWN: No problem, Wolf. Glad to be here.

BLITZER: All right. So, you just heard this excerpt from the officer. And he describes the encounter, what he recollects happened. What's your reaction? I'm sure you watched that interview on ABC News.

GRAY: Well, my initial reaction, when I heard the entire interview, I was really astonished because it deviated so much in detail from what he initially told his supervisor that arrived at the scene. And, as I pointed out before, that was a statement he made before he was prepped, before he rehearsed, before he was lawyered up. And so, to me, I didn't buy the story just -- and there's no trust in what he's saying. I could just tell that most of it is just a rehearsed version of events that he is recalling from memory of the rehearsal and not from the events that happened on Canfield.

BLITZER: And what do you say to those who say the forensic evidence, the scientific evidence, the blood splattered, whatever, sort of backs up his side of the story?

GRAY: And that's interesting because it backs up a multitude of different scenarios. One in which a gun is out. And, quite naturally, if Mike Brown is being grabbed by officer Darren Wilson and officer Darren Wilson has a grip on him, at the same time, he's pulling out a weapon, the question is, would Mike Brown have the right to keep himself from being shot and killed by an officer who's out of control by trying to divert the pistol? I mean, there are different scenarios that would justify that same forensic evidence. It's just not an evidentiary finding that supports Darren Wilson. And you've got to look at it in its totality. And when you look at it from both ways, you know, he could give a story that matches the forensic testimony. And I think that the witnesses have given a version of events that match it as well.

BLITZER: Because Robert McCulloch, he's the prosecutor, the St. Louis County prosecutor. He says there were witnesses who said that they did, in fact, see Michael Brown charging the police officer. The police officer, Darren Wilson, says he was scared for his life. And he says some of those witnesses were, in fact, African-American. When you heard him say that at the news conference the other night, what was your reaction?

GRAY: Well, I wanted to wait until I actually got my hands on the transcript to read that. Now, there was, in fact, a person who initially in a video said he was coming towards him. Now, when he got in front of the grand jury, that spontaneous statement he made on video on the day of the shooting did change into a charge. And I -- and you know what? And I'm not going to question the motive behind that or anything. I can tell you other parts of that same witness's testimony was inconsistent with the forensic evidence that did not match up, in terms of the number of shots that were fired at one point or the other. And I just don't want to get into all the different discrepancies. I'm going to leave it up to you guys to figure that out. I don't want to comment too much on it. There's a federal investigation that's still ongoing. But there are parts of that witness's account that doesn't line up. But you know what? They didn't threaten to file perjury charges against him. That part was left out. They just took the piece that lined up with what Officer Wilson had to say and they ran with that part. And that part was highlighted in his testimony and all the inconsistencies were ignored.

BLITZER: Let me ask you about the next steps. You represent the family. We know there are two federal investigations, one into the civil rights of Michael Brown, one into the police department in Ferguson, Missouri. But is it on the agenda that you guys, the lawyers for the Michael Brown family, might file a wrongful death lawsuit?

GRAY: Everything is on the table, Wolf. And we're going to examine which direction we're going to go in at the appropriate time. We don't want to jump the gun with that. We certainly are hopeful that the other investigations would, perhaps, you know, dig into this matter a little bit further. We're going to sit back, be hopeful, wait and see and make our decisions based off of the situation as it unfolds.

WOLF: Anthony Gray is an attorney for Michael Brown's family. Mr. Gray, thanks very much for joining us.

GRAY: No, no problem. Thank you.

BLITZER: So, how well are authorities prepared for the next round of protests if they come? Joining us on the phone from Baton Rouge, Louisiana is the retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General Russell Honore. He was the commander of the Joint Task Force Katrina, the author of the book "Leadership is a New Normal." General, what do you think? The National Guard, bigger numbers, more than 2,000 deployed last night in the Ferguson area, about 700, the first night. And they were sort of invisible. It's pretty important that they have a visibility, right?

LT. GEN. RUSSELL HONORE, U.S. ARMY (via telephone): That's correct. And that's a well-trained, well-equipped National Guard unit. They deployed -- we've got two of those battalions in there, Wolf, and multiple deployments overseas. So, they have seasoned noncommissioned officers that have seen tough scenes before.

And from what I saw on television last night, they measured themselves well. So we're very proud of those National Guard troops. And the state of Missouri has 9,000 National Guard troops. So if they need more, all they have to do is call for them.

BLITZER: Their mere presence, I think, is a deterrent. Are these National Guard troops, based on what you know, General Honore, I know they've got these shields, I know they've got the batons, but are they armed? HONORE: Yes. I saw them last night. They had sidearms, I think (ph) 9

millimeter.

BLITZER: They do -- with ammunition, as far as you know?

HONORE: As far as I know, yes. So they will go out with that. That would be normal, Wolf, for MPs, most of them are MP. They've got two battalions, the MPs, in Missouri. More than most other states. So, from what I saw, I would assume that they were - they did have ammunition with them.

BLITZER: How well-trained are they, these National Guard personnel, for this kind of dealing with protests that potentially could become violent?

HONORE: Well, they've - they're better trained now than they were in August, I can bet you that. Knowing the National Guard, they've spent hours. And they're at the home of our military police crew (ph) out at Ft. Leonard Wood. So I'm sure between that and what the guard normally do, I'll bet my money on that they're well-trained, well-equipped and they're going to do a good job.

They are citizen soldiers and they know their mission. Most of the time they're doing nothing but going and rescuing people. And when they get a mission like this, they understand and they know what they got to do. I just hope that they can keep the momentum up, as well as keep their calm and keep backing up the police so the police don't get too excited as they start to respond to some of these civil acts of disobedience, so they can really go after the ones that do the hard crimes, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, General Honore, as usual, thanks very much for joining us. Russel Honore, he did a magnificent job for the American people in the aftermath of Katrina, as all of us remember.

The grand jury did not hand up an indictment in the shooting death of Michael Brown, but there is still not one but two federal investigations underway. Is it the federal government's responsibility now to take action? What do they expect to find? The former attorney general of the United States, Alberto Gonzales, there he is, he's standing by live. We'll assess what's going on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: There are still two federal investigations ongoing in Ferguson, Missouri. One into the shooting death of Michael Brown, the other into the relationship of the Ferguson Police Department with minorities. Here's what the attorney general of the United States, Eric Holder, said about the probes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The department's investigations will continue to be thorough, they will continue to be independent, and they remain ongoing. They will be conducted rigorously and in a timely manner so that we can move forward as expeditiously as we can to restore trust, to rebuild understanding and to foster cooperation between law enforcement and community members.

Additionally, I have instructed department officials to continue to maintain contact with leaders of the peaceful protesters and to seek their assistance in isolating those individuals who are inclined towards violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Joining us now from Nashville is Alberto Gonzales. He's the former attorney general in the George W. Bush administration.

Attorney general, thanks very much for joining us. You think it's appropriate for the federal government, the Justice Department, to be engaged in these two separate investigations?

ALBERTO GONZALES, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, I think that is their job. Their job is to enforce civil rights violations. And, in August, when the shooting occurred, the attorney general announced that they were engaged in this - in these two investigations. One as to whether or not were the civil rights of Michael Brown violated, and they're also doing this pattern and practice examination of the Ferguson Police Department. So I think it's perfectly appropriate because there are laws on the book that prohibit this kind of conduct and that's the job of the Justice Department, which is to investigate and prosecute when it's warranted.

BLITZER: So the investigation into Michael Brown's civil rights, what would be the argument there that his civil rights were violated?

GONZALES: It's going to be pretty high standard, Wolf. Basically they'll have to show that the killing was motivated because of Michael Brown's race, that that was the primary motivation, or that there was excessive force based upon the views - upon race. And so it's a pretty tough standard. And, you know, when I look at the evidence - and obviously I haven't seen all of it -- I'm not sure that that standard can't be met in this particular case. But the department does have an obligation to look to see whether or not any laws have been violated.

BLITZER: So if they want to file a charge, would that be probable cause they would need? They would need a higher standard beyond a reasonable doubt, right?

GONZALES: Well, of course, they would -- the probable cause standard would exist with respect to the pursuing of any indictment. And then, of course, once you go to trial, the standard becomes higher - higher than probable cause.

BLITZER: But you would be surprised if they were to file charges based on a violation of Michael Brown's civil rights?

GONZALES: Well, I hope that's the case. Again, it's a higher standard. There is - there is additional political pressure now on the department to move forward with some kind of charge. But I hope the department's able to resist that because this should be based upon, you know, what the evidence shows. And so hopefully the department will resist any kind of political pressure, any kind of personal views about what happened at the state level and follow the evidence and make the right decision here.

BLITZER: Because they would have to prove that the officer, Darren Wilson, shot and killed Michael Brown at least in part because he was a black man, right?

GONZALES: That's correct. And there's certainly no evidence that I've seen that indicates that to be the case. And, obviously, we've all heard the interview with Officer Wilson and I think he was asked that specific question, whether or not it made a -- would it have made a difference in this particular case? And he said, absolutely not.

BLITZER: The other investigation involves the Ferguson Police Department. It's a small community, Ferguson. About 70 percent of the community is African-American, we're told. There's maybe 50 or 60 police officers in Ferguson. All but three of them are white. Is that what the Justice Department is looking into right now, whether there's built-in racism in the Ferguson Police Department?

GONZALES: Well, now - well, obviously that in and of itself is not a civil rights violation. I think they're going to - they're going to look - they're going to examine whether or not there's any kind of discrimination in terms of hiring practices, but also in connection with the enforcement of the law. I think that's something - that's -- they're going to look to see whether or not, is there a pattern and practice of discrimination based upon race? And - so that's what the department's going to look at. And, again, I hope -- I'm hopeful that irrespective of what's happened with respect to the state charges, the Department of Justice is going to move forward with this investigation in a professional, straightforward way as it would normally do in any case.

BLITZER: Yesterday the president spoke out on what's going on in the aftermath of the Ferguson decision. He was in Chicago. Let me play this little clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Next week we'll bring together state and local officials and law enforcement and community leaders and faith leaders to start identifying very specific steps that we can take to make sure that law enforcement is fair and is being applied equally to every person in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: He's asked the attorney general, Eric Holder, to put together this dialogue, if you will, because he says there is a perception out there that black people in the United States are treated differently by law enforcement than white people. You're the former attorney general of the United States. Do you agree that there is that perception out there, two standards, if you will?

GONZALES: Well, I think there's a clear perception. And you look at some of the numbers in terms of the number -- the ratio of blacks to whites that are charged, that are prosecuted in our courts. You know, I remember after the Virginia Tech shootings, President Bush directed me and the secretary of education and secretary of Health and Human Services to go around the country and we had these town hall meetings to try to examine, why are we having school shootings after the Virginia Tech shootings? And so I support this effort by the president. And, of course, today, we still have - we still have shootings. And so we obviously still have some challenges. And I suspect even after we do this fact-finding that the president has now called for, that we'll continue to have problems. But I think - I think this is a very healthy and I think very healthy dialogue and very worthy debate to have.

BLITZER: All right, Alberto Gonzales, the former attorney general of the United States, thanks very much for joining us.

GONZALES: Thanks for having me, Wolf.

BLITZER: And I hope you and your family have a wonderful, wonderful Thanksgiving.

Coming up, congressional reaction to the Ferguson decision. Is President Obama making the right move by asking for a closer look from law enforcement?

And pictures from Ferguson, they're being seen around the world. We'll take a closer look at what the world is saying about the protests, the violence here in the United States.

And a very different story we're monitoring right now. Rain and snow from here in Washington, D.C., up to Boston and beyond, could delay a lot of Thanksgiving dinner plans. What's expected to be the busiest Thanksgiving travel holiday in seven years could be dramatically affected because of this winter weather.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)