Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

No Indictment in NYPD Chokehold Death

Aired December 3, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And you're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for joining me here, as we have some breaking news into us at CNN.

We have now learned that these members of this grand jury in Staten Island, New York, have decided not to indict police officer Daniel Pantaleo, who placed Eric Garner in a chokehold, which is against department policy here in New York on the street back in July.

And what was different from this, because immediately we are aware of what happened just a little over a week ago with the nonindictment in Ferguson, Missouri, of the police officer that shot and killed 18- year-old Michael Brown. The difference here is what you're looking at.

There was cell phone video. You see Mr. Garner on the ground. You see him surrounded by police officers. Let me back up as well, because he was accused of doing something illegal. He was accused of selling loosies, loose cigarettes that aren't taxed. That's against the law.

He was confronted by police. There was a back and forth. Resisted arrest. He said, I can't breathe. I can't breathe. Police take him down. He ultimately dies. Grand jury had to get together and decide whether or not that police officer who placed him in that chokehold should face indictment and they have just returned the nonindictment.

We have a lot to talk about this next hour here live on CNN.

But let me begin with our correspondent Joe Johns, who is joining me just outside of the district attorney's office.

Joe, tell me what you know.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hi.

Yes, I take probably the information you need to know right now, he remains on modified assignment while all of this transpires. There's a United States attorney's investigation into whether the rights of Eric Garner may have been violated, the civil rights.

There's a larger question about the chokehold that you see on camera. The altercation came before and then the man is grabbed around the neck, taken to the ground. He apparently had some physical ailments, including asthma. The question is how much of that certainly contributed to his death?

In the big picture, though, the question here is whether there will be a large community reaction. I know that when I got here just a little while ago, I walked into one store and I heard a man telling a shopkeeper that he was here to demonstrate about the death of Eric Garner.

There's clearly concern in this community about this, especially coming on the heels of what happened in Ferguson, Missouri, and coming on the heels of that video shot in the middle of July. We're waiting to try to find out whether the prosecutor, the district attorney here will go before the cameras to talk a little bit about this case.

He's seen by many as a straight shooter and has actually gotten indictments of police officers before this. Another thing I think we should say about Daniel Pantaleo, there have been a couple lawsuits alleging wrongdoing by that officer. One of them was dismissed. Another one is still active.

The question of use of force comes up, the appropriate use of force by police officers. We do know that the New York Police Department has now instituted retraining of officers on how to handle situations like this apparently in light of the death of Eric Garner.

So awaiting to hear from the officials and also waiting to hear what the community is going to do and whether there will be demonstrations. Interesting also to note the Christmas tree lighting down in Rockefeller Center is planned for this evening and there had been some concerns about whether action on this case here in Staten Island might lead to demonstrations of some sort down there. We just don't know all of that right now, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We are hearing it might. We will get to that in just a moment, according to my guest here on set with me here in New York. Joe Johns, thank you very much. Again, Joe reiterating this police officer who was not indicted still on modified assignment.

Paul Callan, he is one of our CNN legal analysts and he joins me here on the phone.

Paul, your first visceral reaction to the news? No indictment.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Given what we see on the videotape, I think my reaction is pretty much the same as everybody's else, that it's kind of shocking, because when you look at the videotape, he looks like a helpless individual on the ground who at some point is saying I can't breathe and he later winds up dead as a result of it. Most people would say, how could you not indict the police in that situation?

But I will tell you that, having been a prosecutor in New York City myself and knowing a lot of the people involved in the case, that it's very unusual and very difficult to indict a police officer in New York City, and as we know from other places such as Ferguson, Missouri, and other parts of the country as well. There are reasons I think that the grand jury may have reached this

decision. The autopsy report on Eric Garner showed that he was suffering from asthma, that he had a cardiac condition and that obesity also contributed to his death, in addition to the fact that the chokehold was involved in pressure on his chest.

So you had a lot of cops here who were involved in effecting the arrest. It wasn't just officers Pantaleo who allegedly used the chokehold. A number of officers were required, because Eric Garner was a guy who was over 6 foot tall and weighed 350 pounds. When they tried to arrest him, he wouldn't submit to arrest. He was very angry.

When the case first broke, I remember being struck by the fact that he had a lot of prior arrests, I think about 31 arrests on his record, most of them very minor offenses like selling loose cigarettes. So he kind of knew the drill, that, you know, when the cops come and you're under arrest, you have to submit, but he didn't. And so they had to knock him down or at least they felt they had to knock him down.

And, of course, they, I'm sure, would have told the grand jury we didn't know he had a heart problem and we didn't have he had asthma. And so it may very well be that the grand jury when they looked at the entire context of the case felt that you couldn't put responsibility on a particular officer. And that's not a surprise really. Grand juries do this all the time. They're very protective of police officers.

BALDWIN: Paul, let me ask you something that's just incredibly simple, but talking to so many people about what happened in Ferguson and now I'm just thinking about it when we're talking about what happened here in Staten Island. Why did this go to a grand jury? Why didn't this go to trial?

CALLAN: One of the things I found really disturbing about the discussion of Ferguson was this talk that what had happened in Ferguson was bizarre and never happens any place else in the country.

Well, the truth of the matter is, there are thousands of counties in America with grand juries impaneled and they use a lot of different methods. I can tell you that New York City in cases that involve police officers pretty much universally use this method, the method I think district attorney Dan Donovan used, which is all of the evidence is presented to the grand jury and in this case it was a special grand jury.

Unlike Missouri, this grand jury consisted of 23 people; 12 have to vote in favor of an indictment, for an indictment to lie. Now, bear in mind, in Ferguson, there were only 12 people on the jury. But nine of them had to vote for an indictment. In New York, the rules are different.

However, the thing that is similar between what the DA in New York did and the prosecutor in Ferguson, Missouri, did, is that they both decided that they were going to present all of the evidence to the grand jury and to just advise the grand jury of the law and allow the grand jury to make the decision whether to indict or not indict. Now, in New York, all felony cases are presented to a grand jury.

Most of them, they go in very quickly. It's one or two witnesses. It's sort of a bare-bones presentation to make out probable cause. But in cases involving police officers and in high-profile cases, a lot of times a different approach is taken.

And I think we're going to find out later on that that happened here, although I will tell you one thing, Brooke. I'm betting you're never going to see the grand jury testimony that was elicited in this case because New York courts have been very adamant in enforcing grand jury secrecy laws. And I would be very, very surprised if you would ever see the exact testimony that was heard before this grand jury released.

It would be a violation of grand jury secrecy.

BALDWIN: Unlike in Ferguson, Missouri. Paul Callan, I appreciate you jumping on the phone for me, talking about this breaking news.

If you have been wondering, we have been showing you live pictures of Bay Street. This is the street in which we saw Eric Garner through this cell phone video resisting arrest and being taken down by these police officers and we have also started to hear from some of the people, some of the reaction from the streets of Staten Island. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You got to be kidding. You have really got -- they didn't indict him? Why? Where's the justice at?

All do I is pray that the Staten Island people will band together. We will still stand. And we will rally. Maybe this decision can turn for the better, but my heart and my prayers go out to the family and his children, because I know right now they're not very happy about the decision, but, you know, only -- it's in God's hands.

And I continue to pray that justice will be peace. It has to be justice. Somewhere or another, there has to be justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is ridiculous. This is outrageous. This is an outrage. I am very upset about this verdict. I'm standing here because Eric Garner was my friend. It was over a lousy cigarette they killed the man.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that's crazy. That's ridiculous. I cannot believe that. That's so unfair. Anybody with eyes can see what happened. How in the hell did it go that way?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The reactions are beginning. Will there be demonstrations tonight? Will there be marches and protests like we saw in the wake of what happened in Ferguson, Missouri? Let's talk about that on the other side of the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: And we're back here on CNN live with breaking news here.

No indictment handed down involving the police officer who held Eric Garner back in July in that chokehold on Bay Street in Staten Island here in New York. The grand jury has decided not to indict that police officer, Mr. Pantaleo.

I'm joined by Kevin Jackson in Saint Louis. I have Michael Skolnik sitting to my right, alongside Michaela Angela Davis, because, when you look at this, big picture, we saw what happened. We saw the anger and the frustration and the sadness from what happened from among a lot of people, the nonindictment in Ferguson, Missouri, and now you have this nonindictment in New York.

Michael Skolnik, first to you, because you all have been madly on your phones ever since this news broke. The big event tonight in the city is the lighting of the Christmas tree in Rockefeller Center and are you hearing anything about that?

MICHAEL SKOLNIK, EDITOR IN CHIEF, GLOBALGRIND.COM: I'm hearing a lot of things. A lot of folks are confused on what to do and where to go and there's a lot of pain. A lot of people are very, very upset and frustrated.

There's a call to go to Foley Square right now, which is downtown New York City. We will be there. There's a call to go to Staten Island. There's a call to go to the Christmas tree lighting in Rockefeller Center. But we will march peacefully. Let's be very clear. We will march peacefully. We have the protection.

I was with the mayor on Monday in D.C. with the meeting with the president. The mayor promised us that he will allow us to march peacefully through the city and protect our First Amendment rights, and I trust that he will. He's done an incredible job trying to reform this police department his first 10 months here in office and I respect that man.

But he has a long way to go to fix these problems in the NYPD. And we will march peacefully, because what we saw today in Staten Island is an injustice. The body cameras -- the president is asking for 50,000 new body cameras. We know that's not enough. It's a step.

But we saw this death on camera. We need more. We more de-escalation tactics training for police. We need implicit and explicit bias training for police. We need a lot more than just body cameras. But folks will march in the city tonight. I will join them proudly. And we will march peacefully.

BALDWIN: You said your Twitter feed is full of pain.

MICHAELA ANGELA DAVIS, EDITORIAL BRAND MANAGER, BET: It is full of pain. That's really what we're seeing illustrated in the marching, in the rioting. It's misdirected pain. It's not right. But that's what it is. And that's what hurts when we just -- when people get reprimanded for

expressing their pain. These are people that feel hopeless and helpless. But, you know, I want to echo what Michael said. I think in New York, you will see a different kind of thing. We have to gather. It's like what humans have to do when they're in that kind of pain. When you lose someone in your family, you want your family around you.

We, the community needs to come together. We need to do something, because it's a mix of pain and anger and frustration and confusion. I think the system needs to be indicted, because it's confusing to us, right? It's illegal, but it's not against the law. It's not a procedure that they should do, but...

BALDWIN: The chokehold.

DAVIS: The chokehold, right. So we're getting all this information that still doesn't equal why that man died. He tapped out like it was the UFC. He said, I can't breathe. I can't breathe. You saw his hand like go stiff. And so these police officers also can't tell that someone is asthmatic.

There is also training that you saw that was flawed.

(CROSSTALK)

SKOLNIK: If I could say one just quick thing. I also want to show support.

I just got a text message from one of the lead supporters and organizers in Ferguson who is actually jumping on a plane right now to join us in New York. They said we cannot march alone. They want to join us in New York.

So, I also want to give love to those in Ferguson who are marching for 100-plus days who are now coming to New York to join us in New York.

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: On campuses and communities all over the world.

(CROSSTALK)

KEVIN JACKSON, The BLACK SPHERE: What I want to say is that, it is a tragedy that this man died going into custody by the police.

And I would venture to tell you the police are pretty upset about his death as well. But it can't be overlooked that if you just obey and do what the cops ask you to do, you're probably going to survive most encounters.

And here we are. I can already guarantee you there are people, race- baiters, that are gearing up for this and they're not looking at this in just the myopics of what happened to this particular man. It's going to grow up bigger than life, not because they care about his death necessarily, but because supposedly there's an agenda. There's not a cop in New York that participated in that that is happy

that this man died. People are going to overlook that. They're also going overlook that they were doing their jobs enforcing the law. As one of the prosecutors said, they can't pick and choose which laws they enforce. It's a tragedy.

But it isn't a tragedy that needs to blow up to be something like the cops are anti-American, anti-citizen and we need to start rewriting a whole bunch of rules. Should procedures be looked at? Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Michael, I see you shaking your head.

SKOLNIK: None of us are anti-cop. None of us are saying that cops are bad and they all should be indicted. We're looking at this particular case.

We want an arrest for this gentleman, not an arrest for all NYPD and all the personnel, for this gentleman. We wanted an arrest of Darren Wilson, not the entire Ferguson Police Department.

JACKSON: He wasn't the only one involved in this.

(CROSSTALK)

SKOLNIK: Kevin, let me ask you a question. Were cigarettes found on Eric Garner? Do you know if cigarettes were actually found? He was allegedly thought to be selling cigarettes. Were they found?

JACKSON: Look, I'm not going to get into the technicalities of the case. Somebody called. The cops showed up.

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: They weren't targeting him. They didn't have some big FBI sting after him.

SKOLNIK: They arrested him multiple times before. Of course they were targeting him.

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: Apparently, he's done it then multiple times before if he's been arrested 31 times.

DAVIS: You know what is interesting? Also ,they said that they history.

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: They also know the history of that police officer that was questionable.

But part of what also people are responding to, there was a video that went viral where you saw a very large white man have an encounter with police in a fast food restaurant.

JACKSON: Oh, here we go.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Let her finish. Let her finish.

DAVIS: He punched the police. He punched them. They Tased him. He punched them again.

They were having a real fistfight. It wasn't an alleged lunge. They were actually fighting. And they Tased him to the ground. And they de-escalated the violence. So what we're saying is that this is what we would like to see. We would like to see things be de-escalated by the police, not the violence...

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: I want to make a point to what Michael said; 31 times, this man had been arrested, 31 times. He had been confronted by the police. And this is the time where something happened.

So he's had multiple encounters with the cops doing probably the same type of thing and nothing happened. This is not something to escalate beyond what it is. It's a tragedy. It should be looked at. I'm not saying people shouldn't necessarily want to protest and find out more, but don't make it more than what it is and race-bait and make it appear as though cops have a vendetta against black people, because Michaela is saying is, if he were white, this wouldn't happen.

BALDWIN: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let me jump in. I appreciate all of your perspectives. We do have to take a quick break.

When we come back, I did talk to Charles Barkley yesterday and I happened to ask him about Eric Garner, having no idea that this would actually break on this show and the decision would come down from this grand jury -- what Charles Barkley told me about Eric Garner and this police officer next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: And we're back with our breaking news here on CNN.

The grand jury in Staten Island here in New York has decided not to indict the police officer who placed Eric Garner back in July on Bay Street in that chokehold. Eric Garner ultimately died. He was accused. It was thought that he was selling loosies, loose cigarettes, which is illegal.

And so this all happened in July. There have been members of this grand jury, 23 people having to decide whether this police should be indicted and we have since learned within the past hour that he will not.

Again, the context of all of this is incredibly significant because of what happened a little over a week ago in Ferguson, Missouri, the nonindictment there handed down with regard to that police officer, officer Darren Wilson and then this. We have seen the protests. We have heard the voices. We have seen the emotions.

They have been incredibly raw. The big question is, what happens in the wake of this decision in New York?

Let me bring in Sunny Hostin and Tara Setmayer, both of whom are joining me here on set, just to sort of go over this.

If you can just with your legal hat on, explain the process, this grand jury process, and how these people came together and what was the standard? What did they have to decide?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I don't even know if I can put my legal hat on, because quite frankly I'm just so stunned by this, because the standard, Brooke, is very low. In front of the grand jury, it's probable cause.

You know what that means? That basically means a crime probably occurred, a crime probably occurred. We're not talking about innocence or guilt. We're not talking about beyond a reasonable doubt. We're talking about the lowest legal standard we have in the legal community.

Having seen this video several times, when I put my prosecutor hat on, that clearly to me looks like an excessive force case. It looks like a death, like a death by excessive force. I think what's fascinating, quite frankly, is that I have been advocating for body cameras on police officers, as you know, Brooke, from the very beginning for years now. I thought that could possibly solve the problem with police brutality.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: And you have the video. It's so very clear to me that you are watching someone who is, yes, perhaps resisting arrest, but you're watching a police officer use an illegal chokehold.

The police department guidelines mandate that they are not allowed to use that chokehold. If you use it, and a death results, I don't understand how the grand jury could have reached any other conclusion but to put this police officer on trial.

And I'm born and raised in New York. I think for me I almost feel like I'm insulated in New York because we're just so progressive because, you know, racism doesn't happen here is sometimes what I think. Is it open season on my son now? Because that's what it looks like to me following the Ferguson decision, following this grand jury no indictment.

I don't even know what to say at this point. How do we fix what is clearly a problem?

BALDWIN: Tara?

TARA SETMAYER, THEBLAZE.COM: Well, my understanding -- and this is a tragic case. And when I saw the video at first, I thought to myself, well, this

doesn't look very good for the police officers. However, we were not in the grand jury room. We don't know what the testimony was. And my understanding is that even though the chokehold is not permitted by New York -- NYPD policy, it's not illegal.

I think that's the difference here. We have to understand. I know emotions are high, particularly after Ferguson, but we need to be measured in how we look at these things. The law is the law for a reason.

HOSTIN: Maybe it's time, though, Tara, not to be so measured. Maybe it's time to call it what it is. Maybe it's time to look at a video and where you clearly see a man dying...

(CROSSTALK)

SETMAYER: But maybe it's not so clear. We're not there.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: We had a video.

SETMAYER: We were not there. He was resisting arrest. He was significantly larger than the other officers. They were familiar with him.

And so when you are making an arrest, it's not exactly an easy thing when you have someone resisting you. Am I saying that the police officers did everything correctly? Not necessarily.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: ... significant physical resistance?

SETMAYER: Doesn't matter whether it's significant or not. He resisted.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: ... force under the law.

SETMAYER: That's true. And that's why...

(CROSSTALK)

SETMAYER: He said don't touch me. Yes, but he was getting arrested.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: Did he charge? Did he charge at the police officers?

SETMAYER: Doesn't matter.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: It does matter. It does matter.

SETMAYER: And the police officers need to make an arrest. So, when you don't resist arrest, then you don't have to worry about that.

HOSTIN: Did it require a chokehold? Did it require six police officers to throw him onto the ground?

(CROSSTALK)

SETMAYER: We weren't there.

HOSTIN: I don't need to have been there. I see the video.

(CROSSTALK)

SETMAYER: Are you claiming that everyone on that grand jury was a racist and that they say that there's an open season on black people?

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: I'm claiming there's something clearly wrong with the process.

SETMAYER: Hyperbolic response.

HOSTIN: There's something clearly wrong with the process.

SETMAYER: I think -- well, we can have a legitimate conversation about the process.

But I think that we need to be responsible, though, and respect the law and process to a certain degree, and not foment the kind of hyperbolic response that we saw in Ferguson, because we need to be -- we need to be careful about that.

HOSTIN: I respect the law more than most, because...

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: ... law enforcement officer.

BALDWIN: OK. I feel the emotions. I feel the emotions. I feel the emotions.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: The bottom line is, when you look at that video, there is no other conclusion when I look at that video. And when most people look at the video that excessive force was used using a choke hold that was not permitted by the New York police department.

But the level of criminality was not reached in the grand jury. There were 23 people there.