Return to Transcripts main page
NEW DAY
No Indictment in NYPD Chokehold Death; Protests in Wake of Grand Jury Decision; Interview with Garner Family Attorney
Aired December 4, 2014 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR, "EARLY START": Protests erupting in New York and across the country. The grand jury decides not to indict a white police officer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: The police have shut off the Henry Hudson.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This was an arrest for an extremely minor crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He shouldn't have been killed in that way.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: We see a man dying on video and there's no indictment. How frustrated do people feel?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you imagine if we didn't have the video what their story would be?
PRESIDENT OBAMA: This is an issue that we've been dealing with for too long, and it's time for us to make more progress that we've made.
ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: All lives must be valued, all lives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want you to rally, but rally in peace.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm determined to get justice for my husband.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CUOMO: Good morning, welcome to NEW DAY. It's Thursday, December 4th, just about 8:00 in the east. Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota here. The violence was largely absent but the anger has returned in full force after a white New York City cop was cleared in the chokehold death of an unarmed black man. The grand jury deciding not to indict Officer Daniel Pantaleo who was caught on tape choking Eric Garner to death. And look, show the division. Here are the papers this is morning. One city, two tabloids, two different takes on this. One says "It was not a crime." the other says --
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And the other says "We can't breathe," which has become the rallying cry for the protesters, just like "hands up, don't shoot" was in Ferguson. Now they say "We can't breathe" because they are representing Eric Garner's voice. So two completely different perspectives, and it's reflected on social media this morning. People who were tweeting us on Facebook say when the police approach you, you must comply. That's half of the comments.
CUOMO: This is New York City. One of the things that made it different were the protesters we're hearing from people on the street offering that perspective.
CAMEROTA: Well, with 83 arrests and demonstrations last night around the country, an outraged attorney general Eric Holder promises a thorough and independent probe into Eric Garner's death. Meanwhile, Garner's family is slamming the decision, vowing that the fight in the case has just begun. So before we get to our coverage, we're also monitoring, we should let you know, NASA's test polite of the Orion spacecraft. The launch has been delayed several times this morning already because of high winds. We'll bring it to you live when that does happen.
But back to our top story. We'll talk with Garner's family attorney in just a moment. Our coverage begins with Jason Carroll. He is live in Times Square. Jason?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, as you know, they marched, they chanted, some of the protesters coming out here last night, saying the same thing that Eric Garner's wife said, that they would fight until the end for justice.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CROWD: I can't breathe! I can't breathe!
CARROLL: Protesters pouring into the streets of New York last night after a grand jury did not indict New York City Police Officer Daniel Pantaleo in the chokehold death of 43-year-old Eric Garner.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't breathe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a very painful day for so many New Yorkers.
CARROLL: Arrests made throughout the night as outrage pulsed throughout the city streets for more than nine hours.
CROWD: Black lives matter!
CARROLL: Most chanting Garner's last words --
CROWD: I can't breathe! I can't breathe!
CARROLL: Before dying on this Staten Island street.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't breathe. I can't breathe.
CROWD: I can't breathe!
CARROLL: Police, some in riot gear blocking intersections, as protesters began shutting down the city's most iconic landmarks, stopping the flow of traffic into and out of the island of Manhattan for hours, some lying down right in the middle of the road, the same inside Grand Central Station --
CROWD: I can't breathe! I can't breathe!
CARROLL: Where other protesters staged a massive "die-in" as evening rush hour hit its peak. Police heavily guarding the Rockefeller tree lighting ceremony --
CROWD: Three, two, one!
(APPLAUSE)
CARROLL: -- as protesters tried to disrupt the show. The city's public outcry reaching a fever pitch nationwide. From Los Angeles --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am Eric Garner.
CROWD: I am Eric Garner.
CARROLL: -- to Philadelphia.
CROWD: Hands up. Don't shoot.
CARROLL: Where protesters took to city hall during their tree lighting ceremony, holding up signs reading "Black lives matter." The demonstrations across the country disruptive but peaceful, fulfilling Garner's family wish.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want to you rally, but rally in peace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No violence.
CARROLL: Officer Pantaleo said in a statement "It is never my intention to harm anyone and I feel very bad about the death of Mr. Garner." But Garner's wife says it's too late.
ESAW GARNER, WIFE OF ERIC GARNER: Hell no. The time for remorse would have been when my husband was yelling to breathe. That would have been the time for him to show some type of remorse or some type of care for another human being's life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL: New York City's mayor also releasing a statement this morning saying this is not the end of the Eric Garner story, only the end of a chapter. Alisyn?
CAMEROTA: All right, Jason Carroll, thank you.
President Obama says the incident and grand jury decision demonstrates the disconnect between minorities and law enforcement. Let's get right to senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta for more on the reaction from the White House. Good morning, Jim.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn. In a rapid response to the Eric Garner case, President Obama once again promised changes to the criminal justice system. But after Ferguson and now New York City the White House knows all too well patience is wearing thin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA: Sensing the crisis that is growing President Obama waited just a few hours to weigh in, after the decision was announced not to indict a New York City police officer in the chokehold death of Eric Garner.
BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When anybody in this country is not being treated equally under the law, that's a problem.
ACOSTA: With emotions already raw across the country after the unrest in Ferguson, the president tried to strike a balance, recognizing the important work of law enforcement while insisting the justice system must change.
OBAMA: I'm not interested in talk. I'm interested in action, and I am absolutely committed as president of the United States to making sure that we have a country in which everybody believes in the core principle that we are equal under the law.
ACOSTA: Attorney General Eric Holder, who will be visiting five more U.S. cities to meet with civil rights leaders on the issue said the Justice Department is investigating the Garner case.
ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: All lives must be valued. All lives.
ACOSTA: Adding more pressure on the administration, the U.S. attorney overseeing the chokehold investigation also happens to be the woman tapped to replace Holder, Loretta Lynch.
HOLDER: Our prosecutors will conduct an independent, thorough, fair, and expeditious investigation.
ACOSTA: On Capitol Hill, members of the Congressional Black Caucus are insisting the president cannot tackle the problem alone.
REP. CHARLES RANGEL, (D) NEW YORK: I do hope that the Department of Justice gives Americans an opportunity to take this cancer and cut it out once and for all.
ACOSTA: On the streets of the nation's capital, there was a different kind of gridlock as protesters snarled traffic to send a message.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry people here are inconvenienced, but it's inconvenient to get shot in the street. It's inconvenient to get choked on videotape. It's inconvenient to have no justice.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA: And President Obama says he wants to start rebuilding trust in law enforcement in minority communities quickly. That's why he's calling on his new 21st century policing task force which was just launched on Monday to issue its recommendations within 90 days. Chris?
CUOMO: All right, Jim, thank you very much.
Eric Garner's widow just told NBC's "Today" show how she felt the officer who choked her husband to death was not indicted. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I started crying, because it's not fair. It's not fair. What do they not see? How could they possibly not indict, you know? I felt hopeless. I felt like there was not another corner to turn, like there was nothing left for me to fight for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Let's bring in Jonathan Moore. He's an attorney for the Garner family. Counselor, thank you for joining us this morning. And we get a little glimpse of the widow a couple different times here in the last couple of days, but how is the family doing? Because the only reality that's un-debatable is the husband and father is gone.
JONATHAN MOORE, ATTORNEY, GARNER FAMILY: Right. No, they're struggling. It's been a difficult four months since he was killed and living with the uncertainty. And then I think we expected that there would be some legal action going forward by the grand jury that would be positive.
CUOMO: It was a surprise?
MOORE: It was a surprise, I think. I suppose we shouldn't be shocked about these things after the history of this, but it was still a surprise. I mean, I think the video is pretty strong in terms of showing really violent police conduct, as I think the "New York Times" in the editorial section referred to it today as "vicious policing."
CUOMO: Do you believe, and does the family believe, that Officer Pantaleo was trying to kill Eric Garner?
MOORE: Oh, I don't know. I don't think that's the issue and that really isn't the issue whether where he really had evil in his heart. He clearly was violating his own departmental regulations. He clearly was using excessive force.
You have to understand, this whole thing was about a suspected essentially administrative code violation of selling untaxed cigarettes, not even seeing it, just suspecting it. And that's normally just a summons-able offense. You give somebody a ticket and they show up in court. I don't understand why they wanted to be so aggressive. It's that aggressive policing which is -- he clearly was involved in that is what led to the actions here.
CUOMO: Is a possible explanation for that, though, whatever the underlying offense was, no matter how minor, trivial, and unusually policed, once they say we're going to arrest you, and Mr. Garner says, no, essentially, I'm not going to let you arrest me, now you have a very different dynamic with police no matter what the underlying offense is? Isn't that true?
MOORE: It's true and it's not true. I don't think there was ever a clear direction in that video that we're going to arrest you or that you're under arrest. In fact if you watch it closely what you see is Mr. Garner being frustrated because the pattern of him being --
CUOMO: He has been arrested what, 31 times?
MOORE: Some large amount of time for a guy just trying to make a living. And you can criticize the way he was making a living, that's fine. But he was a family man, married for 27 years, raised kids, had grandkids. This was how he made a living.
CUOMO: The pushback is that don't fail to comply with police instructions and you don't get excessive force used on you. Is that a fair analysis?
MOORE: No, that's not a fair analysis. The pushback is, if you raise an objection to what you believe to be unnecessary, unlawful police conduct, you get a very aggressive response.
CUOMO: Right.
MOORE: He's saying this is not right. In fact his hands are up and he's saying really you got to not do this. And then that's when Pantaleo --
CUOMO: Pantaleo grabs him from behind.
MOORE: -- grabs him from behind and takes him down with a chokehold.
CUOMO: The officer testified and he said he was trying to protect him. He thought he was going to bang into the window. He wanted to make sure he didn't the other officers and that he wasn't hurt himself. Do you buy that?
MOORE: No, I don't. I don't see in that video an officer being concerned about the safety of Eric Garner. What I see is a very aggressive takedown of somebody unnecessarily and the maximum use of force. You see it in the way he was pressing his head against the ground. That was just unnecessary. And the failure to respond to the fact that he's saying I" can't breathe, I can't breathe." He's obviously a large man. He's obviously in no situation where he's trying to physically resist what's going on. He's not being aggressive, he's not swinging out. There's just no reason for that level of force.
CUOMO: What happens if the officer doesn't lose his job? The side bar is the NYPD has its own prohibitions. It is not illegal to choke and the certainly grand jury didn't find it illegal here, but it is against police procedure. They don't allow chokes. Do you think he was choking, and do you think that's grounds for his dismissal?
MOORE: I think it's clearly a chokehold and there will be administrative proceedings brought against the officer.
CUOMO: Ongoing now.
MOORE: That will begin today, and there will probably if they can't reach a resolution, there will be an administrative trial where they'll try to determine whether he violated the regulations. Then it's up to Commissioner Bradley as to what --
CUOMO: What does the family want?
MOORE: I think the family wants justice. I don't think they want to see Officer Pantaleo continue as a police officer in New York City given his history here.
CUOMO: And the issue of why the grand jury decided what it did, the lack of transparency in the process, a prosecutor investigating their own police officers. Does the family want that to change?
MOORE: Well, we've called this case in the past and this case as well, that there really should be an independent special prosecutor who handles these kinds of issues.
CUOMO: And what was the reaction you got? Why was that denied?
MOORE: Well, I don't know that it's actually at this, given the current state of New York law, that it's permitted, but it's certainly been something people pushed for over and over in these cases, and there's a good reason why, is that the prosecutor is so close and so connected and so intertwined with the police to make their cases that when they have to investigate their own it becomes difficult.
CUOMO: As in the Ferguson situation, the idea that the prosecutor is going to use the grand jury as an impartial presenter of evidence, that's not how that tool is usually used. The prosecutor usually has a heavy hand in shaping it, which is why defense attorneys like yourself don't want your clients in front of a grand jury. It seems to be different with cops. Do you think that that is the truth?
MOORE: Well, I think the truth is out there. I think it's clearly true. In Ferguson, and apparently here as well, they used, really used the grand jury process to get to the ultimate question of guilt rather than whether there was reasonable cause or probable cause to believe that a crime had been committed, any crime from the level of simple assault to reckless endangerment to -- up to the level of murder. And if the players were reversed I think you'd have an indictment within two days.
CUOMO: If Eric Garner was defendant against Officer Pantaleo and what he did to him?
MOORE: Right, no question. There's no question.
CUOMO: You think a prosecutor would have just charged him.
MOORE: No, there would have been a grand jury if had been a serious crime, but that's a good point. It could have gone by way of information. It could have gone by way of information. They didn't have to go through the grand jury process, but they did. Now, I can understand that, but still, if you look at -- one of the trouble things that I learned yesterday was that all the officers other than Pantaleo were given immunity for their testimony. That really concerned me because this was not just the case looking at the conduct of one police officer. If you watch the video, there are several officers engaged with Mr. Garner on top of him, giving him the difficulty breathing, and -
CUOMO: The homicide isn't just the choke. It's about chest compression.
MOORE: In fact, the office of the medical examiner said the cause of death was a combination of neck compression and chest compression.
CUOMO: That's another aspect we have to look at in temples of whether or not this was the fair result.
Jonathan Moore, thank you very much for bringing us the interview, extend our sympathies to the family.
MOORE: I will.
CUOMO: We look forward to continuing the conversation. We know the story doesn't end today.
MOORE: No, it doesn't.
CUOMO: All right. A lot of other news -- Michaela.
MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Chris, thanks so much.
Yes, we want to give you an update breaking news in the last hour, a woman has now been arrested in the brutal stabbing of that American teacher in Abu Dhabi. The suspect is a 30-year-old woman from the United Arab Emirates who also allegedly placed a bomb in front of a Muslim-American doctor's home, that bomb however was defused in time.
Meanwhile, the victim of the stabbing has been identified as American Ibolya Ryan. She was killed in the bathroom of a mall. Officials in the UAE had warned American teachers about threats to their safety.
Seventeen states now filing a federal lawsuit challenging the president's executive action on immigration. The suit claims the president is violating the Constitution. In the meantime, the House is preparing a vote on a Republican-backed bill to undo the president's action, although it's likely to go in where in the Senate. The bill is aimed at quieting House conservatives unhappy that the GOP leaders backed away from a spending showdown over the issue.
Three more women have come forward now with claims they were sexually abused by Bill Cosby. The women were joined by attorney Gloria Allred who said Cosby should consider waiving the statute of limitations or set up a $100 million fund for the alleged victims.
In the meantime, Cosby's two shows scheduled this weekend in Tarrytown, New York, have been postponed in the wake of the nearly two dozen allegations of sex abuse. They are celebrating in Philadelphia, the 76ers now have only the
second worst start in NBA history. They beat the Timberwolves of Minnesota last night for their first win in 18 games, a loss would have tied the Nets 0-18 start a few years ago when they played here in New Jersey, or nearby in New Jersey. The bad news for the Sixers, they remain a scant 13 1/2 games out of first place. Sort of like a moderated celebration.
CUOMO: Take success where you find it.
PEREIRA: Yes.
CUOMO: Off the schneid.
CAMEROTA: All right. We have so much more of this debate. An officer caught on tape putting a chokehold on a man which led to his death, but he was cleared by the grand jury. Why no indictment for Eric Garner's death? We will have a debate with our experts.
CUOMO: Plus, gas prices are plunging and that's good. How low will they go? We'll break it down, but there's concern about what's driving prices down. It could wind up coming back to haunt us. We'll tell you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMEROTA: Protesters took to the streets of New York and other cities last night after the grand jury decided not to indict the police officer in the choking death of Eric Garner.
So, what evidence did the grand jury hear that the protesters have not heard?
Joining us is Mo Ivory. She's attorney and radio personality. And Daniel Bongino, he's former NYPD police officer and former Secret Service agent. Also, Dan's brother currently serves in the Secret Service.
It's great to have both of you with us this morning.
Dan, I want to start with you. You were on the NYPD. What do you think of the Staten Island grand jury coming back with no indictment?
DAN BONGINO, FORMER NYPD POLICE OFFICER: I think the lack of indictment surprised everyone -- the families and some of the police officers in New York I spoke to as well. I think they expected an indictment to come down in the case, given the video evidence and accounts. But we don't know what happened inside the grand jury proceeding. The officer's testimony may have been persuasive. So, we just don't know what happened.
CAMEROTA: We know a little bit of what happened. Now, you're right, Dan, that it hasn't been released. There has not been the transparency that we saw in Ferguson, no transcript of the officer's testimony has been released. However, his attorney did speak to "The New York Times", so we can glean a little bit of what was said. Here is what Officer Pantaleo told the grand jury, "Officer Pantaleo
told jurors he continue to hold onto Mr. Garner as he struggled to regain his balance. He says he wanted to make sure that Mr. Garner was not injured by other officers rushing in, as well as to prevent Mr. Garner from possibly biting one of them."
Mo, the grand jurors believed that defense.
MO IVORY, ATTORNEY & RADIO PERSONALITY: Well, at least 12 of them did, you know, and so there were 23 grand jurors, so I really would be so curious to know what those conversations were about because that explanation to me sounds ludicrous.
All of a sudden now, you're worried about somebody biting, a man that five people had to jump on top of to bring to the ground, now all of a sudden, he's saying his mind switched and his concern was to make sure Mr. Garner wasn't hurt and to make sure that he didn't all of a sudden start biting other police officers? It doesn't even sound logical.
CAMEROTA: Dan, one of the other things that Officer Pantaleo apparently told the grand jury according to the jury part of the reason why he kept his arm around Mr. Garner's neck was he was up against a plate glass storefront window behind him, and he was afraid they'd come crashing through the window, so he kept him to try to take him down to the ground.
Again, Dan, you were an NYPD officer. Is that chokehold legit in were you trained to do that in a situation like the one they confronted Eric Garner?
BONGINO: Well, the NYPD does not train any type of chokehold. It's important your audience understand there are three different kinds of I guess what we would call chokeholds. You have, you know, a basic like you called headlock, which is just a restraint, school kids do it all the time. Then you have a tracheal choke which is absolutely banned, it's considered deadly force, where the bone of the arm is placed up against a wind pipe which can kill you very quickly. And third, importantly, you have a carotid choke, carotid arteries, which restraints blood flow to the head and causes temporary unconsciousness.
CAMEROTA: And which one is this one? When you watch that video, which is this that we're seeing?
BONGINO: Well, that's why I brought it up. Initially, it looks like what he's trying to do, and I can't get in the officer's head here, is not -- it looks like he's trying to take him down, and it looks like on the ground, if you watch the video, it turns into what looks to be some kind of carotid choke, maybe he did it out of panic, I don't know. I wasn't in his head.
But it doesn't look initially like it was anything other than a takedown attempt.
CAMEROTA: Go ahead, Mo. IVORY: Alisyn, the problem is that we're talking about judgment here,
right? If you look at that video, you can easily realize that this officer jumped on Mr. Garner's back, probably in his mindset, enough is enough, let's take this guy in. I'm jumping on his back.
It's so obvious at that moment he went into sort of a combat mode and then everybody jumped in. OK, so let's suppose that in fact he was afraid or he was trying to -- I do not think that Mr. Garner was resisting arrest, but let's act as if the officers thought that.
At the moment there were four or five people on top of him and he was saying he couldn't breathe, he's a large man, now down on the ground. Everybody couldn't have eased up a little bit, given him some space to breathe, got up off of him? What was he going to be able to do laying flat on the ground to five or six or seven officers on the scene?
CAMEROTA: And, Mo --
IVORY: It's just so excessive.
CAMEROTA: Mo, you say you don't believe he was resisting arrest, yet the video says he was noncompliant. He was saying, no, guys, come on, guys, no.
(CROSSTALK)
IVORY: Yes, Alisyn, there is a difference between conversation and frustration versus not resisting arrest. What Eric Garner was saying to that officer was, come on, guys, I'm tired of this. You come here, you harass me every day.
He had his hands up. There was nothing that he -- he wasn't fighting the officers, he wasn't flailing, he wasn't doing any of that.
And the narrative that he was resisting arrest has continued to be built on, well, if he had just gone with the officers -- he was trying to talk to the officer and say look, man, why are you doing this to me? I'm frustrated by you continuing to harass me, and he had his hands up. So I'm tired of that narrative that, well, this would have never happened to him if he had just complied with the officer. It would have never happened to him if that officer didn't jump on his back and smoosh his head into the ground to the point where he was asphyxiated.
CAMEROTA: Mo, we hear your frustration. We have to leave it there.
Dan, thanks so much for all of your expertise and helping us walk through that video.
It's great to talk to both of you.
IVORY: Thank you.
CAMEROTA: Thanks so much.
All right, another top story: gas now under $2 a gallon. It sounds crazy, but it's true. Will the prices plunge even lower? Will it last? And what's behind it? We'll discuss all that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
