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CNN TONIGHT

Terror Down Under; Could Lone Wolf Strike the U.S.?; Bill and Camille Cosby Speaking Out; Sony Pictures Hack the Talk of Hollywood; Leaked E-Mails Joke About Obama's Taste in Movies

Aired December 15, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Tonight, terror down under. We're going to go live to Australia for the very latest on the deadly attack on a cafe right in the middle of Sydney's financial district.

Was it lone wolf terror and could it happen here?

Plus, Bill Cosby. The bombshell the embattled comic's wife finally speaks out. But what she says may shock you. After her husband lectures black reporters about remaining neutral, Camille Cosby compares his scandal to accusations of gang rape at the University of Virginia.

And Oprah Winfrey. What she has to say about race and about the secrets revealed by the massive hack attack of one of the world's largest movie studios.

We've got a whole lot to get to tonight. But I want to begin with our breaking news. You're looking live now at a memorial service at St. Mary's Cathedral. It's in Sydney, Australia. And it's for those killed in the siege. You see members of -- the family members and the clergy and also members of the police department at that memorial service this evening.

That's live pictures now from Sydney.

Joining me now from Australia as well is Anna Coren along with Vicky Jardim. She's a reporter for Channel 9 News in Sydney.

Anna, to you first. We now have a picture and more information about the victims from this horrifying standoff. I want you to tell us what we know about the two people who lost their lives.

ANNA COREN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, tragic details emerging about those two victims. The first being Katrina Dawson, a 38-year-old mother of three. She was a lawyer here in Sydney, and she was one of the hostages killed during that siege. The other hostage was 34-year-old Tori Johnson. He was the manager of that Lindt Chocolate Cafe. There are reports that he tried to tackle the gunman and overcome him.

Police say they heard gunshots just after 2:00 this morning. And that is when they decided to storm that cafe. But that is what we are learning, Don, about those two victims.

LEMON: Anna, Tori's family, Tori Johnson's family just released a statement, and in it they thank people from around the world for their prayers for the family. I want to read part of it for you. It says, "We are so proud of our beautiful boy, Tori, gone from this earth but forever in our memories, as the most amazing life partner, son and brother we could ever wish for. Let us all pray for peace on earth."

So, Anna, here's a question. You know, also, before I get to the question, I also want to read, this is from the Lindt manager. The Lindt manager said, "Tori had been with us at length for just over two years, and he was a great ambassador for our company and the store." He managed, which he cared for passionately. He was a really important part of our management team in Australia, and the loss of course he says is absolutely -- they say is absolutely tragic.

How are Australians reacting today as more information is revealed about this hostage standoff?

COREN: Yes, look, a really sad and somber day here in Sydney. Flags are flying at half mast. You see many people in this vicinity carrying flowers to lay a tribute at a memorial for the two victims who were killed during this siege. People trying to make sense that this could actually happen here in Sydney. Just a block from where we are standing.

But there's also anger, Don. Anger that the gunman, this lone wolf, his name is Man Haron Monis, that he was allowed out on the streets here in Sydney. Now the reason I say this is because he was on bail for two separate and very serious charges. One of those being 40 counts of sexual assault by seven alleged victims. And the other one being an accessory to murder of his ex-wife, who was found with multiple stab wounds and was burnt, set on fire in her apartment here in Sydney last year.

This is a man, mind you, who also pled guilty to writing these horrific letters to the families of Australian soldiers who were killed in Afghanistan. I mean, we're talking about a really sick individual, someone who is known to police for at least the last seven years, and also somebody, I should also note, that was given political asylum here in Australia after he fled Iran in 1995. So many people are asking, you know, authorities asking the justice system, why was this man out on the streets?

Why was he free on bail when he was clearly a threat to the community and was able to walk into this cafe where people were just going about their morning, getting a cup of coffee, and was able to take 17 people hostage, which resulted in the death of two of those people -- Don.

LEMON: All right, Anna, stand by. I want to go to Vicky Jardim.

Vicky, what can you tell us about the condition of the patients this evening?

VICKY JARDIM, REPORTER, CHANNEL 9 NEWS SYDNEY: Well, I'm currently standing outside the Royal North Shore Hospital here in Sydney's North where two of the hostages are being treated. A 43-year-old woman is in serious but stable condition after receiving a gunshot wound to her leg. A second woman in her 30s is in a stable condition. It's understood she is pregnant and is being looked over by doctors here.

Elsewhere, two other hostages have been treated for gunshot wounds and a second woman is also being checked over by doctors. She is also pregnant. Now earlier today a police officer caught up in the crossfire, he was released from hospital. He had a graze to his cheek after receiving a gunshot -- cut by a gunshot pellet and also had a cut to his hand.

So obviously, a very serious situation here in Sydney. Seventeen people were held hostage, and of course our thoughts and prayers for the family members of those involved here.

LEMON: Anna, I want to ask you about this hashtag that has been going around and it's called "I'll ride with you." And here's what some of the people there are tweeting. One says, "Without a doubt I'll ride with you. But not just tomorrow." "Any day," someone else says, "if you wear religious attire and need to get from Adelaide's to West Suburbs to the city on Tuesday, but don't want to travel alone, I'll ride with you."

Another one says, "Because together the journey -- I'll ride with you because together the journey is more than fun. That friend is our victory, one haters will never know."

Tell us about this hashtag.

COREN: Yes. Quite amazing. It took on a life of its own yesterday as the siege was still unfolding. Basically this is about Australians showing their support for the Muslim community. There is real concern obviously that there could be some sort of backlash, religious backlash, political backlash, because this gunman, this lone wolf, this 50-year-old man from Iran decided to come out publicly with his support for ISIS.

So there is obviously fears that there could be that backlash. You have to also remember that there are at least 100 Australian citizens who have aligned themselves with ISIS, who've traveled to Iraq and Syria to help form this caliphate, and as a result there have now been terror raids across the -- you know, up and down the east coast of Australia, where there have been many arrests.

Australia also, you know, named one of the targets when ISIS came out back in September, calling on sympathizers to take on these -- take these lone wolf attacks in countries that have, you know, become allies with the United States in the fight against ISIS. Australia was named. So there were real concerns that that is what could have unfolded here, that that was what was unfolding here.

So this hashtag, really, Australians showing their support for the Muslim community here in this country and making sure that there isn't that divide and we don't see that ugliness that can come about in times of crisis.

LEMON: Vicky, as you're there covering the victims in the hospital, have they -- I'm sure they're investigating this, but do officials know how some of the victims were killed? Could it possibly have been friendly fire?

JARDIM: Look, as you just said, there is a current police investigation under way. These hostages were only released, the siege only ended some 11 hours ago, so it's still very early stages. As Anna did mention before, it's thought that one of the victims, the cafe manager, was trying to wrestle the gun from the gunman when possibly a gun -- a shot was fired. But we still don't know this for certain. A coronial inquest is also under way and a thorough police investigation is under way.

Now the streets around the Lindt Cafe right in the middle of Sydney's CBD is still a crime scene. It is an exclusion zone. People in those surrounding streets are basically being told today to stay at home, to try and work from home because it is a crime scene and a lot of investigating needs to go on here.

LEMON: All right, Vicky Jardim and also Anna Coren reporting from Australia. Thank you very much for that.

When we come right back here on CNN, we're going to ask a former jihadist how great is the threat from the lone wolf.

And could an attack like this one happen here in the U.S.?

Plus Bill Cosby's wife finally goes public, defending the embattled comic. We're going to talk to the attorney representing one of Cosby's accusers.

And Oprah Winfrey. Wait until you hear what she has to say about Hollywood, race, and the secret revealed by the massive hack at Sony.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Terror group ISIS has called on its supporters to carry out attacks anywhere they can. And that has U.S. officials worried about so-called lone wolves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEH JOHNSON, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: The new phenomenon that I see that I'm very concerned about is somebody who's never met another member of that terrorist organization, never trained at one of the camps, who is simply inspired by the social media, the literature, the propaganda, the message to commit an act of violence in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Joining me now to discuss this, Mubin Shaikh, a former jihadist and author of "Undercover Jihadi." Richard Schoeberl is a counterterrorism expert. And Daveed Gartenstein-Ross is a senior fellow with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

Welcome, gentlemen.

Daveed, I'm going to start with you. The Australian prime minister Tony Abbott told reporters today that Man Haron Monis was well known to the state and commonwealth authorities, had a long history of violent crime and an infatuation with extreme and mental -- extremism and had mental instability.

How could this have happened?

DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS, SENIOR FELLOW, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: That's a great question. And the question of whether it's an intelligence failure is going to loom large I think in Australian discourse. For one thing, he openly pledged allegiance to the Islamic State on November 17th on his own Web site. In addition to the fact that he had about 50 counts of assault against him and that he was considered an accessory to his ex-wife's murder.

All of this, you know, amounts to at least the notion that maybe authorities should have had him on their radar. Maybe they should have stopped him from getting a gun. Maybe something could have been done prior to this hostage taking and killing being carried out.

LEMON: Still the question, Daveed, is why wasn't it?

GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: That's an excellent question. We don't know this early on. You know, when I look at the facts it seems to me like there was in fact a good likelihood of an intelligence failure. But, you know, until things start to unravel and you get a sense of what authorities were actually doing it's difficult to really know. One thing I'll say is that it's difficult in cases of lone wolf terrorism to stop often because someone has to have committed a crime.

But in this case the question is, you know, were there ways to use immigration laws to get him out of the country? You know, he was already wanted -- he was already, you know, accused of a number of other crimes. Were there other authorities they could have used.

LEMON: Mubin, to you now, you watched this hostage siege overnight and you monitored social media. What was the reaction?

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER JIHADIST: Well, at the start ISIS followers were kind of confused. When the headband was first shown, he wore a headband in Arabic, we are your army, oh Muhammad. This is usually use the by Shia, mostly Hezbollah individuals. Mind you, the theology is universal enough for transferability, for Sunni use. So a lot of the ISIS fans were, like, wait a second, there's something odd with this because it's an Iranian guy.

But once the -- you know, the dust had settled they had seen the impact of it. Some of them did start to come on and say oh, no, no, he converted, he's one of us, and you know, ISIS has struck again and they did continue to play up this message.

LEMON: Richard, is this just the kind of guy that ISIS wants? RICHARD SCHOEBERL, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: It's exactly the type of

person they're looking for. And we're going to start seeing this type of events unfold globally now that ISIS has masterminded the social media network.

LEMON: I ask that because he reportedly was a victim of -- said he was a victim of political vendetta on his Web site and he also compared himself to Julian Assange -- Richard.

SCHOEBERL: Yes. Of course. But, you know, what we're seeing with ISIS is not only the mastering of the social media but all of these individual fighters that are over there, after this conflict has resolved itself, these individuals have to come back to the countries that they came from. You're going to see that happen here in the United States as well as abroad. That's what the biggest fear for the United States intelligence community and law enforcement community is.

These individuals who are sympathizing with the ISIS fighters, the fighters who are currently there, coming back home and then trying to track the lone wolf, which we all know as counterterrorism experts is almost impossible to do.

LEMON: Daveed, let's dig a little deeper about these lone wolves because recently there was a hatchet attack in New York, public, right, opened fire in Canada. Now this attack in Sydney leaving two people dead in a cafe.

How concerned are you about a severe lone wolf attack in New York or in America?

GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: I think we should be concerned about the rise of lone wolf attacks. You named a few. But overall by my count there's been at least six different lone wolf attacks that have been ISIS inspired this year. There's also the Brussels Jewish Museum shooting, another attack in Canada, and arguably the beheading in Oklahoma where the guy was -- you know, had photos of ISIS up on his Facebook page, although there were a few different motivations there.

To put that into perspective, in an average year for the past decade there are 7.3 lone wolf attacks total across all kinds of terrorism. I think that Richard's exactly right, that one of the reasons we're seeing this spike is because of social media. Generally, terrorism is a group thing. And the reason why is because to get someone to carry out an extreme act like terrorism you generally need a group that's reinforcing their ideas and pushing them towards greater extremism.

Social media can actually serve that role because it creates community. Studies that have been done on this psychologically showed that relationships in fact can deepen faster on social media than in real life because you get to the heart of what's important to you, especially if you have a fringe ideology.

LEMON: Mubin, he was an Iranian refugee who followed the Sunni branch of Islam. Does this hostage siege raise the question of militant Islam again? SHAIKH: Well, of course it does. I mean, what ISIS is doing, it's

attracting these kind of deranged individuals. I mean, this was still a terrorist attack, but, you know, by a deranged individual. He's not a psychopath. I mean, psychopathy is very rare when it comes to terrorism. Mental instability is quite common, you know, whatever issues he had. I mean, he was known since 2008. The Shia community, when he was still a Shia, you know, urged the police to investigate him.

They passed on information to the authorities, as we would expect the cooperating group to do. And, you know, I share the concern of others when they say that it could have possibly been an intelligence failure. But again, it's impossible to know when this individual is going to act. Just short of monitoring somebody 24/7, there's really nothing else you can do.

LEMON: Mubin, Richard, Daveed, thank you, all of you, gentlemen.

And from the lone wolf attack in Australian to the violence here at home. Tonight police in Philadelphia suburbs are searching for a man accused of killing six people. The suspect is identified as 35-year- old Bradley William Stone of Pennsburg, Pennsylvania. He's accused of killing his ex-wife and five of his former in-laws. Police describe Stone as armed and dangerous.

And then late tonight they descended on nearby Doylestown, Pennsylvania, after reports of a possible sighting of him. At this point police do not have a motive for the multiple murders.

When we come right back, the Cosbys break their silence finally. Bill Cosby speaks to a reporter, and his wife Camille goes public to support her embattled husband. Hear what both of them have to say. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Bill Cosby's wife has finally gone public tonight. She defends her husband against multiple accusations of past sexual abuse. And that comes just days after Cosby himself spoke to a reporter and that reporter joins me now. He is Stacy Brown. He's a freelance journalist with the "Washington Informer."

And also here with us is Lisa Bloom, a legal analyst with Avvo.com and the founder of the Bloom Firm. She now represents a Cosby accuser, Janice Dickinson.

Welcome to you, Lisa. First to you. Camille Cosby speaking out tonight, vigorously defending her husband against charges of drugging and raping women, calling him a wonderful husband, a father and a friend.

Here's part of that statement. She said -- she said, "A different man has been portrayed in the media over the last two months. It is the portrait of a man I do not know. It is also a portrait painted by individuals and organizations who many in the media have given a pass. There appears to be no vetting of my husband's accusers before stories are published or aired. An accusation is published and immediately goes viral."

You represent Janice Dickinson now, one of Bill Cosby's accusers. What's your response to that?

LISA BLOOM, AVVO.COM, ATTORNEY FOR JANICE DICKINSON: Well, I'm sure to Camille Cosby this is a very different man than the man that she knew. None of the accusers as far as I know has said that Camille knew, was a witness, was present when any accusation was made against Bill Cosby until very, very recently. So from her perspective I'm sure that she's speaking the truth.

The problem, Don, is that of course the media should tell both sides but Bill Cosby has for the most part refused to come forward and tell his side. I'm sure you'd be very happy to interview Mr. Cosby. But the fact is that over the years he's tried to scuttle stories. We've seen him on tape telling reporters to scuttle stories. That's why we have really only had one side in the most recent round.

LEMON: So, Stacy, you do the interview. And before we get -- we're going to let our viewers listen to it. So what happened? Did you just pick up the phone and call?

STACY BROWN, FREELANCE JOURNALIST, "WASHINGTON INFORMER": Yes. I just decided to give it a shot. I'd been talking with his team for a while. And it came to a dead end. So I gave it a shot.

LEMON: Were you surprised he answered?

BROWN: I was shocked he answered.

LEMON: I'm surprised he spoke considering what's happening to anyone on the phone regarding this situation.

BROWN: Well, not only was I surprised he spoke at all, I was surprised that -- the way in which he spoke. He seemed like there was absolutely nothing wrong.

LEMON: OK. Here's a clip from your interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL COSBY, COMEDIAN: I only expect our black media to uphold the standards of excellence in journalism.

BROWN: Right.

COSBY: And when you do that, you go in with a neutral mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So some are saying that he was possibly pulling the race card here, trying to get -- chain black media into supporting him. Did you get that feeling?

BROWN: No, not at all. I've heard that. He was speaking to a black reporter who happens to write for black media. And so I believe that it was a situation where if he was speaking to a white reporter for mainstream media it would have been a similar message but delivered in obviously a different way.

LEMON: OK. You asked him how his wife was holding up under the pressure. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: Love and the strength of womanhood. If you can put it, reverse it, the strength of womanhood and love.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He's really been accused by dozens of women now. How did that -- his response strike you?

BROWN: It was surprising. Especially, again, the tone in which he gave it. He was so passionate about this, and he was so upbeat about it. It was so -- it rolled off his tongue. It was as if nothing is going on, these allegations don't exist.

LEMON: Lisa?

BLOOM: Mm-hmm. You know, what can I say? I think it's time for Bill Cosby to face the music, to submit to a real interview, to answer tough questions. He asks journalists to remain neutral. And of course they should. But the fact is that over the years Bill Cosby got a pass because he was such a beloved and respected figure. These accusations have been out there for many years, and yet people wrote books about him without even mentioning these allegations.

The truth is that journalists have been bending over backwards to protect Bill Cosby, and what we see now is a leveling of the playing field where because so many women have come forward now some people are actually choosing to believe the women.

LEMON: I'm going to read something that his attorney, Mr. Cosby's attorney, John P. Schmidt, said about Stacy Brown's interview. He said, "Mr. Brown identified himself as a freelance reporter for a number of African-American media outlets, which prompted Mr. Cosby's comment regarding the African-American media. Mr. Brown did not indicate that he was interviewing Mr. Cosby for publication, did not say that he was reporting for the 'New York Post,' and did not tell Mr. Cosby that the conversation was being recorded.

"In a discussion of journalistic standards Mr. Brown failed to adhere to the most basic standards of his profession."

What's your response?

BROWN: Well, what I have to say is if a reporter's calling Bill Cosby today it's not to make small talk. It's for an interview. And at the beginning of the conversation I said to him I know you're not giving interviews. However, since he answered the phone, can I ask you some questions? I think it's preposterous. We went through this last year with the

"New York Post" and Bill Cosby. I offered the story to the "Post" as well. It's such an important story.

Keep in mind, too, Don, real quick, I didn't think I had enough for a story. I asked my editors at the "Washington Informer" and the editors at "The New York Post" and they said yes, you have a whole lot here for a story.

LEMON: Yes. I want to get to this. And Lisa, I want your response because the statement tonight from Camille Cosby. She compared the allegations against Bill Cosby to the accusations of gang rape at the University of Virginia that was reported for "Rolling Stone" and now some have questioned the details about that story.

So here's what she said, she said, "Many in the media were quick to link that story to stories about my husband until that story unwound. None of us will ever want to be in the position of attacking a victim. But the question should be asked, who is the victim?"

Is she trying to say that Cosby's the real victim here, Lisa?

BLOOM: Well, she clearly is trying to say that. I think Camille Cosby, you know, might want to take a look in the mirror. I think many of us have nothing but sympathy and compassion for Camille Cosby. And let's remember that Bill Cosby is a very wealthy celebrity surrounded by attorneys and PR people.

Camille Cosby didn't just off-the-cuff issue this statement. I'm sure that behind closed doors it was decided that Camille Cosby should be the one who's going to put herself out there and make a statement.

You know, Bill Cosby is the one who should be speaking out.

If you want both sides out there, Mr. Cosby, why don't you come out and submit yourself to tough questions, either in a courtroom or by way of a journalist? I think that's what will give us truly both sides of this story.

LEMON: Do you think he'll do that, Stacy?

BROWN: I think he is. I think he and his wife are preparing to do just that.

LEMON: OK.

BROWN: I got the feeling that it's going to happen and pretty soon. I don't know who with, but it's going to happen.

LEMON: He's been responding specifically to the women who are coming out, and we're awaiting a response soon, I'm sure for Beverly Johnson's accusations as well. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you very much, Stacy Brown and Lisa, by the way, congratulations.

BLOOM: Thank you very much. LEMON: Lisa just got married. Thank you very much. When we come right

back, Oprah Winfrey, she says this is no time for a rush to judgment in the case of those stolen Hollywood e-mails. You may be surprised to hear what else she tells me. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The massive Sony pictures hack is the talk of Hollywood. Really the country, tens of thousands of e-mails never intended to see the light of day, were leaked, e-mails that include an alleged exchange between two Sony big wigs joking about President Obama's taste in movies. But who's behind the hack? What do they want? And where will they strike next? CNN's Jean Casarez has more now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is a well-orchestrated computer terror attack that now appears to include blackmail.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: They've already released salaries and budgets and scripts and private e-mails and medical records and social security numbers.

CASAREZ: For the first time Sony's lawyer says it is all part of a blackmail scheme to prevent the release of an upcoming motion picture. Attorney David Boies, who is representing the motion picture studio, sent a letter to media outlets including CNN, which suggests Sony was targeted as part of an ongoing campaign to prevent SPE, Sony Pictures Entertainment, from distributing a motion picture. That movie is The Interview, slated for release on Christmas day. The comedy starring Seth Rogen and James Franco has as its plot line the murder of North Korea's Leader, Kim Jong-un.

LIZZY CAPLAN, ACTRESS: Take him out.

SETH ROGEN, ACTOR: You want us to kill the leader of North Korea?

CAPLAN: Yes.

CASAREZ: Sony is asking anyone who has the hacked e-mails, spreadsheets, and other data to destroy it. Even though some of the information has been published and republished for over a week now.

STELTER: This is a tough one actually for journalists but, there's an important distinction to make. The journalists are not the ones hacking into Sony. That would be illegal and that would be wrong. We're only reporting on what has already been made public.

CASAREZ: The hackers say the best is yet to come. "We are preparing for you a Christmas gift. The gift will be larger quantities of data. And it will be more interesting. The gift will surely give you much more pleasure and put Sony pictures into the worst state." CNN Senior Media Correspondent Brian Stelter and the host of Reliable Sources, says the concern for any corporation being hacked to this magnitude is a chilling effect. STELTER: It creates a fear of self-censorship, that movie studios or

other companies won't go down a road because they're afraid of getting hacked in the future.

CASAREZ: Garnering some of the biggest attention, e-mails allegedly disrespecting President Obama while discussing the types of movies he would enjoy watching at a breakfast with studio executives. Sony apologized for these exchanges. Sony's Co-Chairwoman Amy Pascal, also apologized directly to Angelina Jolie after executives slammed her talent and demeanor in an e-mail. The identity of the hackers is limited at this point to the guardians of peace, who say they are attacking Sony for release of quote, "The movie of terrorism" that film is presumed to be The Interview. But mounting evidence indicates that North Korea is likely behind the hack. Many believe the media are being used to help the hackers intensify their threats. Screenwriter Aaron Sorkin, the subject of some of the leaked e-mails, says this in an op-ed to The New York Times, "The hacking group known as "The Guardians" just had to lob the ball, they knew our media would crash the boards and slam it in." New York Times editor Dean Baquet differs with Sorkin but agrees the material does not rise to the level of other more historically significant stolen government material. Andrew Wallenstein, co-editor of Variety, has his take.

ANDREW WALLENSTEIN, VARIETY CO-EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Let's not forget, people are drawing comparisons to something like Edward Snowden. This is not information that had to come out for the public good. So, I think that is a false equivalence.

CASAREZ: And with the guardians of peace threatening to drop more e- mails, executives around the country are resorting to the old school business practice of picking up the phone. Jean Casarez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Jean, thank you very much. And at the premiere last night of the blockbuster movie Selma, Oprah Winfrey talked to me about the enormous hack of CNN pictures e-mails and what she has to say may surprise you. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I have to ask you, as a producer in Hollywood, you hear what's coming out with Sony and all of that. What do you have to say about diversity? Hollywood?

OPRAH WINFREY, MEDIA PRORIETOR: What I have to say is I would hope that we would not stand in judgment, in such harsh judgment of a moment in time where somebody was hacked and their private conversations were put before the world. Because if we were to look at your computer and everybody else's computer, I try to write everything as though it's gonna show up in The New York Times. But there are things that you say in your private conversations with your friends and with your colleagues that you would not want to be broadcast on CNN. So I don't know really the context of, you know, what all those e-mails are. I have had things taken out of context that I said, and I know what it's like to have somebody hammer and hammer and hammer on something that was taken out of context. So I cannot judge the executives of that company based upon one e-mail. I would judge them on their record, for what they've done for films in the past and what they've done for black films in the past. I don't think you can make a judgment on one thing.

TYLER PERRY, ACTOR: And here's my opinion of it. I don't know if Shonda knows Amy Pascal. I don't know what was going on between the two of them. But I usually make it up --make -- my business not to comment on information that is gained illegally. But in this case I have to speak out about Amy because I've met -- I know her, if you look at her track record and her history and a history of what she's done, there's a $100 million movie coming out called Annie, with a little black girl as the star. That could not have gotten made without Amy Pascal, so I do not believe she's a racist. I think we all make stupid mistakes and say stupid things, a joke here and there. But unfortunately this all came back to haunt her. But I do not believe that she's a racist. Absolutely do not believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Alright. Joining me now to talk about all of this, Alan Dershowitz, author of Terror Tunnels, now available on e-book and also Carl Berstein, CNN political comment -- contributor and Sharon Waxman, editor-in-chief of the Wrap. And I said this is CNN pictures or Sony pictures?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You did.

LEMON: Sony pictures, at Sony pictures. You're shaking your head. Especially during the part with Tyler Perry, why is that?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, you know, this is such a hard issue. There are free speech issues on both sides. The purpose of this hacking is to prevent studios from putting out controversial movies. Imagine the next studio that wants to put out a movie critical of Islam. Those folks are not gonna just hack. They're gonna engage in violence. So we have to protect freedom of speech on that side. On the other hand, we have to protect freedom of speech of newspapers and the media that want to publish this material.

LEMOM: And Carl, Aaron Sorkin's New York Times op-ed calls on news -- calls on news outlets who publish the hacked material. He says they're morally treacherous and spectacularly dishonorable. Is he right?

CARL BERSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: I think he's right about some of the news organizations. Absolutely, that we have an idiot culture, I've written about it for a long time. With sleaze and misinformation, disinformation, manufactured controversy, gossip sensationalist is the coin of the journalistic realm too often. Nonetheless, news organizations have a right under the first amendment to publish this material. They don't have a right under the first amendment to publish this material, they don't have the right to release the movie of Annie in full and put it online. I think that is stolen property and there's a pretty -- professor Dershowitz I think will tell you that there's a copyright issue there. That the -- but in terms -- look, I've been hacked, I have the smoking gun published my -- my e-mails, I hate to say it's a terrible experience. And at the same time I'm not gonna sue the smoking gun. I think they have a right as awful as what happened there is.

LEMON: Sharon, you work for one of those news organizations. Your website the Wrap has been front and center reporting the juicy details from these hacked e-mails. Will you continue to publish more material if it's leaked?

SHARON WAXMAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF O FTHE WRAP: Yeah. I mean, we cover the business of entertainment. That is our core mandate as an entertainment news site. So this is exactly the day-to-day stuff which we cover. So it's hard for us to argue to ourselves that we shouldn't be covering it because the source of it is tainted. In other words, if someone -- we had a big conversation in our weekly news meeting, and I sort of threw it open on the table, because there's a big ick (ph) factor. We don't like the feeling of serving purposes of the people who hacked this information. At the same time, it's very hard to argue that this material is not newsworthy, especially for a site like ours. It can move markets. It may affect Sony's stock. We're a business site. We cover who gets cast in what movies and when movies get green lit. So, everything that happens in the background of a making of a movie about Steve Jobs, or just one of the initial sets of e-mails that were published, is very core to what we do. So, I think that -- I don't think the sleaze factor is what comes into this. And I wonder about David Boies sending this letter which feels more like trying to cover up something that is embarrassing for executives. And I do feel for them, and I absolutely have tried to guide our coverage by the standard of treating others as we would like to be treated if we were in that position. At the same time the things that are newsworthy we cannot ignore.

LEMON: Let's talk more Alan, about David Boies. The studio through its Attorney David Boies says that reveals that they are being treated -- threatened if they release the movie The Interview. The hackers say they'll release more. That's blackmail. Should news outlets stop reporting on this?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, it depends on how important the news is, first of all, you're absolutely right. They can't produce the film, that's a copyright protection. But what they can do is reveal the ending, or they can reveal information about the film. And if they do it they're playing right into the hands of the hackers. And I would ask myself the question do I want to encourage this kind of criminal activity? And the answer is, no. On the other hand, if there is something of crucial public interest, you probably have to disclose it. I don't agree that all this information, although it might be of interest to people in the movie business is of Pentagon papers or wiki leaks type of quality.

LEMON: And Carl, there probably isn't an employer or an employee out there who isn't thinking now that what if my e-mails were hacked and released. Does it universal use of e-mail and the threat to privacy make this newsworthy in and of itself?

BERNSTEIN: Well, this is a great news story. And we in the media including The New York Times, the Washington Post, and CNN have not done a good job covering this story yet, even the best of our news organizations. We haven't looked enough at the question of cyber security and the huge problem that we have institutionally. We haven't looked at some of the things that Aaron Sorkin raised. Why the hell has not the motion picture industry and the other studios come to the defense of Sony here and come up with a common defense? That's a big story. Why aren't we seeing that anymore?

WAXMAN: Carl, have you read The New York Times today? I mean -- Carl, Carl...

BERNSTEIN: Yes.

WAXMAN: Did you read The New York Times today?

BERNSTEIN: Today.

WAXMAN: The New York Times had a story that said exactly that the MPA has failed to...

BERNSTEIN: I said.

WAXMAN: Rally the studio chiefs. So why are you saying that the New York Times...

BERNSTEIN: Finally.

WAXMAN: Is not covering this?

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ: I think these hackers are succeeding. I don't think we're gonna see too many films like this --

LEMON: Let Carl respond and then I'll let you in. Go ahead Carl.

BERNSTEIN: Yes, first of all, it took The New York Times until today and until Aaron Sorkin's piece. It's a long time. It's been very slow. And most of the coverage has focused on the sensational, the gossip, on Amy Pascal, who is not a racist. And at the same time I understand why you might cover the story the way you have, because there is some news given how you cover the entertainment industry. But the lack of serious coverage about the real issues here is despicable.

LEMON: OK, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: And it's time that we really catch up to this story --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Hold your thought, hold your thought. Because, I have to get to a break. I promise we'll get to it on the other side of the break. Coming up, who would have thought that we'd see all this drama over a Seth Rogen comedy? We're gonna take a look at the movie behind all of this and get my guests' response, again. Coming up, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The hackers who attacked Sony Pictures may be the only ones ever to take a Seth Rogen movie seriously. And back now with me we talking about all of this, the hack attack is Alan Dershowitz, Carl Bernstein, and Sharon Waxman. So, security experts suspect that North Korea is responsible for the Sony hacking because, they're set to release a movie called The Interview in it a talk show host and his producer are asked by the CIA to Kill North Korean Leader Kim Jong-un.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPLAN: You two are going to be in a room alone with Kim, and the CIA would love it if you could take him out.

JAMES FRANCO, ACTOR: Hmm?

CAPLAN: Take him out.

FRANCO: For coffee? Dinner?

ROGEN: For Kimchi?

CAPLAN: No. Take him out.

ROGEN: You want us to kill the leader of North Korea?

CAPLAN: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So I want to show you this because -- quickly before we get to our conversation, this morning Seth Rogen spoke out about the hacking on Howard Stern, on the Howard Stern show on Sirius, in his typical Seth Rogen way. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGEN: It's stolen information. I think it's (beep) up that anyone is (beep) talking about it.

HOWARD STERN, HOWARD STERN SHOW HOST: Yes.

ROGEN: And I'm OK talking about my (beep) honestly, because I don't (beep) care that much.

STERN: Right.

ROGEN: And the stuff that was stolen from me on the grand scale of (beep) is not that bad. But it's (beep) stolen.

STERN: Can I?

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: OK. So we've been talking about whether people should be reporting it or not. Sharon, you know, Sony is really in a terrible position here. The hackers have promised more spectacular leaks. But if Sony pulls the movie now they'd be giving in to blackmail, right?

WAXMAN: They would be.

LEMON: What can they say?

WAXMAN: They would be. I mean, this is the conversation that we're having, we were put just published a story that asked the question should they pull The Interview. The problem is, is that the hackers still have control and still have the ability to strike at Sony and they have promised, as you've reported and everyone else, that there's going to be a big surprise coming at Christmas. So, the question is do they want to -- and we know that the hackers have delivered on the threats up to now. So do they want to take a chance that something terrible -- we don't know what might happen on Christmas and it might not happen? And pull -- or do they want to pull the movie? And it may not actually be their decision that may be a decision that ultimately gets made in Tokyo. This is now something that is gone all the way up to Sony headquarters. And it's clearly going to have really broad implications as Alan mentioned for all kinds of companies but certainly for movie companies going forward.

LEMON: And Alan...

WAXMAN: Is the -- I mean, I'm thinking of it as almost like a kind of corporate 9/11 here, that this is -- we're in a new era. We're in a new stage where a rogue country can strike a company without ever crossing the border and bring it to its knees.

LEMON: Is this cyber terrorism? Alan is champing at the bit to get in here. Go ahead, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: Well, it is a form of cyber blackmail, certainly. The bottom line of course is this movie is gonna be a great success. Everybody's gonna want to see this movie.

LEMON: That's right.

DERSHOWITZ: But what will happen when a company thinks about making another movie, critical of Iran, which also has cyber hackers? Or some other group that won't stop at just cyber hacking but will actually plant bombs under a building? So, the first amendment is in danger on both sides of this. It's a first amendment lawyer's nightmare.

LEMON: Let's talk a little bit more about blackmailing, because -- of course Sorkin is saying that the media is helping the hackers, who aren't just releasing embarrassing e-mails but they're also threatening Sony employees. They're saying the hackers threatened the staff writing "Your family will be in danger" I mean, does any of that change the calculation here, Carl?

BERNSTEIN: First of all, I want to ask Sharon Waxman if she really believes that Sony might withdraw all these picture. I -- certainly don't believe that there's a chance in hell that they are. Do you, Miss Waxman?

WAXMAN: How could they not -- I don't -- Sony is not telling us right now what they're considering or not considering. But, it seems that with the threat that's on the table I would think that there's at least a conversation about it. Who knows what they could be preparing? And they are threatening something far worse.

BERNSTEIN: Well, Sharon, maybe --

WAXMAN: It's a movie...

BERNSTEIN: Let me try, I'd like to try something here.

LEMON: Hang on, hang on. Hang on Carl. Maybe your best answer to the question Sharon about does this change the calculation if they're threatening employees. Does this change it? And to Carl's point. Do you think they'll actually not release this picture?

WAXMAN: Well, I'm saying I -- the question is what the conversations going on within Sony right now. I don't know the answer to that question. But I would think, given what's happened up to now and given that threats have been acted upon that there has to be at least a conversation about it.

LEMON: OK.

WAXMAN: To say that it's an impossible thing to happen, that there's absolutely no way, I don't know that that's the case. I think that we're dealing with something that is quite unprecedented here.

LEMON: Alright. Alright, Carl, go ahead. Sorry to cut you off -- right now.

BERNSTEIN: I'd like to make a journalistic suggestion here. And that is that news organizations, including the Wrap, which I read the Wrap and I think that they do some terrific stuff.

WAXMAN: Thank you.

BERNSTEIN: Start trying to find out what the investigators are learning. What the conversation is, that Sony is having with the investigators. You've got a lot of reporters out there, Sharon Waxman. Let's get them on the story. The real story is just what you're suggesting. It's not about the contents of so many of those e-mails. It's about the larger issues here. It's about whether people are endangered. What does the FBI think about the possibility of endangerment? Is it really accurate thus far to say that we know that North Korea is behind this?

LEMON: And -- I've got...

BERNSTEIN: Where is the investigation? We are --

LEMON: I've got 20...

BERNSTEIN: Have part of this part of this story... LEMON: Seconds here.

WAXMAN: I just -- my only...

(CROSSTALK)

WAXMAN: I'm happy --

LEMON: I've got 20 seconds, guys. I'm up against the clock.

WAXMAN: I'm happy to take journalistic advice from Carl Bernstein, one of my heroes and icons, all day long, but I would suggest we do have reporters doing exactly that. Please keep reading the site and you'll see that coverage.

LEMON: I didn't get the question in that I wanted. What's the difference between this and Donald Sterling? And I cannot now because everyone spoke so much. So, thank you. Thank you very much, I appreciate all of you. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)